2159 Graciela Gonzalez -- and Women's Technique
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2004 11:52:51 -0800
From: Philip Seyer <philipseyer@ILOVEMUSIC.COM>
Subject: Graciela Gonzalez -- and Women's Technique
In Argentina, Graciela Gonzalez, the foremost women's instructor, offers
classes in women's technique. She focuses on walking with utmost quality and
all the elements used in follower's dancing. Elements such as ochos, boleo,
and many others. There is an emphasis on posture, breathing, and how to
contact and use the floor with a very quiet yoga-like approach. Men are
welcome at these classes. And smart men often attend. Men gain technique,
technique, and more technique.
Graciela Gonzalez
"Without any doubt, Graciela Gonzalez appears among the most significant pedagogues of the history of the tango. She is characterized by a spirit =
of innovation which always respects the authentic roots of the tango. She created a course called technique for women, universally recognized, =
and a course of technique offering guidance to men. The majority of respected and well-known tango dancers in recent years have taken these =
courses."
[from https://www.pascaleyluis.com/article24.html -- translated from Spanish)
Graciela's method is the fruit of years of study. Her study has been dedicated to the study of the language of the body and to the analysis =
of sensations received when dancing with milongueros. Her objective: to help students learn from sensations and "body memory" and combine this =
with technical studies to achieve an elegant natural dance position."
[NOTE: This is a loose translation from the Spanish at...
https://www.gracielagonzalez.com/graciela.html#graciela
Tango in Sacramento
At my Argentine tango website, I'm helping to keep people informed about tango offering in Sacramento and San Francisco. You may want to see:
https://www.ilovemusic.com/Argnetine_tango_Sacramento_Roseville.htm
Here in Sacramento, we also offer classes in women's technqiue.
But men are not welcome and are forbidden to take the class! I wonder about transexuals--would they be OK? How about transvestites? They =
might be able to pass. Note: The usual forms of transvestism were removed from the list of mental illnesses in 1995. Source: =
https://www.sexuality.org/l/incoming/trbasic.html
(Sorry -- hit send button too soon in previous posting, by mistake. I guess I got too excited about the transexual thing.)
===============
Phil Seyer
https://www.argentine-tango.com
https://www.sftango.com
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 14:36:01 -0700
From: flame@2xtreme.net
Subject: [Tango-L] Women's technique
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Have you looked at Jennifer Bratt's BewitchingBlackLotus tutorials on
YouTube?
https://www.youtube.com/user/BewitchingBlackLotus
hi,
does anyone know of any good videos that teach women?s technique? i
have
my doubts but am hopeful that there might be something. thanks for any
pointers.
cheers
Laura
Watch TaiChiDancers YouTube videos:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=1dFKKw9V5zc
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ydMv17AsMJo
and more...
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 13:08:17 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique
Yes Sean, we read a lot on Tango-L about all the new, modern methods you Americans have
devised to teach Tango. Strange though that, so far, it hasn't produced a single world
class Tango dancer. And, if you read the recent interview with Tete, I'm sure you noticed
his 'thumbs down' to the standard of Tango in the US. No surprise there. I'm pretty sure the
"tango backwater" of Europe could beat you hands-down. And things don't change much in
Buenos Aires - is that also a "tango backwater"? Sean, considering the standard of Tango in
the US, your arrogance is amazing.
Keith, HK
On Sat Jul 14 3:18 , "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" sent:
>Fortunately, I haven't seen that sort of unteaching in many
>years. Either you have no clue about what goes on in
>women's technique workshops Chris, or you live in a tango
>backwater where teaching methodology hasn't changed in over
>a decade. Either way, you aren't really qualified to
>comment on this, are you?
>
>For the followers, in the unlikely event that you find
>yourselves in a technique workshop and the teacher tells
>you to practice ochos with a wall, walk out and demend your
>money back. You are being cheated. Then post the name of
>the teacher on the list, so the rest of us can avoid him.
>
>Sean
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 17:44:21 +0000 (GMT)
From: Club~Tango*La Dolce Vita~ <dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique
Club ~Tango*La Dolce Vita~
~ Dani Iannarelli ~
Dear HongKong Keith and all othet List Tangueros,
>Yes Sean, we read a lot on Tango-L about all the new, modern methods you Americans have
>devised to teach Tango. Strange though that, so far, it hasn't produced a single world class Tango dancer. Keith HK
Nice one, Keith...! Great stuff!
But... methinks there will now be a litany of flaming coming your way... good luck!
[NB For all you paranoics over there... this posting is NOT anti-American! ;-)))]
However, although I have also heard similar reportS (I emphasise the plural) about the standard of US tango (and I should say that some of these 'reports' are not just from the tango plebs/'rank-and-file' but from the higher echelons), I have to say that it is difficult although not incorrect to generalise. There are good and bad dancers in all countries/races/cultures, good and bad teachers in all countries/races/cultures. Just because there has been no production (your assertion... as personally, I don't know) of so-called 'world class' tangueros from the USA, doesn't mean that there are no superb, decent or half-decent tangueros out there.
Problem is (and I completely agree with you here) that what we tend to read from the Americans (nothing personal, Yanks, just an observation) are reams and reams of in-depth, unnecessary diatribes of at what precise angle should the little toe (for example) be deviated to execute a particular 'move'. Also, we get cockeyed methods of 'the best ways to teach', nutty exercises and how to invite someone to dance.
It's as if the natural extrapolation is to approach the American military to devise some robotic, laser-guided, bionic suit that will precision-enhance what we do on the dance floor and indeed how we approach our prospective targets (perhaps some sort of infra-red implant in our eyeball that will attract a target on the other side of the salon to dance).
Too much analysis.
I say, bloody hell... just dance!
