2603 How long does one need to dance to be good?
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 21:39:15 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: How long does one need to dance to be good?
I have given a private lesson this Saturday to a girl who has mentioned that
her original instructor has advised her not to take any advanced classes
before she dances at least seven months. She does not dance that long. So I
went ahead and taught her (almost) all the advanced steps I know in one
extended lesson. Why was I able to do so? Because her fundamentals were
outstanding - I could not possibly improve them (thanks to the
aforementioned instructor). I am sure once she gets used to new steps in
about another month or so she will become one of the best dancers in the
area.
The question begs to be asked is this: why do dancers keep talking about the
time-to-be-good?
I understand why instructors talk that way - they need to make a living. For
example Ive in San Diego has built entire curriculum on this time-of-dancing
approach. Nina in Denver qualifies her beginner level III class thus: "This
class is for dancers who have between 3-6 months of weekly training and who
dance regularly at the practicas and the milongas." I also keep hearing that
to be considered a good dancer or even to have an informed opinion about
tango one needs to be dancing at least three years.
I have to differ. Not all people who dance decades are great dancers. Not
all people who dance less then three years are clueless. Another real
example is a girl who has started with no tango experience and became
exceptional dancer, one of the best dancers I have danced with within just
four months. Granted it is easier to advance as a follower. Still I am sure
with more focused instruction I could have become a good leader in a year at
the most (not a performance tango dancer - the goal I do not aspire to, but
good social dancer).
This time-to-be-good approach amounts essentially to name calling when
people (perhaps students of time-of-dancing approach) try to use it as an
argument of authority writing to Tango-L.
So how long does one need to dance to be good? It is reasonably good
question for a small talk during cortina, but please do not use it as an
argument or testament of quality. I think a leader can become good after one
year of dancing. From my experience a follower can become really good in six
months.
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com - 18 days till Tango in the Park milonga in Colorado
Springs
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 21:48:47 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: How long does one need to dance to be good?
Oleh K. (me) wrote:
>I have to differ.
Not that it matters according to my original message, but I dance two years
and four months.
>Cheers, Oleh K.
>https://TangoSpring.com - 18 days till Tango in the Park milonga in Colorado
>Springs
Cheers to you too, Oleh - having engaging schizo conversations with myself
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 00:13:54 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: How long does one need to dance to be good?
Oleh Kovalchuke wrote:
> <snip>
>
> The question begs to be asked is this: why do dancers keep talking
> about the
> time-to-be-good?
Possibly because they perceive themselves as having a way to go to be
considered a good dancer, and structure their conversations around
> I understand why instructors talk that way - they need to make a
> living. For
> example Ive in San Diego has built entire curriculum on this
> time-of-dancing
> approach.
We don't need to concern ourselves with him.
> Nina in Denver qualifies her beginner level III class thus: "This
> class is for dancers who have between 3-6 months of weekly training
> and who
> dance regularly at the practicas and the milongas."
For a person of average and physical talents, I'm sure. Has she
got the flexibility to let someone in with exceptional ability
and hold back slower learners? Or does she stuff people through
a pipeline and when they emerge hand them a certificate saying
they are now certified Tango Masters? I suspect (and hope for)
the former.
> I also keep hearing that
> to be considered a good dancer or even to have an informed opinion about
> tango one needs to be dancing at least three years.
Really, only the dance floor sorts good dancers from the bad.
To evaluate someone's dance without seeing him dance makes no
sense at all.
Having an informed opinion about tango I believe requires other
faculties than the physical act of dancing Tango, no matter how
beautifully.
Simply parroting one's teacher's opinions does not make one
informed about tango. To think for yourself about tango, about
what works and why it works so that you can work things out on
your own successfully, then you have an informed opinion. Other
opinions remain just that, opinions.
> I have to differ. Not all people who dance decades are great dancers. Not
> all people who dance less then three years are clueless.
True. But remember that 10 years from now your tango will be
that much better ... and you will likely consider your current
level as clueless.
> Another real
> example is a girl who has started with no tango experience and became
> exceptional dancer, one of the best dancers I have danced with within
> just
> four months. Granted it is easier to advance as a follower.
Question: how much experience does she have with dance movement
in general? You'll see why I ask this at the end.
> Still I am sure
> with more focused instruction I could have become a good leader in a
> year at
> the most (not a performance tango dancer - the goal I do not aspire
> to, but
> good social dancer).
