3358 boycott of La Turca's milonga in Confiteria Ideal
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 13:45:26 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: boycott of La Turca's milonga in Confiteria Ideal
<Janis, what was the deal with the letter to boycott La Turca's milonga?
J in Portland>
The following text from
https://www.tangonoticias.com/articles/a2005/apr/hike.html explains the
situation.
Tangueros and Tangueras Protest the Milonga Price Hike
By Natalie Pepa
After the brouhaha following the Cromagnon fire and more than 6 weeks of
closures, the milongas have resumed. All´s back to normal. Almost. Truth is
little has changed, particularly in the area of safety. There are new signs
everywhere designating “salida de emergencia,” but… at one milonga the exit
doors are still blocked by tables and chairs. At another, a wall was knocked
out for a new fire exit, but the doors are padlocked (try looking for those
damn keys when the house´s burning down!). At still another, the fire exit
has electrically driven louvers (anyone ever tell them that electric power
is usually one of the first things to go in a fire?). But hey folks,
safety ain´t the issue when we go to Buenos Aires now is it? We go for
tango! And tango is safe and sound here.Tourists have come pouring in from
all over. Last year Argentines took in more income from tourism than ever
and they welcome tourists with open arms. Oops! Maybe not everyone. Two
weeks ago I went to Confiteria Ideal for the afternoon milonga. “Diez
pesos,” I was told. “It went up that much?” I asked in shock. Then [Alicia
Juan], the organizer, rushed over. “No, not her,” she said, “she gets
charged $6.” Turning to me with a smile, she whispered, “We are charging
the foreigners that, but you are one of us.” I took my ticket and got
seated. A woman from California who visits Buenos Aires every year sat next
to me. When I said I paid $6 while she had paid $10, she was outraged. She
immediately went to
speak with the organizers and got an apology and a, “now that we know you,
we will only charge you $6.” Others I spoke to felt it was absolutely wrong,
a stupid move that would backfire. Problem is, I pointed out, they are
keeping it undercover. One of my porteno friends talked to the organizers
and told them they should at least post a sign so everyone would know, the
response was, “No, that would totally screw us.” Really, said my friend, you
are damn right it will screw you! I tried to put myself in their shoes.
Perhaps the costs have risen and if the charges go up equally for all, few
portenos will be able to afford the milongas. But the argument doesn´t hold
for me, it presumes that every foreigner is wealthy and every Argentine
poor. If we follow this logic then Cubans ought to pay less than porteños!
The longer I thought of it, the angrier I became. I see it as nothing other
than descrimination and worst of all, done surreptitiously. And so we
created a letter, in Castellano, English and French, and circulated it at
several milongas. Word spread, the organizer (who was present when the
letter was passed around), confronted me and said I was unfair, that this
was her livelihood. Look, I said, tell me if there is falsehood in any of
this and I will stand before everyone and retract my words. She would not
listen to reason but kept insisting this was an attack. Everyone else,
though, was on my side. Organizers at other milongas put the letter on the
entrance table so everyone could pick it up. A representative from El
Tangauta spoke to me and may publish the letter. The saga continues as I
prepare to leave Buenos Aires and I will only know the outcome over time. My
job is done for now but others have taken on the campaign.
Here is the letter:
Dear Tango friends,
Are you aware of the descriminatory policy in effect at the Monday afternoon
milonga at Confiteria Ideal? Apparently, the organizers have decided that
tango tourists are to be exploited. Thereby they are charged $10 while
portenos are charged $6. This open letter is to let you know of this injust
abuse of all our tango brothers and sisters around the world. Perhaps, in
order to demonstrate our solidarity, we should boycott this milonga and any
other that puts so little value upon the tourist and promulgates a bad name
for all Argentines.
[signed by Natalie Pepa]
I don't know what effect, if any, this letter has had on the attendance at
Alicia La Turca's milonga in Confiteria Ideal. All I know is that the woman
distributed the letter and has left Buenos Aires. With all the problems
that the milongas have had this year, the last thing they needed was a
boycott. Alicia wasn't able to run her milonga for two months this year,
and there was no place to dance on Monday afternoon. She's not pleased
about the distribution of this letter.
