4396 Definition of Social Dancing
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 16:24:12 -0400
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Definition of Social Dancing
To: tango-l@mit.edu
It just simply means non-stage tango, in other words, milongas. Milongas, by
definition means social gathering of tango dancers.
Partisan, non-partisan, tomato, tomahto. A list of festivals is just a list
of festivals, asterisks or not. You want to know more about a particular
festival? Go google it.
You want to know if Robin is dj-ing? Go ask him. Surely he must have a
schedule that you can take a peek at.
Sometimes I wonder if some people just like making simple things
complicated.
Caroline
Lending Features https://spring.finance.sympatico.msn.ca/
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 16:54:41 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Definition of Social Dancing
To: runcarolinerun@hotmail.com, tango-l@mit.edu
I've been in the tango scene for many years and I've never been to any
"festival" or milonga dedicated to stage dancing. I think it's disingenous
at best to label some milongas or tango events as "social" and not others.
It's like saying here is a list of people, those with asterisks next to them
are really nice and welcome social dancing, there are also others......
I know that there are some milongas usually populated by few inexperienced
dancers, where the LOD is not strictly followed and the style of dance could
be called "stage dancing". These are places where there are no experienced
teachers and the people simply don't know how to make milongas, etc. From my
experience of all the tango events I've attended all over the world, there
are no "stage tango" or non-social milongas. All the festivals or milongas
I've ever been to were events where people danced (or tried to dance)
socially to tango music (except for the alternative milongas where non-tango
muisc is played).
Regards,
Manuel
>From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
>To: tango-l@mit.edu
>Subject: [Tango-L] Definition of Social Dancing
>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 16:24:12 -0400
>
>It just simply means non-stage tango, in other words, milongas. Milongas,
>by definition means social gathering of tango dancers.
>
>Partisan, non-partisan, tomato, tomahto. A list of festivals is just a list
>of festivals, asterisks or not. You want to know more about a particular
>festival? Go google it.
>
>You want to know if Robin is dj-ing? Go ask him. Surely he must have a
>schedule that you can take a peek at.
>
>Sometimes I wonder if some people just like making simple things
>complicated.
>
>Caroline
>
>Spring Lending Features https://spring.finance.sympatico.msn.ca/
>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:26:30 EDT
From: Euroking@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Definition of Social Dancing
To: white95r@hotmail.com, runcarolinerun@hotmail.com, tango-l@mit.edu
I guess there is extra ammunition out there because people seem to be quick
to shoot the messenger, or confuse the point.
Stephen said "My identification of festivals known for emphasizing social
dancing was
simply intended to refer to those festivals that emphasize milongas over
classes--as is underscored by the heavy reliance on instructors who lack
performance credentials to lift them to prominence, (Some of the nuevo
and nuevo-milonguero festivals don't neatly fit such classification.) Of
course, the people organizing the events that emphasize affordable dancing
over instruction are marketing their events as being for social dancing. "
Maybe I read this wrong, but I did not see a attempt to generally divide
festivals between social and stage, but to delineate between those that had more
concentration on the dancing rather than the teaching/workshop side. Nothing
more.
I view Stephen's list as just that a list and a valuable service. I don't
view it as an authorative judgement on quality, nor do I view it as a marketing
effort on his part. Marketing is in the hands of the organizer. So thank
you Stephen.
Just some thoughts,
Bill in Seattle
In a message dated 6/15/2006 1:55:37 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
white95r@hotmail.com writes:
I've been in the tango scene for many years and I've never been to any
"festival" or milonga dedicated to stage dancing. I think it's disingenous
at best to label some milongas or tango events as "social" and not others.
It's like saying here is a list of people, those with asterisks next to them
are really nice and welcome social dancing, there are also others......
I know that there are some milongas usually populated by few inexperienced
dancers, where the LOD is not strictly followed and the style of dance could
be called "stage dancing". These are places where there are no experienced
teachers and the people simply don't know how to make milongas, etc. From my
experience of all the tango events I've attended all over the world, there
are no "stage tango" or non-social milongas. All the festivals or milongas
I've ever been to were events where people danced (or tried to dance)
socially to tango music (except for the alternative milongas where non-tango
muisc is played).
