1376 Cultural Arrogance
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 09:01:19 EDT
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango@AOL.COM>
Subject: Cultural Arrogance
Greetings,
Most of the older experienced tango dancers and milongueros from Argentina
that I have met enjoy all types of tango, including Piazzolla, many sung tangos
meant for listening or the stage, and even some alternative forms of it but
they make a distinction between the ones you dance to and the ones you listen
to. It is curious that many Americans and others on this list who have only
danced a few years (or worse, a few months) and only know Argentine culture
superficially don't make that distinction and have already decided that it is
alright to dance to anything with the same beat or to interpret steps that they
haven't even mastered yet. As if the music and tradition (not to mention the
discipline and hard work needed to dance it) were irrelevant to the development of
the dance. They talk about their love and passion for tango but are ready to
dance it to anything that has a similar beat or change it before they even
really understand it.
<<<Of course Piazzolla is tango, but I heard him say in person that
"tango is not for dancing".>>>
I like Piazzolla very much but that says more about Piazzolla than it does
about tango, just as other people's interpretations of tango and music say more
about them than the dance.
Cheers,
Charles
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 07:08:39 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Cultural Arrogance
Based on the mindset & behavior of people who promote "traditional" Argentine Tango, here in the States, I'm not really sure if that's a club I want to join...
Rick
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 14:05:56 -0500
From: Bibi Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Cultural Arrogance
I have been thinking a bit in reference to Charles's posting....
Not that I am brown-nosing anyone here, I hold high respect for the articles
here because the respective contributors are generous and enthusiastic to
share their opinions. Be the article be good or nasty, that is always
something learn from them.
In fact, isn't that how civilization was formed and flourished from the
exchange of ideas?
Although some (not neccessarily American as quoted by Charles) might not
have soaked in the tango culture physically IN Argentina for centuries, I
don't see anything wrong about:
- Someone having the humility and passion to learn more about the culture,
in lieu of satisfyingly stopping at where they are.
- Someone who offers a new angle to view the subject matter.
Without these crucial and sensitive combinations, I think we would still
believe the *earth is not round*.
Historically without tango's being exported to foreign lands where it was
being studied with new angles and passion, I wonder if the tapestry of the
tango culture would have survived till today so beautifully and in such high
social status.
Art is living and will keep evolving; it is not dead and being preserved in
a jar.
Viva tango pluralism in humility.
Bibi
Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 17:25:24 EDT
From: Charles Roques <Crrtango@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: cultural arrogance
Bibi wrote:
<<<Although some ... might not have soaked in the tango culture physically IN
Argentina for centuries, I don't see anything wrong about:
- Someone having the humility and passion to learn more about the culture,
in lieu of satisfyingly stopping at where they are.
- Someone who offers a new angle to view the subject matter.>>>
Neither do I see anything wrong with that nor should they stop where they
are. That is my point exactly - spend time learning it. But it is interesting how
much time and discipline the Argentines devote to learning tango compared to
how little our culture (or others) devotes to it before deciding that it can
be "improved." Piazzolla spent years playing and arranged for Anibal Troilo
before setting out on his own. His music is informed by traditional tango. He
knows it very well and that is where the beauty and vitality comes from - playing
against that.
The structure and form of tango is what gives it it's identity. People are
quick to condemn International and Ballroom Tango as not being authentic even
though they probably evolved from a similar need to "interpret" Argentine tango.
Cheers,
Charles
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 16:12:10 +0200
From: Peter Bengtson <peter.bengtson@MUSIKELIT.NU>
Subject: Tango Styles (was: Cultural Arrogance)
A propos Cultural Arrogance, Buenos Aires fundamentalism,
interstylistic chauvinism, etc, etc...
After having spent a fair amount of time in tango circles, it has
become evident to me that the positioning between the most common tango
styles can be pretty... what's the word I'm looking for... rigid? The
same kind of mechanism which can be seen in the field of religion seems
to be at work between the various proponents for the different styles
of tango dancing. There's a discreet little war being fought between
these factions, rather like between PC users and Macintosh users.