Before the devaluation of the peso in January 2002, the entrada for everyone
was five pesos (equal to five dollars). Currently, the dollar is worth 2.85
pesos, so that means a tourist paying the entrada of ten pesos is paying
US$3.41. The locals, who can afford to pay the entrada, are charged 6 pesos
in Ideal and most of the other milongas. Senior citizens who live on a
fixed income are charged 2 pesos to cover the tax. If they had to pay the
full entrada, the milongas would have fewer dancers.
Janis Kenyon
Buenos Aires
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 12:57:31 EDT
From: Richard deSousa <Mallpasso@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: boycott of La Turca's milonga in Confiteria Ideal
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Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 10:31:46 -0700
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: boycott of La Turca's milonga in Confiteria Ideal
Dear friends,
I am a graduate student on a budget and I like a good discount any day. But I stop short at raising a stink over a price difference of $1.35 between tourists and locals at the Confiteria Ideal. I went there a handful of times in the past 2 weeks. I figure if I can fork over $600 for the airfare, I can cough up an extra $1.35 to help the milonga organizers and in general tip and spread my limited funds around and help the local economy. The portenos have had a crushing blow to their standard of living in the past few years, and the milonga organizers have to meet their costs and make a passable living (especially following the closings), and for sure they won't make a killing off the retirees that hang at Ideal in the daytime (at 2 pesos each), with or without knowledge of their spouse, and whether or not on their way to make photocopies.
From talking about the matter to others in BA, it seems that if you are a foreigner who's a long-term tourist/short-term resident (i.e. not part of a foreign economy right now), you can explain and get the local price. For everybody else, I figure $1.35 is not worth feeling cheap over. But of course everybody has to decide for themselves. I agree they might consider ASKING tourists nicely to pay a little extra. But there's a lot of tightwads out there...
It is interesting that the portenos get so excited over this. Actually I find the socialist attitude rather endearing. But not necessary. Seems to me they should have bigger things to get excited about.
Tine
www.tangomuse.com
Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR> wrote:
J in Portland>
The following text from
https://www.tangonoticias.com/articles/a2005/apr/hike.html explains the
situation.
Tangueros and Tangueras Protest the Milonga Price Hike
By Natalie Pepa
After the brouhaha following the Cromagnon fire and more than 6 weeks of
closures, the milongas have resumed. All4s back to normal. Almost. Truth is
little has changed, particularly in the area of safety. There are new signs
everywhere designating salida de emergencia, but at one milonga the exit
doors are still blocked by tables and chairs. At another, a wall was knocked
out for a new fire exit, but the doors are padlocked (try looking for those
damn keys when the house4s burning down!). At still another, the fire exit
has electrically driven louvers (anyone ever tell them that electric power
is usually one of the first things to go in a fire?). But hey folks,
safety ain4t the issue when we go to Buenos Aires now is it? We go for
tango! And tango is safe and sound here.Tourists have come pouring in from
all over. Last year Argentines took in more income from tourism than ever
and they welcome tourists with open arms. Oops! Maybe not everyone. Two
weeks ago I went to Confiteria Ideal for the afternoon milonga. Diez
pesos, I was told. It went up that much? I asked in shock. Then [Alicia
Juan], the organizer, rushed over. No, not her, she said, she gets
charged $6. Turning to me with a smile, she whispered, We are charging
the foreigners that, but you are one of us. I took my ticket and got
seated. A woman from California who visits Buenos Aires every year sat next
to me. When I said I paid $6 while she had paid $10, she was outraged. She
immediately went to
speak with the organizers and got an apology and a, now that we know you,
we will only charge you $6. Others I spoke to felt it was absolutely wrong,
a stupid move that would backfire. Problem is, I pointed out, they are
keeping it undercover. One of my porteno friends talked to the organizers
and told them they should at least post a sign so everyone would know, the
response was, No, that would totally screw us. Really, said my friend, you
are damn right it will screw you! I tried to put myself in their shoes.
Perhaps the costs have risen and if the charges go up equally for all, few
portenos will be able to afford the milongas. But the argument doesn4t hold
for me, it presumes that every foreigner is wealthy and every Argentine
poor. If we follow this logic then Cubans ought to pay less than porteqos!
