890 Community Growth: Harmful unsolicited "teaching" & sexual advances
Date: Sat, 21 Dec 2002 13:34:40 -0800
From: Bugs Bunny <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Community Growth: Harmful unsolicited "teaching" & sexual advances
Anyone care to take a swing at how to positively deal with
unsolicited/unwanted/harmful "teaching" (as well as sexual advances) by
creepy guys at dances?
I've seen women (esp. beginners, who are very vulnerable to this) have
really bad experiences & actually leave altogether. I've seen regular women
tell these guys to their faces, they don't appreciate what they're doing.
How on earth do you get clueless people to somehow get a clue? They seem
extremely resistant to waking up.
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 12:51:19 +0100
From: Eero Olli <eero.olli@ISP.UIB.NO>
Subject: Community Growth: Harmful unsolicited "teaching" & sexual advances
This is a tricky thing. I'll try to give an answer in two parts.
First part is for all those people with normal or good social antennas, who
understand what is going on between people.
In our club this is part of a beginners class - the social skills section,
where among other things following topics are mentioned:
* Never give unsolicited 'help' at milongas. Training and commentary should
happen at practicas, which we have plenty off.
* We teach women and men, how to gracefully end a dance, if that would be
necessary. = the exit option is allways there.
* We teach how to gracefully decline from an invitation, or even avoid
getting the invitation for a dance. = if you are a pain in a butt, people
will not dance with you.
* We teach how the women can keep the size of frame she wants, even if the
man would want to make it smaller/tighter. i.e. women now how to keep the
distance they want, and even beginner men recognize will recognize this.
Because everybody gets this from the very beginning, there is a peer
pressure to upkeep these 'rules'. Nevertheless, sometimes a beginner would
get extensive help from a experienced danser at a milonga, but this would
happend off the main dansefloor. This something that we think is fine
because it helps to bring the newbies into the community, and it makes them
feel we care of them.
Sexual advances seem not to be part of the everyday life of our club, but
somehow people end up marrying each other and having children, so they must
do something when I am not watching. :-)
The second part of my answer regards those people with poor social
antennas, who have no clue of what other people feel and think. These are
the real problem, arent' they.
I believe that our beginnersclasses should help them develope their social
skills enough to recognize when they are rejected. You have to be pretty
thick in your head, if you do not recognize a rejection, after it has been
thought in a class.
An other helpfull thing is to let the word spread. If somebody behaves
improperly, people should know about it, so that this person can be
'avoided' or talked to by some of the more experienced ones. I think it is
perfectly fine to let someone know what kind of behavior is not tolerated
in our club. If they want to stay, they better behave themselves. It must
be more difficult in big cities where it is difficult to create one
community as you just cant know eveyrbody.
Sincerely,
eero
eero@bergentango.no
Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 17:02:30 -0800
From: Jai Jeffryes <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Community Growth: Harmful unsolicited "teaching" & sexual advances
--- Bugs Bunny <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> How on earth do you get clueless people to somehow
> get a clue? They seem
> extremely resistant to waking up.
Wrong question. You don't need to change anybody.
Just refuse to associate with people that disturb you.
It isn't anyone's job to "wake them up" unless we're
talking about criminal activity and then there's the
courts for that if you require it. Just leave them
alone and settle your mind. Problem solved.
Jai
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Date: Sun, 22 Dec 2002 20:57:17 -0800
From: Bugs Bunny <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Community Growth: Harmful unsolicited "teaching" & sexual advances
>>--- Bugs Bunny <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
>>How on earth do you get clueless people to somehow
>>get a clue? They seem
>>extremely resistant to waking up.
>Jai responds:
>Wrong question. You don't need to change anybody.
>Just refuse to associate with people that disturb you.
>It isn't anyone's job to "wake them up" unless we're
>talking about criminal activity and then there's the
>courts for that if you require it. Just leave them
>alone and settle your mind. Problem solved.
I'm not speaking about this for myself. I think that most men have no idea
what its like to walk in a women's shoes & just how vulnerable they are in
some situations & what they're aware of. Any men out there that doubt this,
ask the women in your life.
If someone is being invasive in my space, they'll get a warning. If it
happens again, they'll wish they hadn't.
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 10:04:42 -0800
From: Bugs Bunny <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Community Growth: Harmful unsolicited "teaching" & sexual advances
In my opinion, ignoring a predatory individual does nothing. Putting the
onus on women (esp. if they are vulnerable beginners & often quite young),
alone, to deal with this isn't the right answer either. Especially if most
of the experienced regulars know about this.
