2586 The embrace and the style
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:32:08 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: The embrace and the style
What differentiates tango styles is the foot work not the embrace.
Milonguero : male person inclined to patronize dancing places. (it has
other meanings as well).
To dance with a milonguero is not the same as dancing * Milonguero Style.
You can dance with a milonguero in salon style or any other style.
Close embrace is one of the names used in reference to Milonguero Style but
Salon is also danced in close embrace.
Argentine Tango is only one, but it has different styles. Those styles are
infinite: some personal way of dancing of each couple. From all those styles
there are certain groups that prefer to dance in certain way.
If you ask an Argentinean what do you dance he will say "Tango". If you
insist what style, he will answer Salon (meaning social dance) in contrast
to Stage tango. This person may be dancing like Susana Miller (milonguero)
or like Fabian Salas (Nuevo) or like Nito and Elba, Diego and Carolina,
Osvaldo and Lorena, and most of the other instructors (Salon).
I am in great part responsible for popularizing this terminology in North
America . Terminology that is not much used either in Argentina, Europe or
Japan.
Milonguera : same as milonguero in reference to a woman. Also a woman hired
to dance at nocturnal places such as a cabaret or a dancing hall.
Milonguera and milonguerita : woman of low moral standards, some sort of
dancer and prostitute.
Estilo milonguero: A particular style of dancing tango with a selection of
steps and technique proper to dance in crowded places. The way Susana
Miller, Cacho Dante and Tete dance. It is danced in close embrace.
Salon Style is the form used by most instructors and dancers all over the
world. It is generally danced in close embrace but it will use an open
embrace as needed to perform certain figures to then return to the close
embrace to continue dancing. There are instances when the dancing couple
will mostly use an open embrace and there are others when the couple dancing
salon uses only a close embrace. It can be very simple (Tango Liso) mostly
walked with very few figures, mostly ochos or very elaborated with the use
of embellishments and complex figures.
Milonguero style uses a foot work that is typical for this form of dancing
and a special technique that is adjusted to crowded conditions. it is always
danced in close embrace. This dos not mean that when you dance in close
embrace you are dancing Milonguero, most likely you may be dancing salon.
Salon has all the possibilities and ornaments including the use of all the
steps of Milonguero. Milonguero and Nuevo tango take a selection of steps
and moves from Salon to define there particular way of dancing.
In Summary: Salon is mostly danced in close embrace and at times in open
embrace or alternating the embrace. Nuevo has an elastic embrace that
adjusts to the figures being danced, milonguero uses close embrace only.
What differentiates the styles other than technique is the foot work, not
the embrace.
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 23:46:57 -0600
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: The embrace and the style
Sergio wrote:
< What differentiates tango styles is the footwork not the embrace>
Sorry Sergio but I disagree on this one big time. I believe there is more
than the footwork and the embrace that characterize a tango style i.e.,
tango salon.
What I have experienced is that visiting tango instructors who at the
beginning emphasized elegance, posture, smooth walking, extensive walking
exercises eventually gave in to teaching figures by fear of losing
popularity or students. The truth as I gathered is that not everybody was
prepared or interested enough on continuing improving their posture and
elegance nor acquire the dance skills to create their own tango dance style.
The information I have gathered is that historically Tango Salon when
recognized as a constituted style (1910 - 1916) had well known
characteristics. Some of the characteristics from the era gone by are
practiced and were enforced throughout the recent Tango Salon Competition in
Buenos Aires. What remains accepted nowadays from the ear gone by comes from
the popular dances in Buenos Aires. For example: the upright and elegant
posture of the dancers, dancers concentrated on the music not wanting to
lose the compass, and therefore looking serious, the absence of heel taps,
lateral hip movements, and contoneos or quebradas, the weight of the body
resting either on the ball of the feet (media punta), or on the sole (planta
del pie).
The dancers, Lito (77) & Lidia Filipinni (70), who were top awarded at the
last Tango Salon competition excelled primarily in elegance and posture.
