2549 Etiquette: Teachers pls tell your students not to teach at the milonga!
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:33:37 -0700
From: Western Larch <larix_occidentalis@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Etiquette: Teachers pls tell your students not to teach at the milonga!
Hey everyone,
Lately people have been exchanging views about
milonga etiquette. Here's my $0.02 worth.
My pet peeve: guys who teach at the milonga.
I go to an unnamed milonga in a moderate-size city
somewhere in North America. It's Denver by the way.
Hardly a week goes by when I don't see some guy
(well, usually one of the same few who have this
annoying habit) stop in the middle of a dance and
drag his partner off the dance floor to "teach"
her something. HELLO! -- if she can't follow what
you're leading, you need to be a better leader!
It steams me so much to witness this. I've yet
to say anything to the perpetrators, mostly b/c
I can't think of something polite to say. "Listen
you dork, cut that shit out" would make me feel
really good but it won't fix the problem.
What I've decided to do is to tell beginner
followers (the usual victims) that they aren't
obligated to dance with any guy who has to explain
stuff verbally instead of physically. Thoughts?
Will that work as intended?
Can I beseech the teachers (I mean the ones with
organized classes, who DON'T teach at the milonga)
to please, PLEASE explain to the guys what a
ridiculous faux pas it is to teach at the milonga?
Or perhaps to just use your authority in the
community to tell the guilty parties to give it
a rest?
Whew! I feel better now. Bring on the flames.
Western Larch
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:10:15 -0400
From: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Etiquette: Teachers pls tell your students not to teach at the milonga!
Western Larch:
Yes, you could pull a "Cheney" but it wouldn't solve the problem. As long
as followers feel THEY are responsbile for everything that goes wrong,
you are wasting your time. The best lesson is when followers feel a good
lead (that doesn't hurt and easy to follow) and then wonder "why did the
last lead hurt so much?" When they catch on that leads are different,
they will know not to listen to those who can't lead. For now, the best
thing to tell them is that they can't follow what the leader can't lead.
As for obligated to dance, they are NOT obligated to dance, even with
leaders who don't explain.
Michael
Washington, DC
Less than 2 weeks to the NY Tango festival
www.celebratetango.com
On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:33:37 -0700 Western Larch
<larix_occidentalis@YAHOO.COM> writes:
> Hey everyone,
> >
> My pet peeve: guys who teach at the milonga. > I can't think of
something polite to say. "Listen
> you dork, cut that shit out" would make me feel > really good but it
won't fix the problem.
>
> What I've decided to do is to tell beginner > followers (the usual
victims) that they aren't > obligated to dance with any guy who has to
explain > stuff verbally instead of physically. Thoughts?
> Will that work as intended?
>
> Western Larch
>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 16:33:02 +0200
From: Eero Olli <eero.olli@ISP.UIB.NO>
Subject: Re: Etiquette: Teachers pls tell your students not to teach at the milonga!
Hi,
I do not see any reason why the issue should not be adressed directly. It
seams a futile to try to influence everybody else, when a single person is
the target.
Different milongas have different rules. Therefore I consider it proper for
the organizer of a milonga to have a chat with this person, who is breaking
the rules. If you do not believe you can have a decent talk with him, you
should ask the organizers to take some responsibility. Obviously, since the
behavior continues, nobody has told this poor fellow that his is making
himself the local hateobject.
The rules of a milonga need to be communicated to both visitors and
regulars. At our milonga, in Bergen, one of the rules is that you cannot
reserve a seat or a table. The person responsible for an event should greet
every unknown person, and this a bit strage rule is a nice conversation
piece :-) (and it helps to make people understand that there ARE rules, and
WHO is making them, but this is something we do NOT say to them, it is
implisit in the message) The result is that everybody feels welcome, they
feel like somebody who cares is in charge, and we have a better idea of who
the people visiting us are. The host would often introduce them to some
other people, and if they are from out of town, they might be introduced to
everybody "And tonight we have a guest from......!" between two songs.
General rules should be communicated/taught to everyone. We have list of
do's and don'ts for social behavior at milongas that we teach for every
group of beginners. (how to ask for a dance, how to accept/decline a dance,
how to establish a dance, what to do after a dance, how the women can
controll the distance between dancers etc...) This way also the newbies know
what is polite/apropriate behavior, and what should be avoided. Being a
beginner is no excuse for being rude. And most important, knowing the social
rules makes it easier to enjoy dansing and continue dansing after the
beginnersclass.
best,
Eero
> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:33:37 -0700
> From: Western Larch <larix_occidentalis@YAHOO.COM>
> Subject: Etiquette: Teachers pls tell your students not to teach
> at the milonga!
