3572 differences in styles
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 13:13:13 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: differences in styles
The question about differences in Salon Tango Close Embrace and Milonguero
Style was addressed by Manuel to Janis so I am answering to those that asked
me, I hope that Janis will answer Manuel.
Some of the differences of those styles are:
Milonguero Style
Tango walk on two parallel lines that fall right under the hips. (Susana
Miller). This affords good equilibrium.
Weight of the body distributed on the whole foot .
Apilado embrace.
The chests are kept together throughout the duration of the dance, the
torsos parallel to each other. There is a shared axis.
Ocho milonguero. The hips drift in the opposite direction from that of the
direction of the movement. Back ochos crossing the legs without shifting the
hips. This is done so that the bodies do not separate.
Embellishments are few sacadas, some low boleos, some occasional amague. La
calesita.
Turns are usually done with small turning steps or rocking movements.
The lead is very much centered in the chest movement.
Traditional Salon close embrace
Tango walk on one line (as seen in the pictures just published). The
equilibrium becomes a problem when walking this way. This is overcome by
practice (Lampazo and others in Villa Urquiza) or by turning the foot
outwards (about 30 degrees). This way of walking is more elegant.
Landing on the toes as one walks.
Lampazo and others in Villa Urquiza will do the tango walk landing heel
first.
Most dancers of this style attempt to land on the toes most of the time but
they all land on their heels part of the time.
Close embrace of different degree maintaining two axis during the duration
of the dance. Each partner on his own axis.
Ochos with shifting of the hip. One points the hip in the direction of the
movement and then steps.
This is possible by an elastic embrace that allows a minimal separation when
needed.
Embellishments are any one that the space available allows. Low boleos,
amagues, barridas, enrosques, etc.
Turns done in a multiplicity of ways. Walking with sacadas, pivot turns,
during enrosques, rocking, cunitas, etc.
The lead is centered in the chest movements but with assistance from the
arms and hands when required by the opening of the embrace, (should this
occur). Most people maintain a close embrace throughout the dance.
There are obvious differences when it comes to teach Milonguero style. The
above explanation refers to Susan Miller's instruction. Tete has his own
style as well as Cacho Dante.
Tete leads more with his abdomen, he has some sequences when he moves
backwards. His dancing is extremely spiritual, relaxed and beautiful.
Cacho Dante has a more elegant way of dancing milonguero style.
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 14:20:56 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: differences in styles
Hola Sergio,
It's always good to read your posts. I appreciate your serious attempts at
edificating the folks on the list. It's also good to hear from somebody who
actually knows how to dance. Otherwise it's like the blind leading the deaf
(pardon the pun). Anyways, my question is not idle and although I read and
understood your answer, it does not really clarify the issue because there
appears to be some other "milonguero" style that I'm not aware of.
Your clear and intelligent answer spells out what I've known from
observation and discussions, classes, etc. over the last 10+ years. The
reason I ask Janis is because she's said before that Susana Miller, Tete,
Cacho Dante, etc. are not milonguero style dancers. However, here in the USA
as well as in other places, it's generally accepted that S. Miller, Tete,
Cacho et al, are indeed "milonguero" style dancers. Actually, here in the
USA there is a definite polarization of tango dancers based on "styles".
What I mostly see, hear and understand is that there are 2 basic camps. One
is the self described "milonguero" style (as described by Susana Miller,
etc.) and pretty much everybody else.
Janis OTOH, has said before that there are yet other, real milongueros who
dance the true milonguero style of tango. I've had a couple of
communications with her about this and she even told me that the
"milongueros" who were invited and danced for the public at several of the
CITA's in BAires, were not real milongueros, so I think they don't dance the
real milonguero style. The same thing can be said about all the other so
called "milonguero style" dancers that I'm aware of. There must be some
subtle or perhaps hugely apparent difference of style between the
milongueros that I know or seen dance and the ones that Janis is talking
about. This is why I would really like to see some good footage of all these
different dancers to see and understand these differences.