Very best wishes
Dani ~
`El Zorro de Tango' >:-)))))
~Tango*La Dolce Vita~
Email: dani@tango-la-dolce-vita.eu
Website: https://www.tango-la-dolce-vita.eu
Online photogalleries: https://www.flickr.com/photos/club_tango-la-dolce-vita/
https://www.flickr.com/people/club_tango-la-dolce-vita/
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 01:06:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique
--- Caroline Weynerowski <cweynerowski@sympatico.ca> wrote:
"The only thing practicing ochos with a wall (or barre)
would improve is the women's
hang-on-to-the-guy-instead-of-use-her-own-balance
technique. "
Bingo. that's why I stopped using the wall a long time ago.
It really did make me start leaning on the guy. Now I do
giros and ochos on my own, touching nothing.
Caroline Weynerowski
cweynerowski@sympatico.ca
---
Thank you Caroline. It's nice to know that someone else
figured this out. Would you have learned faster if your
early teachers had told you this right from the start,
instead of waiting for you to figure it out on your own?
>>From the other responses to my plain, common sense comment,
I am beginning to think that there is some merit to Chris's
opinion about tango teachers. At least some seem to prefer
to create perpetual students, rather than competent
dancers.
I hope we all can see the problem with the wall method, and
hopefully, the more imaginative people can see that it can
be solved by having the student do the same exercise
standing 3 feet away from the wall. Would one of the
teachers still using it please explain the hidden benefits
of the wall that outweigh the obvious problems?
When I started learning tango, I was told that it would
take 5 years to become competent in the dance. That was a
commonly held belief in this area in 1995. I dutifully took
classes and attended practicas for 5 years, and even
struggled through some milongas. At around 5 years of
experience, I was asked to teach by the same group that
taught me.
If your goal is to produce world class dancers Keith, I
wish you luck, but don't quit your day job. My goal is to
put as many people as possible onto a social dance floor
with the tools they need to enjoy themselves, give their
partners an enjoyable dance, and not interfere with anyone
else's enjoyment of the dance. Today, it takes me 6 months
or less to raise most students to the level I was at after
5 years. If it ever takes a whole year, I'll tell that
student to find another teacher.
When I took the 5 year tango track, it included lots of
steps, the D8CB, ochos against the wall, and a whole bunch
of other counter-productive exercises. But at that time, it
was the state of the art for teaching tango. Today, any
teacher who tells their students that it will take 5 years
to become competent in the dance might be hopelessly
incompetent themselves, or could be con artist out to scam
as much money as possible from their students. (I just put
that last part in for Chris ;)
Teachers, if you haven't changed the way you teach in the
last 5 years, you aren't doing your job. Examine everything
you do, and figure out a way to do each thing a little
better. Repeat this exercise a few times a year for the
rest of your career.
Students, try as many different teachers as you can find,
right from the start. In Pittsburgh, Trini and I host a
free weekly milonga with a free beginner?s class. We have
invited every teacher in the city to take turns teaching
the class, so that all of the students and teachers can get
to know each other. In addition, we hope that the various
teachers will attend each other's classes, and learn more
about teaching.
Sean
Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 14:25:21 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique
<patangos@yahoo.com>
Sean, Caroline and others,
I think you're all missing the point of practicing Ochos with hands against a wall.
You shouldn't be leaning on the wall and I've never seen it taught that way. The
purpose of the exercise is just to keep the hands against the wall while doing the turns.
In that way the body stays facing the wall while the hips rotate, i.e. you twist at the waist.
The problem with beginners practicing Ochos without the wall is that they tend to turn the
complete body, including shoulders. When they do the same with a partner, the result is
disastrous. There's nothing wrong with the exercise, just the way it's taught and used.
Same thing with practicing Giros around a tall stool or column. The idea is not to lean on
the stool or column, but just to keep the hands touching. Again, the student is forced to
rotate at the waist and keep the body facing the centre. It's an excellent exercise if used
properly.
Once the student has learned to keep her body facing her partner during Ochos and Giros,
the wall, stool and column can be dispensed with and she can concentrate on balance. Don't
blame the exercises. Either blame the teachers for giving incorrect instruction or blame
yourselves for not paying enough attention to what the teacher wanted you to do - not
unusual in beginner students.
Of course, if you have a partner to practice with - that's best of all.
Keith, HK
On Sun Jul 15 16:06 , "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" sent:
>--- Caroline Weynerowski cweynerowski@sympatico.ca> wrote:
>
>"The only thing practicing ochos with a wall (or barre)
>would improve is the women's
>hang-on-to-the-guy-instead-of-use-her-own-balance
>technique. "
>
>Bingo. that's why I stopped using the wall a long time ago.
>It really did make me start leaning on the guy. Now I do
>giros and ochos on my own, touching nothing.
>
>Caroline Weynerowski
>cweynerowski@sympatico.ca
>---
>
>Thank you Caroline. It's nice to know that someone else
>figured this out. Would you have learned faster if your
>early teachers had told you this right from the start,
>instead of waiting for you to figure it out on your own?
>
>>>From the other responses to my plain, common sense comment,
>I am beginning to think that there is some merit to Chris's
>opinion about tango teachers. At least some seem to prefer
>to create perpetual students, rather than competent
>dancers.
>
>I hope we all can see the problem with the wall method, and
>hopefully, the more imaginative people can see that it can
>be solved by having the student do the same exercise
>standing 3 feet away from the wall. Would one of the
>teachers still using it please explain the hidden benefits
>of the wall that outweigh the obvious problems?
>Sean
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 13:26:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Women's technique
--- Keith <keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
"The purpose of the exercise is just to keep the hands
against the wall while doing the turns. In that way the
body stays facing the wall while the hips rotate, i.e. you
twist at the waist. The problem with beginners practicing
Ochos without the wall is that they tend to turn the
complete body, including shoulders."