> Hardly a week goes by when I don't see some guy
> (well, usually one of the same few who have this
> annoying habit) stop in the middle of a dance and
> drag his partner off the dance floor to "teach"
> her something. HELLO! -- if she can't follow what
> you're leading, you need to be a better leader!
>
> It steams me so much to witness this. I've yet
> to say anything to the perpetrators, mostly b/c
> I can't think of something polite to say. "Listen
> you dork, cut that shit out" would make me feel
> really good but it won't fix the problem.
>
> What I've decided to do is to tell beginner
> followers (the usual victims) that they aren't
> obligated to dance with any guy who has to explain
> stuff verbally instead of physically. Thoughts?
> Will that work as intended?
>
> Can I beseech the teachers (I mean the ones with
> organized classes, who DON'T teach at the milonga)
> to please, PLEASE explain to the guys what a
> ridiculous faux pas it is to teach at the milonga?
> Or perhaps to just use your authority in the
> community to tell the guilty parties to give it
> a rest?
>
> Whew! I feel better now. Bring on the flames.
>
> Western Larch
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 23:10:15 -0400
> From: Michael B Ditkoff <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
> Subject: Re: Etiquette: Teachers pls tell your students not to
> teach at the milonga!
>
> Western Larch:
> Yes, you could pull a "Cheney" but it wouldn't solve the problem. As long
> as followers feel THEY are responsbile for everything that goes wrong,
> you are wasting your time. The best lesson is when followers feel a good
> lead (that doesn't hurt and easy to follow) and then wonder "why did the
> last lead hurt so much?" When they catch on that leads are different,
> they will know not to listen to those who can't lead. For now, the best
> thing to tell them is that they can't follow what the leader can't lead.
>
> As for obligated to dance, they are NOT obligated to dance, even with
> leaders who don't explain.
>
> Michael
> Washington, DC
> Less than 2 weeks to the NY Tango festival
> www.celebratetango.com
>
> On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:33:37 -0700 Western Larch
> <larix_occidentalis@YAHOO.COM> writes:
> > Hey everyone,
> > >
> > My pet peeve: guys who teach at the milonga. > I can't think of
> something polite to say. "Listen
> > you dork, cut that shit out" would make me feel > really good but it
> won't fix the problem.
> >
> > What I've decided to do is to tell beginner > followers (the usual
> victims) that they aren't > obligated to dance with any guy who has to
> explain > stuff verbally instead of physically. Thoughts?
> > Will that work as intended?
> >
> > Western Larch
> >
>
>
>
>
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:26:16 -0600
From: Dave Schmitz <dschmitz@MAGELLAN.TEQ.STORTEK.COM>
Subject: Re: Etiquette: Teachers pls tell your students not to teach at the milonga!
Since the original post by "Western Larch" referred to Denver,
I'll reply as to Denver.
But first, it would be nice to know who the person is behind "Western Larch".
W.L. wrote:
> > Hardly a week goes by when I don't see some guy
> > (well, usually one of the same few who have this
> > annoying habit) stop in the middle of a dance and
> > drag his partner off the dance floor to "teach"
> > her something. HELLO! -- if she can't follow what
> > you're leading, you need to be a better leader!
Alas, they don't always step off the floor, but often impede traffic.
I'd change the last to be
"if she can't follow what you're leading,
then
- with a new person, you should have started slowly with simple
steps to feel what she knows,
- you can add other steps, carefully, but when she misses
something, then back off to what she knows,
- you must never embarass the lady by repeatedly trying
something she cannot follow (or you cannot lead),
- you must never teach on the milonga floor,
- but instead,
you should make the lady feel like she's being taken care of
and that dancing with her is a joy, and you can certainly
tell her how much you enjoyed dancing with her.
"
It would be best to dance like the Argentine milongueros,
very simply with only a few steps, always taking care of the woman.
But alas, many North American chicas seem to prefer being
thrown around than to dance elegantly with connection and
feeling.
W.L. wrote:
> > Can I beseech the teachers (I mean the ones with
> > organized classes, who DON'T teach at the milonga)
> > to please, PLEASE explain to the guys what a
> > ridiculous faux pas it is to teach at the milonga?
Sorry W.L., but those offending guys are usually not taking classes.
