5631  The demise of Tango

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 06:35:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: sopelote@yahoo.com
Subject: [Tango-L] The demise of Tango
To: tango-l@mit.edu


"And any "connection advantage" that a porte?o has from his understanding
of traditional Tango music, the lyrics, the cultural context, etc., is
negated when one is talking about nuevo tango music, much of which is
mediocre techno pop with bandoneon added."? - Shankarah

I took up playing Flamenco guitar in the sixties. The 'Golden Age' of
Flamenco had lasted into the early Fifties and was already heading somewhere else...I watched that beautiful and profound/feeling music slowly but steadily degrade from an in-home and neighborhood product (la juerga) into something staged strictly for it's look and entertainment.
Anyone, championing the old, golden-age form of the song and dance was to
be sadly disappointed as it disappeared from the culture. Today, we have
the 'Gypsy Kings' and if you enjoy their music, you too, are part of the
demise of a music that once easily brought tears to one's eyes.
Why should the 'progression' of tango be any different than that of Flamenco? On every side we hear champions of 'progress' and 'alternatives'.
Trying to postpone what seems to be the inevitable will be like trying to woo children from ice cream back to good salads. In my opinion we need a revolution in the 'teaching' industry...We need more teachers who have risen from the ranks of the Milongas of BsAs..Milongueros who dance every night if possible. Somehow, they will have to also don the hat of a 'teacher' too and they will have to do it for the love of the art not just the moohlah $$$...this is a lot to ask. Say goodbye to Tango as we knew it..say hello to the new Gypsy Kings.

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 11:10:36 -0500
From: Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The demise of Tango
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<cff24c340904270910u53e5cec4s788d51175b6ddd4b@mail.gmail.com>

I don't know about flamenco, but there is a lot of truth in this post.

Outside Argentina, nuevo is rapidly becoming the de facto standard of
dancing at events advertised as 'milongas'. Non-tango music (including
'tango fusion') is becoming a standard part of the music played at
these events, even becoming the predominnt form of music at some
events labeled (or even not labeled) as 'alternative milongas'. In
Buenos Aires, except for a handful of venues (catering heavily to the
influx of dollars, euros, pounds, and yen) where nuevo and
alternatives to tango music are played for using 'steps' associated
with exhibition forms which have evolved (with non-tango influences)
from Tango de Salon, this does not exist. Instead, there are over 100
milongas per week where only classic tango music is played for dancing
tango and dancers dance some variation of Tango de Salon. The primary
exception to this as a general rule is that one will occasionally see
some tourists and Argentine instructors who cater to tourists who use
some exhibition moves that violate the codes of the milonga (keep feet
on the floor, respect the line of dance and space fo others on the
floor).

Yes, it is true that there are still milongas outside Argentina where
social tango dancing predominates and classic tango music is played.
However, over the last 2-3 years the trend has been towards more and
more exhibitions elements and non-tango music outside Argentina, such
that the Martian anthropologist would not recognize the milonga in
Buenos Aires and the events called 'milongas' outside Argentina as
sharing a common cultural heritage.

Whether this continues to the point that it will be necessary to hire
a detective to find traditional tango de salon and classic tango music
outside Argentine remains to be seen. Some have suggested to me that
this trend represents something only characteristic of the US MIdwest
(although some of my tango contacts familiar with the tango scene in
Europe have reported the same). In contrast, several people have
reported that the West Coast US is returning to social tango after a
short (and perhaps unfulfilling) romance with nuevo.

The problem with transmitting tango culture accurately to other
cultures is that other cultures have different preconceptions
regarding expression in dancing. 'Dancing with the Stars' in the US
and similar television programs in other countries reflect the
cultural value that good dancing is mastery of steps, often with
athletic qualities. Dancing is exhibition, showing off to the audience
that you have acquired physical skills. Nuevo readily satisfies these
preconceptions. Nothing could be further from the essence of Tango de
Salon, which focuses on the interpersonal connection of man and woman
in the embrace and their connection together with the music.

Teaching Tango de Salon outside Argentina is difficult. It does not
meet our cultural expectations regarding dance. So Tango de Salon may
become an endangered species outside Argentina. However, dancing in a
maintained close embrace and maintaining a connection with partner and
tango music is something that has lasted over 100 years in Argentina
and is likely to persist for some time to come. Maybe soon it will
become necessary to travel to Buenos Aires as the only way to
experience these pleasures of tango.

