2688 Dance arithmetic
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 20:44:28 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Dance arithmetic
I went to a lesson the other day where instructor was teaching how to walk
vals on 123-1, 1-34 etc. I have no problem whatsoever dancing on
double-time beats. In fact this is how I dance. But when it comes to
stepping on specific beats (1-34 for example) I simply cannot count them. I
wonder if it is me only and there are some advanced dancers who when they
dance do count. Say they think: "I am going to walk next phrase on 123-1 and
the one afterwards on 1-34". If they do count why do they do that? I simply
improvise the steps to the beats on the spot as they come in response to the
melody, my partner, the floor, how well I slept last night etc. What s the
point to counting?
There could be some kind of higher purpose for the students, I guess. It's
just that the purpose of counting eludes me and in general feels like a
gimmick. When I teach the double time beats I do a small demo and then ask
students to find their own beats because we all hear music differently (both
among us people and between different takes of the same song).
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:57:23 -0700
From: Michael <michael@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: Dance arithmetic
Oleh Kovalchuke wrote:
> I went to a lesson the other day where instructor was teaching how to walk
> vals on 123-1, 1-34 etc. I have no problem whatsoever dancing on
> double-time beats. In fact this is how I dance. But when it comes to
> stepping on specific beats (1-34 for example) I simply cannot count them. I
> wonder if it is me only and there are some advanced dancers who when they
> dance do count. Say they think: "I am going to walk next phrase on 123-1
> and
> the one afterwards on 1-34". If they do count why do they do that? I simply
> improvise the steps to the beats on the spot as they come in response to
> the
> melody, my partner, the floor, how well I slept last night etc. What s the
> point to counting?
>
> There could be some kind of higher purpose for the students, I guess. It's
> just that the purpose of counting eludes me and in general feels like a
> gimmick. When I teach the double time beats I do a small demo and then ask
> students to find their own beats because we all hear music differently
> (both
> among us people and between different takes of the same song).
>
> Cheers, Oleh K.
> https://TangoSpring.com
>
Interesting - Steven Mitchell, the famous lindy hop teacher and dancer,
pretty much refuses to count anything for his classes (at least the
classes I've been in). What he does do is give the figure or step a
extended rhythmic scat phrase like boop, boop-i-dee BOP!, which usually
matches or contrasts something going on in the music he's using. I've
found it useful in tango, too - find a recurring rhythmic phrase in the
music, and teach the students to vocalize that rhythmic figure while
doing whatever step or sequence we're working on. Some people it helps,
some it doesn't.
--
Michael
Tango Bellingham
www.tangobellingham.com
Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 18:19:25 -0400
From: Jennifer Bratt <gwynhefaire@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Dance arithmetic
Counting is nothing more than a way of marking a place in the music to help
you find where you want to be. It is no different than singing or scatting
to mark your steps, except you're using numbers rather than sounds to
vocalize. Eddie Torres, Mambo King of NYC, has hundreds of shine footwork
patterns. One of steps I've seen him teach he has named 'Ooh Blah Blah Dee y
Ooh Blah Blah Doo'. When the class practices it, their footsteps fall on
the sounds of the name and go perfectly with the music. But Eddie could
just as easily have called his step 'One-And-A-Two y Three-And-A-Four'. Or
'Quick-Quick-A-Slow y Quick-Quick-A-Slow'. Those options are just not as
fun as 'Ooh Blah Blah Dee y Ooh Blah Blah Doo'! Talk about a gimmick to
keep people on beat :)
As for tango, stepping on a timing in vals other than 1 and 1-2 is fairly
unusual and advanced and I think counting would be helpful at first to help
find the right place to step. Counting does not mean you are not
improvising. If you can count the beat, or sing it, or mark it in some way
vocally then that means you can hear it. And if you can hear it then your
chances of getting your whole body to move in harmony with it are much
greater.
abrazos,
Jennifer
* * * * * * * * *
Jennifer Bratt, NYC
www.close-embrace.com
jennifer@close-embrace.com
>From: Michael <michael@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
>Reply-To: Michael <michael@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Dance arithmetic
>Date: Thu, 26 Aug 2004 13:57:23 -0700
>
>Oleh Kovalchuke wrote:
>>I went to a lesson the other day where instructor was teaching how to walk
>>vals on 123-1, 1-34 etc. I have no problem whatsoever dancing on
>>double-time beats. In fact this is how I dance. But when it comes to
>>stepping on specific beats (1-34 for example) I simply cannot count them.