I agree, though I consider practice as important than instruction,
so long as one practices correct technique. I started about one
year ago, and if I don't exactly distinguish myself at the milongas,
I don't horribly em-bare-ass myself, and get an occasional compliment.
I'd call myself somewhere between mediocre and fair. If I practiced
every day, I know I would be a lot better than I am now, though.
> This time-to-be-good approach amounts essentially to name calling when
> people (perhaps students of time-of-dancing approach) try to use it as an
> argument of authority writing to Tango-L.
The notion has a partial grounding in the reality that competence
only comes with practice. That being said, some ways of practicing
probably take one further, faster than others, and more importantly,
some people do learn faster than others.
> So how long does one need to dance to be good? It is reasonably good
> question for a small talk during cortina, but please do not use it as an
> argument or testament of quality.
Right on!
> I think a leader can become good after one year of dancing.
A physical genius with a good ear could become a good leader for
social dancing in less time than that. But I'm talking about one
percent of one percenters here, and such persons more than likely
have compelling opportunities (professional sports, for instance)
that take them in other directions than dancing Tango.
> From my experience a follower can become really good in six
> months.
I had the opportunity to dance with a young woman about 20 years
old who had done ballet, modern and jazz since the age of 5, the
first time she ever danced Tango. In about 15 minutes one of the
more experienced ladies taught her how to do front and back ochos
with heels skimming the floor, soft knees, a straight spine and
perfect control. In about 10 minutes I taught her molinetes and
led her though several different left and right hand turns without
having to talk her through them. She was helping me practice my
planeo and lapiz when we ran out of time.
I think she follows better than many of women I've danced with, and
certainly better than anyone I know dancing less than 3 months,
within her first 2 hours. Who knows how good she could be with a
few hours practice a week and I feel frustrated that her experience
wasn't compelling enough to have her find her way back. Oh, well.
--
Christopher L. Everett
Chief Technology Officer www.medbanner.com
MedBanner, Inc. www.physemp.com
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 00:38:11 -0700
From: Robert Hauk <robhauk@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject: Re: How long does one need to dance to be good?
Hello List,
Oleh Kovalchuke wrote:
>
> So how long does one need to dance to be good? It is reasonably good
> question for a small talk during cortina, but please do not use it as an
> argument or testament of quality. I think a leader can become good after one
> year of dancing. From my experience a follower can become really good in six
> months.
The answer to this question depends on what it means to you to dance
well. I have certainly met women who dance really well at 6 months.
They are easy to lead, and move smoothly, and can be led to do steps
they have never done before. For a 6 month dancer they are very very
good. They still can't compare to a good dancer with a few years of
experience.
Carlos Rojas pointed out that the woman also has a big part in the
musicality of the dance. Without the long experience with the music,
that musicality is not possible. Musicality just gets richer with
years, a process without end hopefully. In my experience as a dancer,
musicality is the most important thing a dancer has to offer, leader or
follower. Good technique matters, but without musicality the dance
suffers. I have danced with women who's technique was not great, but
who's musicality was so strong that they were a delight to dance with.
I don't particularly enjoy dancing with someone who's technique is great
but who's musicality is weak.
In my own dancing what it means to dance well changes with the years.
My experience of the dance is deeper and richer now after dancing tango
for nearly 9 years. Each year I seem to learn something significant
that takes my dancing to another level, the last two years especially.
Each year I know the music better, and feel more layers and more subtle
things. This deeper feeling of the music changes my dancing for the
better. I hope this process never ends for me.
Every person will progress at their own rate. What some can do in 1
year, it will take others 3 years to do. People can get so worried
about how quickly, or not quickly they are progressing that they may
forget to enjoy where they are. There is, hopefully, no end to the
learning so in the end it doesn't matter so much how quickly one learns.
Happy tangos to all,
Robert
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 16:41:32 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: How long does one need to dance to be good?
Christopher L. Everett, CTO, has advised me to remember:
> remember that 10 years from now your tango will be that much better ...
>and you will likely consider your current level as clueless.
Actually in 10 years I expect that my tango will be simply different, not
necessarily better. I might loose for example some creativity as I get
older, senile, jaded, get settled into routine all of those things might
happen. Right now I dance differently from a year ago: I do not use some of
the steps I have preferred in the past, I might have become a better dancer
for some partners but degraded in the eyes of others. Personally I think I
dance about the same quality-wise, just differently. My milonga did improve
somewhat mostly through discovery (as opposed to taking more lessons), but I
do not expect that process to continue forever either.