Ron


On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 8:35 AM, <sopelote@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> "And any "connection advantage" that a porte?o has from his understanding
> of traditional Tango music, the lyrics, the cultural context, etc., is
> negated when one is talking about nuevo tango music, much of which is
> mediocre techno pop with bandoneon added."? - Shankarah
>
> ?I took up playing Flamenco guitar in the sixties. The 'Golden Age' of
> Flamenco had lasted into the early Fifties and was already heading somewhere else...I watched that beautiful and profound/feeling music slowly but steadily degrade from an in-home and neighborhood product (la juerga) into something staged strictly for it's look and entertainment.
> Anyone, championing the old, golden-age form of the song and dance was to
> be sadly disappointed as it disappeared from the culture. Today, we have
> the 'Gypsy Kings' and if you enjoy their music, you too, are part of the
> demise of a music that once easily brought tears to one's eyes.
> ?Why should the 'progression' of tango be any different than that of Flamenco? On every side we hear champions of 'progress' and 'alternatives'.
> Trying to postpone what seems to be the inevitable will be like trying to woo children from ice cream back to good salads. In my opinion we need a revolution in the 'teaching' industry...We need more teachers who have risen from the ranks of the Milongas of BsAs..Milongueros who dance every night if possible. Somehow, they will have to also don the hat of a 'teacher' too and they will have to do it for the love of the art not just the moohlah $$$...this is a lot to ask. Say goodbye to Tango as we knew it..say hello to the new Gypsy Kings.

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 10:48:03 -0600
From: David Thorn <thorn-inside@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The demise of Tango
To: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>


Ron wrote:

>> Outside Argentina, nuevo is rapidly becoming the de facto standard of
>> dancing at events advertised as 'milongas'. Non-tango music (including
>> 'tango fusion') is becoming a standard part of the music played at
>> these events, even becoming the predominnt form of music at some
>> events labeled (or even not labeled) as 'alternative milongas'.

>> true that there are still milongas outside Argentina where
>> social tango dancing predominates and classic tango music is played.

Actually, Ron, it is far worse than you might imagine. There are a large number of nuevo tango dancers
who despise the neo-tango and electronic tango music. They by far prefer dancing to real, traditional,
tango music. Preferring the music played at authentic milongas, those dancers invade the sanctity of
the dance floor and, space permitting, perform all sorts of wild gyrations right there in plain sight of
their putative elders.

What's more, these dancers are generally younger and fitter than most of us old farts, and both the
men AND THE WOMEN think that they are dancing "socially" with each other, with everything strictly
improvised lead-follow, when in fact they are clearly trying out for the circus. OMG!!!!!

I think that the only solution is bouncers! I have heard that they kick
people out of the Authentic milongas in BsAs if they are misbehaving.
Authenticity is the US will certainly be enhanced by having bouncers.

Regards,

D. David Thorn

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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 12:59:24 EDT
From: Crrtango@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The demise of Tango
To: tango.society@gmail.com, TANGO-L@mit.edu

Ron,

Very well said. I recently moved to the midwest from New York City and
nuevo seems to proliferate more here (it was also becoming common there too),
although many "seem" to profess an interest in classic tango, and I have
seen a number of people dancing tango de salon, but even then it is often mixed
with volcadas and colgadas and other moves that create bottlenecks on the
floor. I think another problem is that most people really aren't prepared
to put in the necessary hard work to get the fundamentals, including most of
the teachers. They get bored with the hard work and practice. They just drop
out and find someone who will give them more immediate gratification with
tricky and superfically appealing steps. Most people out here don't take
regular classes over a period of time. Instead they are "Festival Rats" and
just go from one festival to another picking up yet another variation and
fancy figure, and taking privates is a way of life out here. (I used to question
how so many festivals could survive, but now I know why.) Their reference
point just keeps constantly changing depending on the last guest teacher.
Many people I have seen have very bad technical skills but are very athletic
and know lots of steps. It is much easier to jump into nuevo figures to gain
the illusion that one is dancing well. Maybe they should change the name
(referring to the males anyway) to "Baggy-Cargo-Pants-and-Sneaker Jamborees"