The longer I thought of it, the angrier I became. I see it as nothing other
than descrimination and worst of all, done surreptitiously. And so we
created a letter, in Castellano, English and French, and circulated it at
several milongas. Word spread, the organizer (who was present when the
letter was passed around), confronted me and said I was unfair, that this
was her livelihood. Look, I said, tell me if there is falsehood in any of
this and I will stand before everyone and retract my words. She would not
listen to reason but kept insisting this was an attack. Everyone else,
though, was on my side. Organizers at other milongas put the letter on the
entrance table so everyone could pick it up. A representative from El
Tangauta spoke to me and may publish the letter. The saga continues as I
prepare to leave Buenos Aires and I will only know the outcome over time. My
job is done for now but others have taken on the campaign.
Here is the letter:
Dear Tango friends,
Are you aware of the descriminatory policy in effect at the Monday afternoon
milonga at Confiteria Ideal? Apparently, the organizers have decided that
tango tourists are to be exploited. Thereby they are charged $10 while
portenos are charged $6. This open letter is to let you know of this injust
abuse of all our tango brothers and sisters around the world. Perhaps, in
order to demonstrate our solidarity, we should boycott this milonga and any
other that puts so little value upon the tourist and promulgates a bad name
for all Argentines.
[signed by Natalie Pepa]
I don't know what effect, if any, this letter has had on the attendance at
Alicia La Turca's milonga in Confiteria Ideal. All I know is that the woman
distributed the letter and has left Buenos Aires. With all the problems
that the milongas have had this year, the last thing they needed was a
boycott. Alicia wasn't able to run her milonga for two months this year,
and there was no place to dance on Monday afternoon. She's not pleased
about the distribution of this letter.
Before the devaluation of the peso in January 2002, the entrada for everyone
was five pesos (equal to five dollars). Currently, the dollar is worth 2.85
pesos, so that means a tourist paying the entrada of ten pesos is paying
US$3.41. The locals, who can afford to pay the entrada, are charged 6 pesos
in Ideal and most of the other milongas. Senior citizens who live on a
fixed income are charged 2 pesos to cover the tax. If they had to pay the
full entrada, the milongas would have fewer dancers.
Janis Kenyon
Buenos Aires
************************
Tango Club at Yale
YaleTangoClub@yahoo.com
www.yaletangoclub.org
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Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 15:23:30 EDT
From: JoanMilonguera@CS.COM
Subject: Re: boycott of La Turca's milonga in Confiteria Ideal
In a message dated 4/11/2005 12:10:08 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
JoanMilonguera writes:
> Janis:
>
> Thanks for the explanation of this policy and problem. Perhaps, a solution
> would be for the organizers issue a flyer to be posted at the entrance table
> or posted elsewhere explaining the need to recover the lost income from the
> closures and asking for contributions, if one is able. I am sure Americans
> would be very sympathetic to this need and would give extra. The organizers
> may even recoup a profit and maintain their reputation for fairness.
>
> Just a though.
> Joan Draper
> Portland, OR
>
> In a message dated 4/11/2005 9:49:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
> jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR writes:
>
>
> >> <Janis, what was the deal with the letter to boycott La Turca's milonga?
>>
>> J in Portland>
>>
>>
>
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 15:30:29 -0400
From: Janet Riksen <jriksen@WETA.COM>
Subject: Re: boycott of La Turca's milonga in Confiteria Ideal
Could someone be kind enough to tell me how to remove my name from the
list serve. Thank you very much.
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 21:50:58 +0200
From: Andy <andy.ungureanu@T-ONLINE.DE>
Subject: Re: boycott of La Turca's milonga in Confiteria Ideal
Dear Tine,
>I am a graduate student on a budget and I like a good discount any day. But I stop short at raising a stink over a price difference of $1.35 between tourists and locals at the Confiteria Ideal. I went there a handful of times in the past 2 weeks. I figure if I can fork over $600 for the airfare, I can cough up an extra $1.35 to help the milonga organizers and in general tip and spread my limited funds around and help the local economy.
>
>
I'm wondering how anybody can accept such discrimination. There is one
price for one product and every customer. If you want to support the
"poor" organizers you can make voluntarily a donation. At the time when
the Peso was unreasonable high and fixed to the US$, I also paid my 5 $
without any discussion, allthough at that time the Milongas in Germany
only charged 2,50 $. Why should I now pay more than the locals??
>
>It is interesting that the portenos get so excited over this. Actually I find the socialist attitude rather endearing.
>
>
I lived more than 16 years in a socialist country, and socialism is not
when everyone pays the same, the opposite ist true. Socialism is when
the rich are charged more, with the intention to make them equal to the
poor ones.