>>I
>>wonder if it is me only and there are some advanced dancers who when they
>>dance do count. Say they think: "I am going to walk next phrase on 123-1
>>and
>>the one afterwards on 1-34". If they do count why do they do that? I
>>simply
>>improvise the steps to the beats on the spot as they come in response to
>>the
>>melody, my partner, the floor, how well I slept last night etc. What s the
>>point to counting?
>>
>>There could be some kind of higher purpose for the students, I guess. It's
>>just that the purpose of counting eludes me and in general feels like a
>>gimmick. When I teach the double time beats I do a small demo and then ask
>>students to find their own beats because we all hear music differently
>>(both
>>among us people and between different takes of the same song).
>>
>>Cheers, Oleh K.
>>https://TangoSpring.com
>>
>
>Interesting - Steven Mitchell, the famous lindy hop teacher and dancer,
>pretty much refuses to count anything for his classes (at least the
>classes I've been in). What he does do is give the figure or step a
>extended rhythmic scat phrase like boop, boop-i-dee BOP!, which usually
>matches or contrasts something going on in the music he's using. I've
>found it useful in tango, too - find a recurring rhythmic phrase in the
>music, and teach the students to vocalize that rhythmic figure while
>doing whatever step or sequence we're working on. Some people it helps,
>some it doesn't.
>--
>Michael
>Tango Bellingham
>www.tangobellingham.com
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 00:00:38 +0100
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@CENDERIS.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Dance arithmetic
Jennifer Bratt <gwynhefaire@HOTMAIL.COM> writes:
[...]
> As for tango, stepping on a timing in vals other than 1 and 1-2 is
> fairly unusual and advanced and I think counting would be helpful at
> first to help find the right place to step. Counting does not mean
> you are not improvising. If you can count the beat, or sing it, or
> mark it in some way vocally then that means you can hear it. And if
> you can hear it then your chances of getting your whole body to move
> in harmony with it are much greater.
I think I'd write it as 1-3, but either is clear, I guess. Eric
Jorissen claimed during a workshop that most people do 1-3, but that a
minority of people don't get that, and naturally do 12-. I don't
think I've ever seen anyone do 12-, and a follower I know (who also
leads, and presumably notices these things more than many followers)
says that few people do that, but I'm sure some do. 1-3 feels most
natural to me, most of the time. I do 12- now and again, just for
variety, and occasionally the music suggests it.
[...]
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 11:13:21 -0700
From: Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Dance arithmetic
I remember the times that I took lessons and hear teachers talk about the
timing in tango, milonga or waltz.
I spent countless hours trying to figure them out, this was very difficult
since I am music challenged, then a teacher, and I don't remember who, give
me that greatest advice, "listen to the music, and just feel it, the numbers
(music timing) will come to you and your partner"
Carlos Rojas
Portland, OR
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Thursday, August 26, 2004 3:01 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Dance arithmetic
Jennifer Bratt <gwynhefaire@HOTMAIL.COM> writes:
[...]
> As for tango, stepping on a timing in vals other than 1 and 1-2 is
> fairly unusual and advanced and I think counting would be helpful at
> first to help find the right place to step. Counting does not mean
> you are not improvising. If you can count the beat, or sing it, or
> mark it in some way vocally then that means you can hear it. And if
> you can hear it then your chances of getting your whole body to move
> in harmony with it are much greater.
I think I'd write it as 1-3, but either is clear, I guess. Eric
Jorissen claimed during a workshop that most people do 1-3, but that a
minority of people don't get that, and naturally do 12-. I don't
think I've ever seen anyone do 12-, and a follower I know (who also
leads, and presumably notices these things more than many followers)
says that few people do that, but I'm sure some do. 1-3 feels most
natural to me, most of the time. I do 12- now and again, just for
variety, and occasionally the music suggests it.
[...]
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 09:41:38 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dance arithmetic
Bruce Stephens <bruce@CENDERIS.DEMON.CO.UK> writes:
> Jennifer Bratt <gwynhefaire@HOTMAIL.COM> writes:
> > As for tango, stepping on a timing in vals other than 1 and
> > 1-2 is fairly unusual and advanced
Well almost, Jennifer. Stepping on 1-3 (also known
to ballroom dancers as the Viennese Waltz canter step) is
neither unusual nor advanced.
> I think I'd write it as 1-3, but either is clear, I guess.
While I could be reading her wrong, I suspect Jennifer
meant 12- in your terminology, Bruce, which I like and will
adopt for the remainder of this posting. In any case,
I wouldn't consider either the 12- or 1-3 to be unusual or
advanced.