Keith is right that most beginners will turn as a block if
they are asked by an inadequate teacher to do ochos in the
middle of the floor. We don't use the exercise to teach the
ocho as a step. We use to help the students learn to
disassociate the ribs from the hips. The problem with
providing the wall crutch is that the students will
invariably use their arms to restrain their ribs while
their hips turn. They don't have to lean on the wall to do
this. It only requires a very light touch with the
fingertips, and tension in the arms, shoulders and back to
restrain the ribs. That tension is disastrous when the
student tries to do ochos with a partner.
Keith's error is in thinking and teaching that
disassociation is created when "you twist at the waist".
Movement of the body occurs at joints. There is no waist
joint. Disassociation of the hips and ribs is only possible
by twisting the spine, particularly the lumbar spine. This
is not a pointless semantic distinction. When you think of
twisting the spine instead of the waist, it becomes
immediately apparent that creating tension in the back is
counterproductive.
Good teaching becomes an exercise in problem solving. A
problem with having beginning students execute ochos in the
middle of the floor is that they tend to turn as a block.
Having them execute ochos against a wall solves the
turning-as-a-block problem, but it defeats the purpose of
the exercise, and it creates worse problems. Our solution
is to use exercises that teach the students to disassociate
the hips and ribs and to sense the positions of their ribs
and hips. (When they start, most students can't feel the
difference between turning as a block and spiraling.) Once
they develop that sense, we introduce the ocho exercise. We
might introduce the ocho exercise later than some teachers,
but I am sure our students become proficient much more
quickly than students who got a "head start" by working
with a wall.
I suspect that a lot of tango teachers don't put much
effort into learning how to teach. They use the same
methods that they think their teachers used. The problem
with that, as Keith pointed out, is that they were "not
paying enough attention to what the teacher wanted you to
do ? not unusual in beginner students."
If teaching your students as well as you were taught is
good enough for you, maybe teaching isn't your calling.
Some dancers (Salas and Gavito at least) are held as sacred
by the community, because they have defined the highest
level of dancing tango. IMHO, there are not yet any
teachers who qualify for deification. The art of teaching
tango is still in its infancy.
Sean
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 15:51:04 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique
To: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>, "Tango-L"
In the case of Salas, he defined the highest level of the dance for a
while. Then he got worse.
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 13:26:37 -0700 (PDT), "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)"
<patangos@yahoo.com> said:
>
> --- Keith <keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
>
> "The purpose of the exercise is just to keep the hands
> against the wall while doing the turns. In that way the
> body stays facing the wall while the hips rotate, i.e. you
> twist at the waist. The problem with beginners practicing
> Ochos without the wall is that they tend to turn the
> complete body, including shoulders."
>
> Keith is right that most beginners will turn as a block if
> they are asked by an inadequate teacher to do ochos in the
> middle of the floor. We don't use the exercise to teach the
> ocho as a step. We use to help the students learn to
> disassociate the ribs from the hips. The problem with
> providing the wall crutch is that the students will
> invariably use their arms to restrain their ribs while
> their hips turn. They don't have to lean on the wall to do
> this. It only requires a very light touch with the
> fingertips, and tension in the arms, shoulders and back to
> restrain the ribs. That tension is disastrous when the
> student tries to do ochos with a partner.
>
> Keith's error is in thinking and teaching that
> disassociation is created when "you twist at the waist".
> Movement of the body occurs at joints. There is no waist
> joint. Disassociation of the hips and ribs is only possible
> by twisting the spine, particularly the lumbar spine. This
> is not a pointless semantic distinction. When you think of
> twisting the spine instead of the waist, it becomes
> immediately apparent that creating tension in the back is
> counterproductive.
>
> Good teaching becomes an exercise in problem solving. A
> problem with having beginning students execute ochos in the
> middle of the floor is that they tend to turn as a block.
> Having them execute ochos against a wall solves the
> turning-as-a-block problem, but it defeats the purpose of
> the exercise, and it creates worse problems. Our solution
> is to use exercises that teach the students to disassociate
I suspect that a lot of tango teachers don't put much
effort into learning how to teach. They use the same
methods that they think their teachers used. The problem
with that, as Keith pointed out, is that they were "not
paying enough attention to what the teacher wanted you to
do ? not unusual in beginner students."
If teaching your students as well as you were taught is
good enough for you, maybe teaching isn't your calling.
Some dancers (Salas and Gavito at least) are held as sacred
by the community, because they have defined the highest
level of dancing tango. IMHO, there are not yet any
teachers who qualify for deification. The art of teaching
tango is still in its infancy.
Sean
> the hips and ribs and to sense the positions of their ribs
> and hips. (When they start, most students can't feel the
> difference between turning as a block and spiraling.) Once
> they develop that sense, we introduce the ocho exercise. We
> might introduce the ocho exercise later than some teachers,
> but I am sure our students become proficient much more
> quickly than students who got a "head start" by working
> with a wall.
>
> I suspect that a lot of tango teachers don't put much
> effort into learning how to teach. They use the same
> methods that they think their teachers used. The problem
> with that, as Keith pointed out, is that they were "not
> paying enough attention to what the teacher wanted you to
> do ? not unusual in beginner students."
>
> If teaching your students as well as you were taught is
> good enough for you, maybe teaching isn't your calling.
> Some dancers (Salas and Gavito at least) are held as sacred
> by the community, because they have defined the highest
> level of dancing tango. IMHO, there are not yet any
> teachers who qualify for deification. The art of teaching
> tango is still in its infancy.
>
> Sean
>
>
>
>
>
>
> all the tools to get online.
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 23:34 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Trini wrote:
> Good teaching becomes an exercise in problem solving.
/Bad/ teaching becomes an exercise in problem solving... every bit as fast
as it creates those very same problems.
Good teaching is an exercise in not problem creating. It's first
responsibility is simply not to sabotage the natural development process.
> A problem with having beginning students execute ochos in the
> middle of the floor is that they tend to turn as a block.
Quite. A problem created only by bad teaching.