To illustrate this, I have - tongue planted firmly in cheek - put
together the following table. Don't we all know people who've said
these things - or maybe we've even said them ourselves...? ;-)
| |What milonguero |What salón extre- |What nuevo extre- |
| |extremists |mists say... |mists say... |
| |say... | | |
+============+=============
======+==================+==================+
|...about the|The only true |For the hoi pol- |For dodderers! A |
|milonguero |tango, danced from|loi. What happens |compensation for a|
|style |time immemorial in|when space is at |lack of body con- |
| |the milongas of |a premium. It |tact. They only |
| |Buenos Aires. |certainly isn't |like staccato mu- |
| |All else is mere |elegant. They hud-|sic recorded be- |
| |superficiality. |dle up and tip-toe|fore 1930. And why|
| |There's nothing |around with tiny |must everything |
| |like the inten- |steps, sacrificing|always be as in |
| |sity, the contact |the expression for|Buenos Aires? The |
| |and the presence |the embrace. |tango must change |
| |of tango milon- |Doesn't anybody |and adapt to new |
| |guero. Ahh...! |hug these people |times and places. |
| | |in their daily | |
| | |lives? | |
+------------+------------------+------------------+------------------+
|...about the|Elegant, perhaps, |The tango has ne- |The root of nuevo,|
|salón style |but aren't they |ver been as ele- |but they have lost|
| |really afraid of |gant and stylish |themselves in a |
| |touching each |as in the 40s. |bygone time of |
| |other? You can do |Salón is the most |tuxedos and cigar-|
| |all the figures |all-round and ex- |ette holders. We |
| |you need with full|pressive of all |do all they do in |
| |contact. All they |styles. There's |tango salón and |
| |want to do is |nothing like the |much more - in a |
| |glide around the |intensity, the |tracksuit if need |
| |hall with long |contact and the |be. And there is |
| |strides to drama- |presence of tango |a lot of music |
| |tic music like |salón. Ahh...! |from other periods|
| |Pugliese, who is | |than just the 40s.|
| |played rather spa-| | |
| |ringly in BsAs, | | |
| |anyway. | | |
+------------+------------------+------------------+------------------+
|...about the|Unmanageable exhi-|They mostly seem |Nuevo is the next |
|nuevo style |bitionists who |to want to do aw- |step in a natural |
| |kick at everything|kward, "inventive"|process of deve- |
| |in sight! Of no |figures. "Tango |lopment. The tango|
| |use whatsoever for|Lesson" has done |will die unless it|
| |social tango. And |more damage than |grows and changes |
| |they disrupt the |good. Do they sec-|- and there's more|
| |communication on |retly dream of be-|than just social |
| |the pista. Also, |coming stage dan- |tango. There's no-|
| |they only want to |cers? It's too |thing like the in-|
| |dance to impossi- |much - we don't |tensity, the con- |
| |ble music which |need all that. |tact and the pre- |
| |nobody in BsAs | |sence of tango |
| |would dance to, | |nuevo. Ahh...! |
| |like Piazzolla. | | |
| |Hrrrmph! | | |
+------------+------------------+------------------+------------------+
Maybe it's time we open our eyes and try to see things a little
differently...? Perhaps it's time to draw up a second table listing
what each style could learn from other styles. I have one, but I
thought I'd leave it as an exercise to the listeros...
/ Peter
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 19:25:45 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles (was: Cultural Arrogance)
Excellent and entertaining synthesis! Thank you, Peter. But of course it
won't satisfy anyone except we who sit somewhat on the outiside, shaking our
heads in amazement at the rigid strength of conviction in some of the
positions posted to the list.
J
----Original Message Follows----
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 14:20:11 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles (was: Cultural Arrogance)
Thanks from here too, Peter. For your clear & penetrating insights...
R
PS: God does exist? No she doesn't...Yes he does...It doesn't...
PPS: I'm a lumper polytheist
PPPS: no fair stealing fire from the gods. remember prometheus (ouch!) ??
PPPPS: Q: Why do people take an instant dislike to you? A. To save time...;o)
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 15:21:35 -0700
From: Jonathan Thornton <jnt@NOYAU.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles (was: Cultural Arrogance)
Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote on Thu, 3 Jul 2003:
>Excellent and entertaining synthesis! Thank you, Peter. But of course it
>won't satisfy anyone except we who sit somewhat on the outiside, shaking
>our heads in amazement at the rigid strength of conviction in some of the
>positions posted to the list.