> Eric Jorissen claimed during a workshop that most people do
> 1-3, but that a minority of people don't get that, and
> naturally do 12-. I don't think I've ever seen anyone do 12-,
Many (if not most, at least in my experience) Argentines
teach 12-. The most memorably funny class was with Julio and
Corina. Julio was teaching 12-, and I mentioned that some
people dance 1-3, and Corina piped up from the other end of
the room where she was sorting CDs: "Yeah, stupid people!"
Julio laughed and said not to pay attention to Corina, both
styles were acceptable, but he personally preferred the 12-
because it helps him be on time for the next 1 better, and that
when he dances 1-3, he's often a tiny bit late on the next 1.
> and a follower I know (who also leads, and presumably notices
> these things more than many followers) says that few people do
> that, but I'm sure some do.
Hi! :-)
> 1-3 feels most natural to me, most of the time.
My original American teacher, who danced for many years
in all types of dance before ever learning Arg. tango, taught
1-3, and that also felt more natural to me at first. And of
course, it would feel much more natural to anyone who has
previously danced Viennese Waltz. But I found that most of
the Argentines I ran into taught 12-, and now I vastly prefer
it, not for Julio's reason (I have no trouble hitting the
next 1 with either style), but rather because I think it goes
better with the mood of most vals cruzado. It's a bit more
assertive, and just feels more authentic to me. 1-3 seems
lighter and airier, (which goes well with the mood of Viennese),
and 12- feels more grounded (which goes well with the whole
tango genre).
For those of you who, like me, live in the US near
the Mexican border, going from the arguably more natural 1-3
to the 12- is kind of like graduating from flour to corn
tortillas a couple of years after moving here from New York
or Iowa. It's a bit strange at first, a stronger, more
agressive taste, but in no time at all you can't even look
at flour tortillas anymore. Blechh.
Huck, "and you throw away all your 'mild' salsa, too!"
Date: Sat, 28 Aug 2004 00:19:46 +0100
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@CENDERIS.DEMON.CO.UK>
Subject: Re: Dance arithmetic
Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU> writes:
> Bruce Stephens <bruce@CENDERIS.DEMON.CO.UK> writes:
>> Jennifer Bratt <gwynhefaire@HOTMAIL.COM> writes:
>> > As for tango, stepping on a timing in vals other than 1 and
>> > 1-2 is fairly unusual and advanced
>
> Well almost, Jennifer. Stepping on 1-3 (also known
> to ballroom dancers as the Viennese Waltz canter step) is
> neither unusual nor advanced.
>
>> I think I'd write it as 1-3, but either is clear, I guess.
>
> While I could be reading her wrong, I suspect Jennifer meant
> 12- in your terminology, Bruce, which I like and will adopt for the
> remainder of this posting. In any case, I wouldn't consider either
> the 12- or 1-3 to be unusual or advanced.
I don't think so, I think she meant stepping on the first and last
beats of each bar (using UK musical terminology). That's most common,
I think, along with what's usually called single time, where you step
on the first beat of each bar.
[...]
Date: Fri, 27 Aug 2004 19:20:08 -0700
From: Ricardo Tanturi <tanturi999@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Dance arithmetic
First, it seems to me that 1-3 and 1-2 are both used in tango vals. And it
seems to me that if you dance a 1-3 or a 1-2 measure rather than just a walking
beat on the 1, you would usually want to follow the feel of the music. So I
don't really understand Huck's teachers' statements about using a 1-3 or 1-2
"system" - it seems to me that you would want to learn to dance it both ways,
and then fit it to the music as you improvise.
In the music, some measures have the regular ONE-two-three feel, and others
have a definite feel of 1-2 or 1-3. My musical skills aren't good enough to
identify for sure the 1-2 and 1-3 measures without listenening many times, but
I have some piano scores for some of my favorite valses, and I think that at
least in some cases it is pretty easy to find 1-2 and 1-3 measures. In the
valses I looked at, the 1-3 seems to be about twice as common as the 1-2.
--------
Second, for Oleh's original question - why count rather than just feel it? --
For me, at milongas I try to connect with my partner and the music and just
dance what I feel. The problem is, that what I "feel" is just what I'm most
familiar with, and I get sort of stuck in a rut. The only way I know out of
the rut is to force myself, in practice, to dance new things that I'm not so
familiar with, and repeat whatever it is until I'm really comfortable with it.
So for vals 1-2 vs 1-3, this is where I would have to count - to make sure that
I'm able to dance it both ways, and not just the one way I'm comfortable with
every time. (If you're quite sure that you can identify in real time some
measures as 1-3 and others as 1-2, and dance them that way, then you wouldn't
have to count, but I don't think most people can do that.) Even the most
advanced musicians often count to learn new phrasing, and I think it should
work for dancers too.
"Ricardo"
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