> Our solution is to use exercises ...
Well, you could instead try the solution that has been working fine for
most of the last 100 years. The learner partners not with thin air but
with another human being - one who can already dance. The embrace keeps
them together in a way that means, apropos ochos, your "turn as a block"
just does not happen. Pivoting arises naturally from the embrace as
something fully shared by the couple, rather than simply commanded by one
and executed by the other.
Steve wrote:
> Back in the 40s and 50s Arthur Murray advised his female students
> that they were just as responsible ...
The same guy who invented the follow-the-footprints-on-the-floor method?
I'll bet his tango classes were a real blast! ;)
> Women do not get better by osmosis.
That's exactly what they do.
--
Chris
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 18:44:43 -0700
From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique
<ade549600707161844t35d6c6e4j5eb167d363b0972a@mail.gmail.com>
On 7/16/07, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
[...]
> Keith's error is in thinking and teaching that
> disassociation is created when "you twist at the waist".
> Movement of the body occurs at joints. There is no waist
> joint. Disassociation of the hips and ribs is only possible
> by twisting the spine, particularly the lumbar spine. This
> is not a pointless semantic distinction. When you think of
> twisting the spine instead of the waist, it becomes
> immediately apparent that creating tension in the back is
> counterproductive.
It may be better to _say_ it that way if it invokes the appropriate
muscles as an intuitive response (don't know if this is true or not
but I can take your word for it). However you are not really
spine-twisting to dissociate. There is no waist joint, true, but there
are specific muscles that generally go between your hips and your
ribcage and accomplish the twisting by contraction.
My understanding is that if you twist only your upper body so that
your right shoulder rotates forward and to the left (from your POV),
or, equivalently, when you twist only your lower body so that your
left knee/leg rotates forward and to the right, you involve mainly the
right external oblique, the left internal oblique, and to a smaller
degree the rectus abdominis and the left spinal erectors. So the main
movers are nowhere near the spine, and the spine errectors do not
twist it, even though the spine may get a twist in it as a
_consequence_ of the contraction of the obliques.
With best regards,
Konstantin
Victoria, Canada
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 22:36:26 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 23:34:00 +0100, "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> said:
> Trini wrote:
> > Women do not get better by osmosis.
>
> That's exactly what they do.
The way you write that, it implies all women have this instinct for
tango. This like saying all women have an instinct for belly dance.
Yah, right.
Yes, I've met women who are superb dancers after a couple of months of
tango. The key is that they already had balance, didn't have to learn
new ways of moving their body, so all they really needed to work on is
their following skills.
I wonder what you would say to some of the women I have met who've spent
decades not moving their bodies and decide they want to learn tango.
This is not an easy place for them be be in, and the difficulties seem
to be 2: much of their musculoskeletal system doesn't work as designed,
and they have strange notions of what tango movement actually consists
of.
Good luck trying to get them to learn tango by osmosis.
Christopher
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 02:00:12 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique
Hi Sean,
There you go again with your new-fangled teaching techniques. I think my beginner students understand ... "twist at the
waist". I don't think they'd understand ... "disassociate the hips and ribs and to sense the positions of their ribs and hips. And
your students have to develop that sense before you actually teach them the Ocho? Wow, with that kind of dedication, I'm not
surprised your students can walk, do rock steps and Ochos - and all within 6-months.
Sean, you sound like my advanced-level Ballroom instructor. I certainly hope teaching Tango isn't going in that direction, where
the dancers are concentrating so much on technique that they lose the joy of dancing.
Keith, HK
On Tue Jul 17 4:26 , "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" sent:
>Keith's error is in thinking and teaching that
>disassociation is created when "you twist at the waist".
>Movement of the body occurs at joints. There is no waist
>joint. Disassociation of the hips and ribs is only possible
>by twisting the spine, particularly the lumbar spine. This
>is not a pointless semantic distinction. When you think of
>twisting the spine instead of the waist, it becomes
>immediately apparent that creating tension in the back is
>counterproductive.
>
>Good teaching becomes an exercise in problem solving. A
>problem with having beginning students execute ochos in the
>middle of the floor is that they tend to turn as a block.
>Having them execute ochos against a wall solves the
>turning-as-a-block problem, but it defeats the purpose of
>the exercise, and it creates worse problems. Our solution
>is to use exercises that teach the students to disassociate
>the hips and ribs and to sense the positions of their ribs
>and hips. (When they start, most students can't feel the
>difference between turning as a block and spiraling.) Once
>they develop that sense, we introduce the ocho exercise. We
>might introduce the ocho exercise later than some teachers,
>but I am sure our students become proficient much more
>quickly than students who got a "head start" by working
>with a wall.
>
>Sean
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 02:09:15 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique
Hi Konstantin,
Great reply. I hope Sean gets the message, but I doubt it. He'll probably be teaching all that stuff in your final paragraph in
his next beginner class :-).
Keith, HK
On Tue Jul 17 9:44 , "Konstantin Zahariev" sent:
>On 7/16/07, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>[...]
>> Keith's error is in thinking and teaching that
>> disassociation is created when "you twist at the waist".
>> Movement of the body occurs at joints. There is no waist
>> joint. Disassociation of the hips and ribs is only possible
>> by twisting the spine, particularly the lumbar spine. This
>> is not a pointless semantic distinction. When you think of
>> twisting the spine instead of the waist, it becomes
>> immediately apparent that creating tension in the back is
>> counterproductive.
>
>
>It may be better to _say_ it that way if it invokes the appropriate
>muscles as an intuitive response (don't know if this is true or not
>but I can take your word for it). However you are not really
>spine-twisting to dissociate. There is no waist joint, true, but there
>are specific muscles that generally go between your hips and your
>ribcage and accomplish the twisting by contraction.