Jay, and everyone on the list,
In real life there are those who adamantly insist on their opinions and
won't really listen to anyone they disagree with. Politics seems
especially to bring that out. I think though here on the list there can be
an exacerbation based on how much harder it is to express oneself clearly
in a few words, and how easy it is to misread humor or intent.
Thus I think it's important to communicate on an assumption of basic good
will and not personalize if possible. I greatly enjoyed Peter's light
hearted and humane parody. Remembering to laugh at how seriously we humans
can get about ourselves can oft be a saving grace. Humor often is helpful
and healing.
Thank you, Peter. And may we all remember to be grateful that we can
communicate and dance together, even or especially when we disagree.
peace,
Jonathan Thornton
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 21:56:35 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: communication (was Tango Styles (was: Cultural Arrogance))
I've read with interest, joy and consternation the many posts and threads in
the last few days. I realize that it's easy to type and respond to what I
read and interpret in people's writings based on what those writings evoque
in me. Sometimes posts resonate with things and situations that I've
experienced in the past and sometimes I'm really responding to those things
rather than to the post that provoked me to write....
I realize of course, that people have every right to dance anyway they see
fit to any music (or no music at all) at any given time. I'm myself guilty
of dancing in a tango manner to non-tango music from time to time. I think
it's OK for me to do it and it's obviously OK for anyone else to do the same
thing. Another subject that usually causes me to want say my piece is the
"styles" topic. Peter wrote an amusing and accurate post about it. I found
it interesting and yet something bothers me about the whole concept of
adopting a particular stance regarding things like "style". As with the
non-tango music theme, I'm also guilty of dancing in different styles at
certain times. Of course, if it's OK for me to do it, It must be OK (at
least from my point of view) for others to do it also.
I guess what I was really speaking to was not the occasional tango dance to
the BeeGees or Weird Al or whatever floats your boat. My problem with the
topic comes from years of dancing tango, going to "tango" events, and
watching people dance and enjoy (or not) Argentine tango. In my experience,
I found years ago that I was drawn to the more dramatic and lyrical tango
music. I loved to dance to the music of "Cabarute", or the Hugo Diaz
(bandoneonist) trio and of course the haunting and beautiful harmonica of
Hugo Diaz (the harmonica player). In those days I would just hate it when
they played those "old and scratchy" songs of the Golden Era of tango. I
really found it much more pleasurable to dance to my preferred alternatives.
The reason was simple in my case, I just had not learned to dance tango in a
rhythmic way. I did not know how to interpret D'Arienzo's"el flete" or
D'Agostino's "palais de glace" or Rodriguez's "el encopao". It's extremely
difficult to dance to those songs if you don't know how. It was much easier
for me to do the things that I had been taught to the more forgiving (and
equally beautiful) songs of the modern orchestras or even to some Pugliese.
I might be mistaken but I cannot help but to compare what I read in some
posts to what I myself have experienced and felt through my tango life. If I
mistakenly (and unintentionally) insulted anyone, I hereby apologize from
the bottom of my heart.
What makes me sometimes respond with too much indignation to some opinions
is that I just hate to see people stagnating and struggling with the tango.
I also struggled for quite some time before I finally figured out the real
(to my estimation) tango. There is nothing quite like dancing to those old
tangos in the way they are meant to be danced. Nothing feels quite like
great feeling that comes from "llevar el compas". This to me is just
fabulous and I wish that more people would experience it. I guess I think
that because some folks talk like I used to feel, I (perhaps erroneously)
think that they are in the same place I was before I really discovered
tango. I want to shake them up and tell them "hey, look tango is really,
really good. You must try it this way, you'll love it". Unfortunately people
just get defensive and instead of doing good, I end up instigating endless
polemic.