Thanks,
Manuel
Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2005 17:25:37 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: differences in styles
This is not just a silly semantic argument.
Nor is it an argument about whether one style is good or not.
All these styles are variants derived from the 1940s tango explosion
in Buenos Aires.
It is very useful if people understand what you mean when you
advertise a teacher, a workshop or a festival or try to explain what
style a visiting teacher is presenting.
Or, let's say you want to advise a N. American going to Buenos Aires.
You have to be able to tell them at which milongas they will find
people doing their style. Or, if you want to get partners at the
afternoon "ABC Milongai", then you really need to know "XYZ style".
LUMPERS vs SPLITTERS
It is useful to have style categories specific enough to be defined
and identified, but broad enough to have multiple teachers, hundreds
or thousands of practitioners and some diversity within the category.
It is not useful to be so specific that only one or six people do
that style.
On the other hand it doesn't help to conflate everything into one style.
MILONGUERO
Defining feature is very close embrace and extensive use of rock-
steps, ocho cortados, and very tight turns.
Janis is too specific in claiming only a small handful of remaining
milonguero dancers from the 1940s are qualified to teach milonguero.
Whether Janis likes the name or not, the meaning of "Milonguero Style
Tango" is pretty well understood these days. You see the term used by
multiple teachers in Buenos Aires and the US. This is the style
taught by Susana, Tete, and many others.
This is the style used by 95% of the dancers at the afternoon
milongas in Buenos Aires.
This style might be be typical of 10 or 20% of the teachers and
dancing in the US.
SOCIAL SALON
Defining feature is pivoting ochos and open or elastic embrace that
permits them. Also, circular turns with sacadas more dominant than
rock-steps or ocho-cortados.
For me, Sergio's description of "1940s Tango" is too broad, because
he wants to use a lot of elements typical of fantasia and stage such
as "barridas, ganchos, boleos, wraps, pencils", that are possible,
but aren't really typical of social dancing.
This confuses the social vs fantasy distinction, and hides the extent
to which the FANTASY form of argentine tango dominates in the US.
Categories are more descriptive (for the observer or the consumer) if
"1940s Tango" is split into "Social 1940s Style" and "Fantasy 1940s
Style".
Since I did not see much "1940s Social Tango" in Buenos Aires last
month, I'd like to have someone else make a list of the the Milongas
in Buenos Aires that dance social tango, but do not dance "Milonguero
Style".
This style might be 20% of the teachers and dancing in the US?
FANTASY
Defining feature is ignoring the line of dance and extensive use of
barridas, ganchos, boleos, wraps, pencils, etc.
If you split 1940s tango into Social and Fantasy variants, I notice
that a very high percentage of traveling teachers present the Fantasy
variant, not the Social one.
You read their curricula or the advertising, you notice that they are
primarily known for their stage skills. You look at the figures they
teach and they don't make sense for a social dance floor.
In most US cities, and at most milongas in the US you see extensive
use of Fantasy vocabulary, and absence of traditional line-of-dance.
You see wide open-embrace and lots of lunges, paradas and shoe-shines.
I have no idea what percentage of dancers in Buenos Aires dance
Fantasy in a social setting, i.e. a milonga.
This style might be 40-60% of the dancing at milongas in the US.
(Down from 80-90% Five years ago. This style might be 60-80% of the
instruction in the US
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org
2525 Birch St
Denver, CO 80207
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 14:04:18 -0300
From: ENCUENTRO TANGO <encuentrotango@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: differences in styles
Hello and let me introduce myself to the forum. My name is Nina Tatarowicz
and I am a tango dancer and teacher currently residing in the Chicago and
Milwaukee area. I recently moved back to the States from Buenos Aires where
I was living a total of 3 years, primarily to train and work in the tango
community. I wanted to make a comment on this posting regarding styles of
tango prevalent in BA in comparison to the US/ other countries.