When you say that the embrace is not an issue in describing a tango style it
invites ambiguity, because open embrace entertains the idea that is
acceptable to loosen up the hold to the point where it gives the impression
that dancers could do without it.
Bruno
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:08:05 -0400
From: John Gleeson <john.gleeson@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: The embrace and the style
As explained to me in BsAs last year by a long-time Tango dancer:
Milonguero Style: characterised by a very close embrace and small
tickety-tick footwork, including Ochos Cortados
(taught by "Suzanna Miller" under the name "Close
Embrace" style; also called Apilado style).
A small minority of people dance this style in BsAS
but it is gaining popularity again.
Salon: characterised by an open embrace, and more open footwork steps
such as fwd/bkwd Ochos, Molinettes, Walks, Sacadas,
Ganchos, Boleos, etc
Mixed: The style danced in BsAs by the majority of Tango dancers, using
the close embrace posture/hold, but dancing Salon steps.
I'm sure this will get some flames, but this not my definition. This came
from "the horse's mouth" so to speak.
Cheers, John G.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 7:32 PM
Subject: [TANGO-L] The embrace and the style
> What differentiates tango styles is the foot work not the embrace.
>
> Milonguero : male person inclined to patronize dancing places. (it has
> other meanings as well).
>
> To dance with a milonguero is not the same as dancing * Milonguero Style.
> You can dance with a milonguero in salon style or any other style.
>
> Close embrace is one of the names used in reference to Milonguero Style but
> Salon is also danced in close embrace.
>
> Argentine Tango is only one, but it has different styles. Those styles are
> infinite: some personal way of dancing of each couple. From all those styles
> there are certain groups that prefer to dance in certain way.
>
> If you ask an Argentinean what do you dance he will say "Tango". If you
> insist what style, he will answer Salon (meaning social dance) in contrast
> to Stage tango. This person may be dancing like Susana Miller (milonguero)
> or like Fabian Salas (Nuevo) or like Nito and Elba, Diego and Carolina,
> Osvaldo and Lorena, and most of the other instructors (Salon).
>
> I am in great part responsible for popularizing this terminology in North
> America . Terminology that is not much used either in Argentina, Europe or
> Japan.
>
> Milonguera : same as milonguero in reference to a woman. Also a woman hired
> to dance at nocturnal places such as a cabaret or a dancing hall.
>
> Milonguera and milonguerita : woman of low moral standards, some sort of
> dancer and prostitute.
>
> Estilo milonguero: A particular style of dancing tango with a selection of
> steps and technique proper to dance in crowded places. The way Susana
> Miller, Cacho Dante and Tete dance. It is danced in close embrace.
>
> Salon Style is the form used by most instructors and dancers all over the
> world. It is generally danced in close embrace but it will use an open
> embrace as needed to perform certain figures to then return to the close
> embrace to continue dancing. There are instances when the dancing couple
> will mostly use an open embrace and there are others when the couple dancing
> salon uses only a close embrace. It can be very simple (Tango Liso) mostly
> walked with very few figures, mostly ochos or very elaborated with the use
> of embellishments and complex figures.
>
> Milonguero style uses a foot work that is typical for this form of dancing
> and a special technique that is adjusted to crowded conditions. it is always
> danced in close embrace. This dos not mean that when you dance in close
> embrace you are dancing Milonguero, most likely you may be dancing salon.
>
> Salon has all the possibilities and ornaments including the use of all the
> steps of Milonguero. Milonguero and Nuevo tango take a selection of steps
> and moves from Salon to define there particular way of dancing.
>
> In Summary: Salon is mostly danced in close embrace and at times in open
> embrace or alternating the embrace. Nuevo has an elastic embrace that
> adjusts to the figures being danced, milonguero uses close embrace only.
> What differentiates the styles other than technique is the foot work, not
> the embrace.