It s not all gloom and doom though. I expect that I will still enjoy
discovering new partners to share the dance with regardless of my senility
level.
>Question: how much experience does she have with dance movement in general?
Correct question. The follower in my example just like in yours was dancer
(coincidentally 20 years old too). It took her more than couple hours (as
opposed to your case) for two reasons: 1. obviously I am not as talented a
teacher as you are, 2. it takes more than technique to become good dancer
musicality (as Robert Hauk correctly pointed out in his message) _and_ in my
opinion more important perception/responsiveness/ability to communicate and
to add to the dance based on that ability to communicate are harder to learn
but possible (not for everyone) with correct mindset, instruction and
sensitive partner.
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com - 17 days till Tango in the Park milonga in Colorado
Springs
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 12:57:20 -0600
From: Brian Dunn <brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: How long does one need to dance to be good? (some numbers)
Dear list,
Sometimes numbers just aren't the best way to express something...but, given
the conversation, here's a few numbers, for what they may be worth:
30-90 minutes - The average time in class for a "middle-of-the-bell-curve"
person to successfully demonstrate the ability to both lead and follow a
subset of rudimentary tango steps safely and considerately around the floor
in typical "milonga conditions" in close and open embrace (based on our
experience).
4-6 months - the point in an aspiring tango dancer's education that several
well-known Argentine instructors defined for me as the time to shift in
primary focus away from "step vocabulary" towards an INTENSIVE immersion
into tango music - in the car, in the shower, at work, at home, etc.
5 months - the typical length of time Carlos Gavito suggested it would take
a reasonably talented follower, if she worked hard with good leaders, to
become "good."
2 years - an initial period of time at the start of the local Colorado tango
community that a well-known local instructor described as "beginners
teaching each other their mistakes."
2 years - the length of time Mariano "Chicho" Frumboli's current partner,
Maria Eugenia, had been dancing tango before they debuted as a world-class
tango teaching/performing couple.
10 years - the typical length of time Carlos Gavito's parter Marcela Duran
suggested it would take for a leader to become "good."
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 19:56:26 GMT
From: michael <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: How long does one need to dance to be good?
I read that Carlos Gavito one said "It takes a woman two years to learn how to follow well. It takes a man a lifetime to learn how to lead." Since I started tango in my 40s, I have a lot of catching up to do.
Time is NOT the only factor that determines when one becomes good. Quality of instruction and hours of practicing play a big role. I'm amazed at bad dancers who don't take lessons unless a big name comes to town. They think their dancing is going to improve because they took ONE or TWO classes. If only it was that simple.
My teacher told me that not everyone wants what I want, which is dance well. Some people just want to learn some steps so they can get out on the floor and "impress" their partner with their dancing skills.
The truth is that your partner determines if you are any good. The women I dance with know much better than me if I'm any good. I've gone through too many episodes where I didn't have a clue how bad I was. This is one time it's smarter to rely on somebody else's judgment until you have confidence and skill.
Michael
Washington, DC
Still dreaming of the recent NY Tango Festival
I'd rather be dancing argentine tango
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 20:41:54 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: How long does one need to dance to be good?
Oleh (me) wrote in the usual confusing manner:
>2. it takes more than technique to become good dancer
>musicality (as Robert Hauk correctly pointed out in his message) _and_ in
>my opinion more important perception/responsiveness/ability to communicate
>and to add to the dance based on that ability to communicate are harder to
>learn but possible (not for everyone) with correct mindset, instruction and
>sensitive partner.
What I tried to say is that "connection" part of tango is much harder to
learn. Understanding how your partner perceives the dance and complementing
/ enhancing his/her tango. When both partners are able to relate on this
level then the connection is amplified and becomes the proverbial "tango
trance".
Not everyone is able to reach this level of connection (and performance
dancers do not need it at all and therefore would have trouble teaching it,
I think) because not everyone is capable to empathize. It is well known that
most women empathize much easier than men. Maybe that is why it takes men
longer to become a good social dancer according to numerous quoted
estimates. Of course there is a matter of learning to lead the steps too (as
opposed to connect), but I am not talking about mechanics here.
Cheers, Oleh K., staying true to the character in continuing self-absorbed
dialogs
https://TangoSpring.com - 17 days till Tango in the Park milonga in Colorado
Springs
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 17:12:05 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: How long does one need to dance to be good?