I returned to the Chicago/ Milwaukee area to give workshops a few times
during my years in BA, and during these visits I began to see that tango
dancers in the States tend to harbor a view of the dance that is much
narrower than what I experienced in Buenos Aires. They think that if they
dance estilo milonguero they cannot/ should not dance social salon or
ever incorporate fantasy steps to their dance. I disagree with this
notion, as do many tango dancers that I know and respect in Buenos Aires.
In fact, I distinctly remember chatting with a very well known and respected
milonguero about this in Chicago. We were both in the city around that
time giving classes. He was from the estilo milonguero style, and I
consider myself a teacher of a modern salon style, focusing more on organic
body movement and elastic connection. During a milonga, we observed the
dancers and commented to each other what a shame it was that many students
choose to take sides in their tango, almost boycotting any style that
veers from their own. If, instead, these students could see the value and
beauty in the diversity of styles, they would learn much more about the
essence of tango, how to express themselves better in their dance and
understand how to dance with all in the milonga.
The difference that I see in Buenos Aires is that the dancers know the time,
place, and most importantly, HOW to dance in different settings. For
example, it would be inconsiderate and unacceptable to lead a huge lunge to
the side or a long back voleo on a small, crowded dance floor: collisions
with another dance couple would be almost inevitable! However, just because
the majority of couples are dancing estilo milonguero at this milonga does
not mean that another couple cannot dance their own salon style here. It
just means that they need to be conscious of the flow of the dance floor and
not violate the space of other couples. This is not impossible, only more
challenging.
I have had the experience of dancing with very experienced tango dancers who
have lead me in and out of barridas, sacadas, giros, voleos, changes of
direction, colgadas and volcadas you name it!on a crowded dance floor,
without disrupting the flow of the dance floor or other individual couples.
The key to this is to not only to maintain a very intimate connection with
your partner, but to be acutely aware of what is going on around you. The
one more essential element to this is the one element that seems to be
missing from many tango communities I have visited in the States. This key
element is two-fold: one, dancers should understand the way that tango as
a social dance should be navigated on the dance floor, regardless of the
amount of couples you are sharing the floor with; two, dancers should
abide by the flow of dance on the milonga floor in any particular situation.
In Buenos Aires, even a novice leader can see how important this idea is by
observing any milonga situation. He will see that, just as the partners in
an individual couple are connected with each other as they turn this way and
that in their dance, the couples on the milonga floor are also connected.
An observer from above may note that all the couples are dancing together,
creating a swirling ring of movement that circulates in a counter-clockwise
direction. In order to form this ring of movement, leaders need to
communicate with each other throughout the duration of each tango:
respecting other couples by avoiding figures which would violate their
space, continuing the flow of the dance (ie not stopping too long in one
spot thereby stopping traffic) and advancing forward in the line of dance
(ie not crossing horizontally across the dance floor).
If leaders understand this from the beginning, a milonga will have always
have the desired flow no matter the amount of couples, and couples will have
the freedom to dance whatever style they choose.
In the US, many people begin dancing tango without this essential
understanding and without the possibility of observing many milongas that
demonstrate this desired flow. So they think that the object of dancing
tango is to learn how to lead/follow the coolest figures in order to impress
their partners. Leaders in Buenos Aires are normally much more timid to
first go out onto the dance floor for this reason: they understand that
knowing how to effectively navigate is just as important as knowing how to
lead a few figures.
There is nothing wrong and perhaps everything right!about learning cool
new figures to add to ones repertoire. The problem arises when this is the
ONLY thing that one learns for their social dance, or when one thinks that
it is the most important. We all feel a great amount of satisfaction when
we conquer a challenge (like learning a cool new figure). What should be
emphasized in our studies to the same degree, however, should be the beauty
of achieving a milonga dance floor that circulates smoothly and fluidly. To
attain this goal should also create a great deal of satisfaction for all
social dancers. Once they have mastered this concept, they will be able to
incorporate their mastered figures into their social dance whatever style
it may bewith more ease and without disrupting other couples.