>
>
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 09:14:58 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: The embrace and the style
I'm not sure Sergio should claim responsibility for the popularity of
tango terms outside Buenos Aires, as all these terms and others have
been floating about since the mid 1990s. For example, Stephen Brown
parses tango styles in more detail than I would at his website:
https://www.tejastango.com/tango_styles.html
I understand that Sergio was trying to point out a couple of things,
including that
(1) the language is sloppy, especially across the cultural divide
(2) styles are given different names in different places, in particular
Buenos Aires.
(3) tango in Buenos Aires is always danced close or very close, so the
term close-embrace doesn't mean much there. Only outside Buenos Aires
do you find many people dancing open or at arms length.
We might consider why argentines needed the term "tango de salon", but
they don't really distinguish too many other styles. Why don't they
have separate names for the various styles between the neighborhoods?
Salon is in contrast to what? Tango canyengue? Tango reo, (street
tango)? Tango Fantasia?
In the 1930s, tango got "cleaned up" and brought into the middle
classes. Those street kids (tattoos, leathers, flashing gang signs),
were thrown out because they didn't show the proper decorum for a
family social dance: ganchos, lunges, boleos.
So, tango de salon has a lot of meaning, whereas distinctions within
salon aren't so important.
In addition, we have labels some teachers put on their classes. Susana
Miller and Cacho Dante's "estilo milonguero" is essentially the same as
Tete's "tango salon" and other's "confiteria style". These are all
reasonable short-hand ways of saying "The way they danced at Almagro on
Tuesdays in the mid 1990s."
I'm somewhat astonished that John Gleeson was told by a "long-time
tango dancer", a "horse's mouth", that ganchos and boleos are typical
of the Salon tango of Buenos Aires. Maybe the definition of Salon tango
has changed even within Buenos Aires?
On Jul 29, 2004, at 7:08 AM, John Gleeson wrote:
> As explained to me in BsAs last year by a long-time Tango dancer:
>
> Milonguero Style: characterised by a very close embrace and small
> tickety-tick footwork, including Ochos
> Cortados
> (taught by "Suzanna Miller" under the
> name "Close
> Embrace" style; also called Apilado
> style).
> A small minority of people dance this
> style in BsAS
> but it is gaining popularity again.
>
> Salon: characterised by an open embrace, and more open footwork
> steps
> such as fwd/bkwd Ochos, Molinettes,
> Walks, Sacadas,
> Ganchos, Boleos, etc
>
> Mixed: The style danced in BsAs by the majority of Tango dancers,
> using
> the close embrace posture/hold, but dancing Salon
> steps.
>
> I'm sure this will get some flames, but this not my definition. This
> came
> from "the horse's mouth" so to speak.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
> To: <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
> Sent: Wednesday, July 28, 2004 7:32 PM
> Subject: [TANGO-L] The embrace and the style
>
>
>> What differentiates tango styles is the foot work not the embrace.
>> ...
>> I am in great part responsible for popularizing this terminology in
>> North
>> America . Terminology that is not much used either in Argentina,
>> Europe or
>> Japan.
>> ...
>> In Summary: Salon is mostly danced in close embrace and at times in
>> open
>> embrace or alternating the embrace. Nuevo has an elastic embrace that
>> adjusts to the figures being danced, milonguero uses close embrace
>> only.
>> What differentiates the styles other than technique is the foot work,
>> not
>> the embrace.
Tom Stermitz
2525 Birch St
Denver, CO 80207
h: 303-388-2560
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 16:11:56 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: The embrace and the style
Tom wrote:
>Stephen Brown parses tango styles in more detail than
>I would at his website:
> https://www.tejastango.com/tango_styles.html
What I have tried to do in my website is is sort through the different
terms used in the United States to identify styles of Argentine tango.
As Tom points out, the terminology I use may not be universally accepted..
>[L]anguage is sloppy, especially across the cultural divide.
>... Susana Miller and Cacho Dante's "estilo milonguero" is
>essentially the same as Tete's "tango salon" and other's
>"confiteria style".