>
>My understanding is that if you twist only your upper body so that
>your right shoulder rotates forward and to the left (from your POV),
>or, equivalently, when you twist only your lower body so that your
>left knee/leg rotates forward and to the right, you involve mainly the
>right external oblique, the left internal oblique, and to a smaller
>degree the rectus abdominis and the left spinal erectors. So the main
>movers are nowhere near the spine, and the spine errectors do not
>twist it, even though the spine may get a twist in it as a
>_consequence_ of the contraction of the obliques.
>
>With best regards,
>
>Konstantin
>Victoria, Canada
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 23:14:03 -0700
From: dwyliu@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique
To: keith@tangohk.com
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<30ad4e030707162314p262aadd7gc34d1f3e2238d5b4@mail.gmail.com>
Keith,
That is probably a little harsh. Sean is a teacher who cares, and who is
working not just to find creative ways to help his students improve, but to
then communicate a difficult concept with all of us.
I suspect that the main problem is that talking about the technique rapidly
becomes very wordy and stilted-sounding. It is a problem with communicating
via e-mail rather than in person, not necessarily a problem of his
understanding of either Tango or dance.
A slightly edited quote: "Technique must be mastered only because the body
must not stand in the way of the soul's expression" - La Meri
Best,
David
On 7/16/07, Keith <keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Sean,
>
> There you go again with your new-fangled teaching techniques. I think my
> beginner students understand ... "twist at the
> waist". I don't think they'd understand ... "disassociate the hips and
> ribs and to sense the positions of their ribs and hips. And
> your students have to develop that sense before you actually teach them
> the Ocho? Wow, with that kind of dedication, I'm not
> surprised your students can walk, do rock steps and Ochos - and all within
> 6-months.
>
> Sean, you sound like my advanced-level Ballroom instructor. I certainly
> hope teaching Tango isn't going in that direction, where
> the dancers are concentrating so much on technique that they lose the joy
> of dancing.
>
> Keith, HK
>
>
> On Tue Jul 17 4:26 , "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" sent:
>
> >Keith's error is in thinking and teaching that
> >disassociation is created when "you twist at the waist".
> >Movement of the body occurs at joints. There is no waist
> >joint. Disassociation of the hips and ribs is only possible
> >by twisting the spine, particularly the lumbar spine. This
> >is not a pointless semantic distinction. When you think of
> >twisting the spine instead of the waist, it becomes
> >immediately apparent that creating tension in the back is
> >counterproductive.
> >
> >Good teaching becomes an exercise in problem solving. A
> >problem with having beginning students execute ochos in the
> >middle of the floor is that they tend to turn as a block.
> >Having them execute ochos against a wall solves the
> >turning-as-a-block problem, but it defeats the purpose of
> >the exercise, and it creates worse problems. Our solution
> >is to use exercises that teach the students to disassociate
> >the hips and ribs and to sense the positions of their ribs
> >and hips. (When they start, most students can't feel the
> >difference between turning as a block and spiraling.) Once
> >they develop that sense, we introduce the ocho exercise. We
> >might introduce the ocho exercise later than some teachers,
> >but I am sure our students become proficient much more
> >quickly than students who got a "head start" by working
> >with a wall.
> >
> >Sean
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 10:19:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique
To: Konstantin Zahariev <anfractuoso@gmail.com>, Tango-L
Hi Konstantin,
--- Konstantin Zahariev <anfractuoso@gmail.com> wrote:
> My understanding is that if you twist only your upper
> body so that your right shoulder rotates forward and to
the left (from your POV), or, equivalently, when you twist
only your lower body so that your left knee/leg rotates
forward and to the right, you involve mainly the
> right external oblique, the left internal oblique, and to
> a smaller degree the rectus abdominis and the left spinal
erectors. So the main movers are nowhere near the spine,
and the spine errectors do not twist it, even though the
spine may get a twist in it as a _consequence_ of the
contraction of the obliques.
>
> With best regards,
>
> Konstantin
> Victoria, Canada
Trini, here. Actually, in moving efficiently, it's muscles
deeper than the obliques that produce rotation. Here's a
quote from my Dance Kinesiology book, which is used as a
textbook in many university dance programs.
"For example, turning the shoulders to face the left is a
joint action involving a maintenance of extension and
active rotation to the left. (Remember that gravity is a
flexor of the spine in an upright position.) This would
require a static contraction of the extensor muscles
(extension fibers of erector spinae, deep posterior muscles
and semispinalis) and shortening contraction of the left
rotators (left rotation fibers of the erector spinae and
the deep posterior muscles, and the right side of the
semispinalis.)"
Nowhere does she mention obliques. The erector spinae is a
group of vertical muscles that attach to various points of
the ribcage and spine. Deep posterior muscles go from
vertebrae to vertebrae.
When we teach, we don't get into that level of detail,
except for our most dedicated students. We simply let
students think about their spine and loosening it up enough
to enable more movement. Beginning lessons with a massage
helps them understand this.
Keith has obviously not reached a level of dancing that
teachers are willing to discuss these details with him.
When instructors from Argentina visit, we discuss things
like this all the time. And they get excited and pleased
that some people care to really learn the details. Which
is why they like coming back here to teach. So they often
feel comfortable bringing out these issues with our
students during workshops or privates.
Some of these instructors know so much, it's a shame when
they are not able to share their knowledge.
Trini de Pittsburgh
Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 13:46:09 -0400
From: "Jennifer Park" <jhapark@pennswoods.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique
To: "Tango-L" <tango-l@mit.edu>
Hey all,
I'm one of Sean's (Trina's) students/past student. Cut the guy some slack,
will ya! Years ago, he gave me the dances of my life at my first milonga
and I'd barely danced tango. He led well and was considerate of my beginner
abilities and made it so fun all I could think about was getting more tango,
and more and more...
Guinness fan,
Jen
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 2:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique
> Keith,
>
> That is probably a little harsh. Sean is a teacher who cares, and who is
> working not just to find creative ways to help his students improve, but
> to
> then communicate a difficult concept with all of us.