But it is also culture. Maybe our country is too bountiful and lacks the
requisite melancholy.

cheers,
Charles



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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 17:38:16 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The demise of Tango
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>








Generalizing from a limited geographical exposure can be highly inaccurate. Here in Portland we have a dozen milongas every week, and all but one of them play exclusively Golden Age tango. I've seen no suggestion that we won't continue that tradition. We do also have a growing contingent of "nuevo" dancers, mostly young, but most of them are well-behaved and there are only a couple that have such poor floorcraft that you have to constantly pay attention to them when they're in your vicinity.

J

P.S. "Baggy-cargo-pant-and-sneaker-jamboree" Very cute, Charles. I'll try to use that line at one of the afternoon alternative milongas at the next Portland festival in October. Speaking of which, the 4 or 5 evening milongas, with 300 - 500 in attendance, are strictly Golden Age tango. Don't see any demise here. Detente, perhaps.


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Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 14:19:19 -0400
From: Sergey Kazachenko <syarzhuk@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The demise of Tango
To: David Thorn <thorn-inside@hotmail.com>
Cc: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>
<ebb7980c0904271119l399a0c14u31e6dce348d74d67@mail.gmail.com>

Bouncers have too much discretion. We should create an official
rulebook and have referees enforce it, football-style. Two linesmen
and one chief referee who will be in the center of the dancefloor,
watching everybody. If there is a minor violation, the offenders will
be stopped, and walked off the LOD until the next song or even tanda
is played. If there is a not-so-minor violation, the offender will be
cautioned by a yellow card. Second yellow card or a major violation
will result in a red card and expulsion for the rest of the night. Any
event that calls itself a traditional milonga will have to comply with
all the rules in the rulebook. Only then it could display the much
sought title of "a milonga sanctioned by tango-l mailing list".

Sergey

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 12:48 PM, David Thorn <thorn-inside@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Authenticity is the US will certainly be enhanced by having bouncers.

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 22:52:37 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The demise of Tango
To: Crrtango@aol.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu, tango.society@gmail.com

Crrtango@aol.com wrote:

> Ron,
>
> Very well said. I recently moved to the midwest from New York City and
> nuevo seems to proliferate more here (it was also becoming common there too),
> although many "seem" to profess an interest in classic tango, and I have
> seen a number of people dancing tango de salon, but even then it is often mixed
> with volcadas and colgadas and other moves that create bottlenecks

Volcadas and colgadas *need* not create bottlenecks.

Unless you let them, i.e. if you aren't mindful of the environment.

There's no need to emphatically pause for them (or to create *huge* tilts
in a volcada or colgada), and there's no need for the woman to let the
non-supporting leg wander where it should not during a volcada. You can
do these kinds of figures in a way that makes them a split second
surprise that makes everyone wonder whether they really happened
a secondf later, and not disturb the floor.

There's certainly no need to invade the space *behind*
you when you want to express yourself (know where to face for something you
want to do and you'll avoid lots of issues. If you aren't facing the right way,
then delay your plans and navigate until you are, or abandon that plan). And
yes, the right way may not be using the orientation you were taught in classes.
Tough luck.

The same general principle - mindfulness of the context - holds for boleos.

They can be followed with feet close to each other (yes, you don't *have*
to separate them; the important thing is the dissociation of the
upper body and the legs and the rotation. If you think "foot" and act "foot",
then you can be darn sure it's an ugly boleo), and they can be gentle.

You don't *always* have to act as if the leader were the Grim Reaper
with the follower as his Scythe (and the rest of the crowded floor
as the victims).

I think that's often not well taught. Some teachers like to teach
showy moves to please the audience, but forget to tell people that
actors on a stage shouldn't CONSTANTLY BE SHOUTING, and that some things
can also be whispered, and that some moves need not *always* be
showy.

*In general* I like to keep things like bolas, volcadas and
colgadas less dramatic even when there *is* room - at least most
of the time.

Dramatic embellishments are like salt: add too much
and you're left with an unpalatable mess.

And I even think that's true when I see dancers perform on stage:
I have lot more admiration for musicality and a dance that breathes
its own breath and weaves it into the music than for high BPS
(boleos per second) ratings.

