1703  Absurdities I heard today

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 04:24:08 +0000
From: ahshol Kahn <kahn44@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Absurdities I heard today

# 1 absurdity ____My favorite one is "Don't move your hips."

I think virtually ALL argentine teachers use this admonition, yet if
you watch them on the dance floor every single one of them is moving
her (and his) hips. If your hips are stiff and rigid, there is no way
to feel grounded and smooth.

Before anybody jumps on me, I'm NOT saying "salsa hips".

Absurdity #2______"This is so important. I hear so many teachers say "lead
with the chest",
when that's not how they dance themselves-they dance from their center.
They're just repeating what they heard when they were taught. These are
the same teachers who say "Use your hand to guide her" or "lift her"
when I never feel them use their hands or arms or a lift on me."

Moving the hips:

The hips are displaced with the rest of the body forward or backward but
they do not move from side to side, like in the other Latin dances. There is
a movement of the hip that is typical of tango. This motion takes as center
an axis that goes from the head straight down to the floor. (seen in ocho
cortado, for instance, or a slight similar motion done at the cross or
before the cross.

When the instructors say "do not move the hips they refer to a ridiculous
motion of the hip from side to side. No Argentinean teacher exhibits such a
motion. Come on! be reasonable.

The center of the body:

The lead comes from the chest. Is this a novelty for you? Who cares if the
center of the body is in the navel or in the big toe. The lead comes from
the chest. Very simple.

The chest is kept forward, the nipples on the same frontal plane as the
knees. The chest is maintained framed with your partner. Any motion of the
chest is immediately followed . There is at times counter body rotation when
the navel points forward but the chest is rotated.

So what is this non-sense about leading with the center of the body, the
navel or the big toe.

Where do you get all those ridiculous notions? On top of being absurd you
dare to criticize the teachers?

I find this more obscene than anything that Cervila Junior said. The tragedy
is that he was attacked and silenced and you keep talking.

Good night.

Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:57:55 -0700
From: John Taylor <gancho2004@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Absurdities I heard today

>"This is so important. I hear so many teachers say "lead with the

chest",
when that's not how they dance themselves-they dance from their center.
They're just repeating what they heard when they were taught. These are
the same teachers who say "Use your hand to guide her" or "lift her"
when I never feel them use their hands or arms or a lift on me."



I am also surprised to read these type of statements.
Tango is led with the chest, there is no doubt about it.

Tango is lead in great part with the hands, there is no doubt about it.

The man "lifts" the lady to execute many steps, there is no doubt about it.

Could you tell me what is that you dance? Perhaps a different style?

Let me think ...milonguero? ...New tango... Salon?...no way it has to be something else.

Could you tell us about it?

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:19:24 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Absurdities I heard today

> >"This is so important. I hear so many teachers say "lead with the
>chest", when that's not how they dance themselves-they dance from
>their center.
>They're just repeating what they heard when they were taught. These are
>the same teachers who say "Use your hand to guide her" or "lift her"
>when I never feel them use their hands or arms or a lift on me."
>
>I am also surprised to read these type of statements.
>Tango is led with the chest, there is no doubt about it.

When we use words to evoke movements in a class, we must be very
careful with language. If you say "lead with the chest", then many
guys will lean over a smaller woman, bringing his chest down to her,
which isn't what we want. In that situation, you have to use
different words, like "lead with your masculine tummy", and maybe
they get the right notion. So on the INSTRUCTIONAL level, it is a
matter of TRANSMISSION of a concept, and whether its RECEPTION is
effective.

PHYSICALLY, it is true that the leader should maintain a lifted,
bold, forward chest, but the actual motion BEGINS in the center of
mass, not the chest. This is the most efficient way. It is a sloppier
if the motion is initiated with the chest, then the rest of the body
follows.

This is a concept general to all dance, not just tango...Modern,
Ballet, West Coast Swing, Lindy Swing, etc...

>Tango is lead in great part with the hands, there is no doubt about it.

In close embrace this is not true at all. Hands are minimally involved.

In an open embrace, movement may be communicated with the hands, but
again, the motion is INITIATED in the center and the arms & hands
should have "tone", but not force. Again, we're trying to find the
most efficient way to communicate. Leading with the hands when the
body is not engaged is a sloppy way to do things, and it doesn't have
a lot of power or conviction.

Nuevo is fairly efficient in leading with minimal hand force,
although even there we have at least a little bit of indication with
the hands. The amount of force is stylistic, not fundamental.

>The man "lifts" the lady to execute many steps, there is no doubt about it.

There may be some styles which ask for that, but many styles do not.
I do milonguero and nuevo (if such classifications are adequate),
neither of which asks for much upward lifting. Maybe for an
occasional move, but frankly, I hardly ever do that.



Regarding hip motion.

Most salsa dancers come to tango with too much hip motion. Most N.
Americans (especially the guys) come to tango with too little hip
movement. If your hips do not settle a little, and your legs are not
softened at the knee, then you feel rigid and stiff. If your hips
settle, which means there will be a little shift to the side, then it
softens up your movements, making them more grounded and "cat-like".

There is more too it than that simple description, but stiff and
rigid doesn't work.

Go to Argentina and watch the dance floor. They're all moving their
hips side-to-side a little, like a pendulum. "It is like a little
ringing bell hanging from my heart". Milonga tras-pie anyone?

NOT SALSA HIPS, TANGO HIPS.