>
> I suspect that the main problem is that talking about the technique
> rapidly
> becomes very wordy and stilted-sounding. It is a problem with
> communicating
> via e-mail rather than in person, not necessarily a problem of his
> understanding of either Tango or dance.
>
> A slightly edited quote: "Technique must be mastered only because the body
> must not stand in the way of the soul's expression" - La Meri
>
> Best,
> David
>
> On 7/16/07, Keith <keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Sean,
>>
>> There you go again with your new-fangled teaching techniques. I think my
>> beginner students understand ... "twist at the
>> waist". I don't think they'd understand ... "disassociate the hips and
>> ribs and to sense the positions of their ribs and hips. And
>> your students have to develop that sense before you actually teach them
>> the Ocho? Wow, with that kind of dedication, I'm not
>> surprised your students can walk, do rock steps and Ochos - and all
>> within
>> 6-months.
>>
>> Sean, you sound like my advanced-level Ballroom instructor. I certainly
>> hope teaching Tango isn't going in that direction, where
>> the dancers are concentrating so much on technique that they lose the joy
>> of dancing.
>>
>> Keith, HK
>>
>>
>> On Tue Jul 17 4:26 , "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" sent:
>>
>> >Keith's error is in thinking and teaching that
>> >disassociation is created when "you twist at the waist".
>> >Movement of the body occurs at joints. There is no waist
>> >joint. Disassociation of the hips and ribs is only possible
>> >by twisting the spine, particularly the lumbar spine. This
>> >is not a pointless semantic distinction. When you think of
>> >twisting the spine instead of the waist, it becomes
>> >immediately apparent that creating tension in the back is
>> >counterproductive.
>> >
>> >Good teaching becomes an exercise in problem solving. A
>> >problem with having beginning students execute ochos in the
>> >middle of the floor is that they tend to turn as a block.
>> >Having them execute ochos against a wall solves the
>> >turning-as-a-block problem, but it defeats the purpose of
>> >the exercise, and it creates worse problems. Our solution
>> >is to use exercises that teach the students to disassociate
>> >the hips and ribs and to sense the positions of their ribs
>> >and hips. (When they start, most students can't feel the
>> >difference between turning as a block and spiraling.) Once
>> >they develop that sense, we introduce the ocho exercise. We
>> >might introduce the ocho exercise later than some teachers,
>> >but I am sure our students become proficient much more
>> >quickly than students who got a "head start" by working
>> >with a wall.
>> >
>> >Sean
>>
>>
>>
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:39:54 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique
Hi Keith,
Trini, here. If you were more open to new ideas, then
perhaps instead of fearing losing your students to other
teachers, you'd be in a position more like ours. The other
local teachers (and many regional teachers) send their
students to us.
Happy tangos,
Trini
--- Keith <keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
> Hi Konstantin,
>
> Great reply. I hope Sean gets the message, but I doubt
> it. He'll probably be teaching all that stuff in your
> final paragraph in his next beginner class :-).
>
> Keith, HK
>
Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's
Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 20:32 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> > > Women do not get better by osmosis.
> >
> > That's exactly what they do.
>
> The way you write that, it implies all women have this instinct for
> tango.
Just the ones that get better, Christopher ;)
> I wonder what you would say to some of the women I have met who've spent
> decades not moving their bodies and decide they want to learn tango.
"Take up quilting instead."
--
Chris
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 12:57:33 -0700
From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ade549600707171257k73062251rd9cba794abb2bad7@mail.gmail.com>
Dear Trini,
I find the quote you provide very surprising.I think its context might
be different in that it focuses exclusively on the spine movement and
ignoring anything else (see below).
Separately, I find the explanation a bit confusing or misleading.
Here's what I mean:
> "For example, turning the shoulders to face the left is a
> joint action involving a maintenance of extension and
> active rotation to the left. (Remember that gravity is a
> flexor of the spine in an upright position.)
The only way this logcally flows together is if the view taken is that
of the spine exclusively, and the author thinks of it as a compressed
(by gravity) column which needs to extend first to be able to rotate.
So far so good.
> This would require a static contraction of the extensor muscles
> (extension fibers of erector spinae, deep posterior muscles
> and semispinalis)
So far this is naming the muscles the author thinks are involved in
the extension of the spine before its rotation.
BTW, I find usage of phrases like "extension fibers" and (below)
"rotation fibers" misleading. Muscle fibers only contract; it is the
3-D position of the origin and insertion points that determines what
we might call the resulting motion (twisting, bending, extending,
rotating, etc.)
> and shortening contraction of the left
> rotators (left rotation fibers of the erector spinae and
> the deep posterior muscles, and the right side of the
> semispinalis.)"
No idea what rotation fibers are, but we here agree on the small
involvement of the erector spinae (not in rotation, though).
Semispinalis (dorsi, cervicis, capitis) muscles cannot be main movers
in the twisting motion of upper versus lower torso, as they are all in
the thoracic region and up. I can see how they are involved in making
sure the vertebrae acommodate the twisting, though.
Deep posterior muscles - maybe the author is talking about the
rotatores (but again these are small muscles in the thoracic region
that focus on lifting and/or rotating adjacent vertebrae locally so
cannot be prime movers) or multifidus, which is also not a very large
muscle, acts more locally and probably has a secondary role compared
to the obliques.
What is missing is any discussion of the abdominal muscles,
specifically the external and internal obliques (Obliquus externus
abdominis and Obliquus internus abdominis). I believe this is because
the author focuses only on the vertebral column.
None of this is some new or controversial theory, as far as I know.
You can find it in Gray's anatomy or in any discussion on the action
and function of the obliques.
You are right that it is hard to get to that level of discussion with
students, but I think everyone knows what you mean if you mention the
obliques and avoid too much detail.