Some stage performers make me wonder whether I'm supposed to hold up
a cardboard with "10" for technical merit (and "0" for artistic
merit) as an ice skating competition judge.

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 09:47:29 +1000
From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The demise of Tango
To: Sergey Kazachenko <syarzhuk@gmail.com>
Cc: David Thorn <thorn-inside@hotmail.com>, tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>
<cb8208d0904271647x7bac2aa8i9fb738c7f266c78@mail.gmail.com>

Hell, whilst we are at it, why don't we regulate dinner...
Conversations... other 'social' activities like, say, swimming in the
ocean, walking for fitness - wrong clothes, wrong street to walk, just
ocean/sea/lake/river/stream - wrong wrong wrong...

.... or...

Embrace what you love, do and dance...
Leave others alone...
Improve in yourself and your abilities and skills to protect your partner...

Dance....





2009/4/28 Sergey Kazachenko <syarzhuk@gmail.com>:

> Bouncers have too much discretion. We should create an official
> rulebook and have referees enforce it, football-style. Two linesmen
> and one chief referee who will be in the center of the dancefloor,
> watching everybody. If there is a minor violation, the offenders will
> be stopped, and walked off the LOD until the next song or even tanda
> is played. If there is a not-so-minor violation, the offender will be
> cautioned by a yellow card. Second yellow card or a major violation
> will result in a red card and expulsion for the rest of the night. Any
> event that calls itself a traditional milonga will have to comply with
> all the rules in the rulebook. Only then it could display the much
> sought title of "a milonga sanctioned by tango-l mailing list".

>

Date: Mon, 27 Apr 2009 16:58:22 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <tempehuck@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The demise of Tango
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ecf43f370904271658g5ae440d4i14e35198a70504bb@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 4:47 PM, Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> Hell, whilst we are at it, why don't we regulate dinner...

We do--at least those of us whose parents taught us social manners.

> .... or...
>
> Embrace what you love, do and dance...
> Leave others alone...

Yes, let's just forget about teaching social rules and norms.
Anarchy rawks, YAY!!!

> Improve in yourself and your abilities and skills to protect your partner...

It's a lot nicer when everyone else on the floor is protecting
her too, instead of just being completely self-absorbed.

Huck

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 02:11:26 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The demise of Tango
To: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Cc: David Thorn <thorn-inside@hotmail.com>, Sergey Kazachenko
<syarzhuk@gmail.com>, tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>

Noughts wrote:

> Hell, whilst we are at it, why don't we regulate dinner...

Let's not forget breathing. Some people breathe in a totally
unacceptable fashion and should be prohibited to breathe...

...bouncer, please act accordingly!

Date: Tue, 28 Apr 2009 11:54:53 +1000
From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The demise of Tango
To: Huck Kennedy <tempehuck@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<cb8208d0904271854h1656e1acnff7cabad400d18f5@mail.gmail.com>

Gee Huck,

Thanks... maybe, just maybe, I'm highlighting the fact that sometimes,
we all take it too far....
Death or dismemberment is not going to happen here, unless you happen
to be in a building that fails.....

Having taught different activities where death can occur, I have a
very strong emphasis on safety, but... this is tango you know... a
social dance. What makes everyone think that we can regulate it with
the "Spoken Rules" when we can't even regulate our own lives. Our
courts are congested... etc....

Just a thought.... you know cause I can regulate and control me, what
I am doing and or want to do, but not you. Sorry, I'm not a God, not
even close... Even worse would be a Goverment trying to control..
.again. We all know how successful that has been over time....

:-(




2009/4/28 Huck Kennedy <tempehuck@gmail.com>:

> On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 4:47 PM, Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hell, whilst we are at it, why don't we regulate dinner...
>
> ? ? ?We do--at least those of us whose parents taught us social manners.
>
>> .... or...
>>
>> Embrace what you love, do and dance...
>> Leave others alone...
>
> ? ? ?Yes, let's just forget about teaching social rules and norms.
> Anarchy rawks, YAY!!!
>
>> Improve in yourself and your abilities and skills to protect your partner...
>
> ? ? ?It's a lot nicer when everyone else on the floor is protecting
> her too, instead of just being completely self-absorbed.
>
> Huck
>