Regards,
Manuel
>From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
>To: tango-l@mit.edu
>Subject: [Tango-L] Definition of Social Dancing
>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 16:24:12 -0400
>
>It just simply means non-stage tango, in other words, milongas. Milongas,
>by definition means social gathering of tango dancers.
>
>Partisan, non-partisan, tomato, tomahto. A list of festivals is just a list
>of festivals, asterisks or not. You want to know more about a particular
>festival? Go google it.
>
>You want to know if Robin is dj-ing? Go ask him. Surely he must have a
>schedule that you can take a peek at.
>
>Sometimes I wonder if some people just like making simple things
>complicated.
>
>Caroline
>
>Find out more about Canada?s Real Estate Outlook in Sympatico / MSN?s
>Spring Lending Features https://spring.finance.sympatico.msn.ca/
>
>Tango-L mailing list
Tango-L mailing list
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 15:36:09 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Definition of Social Dancing
To: <tango-l@MIT.EDU>
Thank you, Stephen and Bill, for clarification!
Now I understand that festivals are divided in Social and Learning, right!
Not social and stage, but social and learning, of course !
I would expect from a good social festival emphasis on Milongas. I would
expect abundance of good dancers, formation of good dancing floor, and
presence of experienced DJs who can make it good for everyone: socializing,
personal trance, exchange of ideas, or highest-technique dancers. Teachers?
This festivals could survive without them, but good performance always makes
the axis of the rotation, and inspiring workshops generate new ideas and
drive. Teachers compete to participate in these festivals: here they make
their Names.
The major goal of travel to this festival: meeting great dancers, learning
and exchange of ideas on the floor.
Learning festivals are probably the beginning of social festivals. They just
build local community, universal, around a teacher, or dedicated to a
particular style. These are either true local events, or they make emphasis
on great Masters of the dance. These festivals depend on teachers and their
Names.
The major goal of travel to this festivals: learning from teachers. There
are less good dancers, which might not be a bad idea for a traveling
aficionado!
What else?
Igor.
PS. Stephen, You should call your asterisks: "* - festivals what Stephen
Brown consider the best". And nobody could complain. I think it is a
perfectly good idea.
PPS: And there is such thing: Festival Spirit..
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 18:40:40 -0500
From: Stephen.P.Brown@dal.frb.org
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Definition of Social Dancing
Igor is right that *s indicating the festivals I like the best would be
unassailable because I am the expert of my own opinion, or at least have a
reasonable claim to be. If I were to use such a criterion, the assignment
of the *s would change from those listed yesterday.
Not having attended or planning to attend all 40+ festivals in North
America this year, my list of favorite festivals wouldn't be a very
comprehensive survey. Maybe others on this list should discuss the
attributes they like in festivals and how the various festivals might
stack up against their criteria.
If we work with the delineation has Igor has set it out separating dancing
festivals from teaching festivals, we do get considerable power of
discenment.
For dancing festivals, the attraction is in the opportunity to dance with
lots of other great dancers and in avoiding paying the registration fees
necessary to pay for big-name instructors. Some festivals have grown
quite large because the organizers have done a good job of catering to
those who just want to dance by keeping the instructional fees down. Maybe
there are more good dancers at dancing festivals, but some of those
attending may simply be complacent in developing their skills.
For teaching festivals, the attractiion is the opportunity to learn from
the biggest-name instructors. Because these festivals have higher
registration fees, most of those attending will concentrate their efforts
on dancing rather than the milongas. If the festival offers a beginner
track, many beginners are likely to attend. At one such festival I
attended a few years back, people actually ditched some of the milongas
because they were too tired from taking classes during the day. There
might be more beginners at a teaching festival, but you can be assured
that those attending are working to improve their skills.
With best wishes,
Steve
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 19:45:57 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Definition of Social Dancing
To: ipolk@virtuar.com, tango-l@MIT.EDU
Hi Igor,
You might be surprised about how good the dancers are who seek more teaching
by the masters. I think it's wrong to say that festivals that de-emphasize
teaching are per force the festivals where the best dancers go. I've been to
both types of festivals and I can assure you that there are plenty of
not-so-good dancers at the festivals where the teaching is de-emphasized.
It's shame really, the very people who disdain the classes are most often
those who should take them. I think that it's very nice to put more work and
attention on the milongas, but I don't agree that having great teachers will
automatically lower the level of dancing. That's just plain wrong.