So in Buenos Aires, I may be able to dance an open salon style in the
beginning or end of any milonga, when there are not so many dancers on the
floor. Even if we are the only couple on the floor, we still follow the
line of dance, as this concept is an essential part of the social dance. In
the peak hours, perhaps my partners and I will have to dance in a much
closer embrace and limit our fancy moves as we navigate more with space
limitations. However, this can also be the most fun and inspirational part
of the evening, to see how creatively we can use the limited amount of
space, or how connected we can stay with each other amidst the traffic jams
and distractions of other couples.
I look at it like a comment on life itself: the more we can learn how to
dance together, the more freedom we have to express ourselves individually.
Date: Mon, 4 Jul 2005 15:28:54 -0400
From: David Allen <dsaj@MINDSPRING.COM>
Subject: Re: differences in styles
Nina Tatarowicz wrote:
"I wanted to make a comment on this posting regarding styles of
tango prevalent in BA in comparison to the US/ other countries.
They think that if they
dance estilo milonguero they cannot/ should not dance social salon or
ever incorporate fantasy steps to their dance. I disagree with this
notion.
The difference that I see in Buenos Aires is that the dancers know the time,
place, and most importantly, HOW to dance in different settings."
Her post was long and informative. I agree with her and would shorten the reason to say simply that most tango dancers in the USA and other =
places ARE NOT TAUGHT HOW TO DANCE tango. Knowing some or a lot of steps does not make one a dancer. Especially in tango one has to know =
how to use one's body for the walk, the posture, the embrace(any style), etc. One has to be taught the line of dance, respect for other couples =
on the floor and how to "tighten up" the dance.
As an example, I was dancing in Santa Fe, NM. At that time the dancers were taught by Michael and Lauren. I dance apilado and the dance there =
was more open salon style. While dancing a tango I saw a space open up in front of me. I moved to take that space. As I was moving into the =
vacated space the leader in front of me began to lead a "back secada". I thought, we are going to collide. I started a turn so it would be me =
instead of my partner. At the same time the other leader noticed the same thing. He still did the back secada, only he straightened it up =
and did it smaller as I tightened up my turn and did it smaller.. We did not collide. I made sure I complimented him on his execution.
It was then I realized any style of tango dance could be compatible as long as the leaders and the followers KNEW HOW TO DANCE and were =
continually aware of the other dancers on the floor.
Respectfully,
David Allen
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 02:40:54 -0400
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: differences in styles
I was out of town enjoying the holiday doing something that had NOTHING to
do with tango. I gave up tango for the weekend for my former favorite hobby
that tango knocked out of first place with a strong gancho. I didn't have a
chance to participate in the discussion on differences in style.
I'm NOT arguing nor correcting anything that has been written. I'm just
giving my understanding of Milonguero vs. Apilado.
Hot and cold are opposite ends of a thermometer. Milonguero and Apilado are
not like hot and cold because they are not are opposite ends of the same
measuring stick.
From my classes with Susana Miller, I remember her saying, "Uno.
Uno-dos-tres." The rhythm was Slow, Quick, Quick, Slow. In terms of the
leader's steps, it was forward left (slow), close right (quick), shift
weight to the left (quick), shift weight to the right (slow.) This was
continuously repeated. Because of the crowded dance floors, you can't cover
much space so weight changes were something to do until space opened up. An
ocho cortado would be lead to the same cadence instead of the weight
changes.
Apilado has NOTHING to do with cadence. Apilado has to do with the embrace,
which in this case means close.
So, Milonguero style means a specific cadence and apilado means close
embrace. Milonguero style is danced in close embrace but milonguero doesn't
mean close embrace. Some people interpret Milonguero style to mean close
embrace.
It's now 2:30 am in Washington, DC. Now that I got that off my chest, maybe
now I can go back to sleep.
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Back to work today.
Date: Tue, 5 Jul 2005 10:43:50 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: differences in styles - what Apilado is
Michael,
Apilado is not just a close embrace.