The only thing teachers can do is to tell their women students
how to handle the situation, to warn them that this can or will
happen, and give them ideas on how to handle it.
But there's another thing that I'd like to bring up, which is
that in rare cases, what you think you observe is not what's
happening.
Rarely, I've said something to a partner when she was doing
something which hurt me. Perhaps you would think I'm teaching
her. The alternative is to never dance with her again. But
I might want to dance with her again, so I need to make a choice,
between consuming lots of ibuprofen, or gently speaking up.
A couple times, a friend has come to tango who has never tried it
before, and I know she won't be taking classes unless she can
be tempted, so then I might do a little walking with her,
but nothing more than that. You may not know that she's an
old friend of mine.
So, keep it in mind that you might not really know what's going
on between two people out on the dance floor.
But yes, there are a few guys in Denver who are pretty obvious.
Including two of the local teachers.
Eero wrote:
> Different milongas have different rules. Therefore I consider it proper for
> the organizer of a milonga to have a chat with this person, who is breaking
> the rules.
The milonga in Denver about which W.L. writes is a nightclub,
and there is usually no person present to police any rules.
> At our milonga, in Bergen, one of the rules is that you cannot
> reserve a seat or a table.
That's a great rule. We have one barfly who dominates two or even
three of the seats at the bar, making it difficult for others
to order drinks. He must be a good tipper, because the bartender
says nothing.
> General rules should be communicated/taught to everyone.
Nice idea, but again, in a nightclub, the tango dancers and tango
teachers have no control over this.
They can only influence their own students.
DJ Dave
Denver
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:37:21 -0700
From: Tango Luna <tangoluna@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Etiquette: Teachers pls tell your students not to teach at the milonga!
Dear Western Larch:
Flame on, WL. I will flame with you. I usually witness this behavior by
Mr. know-it-all targeting a beginner (and, it's almost always a beginner who
is a victim) and "teaching" her on the dance floor at a milonga. Usually,
it's guys who can't lead very well and who are not the best followers'
favorite partner of choice. Basically, I think, the "teaching" pertains to
the follower not being able to follow the lead. Hey guys, have you ever
thought that maybe, just maybe, it's your lead that sucks?
Thank goodness it's only the very few men at the milongas who "teach" on the
flloor. The vast majority are courteous and know that you accept your
partner as she is, especially if you asked her to dance. To the few guys who
engage in this behavior: think about how you are making the woman feel. Do
you really think it makes her feel good when you stop in a middle of a song
on the dance floor to point out her mistakes? A beginner already knows she
lacks tango skills, why point it out by unqualified you. Teaching should be
reserved for class by someone who knows how to teach. A milonga is a place
to enjoy dancing tango with your partner, no matter what level or skill
level one is at, and, to make a human connection. A feel-good, tango
connection. When that happens...aahhh, what a feeling, what a wonderful,
dreamy feeling, what tango!!! Pia
>From: Western Larch <larix_occidentalis@YAHOO.COM>
>Reply-To: Western Larch <larix_occidentalis@YAHOO.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] Etiquette: Teachers pls tell your students not to teach
>at the milonga!
>Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:33:37 -0700
>
>Hey everyone,
>
>Lately people have been exchanging views about
>milonga etiquette. Here's my $0.02 worth.
>
>My pet peeve: guys who teach at the milonga.
>
>I go to an unnamed milonga in a moderate-size city
>somewhere in North America. It's Denver by the way.
>
>Hardly a week goes by when I don't see some guy
>(well, usually one of the same few who have this
>annoying habit) stop in the middle of a dance and
>drag his partner off the dance floor to "teach"
>her something. HELLO! -- if she can't follow what
>you're leading, you need to be a better leader!
>
>It steams me so much to witness this. I've yet
>to say anything to the perpetrators, mostly b/c
>I can't think of something polite to say. "Listen
>you dork, cut that shit out" would make me feel
>really good but it won't fix the problem.
>
>What I've decided to do is to tell beginner
>followers (the usual victims) that they aren't
>obligated to dance with any guy who has to explain
>stuff verbally instead of physically. Thoughts?
>Will that work as intended?
>
>Can I beseech the teachers (I mean the ones with
>organized classes, who DON'T teach at the milonga)
>to please, PLEASE explain to the guys what a
>ridiculous faux pas it is to teach at the milonga?
>Or perhaps to just use your authority in the
>community to tell the guilty parties to give it
>a rest?
>
>Whew! I feel better now. Bring on the flames.
>
>Western Larch
>
>
>
>
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