I know that some festivals get a good share of beginner level dancers.
Perhaps more than experienced dancers, but that's not related to the
presence or absence of big name masters. Next time you go to one of these
"no-teacher" festivals, make an honest assessment of the quality of all the
dancers. You'll probably find that there are many that have only a beginner
level of skill. This is not to insult or criticize them. After all, they
probably are new to tango.
Also, many apilado style dancers stay away in droves from workshops where
salon tango is taught by masters. The material taught requires a lot more
body control and skill than the apilado style requires. A guy or woman who's
been dancing 6,7 or 10 years and can only dance apilado does not like to
look like a bumbling beginner in an intermediate or advanced class taught by
someone like Gustavo Naveira.
Regards,
Manuel
visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com
>From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
>To: <tango-l@MIT.EDU>
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Definition of Social Dancing
>Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 15:36:09 -0700
>
>Thank you, Stephen and Bill, for clarification!
>
>Now I understand that festivals are divided in Social and Learning, right!
>
>Not social and stage, but social and learning, of course !
>
>I would expect from a good social festival emphasis on Milongas. I would
>expect abundance of good dancers, formation of good dancing floor, and
>presence of experienced DJs who can make it good for everyone: socializing,
>personal trance, exchange of ideas, or highest-technique dancers. Teachers?
>This festivals could survive without them, but good performance always
>makes
>the axis of the rotation, and inspiring workshops generate new ideas and
>drive. Teachers compete to participate in these festivals: here they make
>their Names.
>
>The major goal of travel to this festival: meeting great dancers, learning
>and exchange of ideas on the floor.
>
>Learning festivals are probably the beginning of social festivals. They
>just
>build local community, universal, around a teacher, or dedicated to a
>particular style. These are either true local events, or they make emphasis
>on great Masters of the dance. These festivals depend on teachers and their
>Names.
>
>The major goal of travel to this festivals: learning from teachers. There
>are less good dancers, which might not be a bad idea for a traveling
>aficionado!
>
>What else?
>Igor.
>
>PS. Stephen, You should call your asterisks: "* - festivals what Stephen
>Brown consider the best". And nobody could complain. I think it is a
>perfectly good idea.
>
>PPS: And there is such thing: Festival Spirit..
>
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 17:32:45 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Definition of Social Dancing
To: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
You are right, Manuel, but you look at it from a little different angle.
The festivals with Masters and a lot of good dancers fall in the Social
Category.
It is not the presence or absence of Masters makes the festivals social or
teaching. The more better Masters is always better. I mean Masters Who
Teach.
It is the average level of participants independently of the style what
defines the level of a festival. Every style has its Grand Masters of
Dancing - Who do NOT Teach. They dance only. And particularly their presence
defines the level of the festival. May be not exactly in the sense of
social-vs-teaching.
In your message I still see the attempt to divide festivals into styles. I
can not go into details too much, just some thoughts:
Each style including close embrace: Apilado, Milonguero, Salon Close
Embrace, or Nuevo Close Embrace ( these are all different to me ) has its
masters. Artistry in close embrace is mostly invisible.
I would say that there are Social Masters who are Masters of this Invisible
Dance. In social dancing, that what counts most - feeling and
micro-technique which can mostly be evaluated on one-to-one level. (Woops,
did I say something? )
Hmm..I would say exactly the same for open embrace social dancing. It is
quite invisible in open too!
Can it lead to anther thought?
Like this:
Social festivals emphasize dancing for feeling. In open or close. That is
what you can do on the crowded floor - no space is required.
Well, it goes too far away... I do not want to go there. It is not the
direction of social vs teaching, it is the direction of dividing in
accordance with a dancing style. I do believe too, that every style is
social as soon as it is large enough gathering of participants. Or, may be I
force myself to it?
Or may be social is something totally different: a simple dance.
A simple dance? What the....
I like it!
* * *
It is much easier for me to give a definition who is a Social Dancing
Master.
It is the one who can dance every beginner or intermediate into a great
dance!
Give them a Tango Moment.
Igor Polk
Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2006 21:56:59 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Definition of Social Dancing
To: <tango-l@MIT.EDU>
Ok, everyone is dancing...
So, let me to continue.
It is useless trying to define what is social dancing without answering in
what society.