And there is at least one Argentine couple teaching tango in the tradition
of Todaro, who identify their teaching as confiteria style.
I agree with Tom that these terms were largely intended to distinguish the
tango that was danced in salons and clubs from that danced by street kids
and others on the margins of society.
Consistent with Jennifer's comments, I think it is fair to say that there
are two broad directions in tango dancing, and a principal difference is
in the approach to rhythm:
>Guys who I consider 'milonguero' ... feel very staccato
>and sharp... Guys who feel more 'salon' to me ... take
>on a smoother, flowing, more lyrical quality.
Considering the historical roots of these two approaches to dancing, I
have tended to see milonguero and salon styles as different (if not fully
distinct). The milonguero style probably has a direct lineage to the
tango that was danced by the lower class including, and its staccato
elements likely originated in their dancing. The salon style probably had
its beginnings in tango liso which was a smooth, unadorned version of
tango that was popular with the middle class in the 1920s and early 30s.
As Brian Dunn writes staccato and lyrical are descriptions of musical
qualities:
>To my ear, danceable tango music, whether D'Arienzo or Pugliese or
>Libedinsky, is filled with both staccato and smooth qualities at
>different times, with of course infinitely subtle and delightful
>gradations in between the two polarities.
So dancers, such as Brian may simply be adjusting their movements to what
they hear in the music and not making a distinction between salon and
milonguero styles, while other dancers may always stick to staccato
movements and others may always dance smoothly and lyrically.
Certainly, it is misleading to identify the differences in style by the
closeness of embrace. As Tom wrote:
>[T]ango in Buenos Aires is always danced close or very close, so
>the term close-embrace doesn't mean much there. Only outside Buenos
>Aires do you find many people dancing open or at arms length.
The approach to turns can differ. Some couples separate slightly on turns
to allow the woman to rotate her hips through her turning steps. Other
couples keep the embrace close and the woman steps at an angle to complete
her turns. Like Sergio, I have observed that the technique that requires
a separation in turns is part of the salon-style tango and the technique
that doesn't allow for separation is part of the milonguero-style.
The embrace can also differ. Some couples use apilado embrace, in which the two dancers are directly in front of each other with the woman's right
shoulder as close to her partner's left shoulder as her left is to his
right, their torsos touch from the tummy through the solar plexus while
allowing a bit of distance between their feet, and her left arm is draped
around his neck. Some couples use an upright posture and embrace in an
offset (with each dancer's center slightly to the right of their partner's
center) and in a V (with the woman's left shoulder closer to the man's
right shoulder than her right is to his left shoulder). Again, the
apilado embrace with the appearance of a lean is a characteristic of
milonguero-style tango, and the offset V with an upright posture is a
characteristic of salon-style tango.
So one the whole, I am comfortable with the idea that there are at least
two social styles of Argentine tango--milonguero and salon.
Milonguero = staccato movement, no separation for turns, apilado embrace
with the appearance of a lean.
Salon = smooth movement, a slight separation for turns, offset V embrace
with an upright posture.
Of course, individual dancers create their own variations.
Is it reasonable to parse styles a little farther? I also identify nuevo,
liquid, club, orillero, canyengue and fantasia.
Nuevo -- Nuevo tango was originally intended as an analysis of tango
movement, but for some dancers, nuevo tango has taken on some dimensions
of a style. I have identified it as a style, but some disagree with that
categorization.
Liquid -- Some younger dancers have combined nuevo and milonguero elements
and consider themselves as dancing a new style, which I have heard called
liquid-style tango.
Club--Club-style tango combines the rhythmic sensibilities of milonguero-style
tango with slight separations in the turns and an offset V embrace with an
upright posture.
Orillero -- Orillero is an older style of dancing tango. From its name,
it means the tango danced by those who were on the margins of society, and
likely refers to the unrefined dancing of the street kids and those from
outlying tenements. Among it's distinguishing characateristics are a
staccato approach to rhythm and playful, space-consuming embellishments and figures that do not always
respect the line of dance. Some of its more exotic movements have found their way into salon tango
and fantasia, while the staccato rhythm likely found its way into
milonguero-style tango.