I can bring a skilled dancer from other dance venues, up to speed in a month or 2, depending on frequency of practice & dancing. I find it works much better to learn with modern orchestras as well as generous amounts of alternative tango music. music thats familiar & fun to them & myself...
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 17:45:38 -0700
From: Michael <michael@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: How long does one need to dance to be good?
Rick FromPortland wrote:
> I can bring a skilled dancer from other dance venues, up to speed in
> a month or 2, depending on frequency of practice & dancing. I find it
> works much better to learn with modern orchestras as well as generous
> amounts of alternative tango music. music thats familiar & fun to
> them & myself...
>
Geez, I spend that much time trying to get them to leave what they
*think* they know at the classroom door! We get ballroomers in with
their épaulment and arched backs, ballet dancers who can't walk with
parallel feet (no turnout at the hip) or think every step has to start
with a battement tendu, and contra or folk dancers who think the
concepts of LOD and tango etiquette are "quaint." And none of the
experienced dancers, ballroomers included, can lead or follow worth a
flip - they're all "step-collectors."
I get much better results with the folks that have had wing chun gung
fu, jiu jitsu, or aikido - much better balance and concept of where
their center is, and how to move *with* someone else's center.
--
Michael
Tango Bellingham
www.tangobellingham.com
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 21:04:08 EDT
From: Mallpasso@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: How long does one need to dance to be good?
You gotta be kidding.
el bandito de tango
In a message dated 8/4/2004 17:24:23 Pacific Standard Time,
pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM writes:
I can bring a skilled dancer from other dance venues, up to speed in a month
or 2, depending on frequency of practice & dancing. I find it works much
better to learn with modern orchestras as well as generous amounts of alternative
tango music. music thats familiar & fun to them & myself...
Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2004 18:31:00 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: How long does one need to dance to be good?
Nope, no bum steer here.
These dancers are my good women friends, skilled dancers, fluent in rhythmic movement & lots of confidence & lots of fun too... Typically they already know West Coast Swing, Texas 2 Step, Night Club 2 Step, Cha-Cha, Hustle, Waltz, etc, etc, etc...
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 20:16:09 -0600
From: David Hodgson <DHodgson@TANGO777.COM>
Subject: Re: How long does one need to dance to be good?
Here...... Lets see if I kill this string. I think I am steady at a 95%
ratio.
This has gotten silly and ridiculous.
From the assumptions of what a follow is suppose to be, to a conversation
that just sounded like ballroom and To what is looking like online dating.
A follow is good the moment (even before that time) the follow walks through
the door of the dance space. She is who she is no more or less. It does not
matter if this is the first time the follow has stepped on the dance floor
or if it is someone with the ablity of Miriam Larici.
If we are talking about technical ability (a very small part of the
picture). Then yes that will take some time and someone with a long history
of dance might not get the message but certainly emulate the dance of
Argentine Tango very quickly. As opposed to someone who does not...
There is a whole lot of other things that come into play here and I will not
go down the list at this time.
I also notice that all the responses are from Male leads (I even raise my
hand on this one).
I wonder how many of the responders have spent time following or have taken
on similar experiences.
My two cents.
David Hodgson.
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 03:03:47 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: So, how long does one need to dance to be good?
David Hodgson was wondering about his string killing prowess among other
silly and ridiculous things:
Here...... Lets see if I kill this string. I think I am steady at a 95%
ratio.
This has gotten silly and ridiculous... [ and so on, see below ]
Just to help you with your quest, David. What's your point?
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
From the assumptions of what a follow is suppose to be, to a conversation
that just sounded like ballroom and To what is looking like online dating.
A follow is good the moment (even before that time) the follow walks through
the door of the dance space. She is who she is no more or less. It does not
matter if this is the first time the follow has stepped on the dance floor
or if it is someone with the ablity of Miriam Larici.
If we are talking about technical ability (a very small part of the
picture). Then yes that will take some time and someone with a long history
of dance might not get the message but certainly emulate the dance of
Argentine Tango very quickly. As opposed to someone who does not...
There is a whole lot of other things that come into play here and I will not
go down the list at this time.
I also notice that all the responses are from Male leads (I even raise my
hand on this one).
I wonder how many of the responders have spent time following or have taken
on similar experiences.
My two cents.