It is special close embrace - with lean. Actual leaning.
Apilado is the close embrace with definitive leaning. All the time.
I relation to the amount of leaning ( from 0 to 45 degrees), the position of
bodies ( from "strictly in front" - to "completely on the side" ) it is
possible to distinguish many styles. And these are not just theoretical
possibilities, but actually what different dancers dance, now or in the
past. All of them are good.
Each of the positions require some adaptation of so to speak leg-work, and
methods of lead and follow especially in different floor situations. And
each of the positions provides its unique possibilities.
It means that Apilado requires some specific leg-work different from many
other close-embrace styles.
Milonguero term has nothing to do with body positions, that is right. I
would say that right now it is a cumulative term for several types of close
embrace. Different people give a different meaning to this word - from what
Susana Miller teaches, to "the way they dance in Buenos Aires on the very
crowded floor", to "good dancing in very close embrace". But they in BA
dance in many styles in terms of leaning and positions. That means that
"Milonguero" term is not very precise.
Anyway, I prefer to stick to the second one since Susana Miller teaches her
own interpretation of what is danced in Buenos Aires and with her own
specific methods.
Unfortunately, there are few people, who dance with leaning around here. So
it is difficult for me to illustrate how different ( and great ) from what
conventionally taught this method is just writing about it here.
There are some people who say "No leaning, leaning is bad", or "it is an
illusion of leaning, not just actual leaning". They are wrong.
The best known example of a dancer dancing in Apilado style is Gavito. But
being a showmen he changes the style all the time to make the dance more
attractive as a show - that is the characteristic of the stage dance.
I personally know young professional famous teachers who teach in Apilado
style and I personally know how to dance in this style. And I can show it to
you at the dance floor if you ask me about it.
Igor Polk
Date: Wed, 6 Jul 2005 12:05:24 -0700
From: Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Some tango-L 4th of July! (was "differences in styles")
This is in response to the recent 4th of July posting by Nina Tatarowicz from "ENCUENTRO TANGO"
<encuentrotango@HOTMAIL.COM>.
I do not have the time or inclination to check the tango-L archive often, or to read all messages;
and I have, thank goodness, some very handy rules of thumb to bypass what will almost surely be a
waste of time, or a vexation to the soul for no good purpose at all.
Today I am scanning through lots of stuff and here is this message by Nina of Chicago / Milwaukee
- BAs - Chicago / Milwaukee, and I am stopping for the day ... maybe for the month, let me leave
on -- and live for a while off -- this great note. This is possibly the best posting (using my own
tastes as criteria, as usual) that I have ever read on the Tango-L. Nay, not just the best, but
very good: 100% sensible, bearing on subjects having most practical significance, no cockamamie
ideas "made in" no matter what country, no tango bigotry, no absurd inventions, no nonsense ... I
have read her contribution four times, slowly. I have not a syllable to disagree with a whit, and
much to applaud enthusiastically.
This is her "first novel", and puts seasoned (or is it stale?) writers, myself included if you
will, to shame. She talks about navigation, right on the nose, while some great experts among my
older colleagues have not in years or decades figured out yet what is meant by teaching the ronda
to first-hour beginners. They still think, and will for ever think, I suppose, that navigation
means the art of dodging chaotic traffic while weaving through the dance lanes, big.
As to "styles" I hope she does not meet with the fate of myself and others, whose non-bigotry (and
non-blindness), has earned them the ill-will of uncritical or self-serving true believers of every
kind. (And, goodness gracious, there are so many kinds ...)
It would be great if Nina's thinking, eloquence and style could be emulated once in a while by a
few other listeros. It might turn things around enough so that the list no longer sounded kind of
(slightly?) insane. But this could be just my impression ...
Meanwhile I am getting ready to travel one of these days back to the USA Midwest of yesteryear,
hoping to find entire floors of dancers informed by the ideas and practices put forth in this
great posting. I hope to cut not too bad a figure there.
Saludos,