If you gather such dancers like Gavito and Graciela Gonzales, Gustavo
Naveira and Susana Miller, Juan Bruno and Martha Anton, and they would just
start dancing for fun, for themselves, one would probably only imagine what
a great dancing it would be!
And that would be social dancing for this particular circuit!
( :) Sorry, the next is serious..)
Social dancing should be thinking of on a broader scale. Social dancing is a
very significant part of society. Well, at least it used to be.
I know one gentlemen from Ireland. He is about 90. I asked him: "What did
you do in your spare time when you was young"? "We were dancing" - was the
answer, "at least 5 days a week. Mostly foxtrot and tango."
Dancing was part of social life. Inseparable. That is where youngs were
looking for the man and the woman, where people talked, meet each other.
They did it for fun at their private parties. What a party without dancing!
They did not dance complex patterns - it was not a major goal of dancing,
the dance was simple.
They felt the drive to learn it! There were no teachers needed. My mom
learned dancing herself when she was a girl. Facing the fireplace she was
starting making her vals steps.
But they knew what a good dance is. My uncle remembers: "It is so nice to
dance with a good dancer.
It is SO PLEASANT."
What my father did in his forgotten corner of Russian countryside? They
danced! All long Russian winter nights.
No electricy, got to worm up the soul...
People at dances danced what? Vals, foxtrot and tango. Sometimes polka and
such. It depends on the place. When I was a boy we did not know that. We
knew only "slow dance" and "fast dance". Only someone knew vals. Our slow
dance was "monkey dance". But that was social dancing since it happened
often, spontaneously. Close, open - who cared. Only the couple.
It was originated by society itself. It was not a fruit of efforts of some
teachers and organizers. It had social basis.
Come to a night dancing club - that is social dance now. Sorry, no couple
dancing. Very loud music, hypnotizing light effects: the world is not quite
the same as it was 100-50 years ago.
So, the dance was born within people, by people, and for people dancing it.
Argentina was such a place where the average level of dancing ( 100-50 years
ago ) was very high. Somehow it was able to be preserved and improved.
Because that was a part of social life! So, those who say that the way
argentineans dance is social are probably right. But if you plant it on the
other ground will it bloom the same way on the different soil? May be tango
outside of Argentina forever doomed to be not social. I do not think so. It
was. It is doubtful to expect the same level of social dancing from
foreigners, but it existed. It was social phenomena, and it was social
dancing.
We do not have social tango now. Why? There is no wide social basis. It
looks like it goes for Argentina too. Will it change? Will see.
Igor Polk.
Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2006 15:48:05 -0600
From: Paul Akmajian & Karen Reck <paulnkaren@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Definition of Social Dancing
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
This reply is from Karen:
Complacency can be found in many places. I'd suspect most of us have
attended classes by big-name or smaller-name instructors where at least a
few students are there primarily to pick up "hot new steps" without
recognizing that their skills are not up to it (they are complacent about
their basic skills level).
I'd consider Denver & Atlanta to be "dancing festivals" but can't recall any
dearth of dancers in classes at either event. (Extreme) case in point: Eric
Jorissen's classes in Denver this past Memorial Day weekend, where about 100
dancers per class were not complacent in developing their skills. Yes, Eric
could hold the attention of students & have everyone working in these large
classes.
That many of these classes are taught by the U.S. "prot?g?s" of Susana
Miller is far from a negative in my eyes. (And hey, it's not just noodlin'
anymore! It never was.)
Maybe there are fewer classes offered overall at the "dancing festivals" but
there are definitely dancers taking classes, as well as dancing until dawn
(well, not me) whenever possible. After all what's the point of working on
your skills if not to exercise them?
Some of the newer & more economical festivals (Stone Soup, San Francisco
Tango X-change & others) offer ample opportunity to develop skills, perhaps
in more of a practica/exchange environment than only in "traditional"
classes... good for them!
Karen Reck
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Stephen Brown wrote:
> For dancing festivals, the attraction is in the opportunity to dance with lots
> of other great dancers and in avoiding paying the registration fees necessary
> to pay for big-name instructors. Some festivals have grown quite large
> because the organizers have done a good job of catering to those who just want
> to dance by keeping the instructional fees down. Maybe there are more good
> dancers at dancing festivals, but some of those attending may simply be
> complacent in developing their skills.