With best regards,
Konstantin
Victoria, Canada
On 7/17/07, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Hi Konstantin,
>
> --- Konstantin Zahariev <anfractuoso@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > My understanding is that if you twist only your upper
> > body so that your right shoulder rotates forward and to
> the left (from your POV), or, equivalently, when you twist
> only your lower body so that your left knee/leg rotates
> forward and to the right, you involve mainly the
> > right external oblique, the left internal oblique, and to
> > a smaller degree the rectus abdominis and the left spinal
> erectors. So the main movers are nowhere near the spine,
> and the spine errectors do not twist it, even though the
> spine may get a twist in it as a _consequence_ of the
> contraction of the obliques.
> >
> > With best regards,
> >
> > Konstantin
> > Victoria, Canada
>
>
> Trini, here. Actually, in moving efficiently, it's muscles
> deeper than the obliques that produce rotation. Here's a
> quote from my Dance Kinesiology book, which is used as a
> textbook in many university dance programs.
>
> "For example, turning the shoulders to face the left is a
> joint action involving a maintenance of extension and
> active rotation to the left. (Remember that gravity is a
> flexor of the spine in an upright position.) This would
> require a static contraction of the extensor muscles
> (extension fibers of erector spinae, deep posterior muscles
> and semispinalis) and shortening contraction of the left
> rotators (left rotation fibers of the erector spinae and
> the deep posterior muscles, and the right side of the
> semispinalis.)"
>
> Nowhere does she mention obliques. The erector spinae is a
> group of vertical muscles that attach to various points of
> the ribcage and spine. Deep posterior muscles go from
> vertebrae to vertebrae.
>
> When we teach, we don't get into that level of detail,
> except for our most dedicated students. We simply let
> students think about their spine and loosening it up enough
> to enable more movement. Beginning lessons with a massage
> helps them understand this.
>
> Keith has obviously not reached a level of dancing that
> teachers are willing to discuss these details with him.
> When instructors from Argentina visit, we discuss things
> like this all the time. And they get excited and pleased
> that some people care to really learn the details. Which
> is why they like coming back here to teach. So they often
> feel comfortable bringing out these issues with our
> students during workshops or privates.
>
> Some of these instructors know so much, it's a shame when
> they are not able to share their knowledge.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 13:05:05 -0700
From: "Konstantin Zahariev" <anfractuoso@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<ade549600707171305q87d303gda8088c76d466db1@mail.gmail.com>
I am not sure what is it with the two of you (some deep personal
history I do not care to know the details of), but these personal
insults you hurl at each other are obviously distracting from the
discussion.
Even if what I say turns out to be more accurate, I don't see how this
implies anything terrible about whoever held a less accurate position.
Aren't we all students in life, for life, and always happy to add more
knowledge or refine or correct whatever we have accumulated so far?
Konstantin
Victoria, Canada
On 7/16/07, Keith <keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
> Hi Konstantin,
>
> Great reply. I hope Sean gets the message, but I doubt it. He'll probably be teaching all that stuff in your final paragraph in
> his next beginner class :-).
>
> Keith, HK
>
>
> On Tue Jul 17 9:44 , "Konstantin Zahariev" sent:
>
> >On 7/16/07, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >>
> >[...]
> >> Keith's error is in thinking and teaching that
> >> disassociation is created when "you twist at the waist".
> >> Movement of the body occurs at joints. There is no waist
> >> joint. Disassociation of the hips and ribs is only possible
> >> by twisting the spine, particularly the lumbar spine. This
> >> is not a pointless semantic distinction. When you think of
> >> twisting the spine instead of the waist, it becomes
> >> immediately apparent that creating tension in the back is
> >> counterproductive.
> >
> >
> >It may be better to _say_ it that way if it invokes the appropriate
> >muscles as an intuitive response (don't know if this is true or not
> >but I can take your word for it). However you are not really
> >spine-twisting to dissociate. There is no waist joint, true, but there
> >are specific muscles that generally go between your hips and your
> >ribcage and accomplish the twisting by contraction.
> >
> >My understanding is that if you twist only your upper body so that
> >your right shoulder rotates forward and to the left (from your POV),
> >or, equivalently, when you twist only your lower body so that your
> >left knee/leg rotates forward and to the right, you involve mainly the
> >right external oblique, the left internal oblique, and to a smaller
> >degree the rectus abdominis and the left spinal erectors. So the main
> >movers are nowhere near the spine, and the spine errectors do not
> >twist it, even though the spine may get a twist in it as a
> >_consequence_ of the contraction of the obliques.
> >
> >With best regards,
> >
> >Konstantin
> >Victoria, Canada
>
>
>
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 00:56 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> I'd be out of business, if people learnt only this in half a year
What refreshing honesty. Thanks, Aron.
Trini wrote:
> ...erector spinae, deep posterior muscles and semispinalis ...
> When instructors from Argentina visit, we discuss things
> like this all the time. And they get excited and pleased
I'll bet they do.
> Which is why they like coming back here to teach.
And why they go home laughing all the way to the bank.
--
Chris
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 17:13:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Iron Logic <railogic@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique
dear Chris UK, I think people don?t understand you when you say?.no technique, classes are bad?no group?.lessons?... May be you should I walk the talk and *show us* what is possible.. by *just dancing*.
All we know is you:
Learnt tango by 'just dancing' [without going to classes, without learning 'technique's etc..]
Have had very bad experience with teachers
Sincerely think that followers don?t have to go to classes, they learn by dancing with 'good' dancers [like yourself?..perhaps]
Just to get an idea of what you are talking about, will you be kind enough to post a video of yourself dancing, so the viewers can decide whether :
1) Continue to learn the way they do because they aren't impressed by your 'dancing'
OR ..2) Stop going classes because they like your dancing and want follow your example
Ofcourse you may pick a partner who has never been tango classes, technique classes etc. so you can demonstrate your now legendary leading skills.