I would say that orillero is disappearing, but that seems to be
contradictory to recent discussions about dancing at milongas! ;-)
Canyengue -- Canyengue is a historical form of tango that was danced in the 1920s and
early 30s that has been revived by a few tango historians.
Fantasia -- Fantasia is a combination of social tango movements with
ballet and modern dance intended for the stage.
Is that too much parsing? I will let you be the judge.
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 12:51:06 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: The embrace and the style
Stephen Brown writes:
> Milonguero = staccato movement, no separation for turns, apilado embrace
> with the appearance of a lean.
> Salon = smooth movement, a slight separation for turns, offset V embrace
> with an upright posture.
I'm going to go along with Brian and dismiss
the staccato/smooth distinction, which I believe
to be a function of interpretation varying with
the music being played rather than an indicator
of whether or not one dances apilado (so-called
"milonguero").
Huck
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 17:40:43 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: The embrace and the style
Huck wrote:
>I'm going to go along with Brian and dismiss
>the staccato/smooth distinction, which I believe
>to be a function of interpretation varying with
>the music being played
I can't disagree with Huck or Brian. For many dancers, rhythmic
interpretation does vary with the music.
Nonetheless, a rhythmic distinction between styles reflects a historical
separation in the approaches to tango. In the years leading up to the
golden age, the society orchestras led by Canaro, Fresedo and Donato
deemphasized the staccato rhythm in their playing, the dancers responded
by creating the smooth Tango Liso style, and dancing in a staccato rhythm
was actually considered outside the bounds of middle-class acceptability.
Tango Liso evolved into salon-style tango.
The D'Arienzo orchestra emerged with a strong staccato sound and provided
renewed support for a staccato approach to dancing. The rhythmic
approaches to tango separated by neighborhood, with the smoother
approaches gaining dominance in the northern neighborhoods such as
Belgrano, and the more rhythmic approaches gaining dominance in the
southern neighborhoods. To this day, some older Argentines insist on
dancing smoothly even to D'Arienzo, and a few will dance staccato to Di
Sarli.
Todaro (and others) developed a modern salon style with smooth rhythmic
sensibilites, the 8CB, and some orillero movements. This modern salon
tango was used as the foundation for fantasia, and the tango of Todaro is
what has what is principally taught as salon-style tango in the United
States today.
--Steve
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 23:36:12 -0600
From: Bruno <romerob@TELUSPLANET.NET>
Subject: Re: The embrace and the style
Stephen Brown wrote:
<In the years leading up to the golden age, the society orchestras led by
Canaro, Fresedo and Donato deemphasized the staccato rhythm in their
playing, the dancers responded by creating the smooth Tango Liso style, and
dancing in a staccato rhythm was actually considered outside the bounds of
middle-class acceptability.>
Tango was not as popular as Jazz (~1938) during the years leading to the
golden age. It looks like tango was in a downturn.
<Tango Liso evolved into salon-style tango.>
The information I get is that Tango Liso and Tango Salon coexisted. The
Tango Liso was a fix to allow less skilled dancers to participate in the
dance. The Tango Salon was a peerless version of the Tango danced by the
compadritos so that people did not have to be reminded of its humble
origins.
<To this day, some older Argentines insist on dancing smoothly even to
D'Arienzo, and a few will dance staccato to Di Sarli.>
Not sure if you meant this in a negative way. I do not think the real issue
is how people young or old prefer to dance to Di Sarli or D'Arienzo. Tango
does not discriminate. If one is a good dancer is going to show regardless
of style, age, clothing, etc. For me it would more important not to be
caught off balance, with my legs open, dancing off-tempo to the music,
leading my partner so fast as if I am carrying her around like a flag, etc.
Regards,
Bruno