I think every situation is probably unique, depending on the people involved
& how its handled. I started this branch of the thread to get some ideas.
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 10:28:41 -0800
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Community Growth: Harmful unsolicited "teaching" & sexual advances
>>It isn't anyone's job to "wake them up" .......
>>Just leave them alone and settle your mind.
>>Problem solved.
> I'm not speaking about this for myself. I think that
> most men have no idea
> what its like to walk in a women's shoes & just how
> vulnerable they are in
> some situations & what they're aware of.
Hi guys,
I'll chime in here since I'm a woman. First off,
unsolicited teaching and sexual advances are two
completely different things and so they should be
handled differently.
My typical approach to unsolicited teaching is, if it
isn't something I want to hear, I ignore it. If the
person doesn't catch on to my disinterest and I am
still interested in dancing with them then I might
say, "let's just dance" or else just thank them and
stop dancing. I understand though that it isn't so
easy for women who are just starting out, they are
probably going to take any criticism to heart even if
it was unsolicited and they are probably going to
dance with just about every guy who asks them because
they want experience. But the thing is, at a milonga,
if a guy asks me to dance I rightfully assume it is
because he enjoys dancing with me and wants to share
that moment with me, not because he wants to test me
out and then critique my performance. If a lead needs
to instruct his partner on the dance floor then he is
not a good lead.
As for unwanted sexual advances the best way to put
someone in line is to be direct. Male or Female, if
someone is making you uncomfortable, tell them so.
"You are making me uncomfortable" should suffice.
Stop dancing with them, don't accept dances from them
in the future if you are not comfortable. In
Portland, we primarily dance close embrace, beginning
women might not feel comfortable with this yet,
becoming a follow requires a lot of trust, you must
feel secure with your partner in order to open up to
him, and embrace him closely and warmly. Good leads
understand this, it is also fine to dance an open
embrace, this is the woman's choice.
As her friend, Rick, you should be able to introduce
her to good leaders and friendly people. Beginning
women should always feel that it is okay to be
selective.
Abrazos,
Rose
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 12:58:45 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Community Growth: Harmful unsolicited "teaching" & sexual advances
Rick Anderson (aka Bugs Bunny) wrote:
>In my opinion, ignoring a predatory individual does nothing. Putting the
>onus on women (esp. if they are vulnerable beginners & often quite
young),
>alone, to deal with this isn't the right answer either.
I think Rick is right about this. I have seen an older man grab a very
young woman and dance with her in a very close embrace that seemed
uncomfortably familiar. She didn't stop dancing with him until the tanda
ended, but she left the milonga early and shifted from being a person to
rarely missed milongas to one who rarely attends milongas. I wish I had
said something.
I think that if the men in a community become aware of predatory behavior
on the part of a few other men, it is their obligation to tell the
offending person that his behavior is not welcome.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:12:48 -0800
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Community Growth: Harmful unsolicited "teaching" & sexual advances
At our events, the solution is fairly simple. Predators are not
welcome to our events. If someone has offended someone, the person
offended usually tells me (the organizer). I have a chat with the
offender and watch for behavioral changes. If the changes don't
occur, the person can be told not to come back. Fortunately, we've
only had to bar one person, and the chats tend to work.
This can sometimes be a hard call for an organizer to make because
one wants to be fair. If I get the same complaint from multiple
sources, that tells me something. We also make a distinction between
someone who is predatory versus someone who lacks social skills and
needs training.
My suggestion is to let the people in charge know (not just the
regulars). A word from an authority figure could be enough to change
the offender's behavior. We have a small community, but I don't see
why this wouldn't work as communities grow.
Hope that helps and happy holidays!
Trini
--- Bugs Bunny <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> In my opinion, ignoring a predatory individual does nothing.
> Putting the
> onus on women (esp. if they are vulnerable beginners & often quite
> young),
> alone, to deal with this isn't the right answer either. Especially
> if most
> of the experienced regulars know about this.