The portenos who get excited about this are the ones who understand how
the business goes. Without tourists, maybe 10 Milongas could exist in
Buenos Aires, not 100, and 200 teachers were out of work. If a tourist
believes he is ripped off, he will not return. The fact that tourists
are charged 50 US$ for privates and locals 30 Pesos is allready bad enough.
Andy
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 16:37:39 EDT
From: TangoLady@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: boycott of La Turca's milonga in Confiteria Ideal
I agree with Joan Draper of Portland - that if Milonga organizers in Bs. As.
were to post the need to regain the income lost from past closures and ask for
voluntary contributions, Americans and other foreigners would be very
sympathetic and giving.
I am also in agreement with Andy's post.
It is not the $1.35 more or the fact of who can afford it or not. It's the
principal of it that would make me not want to pay the difference in prices.
Why must Americans have to pay more for everything everywhere? Also
descriminating in this obscure way makes it worse. Honesty is so much better to deal
with.
My two cents.
Lydia
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 16:45:17 EDT
From: Richard deSousa <Mallpasso@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: boycott of La Turca's milonga in Confiteria Ideal
Remember, Argentina is not a socialist state. It is run by capitalism and
the milongas are private affairs run by individuals. If the "foreigners"
don't like the prices, stay away from the milongas who discriminate. Eventually,
the market place will hurt those who discriminate and they will lower their
prices.
el bandito de tango
In a message dated 4/11/2005 13:39:01 Pacific Daylight Time,
TangoLady@AOL.COM writes:
I agree with Joan Draper of Portland - that if Milonga organizers in Bs. As.
were to post the need to regain the income lost from past closures and ask
for
voluntary contributions, Americans and other foreigners would be very
sympathetic and giving.
I am also in agreement with Andy's post.
It is not the $1.35 more or the fact of who can afford it or not. It's the
principal of it that would make me not want to pay the difference in prices.
Why must Americans have to pay more for everything everywhere? Also
descriminating in this obscure way makes it worse. Honesty is so much
better to deal
with.
My two cents.
Lydia
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2005 22:46:25 +0200
From: Christian Lüthen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: of discimination and arrogance ... Re: boycott of La Turca's milonga in Confiteria Ideal
Hmm, very interesting discussion!
I absolutely agree with Andy who wrote:
> I'm wondering how anybody can accept such discrimination. There is one
> price for one product and every customer. If you want to support the
> "poor" organizers you can make voluntarily a donation. At the time when
> the Peso was unreasonable high and fixed to the US$, I also paid my 5 $
> without any discussion, allthough at that time the Milongas in Germany
> only charged 2,50 $. Why should I now pay more than the locals??
So did I: I payed my Peso=US$-entrance at the milongas in Bs.As. back
in 1998 (pre-crisis) when the entrance at my local milonga was less
than 2 US$ and I hardly could afford it! I did not get a discount at
those times for being 'a nice german without money' (and I did not
expect one).
On 11 Apr 2005 at 15:23, JoanMilonguera@CS.COM wrote:
> I am sure Americans would be very sympathetic to this need and
> would give extra.
You don't buy respect that way!!! Actually the opposite is true!!!
Did you ever ask yourself why american tourists ["we can buy the
world"] do not have the best reputation [/euphemism] as travellers
around (!) the world?? Why they are mostly welcome to leave their
money but then mentally kicked in their asses as soon as they turn
away?
It's because of this "throw-out the money attitude"!
In Buenos Aires it is usual coustum that taxi-drivers would round
down a taxi-meter of 8,20 Peso to 8 Peso ... but tourists leaving
behind a 10 Peso bill do destroy the whole positive attitude. (the
next day they'll be taken a detour ... and still those stupidos would
get a rounded up price ... got the message?!)
Off course I'd also round up to 8,50 but anything else would be
counterproductive as at a certain moment the taxi-driver would start
to have the same expectation to the locals! Got the message?!
The same is true for any business ... including milongas!
Btw: I actually find those kids or junks at the entrance of a milonga
who open the doors of your taxi when you're arriving in the very
strong and aggressive expectation of at lest a peso (some am's leave
more behind) *very* annoying!
Andy also is right stating:
> Without tourists, maybe 10 Milongas could exist in
> Buenos Aires, not 100,
And that is tourists paying the regular entry fee - the one everyone
pays.
> and 200 teachers were out of work.