To be more specific.

Your supporting hip needs to absorb the energy of your weight, and
stabilize your axis into the earth. If the hip moves out a little
bit, then it opens room under your axis for your other thigh to pass
through the center axis. This makes ochos smoother and boleos or
pivots faster and more efficient. It allows the follower to walk
backward with the axis very stable and clean.

This comment really deserves a visual demonstration, as most people
learn better either visually or kinesthetically. The Tango-L selects
for more analytical/descriptive/verbal people!





--

Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-388-2560

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 02:57:31 EDT
From: "Laurie Moseley (at home)" <LGMoseley@AOL.COM>
Subject: Absurdities I heard today - The place of analysis

I agree that Tango-L selects for more analytic/verbal people. However, that
is NOT the same as saying that analysis is useless. Clearly, as with most
pattern-matching activities, seeing a good dancer move will help to put the pattern
into one's mind. However, what is put into the mind may very well be a badly
executed move. A very common example is when a leader leans his head downward
and break the pair's common balance and the lady's posture. When we spot this,
and point it out (gently), it is usually the case that the leader was unaware
that he had been doing it.

Learning and doing are two different activities. However, I do not see how
you can change what you are doing, unless you know that you are doing it. The
way that you know that you are doing it is by putting it into words. You use the
analysis to learn (not to do). The doing comes from practice and putting
things into muscle memory. However, you need the learning to ensure that what you
are practising is not merely reinforcing bad habits. That is where analysis
comes into play.

It is surprising how many people have what Tom calls Patternitis. One of the
more striking examples is what appears to be the 'standard' forward Giro
clockwise. Time and time again I dance with a lady from another town who, once I
have started such a Giro, just goes off on her own and does the classic
Slow-Slow-Quick-Quick-Slow-unwind with half an Ocho at the end. She has gone onto
automatic pilot and has started one of her patterns. Had she danced standard Tango
(one step to a beat unless otherwise led), we would have had available to us
a wide variety of different giros. Examples include: parallel/cross-footed,
three steps/four steps round, go round twice (4 steps) throw in sacadas, change
feet half way through, come out on step three into caminando para atras, turn
the giro into an Ocho, spin to a drag, offer a boleo, offer a gancho (note
that both are merely polite offers, she is at liberty to reject the offer - but
if she has gone off on autopilot the man cannot even make the offer, so one
more element of the conversation between two bodies has been lost), change the
direction of the giro, turn the giro into an Ocho and probably many more
choices.

The problem lies in the teaching. If the lady has been taught to do the
Slow-Slow-Quick-Quick-Slow-then-unwind version of the Giro, we have the problem
described above. Our own teaching is always to start a Giro as a standard
four-step, one step to a beat, pattern. Of course, you can change that to lead the
SSQQSU version whenever you want to, but it is then a conscious choice, not a
conditioned reflex, and it is only one choice among many. The more choice you
have, the better the quality of the non-verbal conversation. Like oral
conversations, the wider your vocabulary, the better your chance of meaningful
communication.

When you are dancing, dance, don't analyse. When you are learning, analyse.
When you are teaching, help with the analysis. We find that merely showing
people that there is more than one way of doing any movement is often enough to
help dispel some of the clumsier bad habits of improvers. And, yes, that
analysis should include regular revisiting of the basic: posture, frame, alignment,
walking on the balls of the feet, brushing the feet, using the whole room,
including the corners, etc.

Laurie

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 09:24:24 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: Absurdities I heard today

Leading with your hands is an insult to the good follower. It is like
screaming at someone to get your point across.

Yes, screaming can be quite effective. But it won't make you very
popular. OK, with some people you just have to yell in order to make
them understand. But those with more refined communication skills often
can avoid it. And it's often a good idea to try a more refined approach
first, to see if you are understood.

Lois
Minneapolis, MN 55408

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of John Taylor
> Sent: Thursday, August 14, 2003 11:58 PM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: [TANGO-L] Absurdities I heard today
>
>
> >"This is so important. I hear so many teachers say "lead with the
> chest",
> when that's not how they dance themselves-they dance from
> their center. They're just repeating what they heard when
> they were taught. These are the same teachers who say "Use
> your hand to guide her" or "lift her" when I never feel them
> use their hands or arms or a lift on me."
>
>
>
> I am also surprised to read these type of statements.
> Tango is led with the chest, there is no doubt about it.
>
> Tango is lead in great part with the hands, there is no doubt
> about it.
>
> The man "lifts" the lady to execute many steps, there is no
> doubt about it.
>
> Could you tell me what is that you dance? Perhaps a different style?
>
> Let me think ...milonguero? ...New tango... Salon?...no way
> it has to be something else.
>
> Could you tell us about it?
>
>
>
>
>

Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:49:44 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Absurdities I heard today

> Leading with your hands is an insult to the good follower. It is like
> screaming at someone to get your point across.

This does not really make sense, Lois, since leading with the body is much
more powerful and effective. (I did not say, that speaking in a very low
voice isn't too, but it is not the same.)
And besides, leading with your hands (only!) is not an insult to the good
follower, it is the mark of a poor leader. Saying "I did not lead that !"
when the follower followed your body instead of your hands is !
Would you also say that saying out loud:"I want you to go over there !" is
even more effective and persuasive than leading with the hands?

reeling from an overdose of nitwittage

Astrid

P.S.
Antonio, where are you when we need a change of air? ; )