> I think every situation is probably unique, depending on the people
> involved
> & how its handled. I started this branch of the thread to get some
> ideas.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
=====
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Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.patangos.org/
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 11:10:31 -0800
From: Ed Loomis <TangoBear@OSBTOWN.COM>
Subject: (fwd) Community Growth: Harmful unsolicited "teaching" & sexual advances
Hi folks,
I doubt that there will be any easy answer to this. After forty years
of "feminism" it is no longer safe or politically correct for men to
intervene and protect a woman. Since American women rarely arrive with a
duenna to watch out for them they are vulnerable to this kind of jerk
behavior. That leaves it up to the women in the community to devise a
strategy for dealing with the malefactor. Shunning him en masse and
refusing to dance with him is effective in a small tightly knit community
but is impossible to arrange in a larger scene where new dancers are
arriving and departing constantly. It is common to see the men who have
made themselves unpopular with the local ladies, for whatever reason,
waiting to pounce on any new face that walks in the door. This has the
effect of turning our worst examples into ambassadors for our community.
They wind up being a new lady's first experience of tango. Once it becomes
clear that promising new ladies are being lost to a certain jerk's
attentions then the men can get involved but by then a lot of damage has
already been done. In our eight years of tango here in Sacramento we have
had two individuals who inspired the other men to close ranks and advise
them to go find something else to do. These guys weren't bothering to learn
tango so they were easy to single out. Otherwise if the ladies don't
complain, the men in the community tend to not know there is a problem.
Every community has this problem to some degree or another and I will be
happy to learn of any new and clever ways to deal with it. Ciao......
Ed
On Mon, 23 Dec 2002 10:04:42 -0800, Bugs Bunny <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
wrote:
>In my opinion, ignoring a predatory individual does nothing. Putting the
>onus on women (esp. if they are vulnerable beginners & often quite young),
>alone, to deal with this isn't the right answer either. Especially if most
>of the experienced regulars know about this.
>I think every situation is probably unique, depending on the people involved
>& how its handled. I started this branch of the thread to get some ideas.
>
Date: Mon, 23 Dec 2002 13:29:10 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: (fwd) Community Growth: Harmful unsolicited "teaching" & sexual advances
Ed Loomis wrote:
>After forty years of "feminism" it is no longer safe or
>politically correct for men to intervene and protect a woman.
Maybe this is something that varies by community. Living here in the
American South, men have a little more leeway to intervene on the behalf
of women. In fact, several men in the Dallas community did intervene on
behalf of several women and tell a man that his predatory (sick) behavior
would not be tolerated. His behavior had made several women very
nervous who then complained about him to other men. Those men interpreted
the complaints as an invitation to intervene. Maybe elsewhere the request
would have to be more direct.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 09:03:39 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Community Growth: Harmful unsolicited "teaching" & sexual advances
Some of my earlier comments strayed a bit away from the general thrust of
discussion because I was writing about an extreme form of predatory
behavior, where others had less extreme behavior in mind.
When we are talking about extreme predatory behavior, and the recipient of
the unwanted attention is an established member of the community who makes
an appeal for help of some sort, either men or women are likely to feel a
need to respond and tell the predator that such behavior is unwelcome in
the tango community. Meeting the predator with a group (posse?) can be
helpful.
Extreme predatory behavior is fairly rare, however. What is more common
is behavior that does not cross the line but is just aggressive enough to
be creepy.
Most communities have a few men and women who are fairly decent dancers
and frequent practices, but do not get to dance as often as they would
like. Whenever a young, attractive beginning dancer of the opposite sex
appears, these more experienced dancers quickly offer to dance and show
the younger dancer a few things. These more experieced dancers even
aggressively offer to dance with young dancers who have arrived with
partners. At first the beginning dancer is grateful for the opportunity
to dance with someone who knows more. As they dance, however, the less
experienced dancer begins to realize that something else is going on,
particularly when a polite thank fails to to end the attention, and the
more experienced dancer holds onto the beginner for dance after dance.
Suddenly what seemed like an opportunity to learn becomes creepy unwanted
attention.
In some cases, the unwanted attention will discourage younger
beginners--male and female--from continuing with tango.
What to do about such situations?
1) Beginners should watch others dance at first, and be careful about
accepting dances with more experienced dancers who are not dancing with
other experienced dancers.
2) The organizers can tell people who they see engaging in a repeated
pattern of destructive behavior that their behavior is not welcome at the
event.
3) More experienced dancers of the same gender as the beginning dancer
may warn the beginning dancer about people to avoid.
4) People who are the same gender as the more experienced dancer can tell
that person that their behavior is not welcome in the community.
5) Community FAQs can offer advise about dealing with unwanted attention.
A good example is on the Portland tango website
<https://home.europa.com/~walsup/tango/faq.html>.
6) Peoplc can notes to Tango-L advising others that such behavior can
occur.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