At least. [allthough this might be better, sometimes, in respect to
the (no)quality: I've seen unknown baby teachers teaching ... you
wouldn't pay a dime for them elsewhere and the biggest part of their
qualification was to be 'argentinian born' :-( But that's even
another story.]
> If a tourist believes he is ripped off, he will not return.
That's the thing: the last times I always spend a month down in
Buenos Aires, in 2003 I went out 29 nights in a row. This means a
couple of milongas I went to every week ... paying the entrance fee 4
times at least. If I'd felt ripped-off I would not have returned
after the first time, or even have left at the door without entering
... that is NO money made at all!
> The fact that tourists are
> charged 50 US$ for privates and locals 30 Pesos is allready bad enough
Absolutely! As far as I heard Gustavo & Giselle (who are great
teachers, for sure), this year for the first time since years gave
classes affordable to argentians down in Buenos Aires ... as these
two years they are not touring the world. So those "good" tourists
paying so much *extra* money ... NO, they do NOT support the local
people! In contrary!!!
So far some thoughts. I hope I made myself understandable in a non-
mother-tongue-language. I do not want to insult anyone and hope my
posting will be respected as thoughts and ideas to start thinking
about. I'd like to stress that I have many good friends in the north
american tango scene which I respect and like very much. [Portland is
a sort of second tango home to me as is Buenos Aires]
But p l e a s e : even if you dislike my posting ... come back to it
after a while (and again) and think it over again ...
Happy - respectful - tangoeing ... whereever you are!
Christian
christian@eTanguero.net
https://www.eTanguero.net/
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 11:38:30 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: boycott of La Turca's milonga in Confiteria Ideal
I dream one day I will go to Buenos Aires.
I will go there to dance with Argentineans.
I am not going there to dance with others.
If it is required to let Argentineans FREE, and all the tourist to pay the
double price - that is only fair.
I am not going to milongas which charge equal price for locals and tourists,
but where there are no locals.
Igor Polk
PS. By the way, dollar is much cheaper for Americans than for Argentineans.
So difference in price only reflects reality. $6 and $10 - that is rip off
Argentineans. This is not fair.
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2005 12:48:17 -0700
From: Frank Lupo <flupo@PASADENALAW.COM>
Subject: Re: boycott of La Turca's milonga in Confiteria Ideal
Igor,
You have expressed my sentiments exactly. I do not see
it as a problem for local residents of a city or other
locale to get a better deal than non-residents. The
practice is wide spread in the United States where for
example, there are county and town parks that are
either only open to residents or which charge a higher
fee to non-residents. I know that such practices exist
on Long Island in New York State where I grew up. In
the commercial capitalistic setting I know that here
in Southern California where I now live Disneyland and
other amusement parks have special discounts for
people who can show that they reside in certain
Southern California zip codes. I have never heard of
anyone complaining that residents of Los Angeles can
get into Disneyland for less than people visiting from
Boise, Idaho.
Businesses also offer discounts to people over 55
years of age or some other arbitrary age, or discounts
for children. One could complain of age discrimination
I suppose, but life is too short.
Businesses have legitimate reasons to offer incentives
to various segments of the encourage those segments of
the population to patronize their business. If one
assumes, as I am sure those who run the milongas do,
that tourists travel to Buenos Aires from all over the
world to experience the local culture and dance if not
with at least along side of Porteqos, then the
practice of offer a discount to locals makes good
business sense.
The residents of Buenos Aires live, work, support
local businesses year round and pay the taxes which
support the local infrastructure. To be sure the
tourist dollar is very important to the economy, but I
do not see charging locales less as constituting some
form of unfair discrimination against foreign
nationals. I would think that visitors would be happy
to pay extra for the privilege of dancing at an
authentic milonga with at least a few of the citizens
of Buenos Aires. Why else make the trip? If your main
interest is to dance at a bargain rate stay home and
dance with the residents of your home town, wherever
that may be. By the way here in Los Angeles the
entrance to milongas ranges from $10 to $15 and
sometimes more for special events.
Frank Lupo
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM> wrote:
> I dream one day I will go to Buenos Aires.
> I will go there to dance with Argentineans.
> I am not going there to dance with others.
> If it is required to let Argentineans FREE, and all
> the tourist to pay the
> double price - that is only fair.
> I am not going to milongas which charge equal price
> for locals and tourists,
> but where there are no locals.
