2850 Carlos Lima's Milonga
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 09:48:13 -0700
From: Jay Jenkins <jayjenkins888@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Carlos Lima's Milonga
Carlos Lima says (among other things):
"Now it's your turn. You have already been home and studied, you just
have to tell us where you got the stuff. No unsupported secondary sources
please,
they are mostly crap, and ABOVE ALL no random "web sites", PLEASE. I
will
allow todotango sometimes."
It seems that he is asking for some references for my recent note on Milonga.
I should say that I have spent a lot of time at the Academia Nacional de Tango where I had the chance to consult bibliography under the guidance of some of the academicians themselves.
I was interested in original references only for it is well known that there are thousands of publications which are reprinted again and again in Europe and the USA, in part due to deep ignorance on the subject, which are generally known in Argentina as trash . Many of them however are based in Documents or primary information, some are compilations written by well respected investigators.
I think that the following (there are many others) are well based:
- Antologia del Tango Rioplatense,
Instituto Nacional de Musicologia "Carlos Vega", Bs. As. 1980
- Cosas de Negros,
Vicente Rossi, Ed. Hachette, Colecc. El Pardo Argentino, Bs. As. 1958
- El Libro del Tango, Cronica y diccionario 1850 - 1977
Horacio Ferrer, Ed. Galerna, Bs. As. 1977
- El Tango y sus circunstancias,
Fernando O. Assuncao, Ed. El Ateneo, Bs. As. 1984
- Historia del Tango, 3 Vol.
Ed. Corregidor, Bs. As. 1976 - 77
- Negros libres rioplatenses en Buenos Aires,
Ricardo Rodriguez Molas,
- Asi nacieron los Tangos,
Francisco Garcia Jimenez, Ed. Losada, Buenos Aires, 1965
Revista de Humanidades, Ministerio de Educacion de la Provincia,
A~no 1, No 1, Sept. 1961
- La Musica en el Uruguay,
Lauro Ayestaran, SODRE, Montevideo 1953
- Formas musicales rioplatenses (su origen hispanico)
J. T. Wilkes & Guerrero Carpena, Estudios Hispanicos, Bs. As. 1946
Now I am, together with some friends searching the african roots of tango, a subject that I find particularly interesting.
Summary: what irritates me and some of my friends is to see that somebody totally ignorant on the subject, an obvious reader of trash literature, has the audacity and the arrogance of ignoring everything that has been written on the subject and proceeds to speculate, to invent, to mislead. Just look to his last posting. He is implying in some way that the Habanera was taken and transformed in Europe not in Argentina into the marching German tango. There is exhaustive investigation on the subject. Tango arrived in Europe and the USA from Argentina to suffer some changes and adaptations to the local culture. Among this adaptations was the marching tango from Germany that was taken as a model for the Finnish Tango. Many Finnish musicians traveled to Argentina later on to try to absorb some degree of authenticity.
This is all I am going to say on the subject.
I repeat without any regrets, Carlos go home, get the right literature and study a little more before you invent what has already been invented.
Finally I like my milongas with the accent on the 16th, 17th and 31st, notes.:))
I wish a good weekend to everyone.
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 14:19:29 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Carlos Lima's Milonga
Jay Jenkins wrote:
<snipped>
> <>He is implying in some way that the Habanera was taken and
> transformed in Europe not in Argentina into the marching German tango.
I'm a mere intermediate student of tango and not even an amateur historian
of tango, so I won't presume to say whose story most closely parallels the
actual history, but nowhere did I see Carlos imply in his last post that
tango or the habanera arrived in Germany arrived from anywhere but
Argentina,
nor did he say anything that conflicted with what you say.
<snipped more>
> <>Tango arrived in Europe and the USA from Argentina to suffer some
> changes and adaptations to the local culture.
And I believe Carlos completely agrees with you, unless you claim that
the habanera wasn't an integral part of tango in as it arrived in Germany
in the twenties.
--
Christopher L. Everett
Chief Technology Officer www.medbanner.com
MedBanner, Inc. www.physemp.com
Date: Sat, 2 Oct 2004 13:31:36 -0700
From: Jay Jenkins <jayjenkins888@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Carlos Lima's milonga
Christopher
If somebody tells me that he is trying to decipher the pedigree of the march-like European ballroom tango pattern.
Then he says that it came to being due to the de-naturalization of the Habanera.
Then he gives details on how such de-naturalization takes place.
Then finally announces "Eureka" or voila' "The European ballroom tango " was born.
It seems to me that he started with the ingredient (Habanera) a dance called "De ida y vuelta" (that goes and comes back) in reference to the fact that it left from Spain, went to Cuba where it suffered some changes and then returned to the original country under the name of Habanera, to arrive later on to the Rio de la Plata where it was a precursor of Tango.
Carlos states that the ingredient is habanera no Argentine Tango, this habanera suffers some modification in Europe and so it becomes the European Tango.
To me this is a creation that goes from Habanera (a precursor of Argentine tango) directly to the European Tango totally by-passing the Argentine Tango.
I do not know what other meaning can I give to that post.
Would you please let me know your interpretation.
If I misunderstood the meaning of that reasoning then I apologize.