Also, I've seen and experienced the horrible results of poorly DJ'd milongas
and watched people do horrible things on the dance floor. I'm not talking
about experienced dancers who can and do dance in a variety of styles. I
have no problem with ganchos, boleos ,sacadas, colgadas or any other moves
or steps per se. Again, I am guilty of doing those things myself at various
times. What distresses me is watching developing tango communities with
newcomers to tango, wasting their time with steps they cannot do to the
non-tango music, or trying to dance at milongas with music that just does
not inspire me. In these occasions I feel like saying "please, dance tango,
play tango music, please don't do this..." Instead, I keep quiet, bite my
tongue and later vent my frustration when some innocent soul proclaims their
pleasure or dancing tango to "when the levee breaks" or "stairway to heaven"
or what have you... ;-)
I hope this gives some of you an idea of where I'm really coming from. I
apologize if I've insulted anyone. It was totally unintentional. Still, to
me and in my humble opinion, the tango is best danced close to your partner,
with soul and heart and "llevando el compas". For that, there is no music
like the golden era tango music. I love to dance, but I also love to play
the music. At the milongas I DJ, you'll hear 85% golden era tango music of
the danceable kind and the 15% will be good salsa breaks or a little
merengue and the occasional "Bajofondo" or "Gotan" or some Piazzolla at the
end of the night.
Pleasant tangos to all,
Manuel
Date: Thu, 3 Jul 2003 19:20:12 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles (was: Cultural Arrogance)
For me, 0% Golden Age music works the best, right now. Listening to more of it or have people try to explain what its about, will probably send it into negative numbers. I'd settle for 33% GA, 33% modern & 33% alternative/non-tango music. If someone can somehow fix the sound/fidelity problems of the Golden Age, so that it sounds as beautiful as it did & can properly fill a ballroom, I'm there.
Crowded dance floors? No thanks. Its just not fun or enjoyable to me & is very distracting & a nuisance, for me & my partners. I dance in the middle anyway, not that around the floor thing. I don't draw energy from a crowd, its drains it.
I have no issue with the tables & chairs going either, to make more room for the dancers. Chairs lined up against the wall work fine for me.
These are my true feelings/thoughts.
R
PS: Don't forget, I'm a lumper.
Date: Sat, 5 Jul 2003 01:29:38 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles (was: Cultural Arrogance)
For me, 0% Golden Age music works the best, right now. Listening to more
of it or have people try to explain what its about, will probably send it
into negative numbers. I'd settle for 33% GA, 33% modern & 33%
alternative/non-tango music. >
> Crowded dance floors? No thanks. Its just not fun or enjoyable to me & is
very distracting & a nuisance, for me & my partners. I dance in the middle
anyway, not that around the floor thing. I don't draw energy from a crowd,
its drains it.
>
> These are my true feelings/thoughts.
> R
>
I see. May I suggest, that, after the recent developments on tango-l, we
can now divide tango into five styles: tango milonguero, tango salon, tango
fantasia, tango nuevo and tango punk ?
; )
Astrid
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 10:45:37 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles (was: Cultural Arrogance)
Hmmm...let's see..Tango Techno, Tango New Wave, Tango Rock, Tango SpeedMetal, Tango AcidRock, Tango Bubblegum, Tango Soul, Tango Folk, Tango Blues, Tango R&B, Tango Astrid
;p
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 11:02:57 -0700
From: Elemer Dubrovay <dubrovay@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles (was: Cultural Arrogance)
You forgot in your list the Tango Disco; we "my wife and myself" were
dancing Disco music with tango steps back in the late 70s, we had no idea
that we where dancing tango, we thought that we where dancing disco using
tango steps.
Elemer in Redmond
On Fri, 4 Jul 2003 10:45:37 -0700 Rick FromPortland
<pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM> writes:
> Hmmm...let's see..Tango Techno, Tango New Wave, Tango Rock, Tango
> SpeedMetal, Tango AcidRock, Tango Bubblegum, Tango Soul, Tango Folk,
> Tango Blues, Tango R&B, Tango Astrid
> ;p
>
>
>
>
Date: Fri, 4 Jul 2003 20:25:56 +0100
From: Guy Williams <guyzen@FREEUK.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles (was: Cultural Arrogance)
Not only but also Tango Trance, Tango Robotic, Tango Minimalism, Tango
Ballet, Be Bop Tango, Heavy Metal Tango, Tango Surreale(requires a lobster
for a partner) Tango Avante Garde, Om Mani Tango Hum, It Tango
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, July 04, 2003 6:45 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango Styles (was: Cultural Arrogance)
> Hmmm...let's see..Tango Techno, Tango New Wave, Tango Rock, Tango
SpeedMetal, Tango AcidRock, Tango Bubblegum, Tango Soul, Tango Folk, Tango
Blues, Tango R&B, Tango Astrid
> ;p
>
>
>
>