?.show them the way by dancing[ instead of talking about dancing?apologies for borrowing your lines:)].
IL
"Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote: > I'd be out of business, if people learnt only this in half a year
What refreshing honesty. Thanks, Aron.
Trini wrote:
> ...erector spinae, deep posterior muscles and semispinalis ...
> When instructors from Argentina visit, we discuss things
> like this all the time. And they get excited and pleased
I'll bet they do.
> Which is why they like coming back here to teach.
And why they go home laughing all the way to the bank.
--
Chris
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 01:55:54 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique
Hi Trini,
You and Sean are obviously a match made in heaven. I'm glad you found each other.
But, tell me, do you and Sean dance and teach dancing for a living or is it just a hobby? And what about the other local
teachers? I can't imagine they're professionals or why would they be turning business away and sending their students
elsewhere? It's a whole different ball game when you rely on students to put bread on the table and I'm not going to apologise
for trying to make a living. And, fortunately, there are still a lot of people out there who prefer qualified professionals to
enthusiastic amateurs.
Best Regards,
Keith, HK
On Wed Jul 18 2:39 , "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" sent:
>Hi Keith,
>
>Trini, here. If you were more open to new ideas, then
>perhaps instead of fearing losing your students to other
>teachers, you'd be in a position more like ours. The other
>local teachers (and many regional teachers) send their
>students to us.
>
>Happy tangos,
>Trini
>
>--- Keith keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Konstantin,
>>
>> Great reply. I hope Sean gets the message, but I doubt
>> it. He'll probably be teaching all that stuff in your
>> final paragraph in his next beginner class :-).
>>
>> Keith, HK
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's
>Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 11:08:36 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique
IL,
Maybe you missed Chris' post last year. Chris has actualy attended classes with more than 60 [yes, 60] different teachers. But he's never explained why he eventually decided they were worse-than-useless or why it took him so long to come to that conclusion.
Since his dislike of teachers has no logic, I tend to think it's envy - after all, teachers are actually getting paid for what Chris would obviously be happy to do for free.
Keith, HK
On Wed Jul 18 8:13 , Iron Logic sent:
> dear Chris UK, I think people don?t understand you when you say?.no technique, classes are bad?no group?.lessons?... May be you should I walk the talk and *show us* what is possible.. by *just dancing*.
>
> All we know is you:
> Learnt tango by 'just dancing' [without going to classes, without learning 'technique's etc..]
> Have had very bad experience with teachers
> Sincerely think that followers don?t have to go to classes, they learn by dancing with 'good' dancers [like yourself?..perhaps]
>
> Just to get an idea of what you are talking about, will you be kind enough to post a video of yourself dancing, so the viewers can decide whether :
> 1) Continue to learn the way they do because they aren't impressed by your 'dancing'
> OR ..2) Stop going classes because they like your dancing and want follow your example
>
> Ofcourse you may pick a partner who has never been tango classes, technique classes etc. so you can demonstrate your now legendary leading skills.
>
> ?.show them the way by dancing[ instead of talking about dancing?apologies for borrowing your lines:)].
>
>IL
>
>"Chris, UK" tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote: > I'd be out of business, if people learnt only this in half a year
>
>What refreshing honesty. Thanks, Aron.
>
>Trini wrote:
>
>> ...erector spinae, deep posterior muscles and semispinalis ...
>> When instructors from Argentina visit, we discuss things
>> like this all the time. And they get excited and pleased
>
>I'll bet they do.
>
>> Which is why they like coming back here to teach.
>
>And why they go home laughing all the way to the bank.
>
>--
>Chris
>
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 14:21:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Iron Logic <railogic@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Women's technique
>>>
Chris has actualy attended classes with more than 60 [yes, 60] different teachers. But he's never explained why he eventually decided they were worse-than-useless or why it took him so long to come to that conclusion.
>>
60 !!? hmm...is this example of Osmosis?.
Keith <keith@tangohk.com> wrote:
IL,
Maybe you missed Chris' post last year. Chris has actualy attended classes with more than 60 [yes, 60] different teachers. But he's never explained why he eventually decided they were worse-than-useless or why it took him so long to come to that conclusion.
Since his dislike of teachers has no logic, I tend to think it's envy - after all, teachers are actually getting paid for what Chris would obviously be happy to do for free.
Keith, HK
On Wed Jul 18 8:13 , Iron Logic sent:
> dear Chris UK, I think people don?t understand you when you say?.no technique, classes are bad?no group?.lessons?... May be you should I walk the talk and *show us* what is possible.. by *just dancing*.
>
> All we know is you:
> Learnt tango by 'just dancing' [without going to classes, without learning 'technique's etc..]
> Have had very bad experience with teachers
> Sincerely think that followers don?t have to go to classes, they learn by dancing with 'good' dancers [like yourself?..perhaps]
>
> Just to get an idea of what you are talking about, will you be kind enough to post a video of yourself dancing, so the viewers can decide whether :
> 1) Continue to learn the way they do because they aren't impressed by your 'dancing'
> OR ..2) Stop going classes because they like your dancing and want follow your example
>
> Ofcourse you may pick a partner who has never been tango classes, technique classes etc. so you can demonstrate your now legendary leading skills.
>
> ?.show them the way by dancing[ instead of talking about dancing?apologies for borrowing your lines:)].
>
>IL
>
>"Chris, UK" tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote: > I'd be out of business, if people learnt only this in half a year
>
>What refreshing honesty. Thanks, Aron.
>
>Trini wrote:
>
>> ...erector spinae, deep posterior muscles and semispinalis ...
>> When instructors from Argentina visit, we discuss things
>> like this all the time. And they get excited and pleased
>
>I'll bet they do.
>
>> Which is why they like coming back here to teach.
>
>And why they go home laughing all the way to the bank.
>
>--
>Chris
>