David Hodgson.
Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 22:03:39 -0600
From: David Hodgson <DHodgson@TANGO777.COM>
Subject: Re: So, how long does one need to dance to be good?
O good..... I am glad to see the percetagages are decreasing...... I was
starting to worry.....
Very simply the point is that I have really only heard mention of what a
follow is doing that makes the follow good or not(this is a very important
part).
But I have not heard one mention about who the follow is and how to dance
that part.
Or shall we be like Solomon and cut the follow down the middle... what half
would you like......
Hope that clerifys things
David~
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 9:04 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] So, how long does one need to dance to be good?
David Hodgson was wondering about his string killing prowess among other
silly and ridiculous things:
----
Here...... Lets see if I kill this string. I think I am steady at a 95%
ratio.
This has gotten silly and ridiculous... [ and so on, see below ]
-----
Just to help you with your quest, David. What's your point?
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
From the assumptions of what a follow is suppose to be, to a conversation
that just sounded like ballroom and To what is looking like online dating.
A follow is good the moment (even before that time) the follow walks through
the door of the dance space. She is who she is no more or less. It does not
matter if this is the first time the follow has stepped on the dance floor
or if it is someone with the ablity of Miriam Larici.
If we are talking about technical ability (a very small part of the
picture). Then yes that will take some time and someone with a long history
of dance might not get the message but certainly emulate the dance of
Argentine Tango very quickly. As opposed to someone who does not...
There is a whole lot of other things that come into play here and I will not
go down the list at this time.
I also notice that all the responses are from Male leads (I even raise my
hand on this one).
I wonder how many of the responders have spent time following or have taken
on similar experiences.
My two cents.
David Hodgson.
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:47:26 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: How long does one need to dance to be good?
>----Original Message Follows----
>From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
>I can bring a skilled dancer from other dance venues, up to speed in a
>month or 2, depending on >frequency of practice & dancing. I find it works
>much better to learn with modern orchestras as >well as generous amounts of
>alternative tango music. music thats familiar & fun to them & myself...
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Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 10:07:16 -0400
From: Neeraj Korde <nkorde@UMICH.EDU>
Subject: Re: How long does one need to dance to be good?
WHITE 95 wrote>
> Learn to dance Argentine tango in 5 minutes!!! Yes, you can now learn the
> daunting tango in less time that it take you to read this message!!!! With
> the revolutionary Ronco "Pocket Tango-matic" you too can become an expert
> dancer.
>
> No matter if you are a follow or a lead, man or woman, klingon or vorlon....
> The secrets of tango can be yours now! A patented and secret blend of alloys
> and space age materials has allowed our scientists to create the "pocket
> tango-matic". This amazing device will transform you into the dream dancer
> you always wanted to be. Men, you will instantly become the most sought
> after leader in the milonga. Women, you never again need to sit tanda after
> tanda in the milongas. With the "pocket tango-matic" you'll become the
> veritable center of the milonga, men will fight for the chance to ask you to
> dance!!!
>
> All this for not even the already low price of $29.98 (plus shipping and
> handling), but today, if you order now, you will only pay $19.98. Yes! for
> only $19.98 you can become the dancer you always dream of being. You'll
> practically exude "feelings" and "passion". Your feet and legs will become
> quick as switchblades and accurate as laser beams. Yes! let modern
> technology transform you into the best of the best!
>
> Not only that, but if you order today, we'll include at no extra charge our
> "tune-o-matic". Yes! you heard it right! not only you'll be the master of
> the pista, but now you'll also be the "DJ extraordinaire"... With our
> patented "tune-o-matic" you be able to emanate eminently danceable tunes
> created from all kinds of music. Never again will you have to suffer from
> those old scratchy tango tunes of the past. Now you can dance to wonderfully
> listenable and danceable music of all genres and with no annoying scratches,
> hisses or pops. Yes, for the incredible low price of $19.98 (plus shipping
> and handling) you can have both, the "pocket tangomatic" and the
> "tune-o-matic", but you must act now!!! pick up the phone and call 1-888-be
> a tango god and place your order. Do not waste your time with endless and
> frustrating lessons, end your days as a wall flower, be the epitome of
> master tango dancer. Act now!! call 1-888-be a tango god and make your
> dreams come true....
>
u know what, if u put this on some TV channel ur phone line might just get
jammed with calls.
Neeraj
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 16:14:24 +0200
From: "Christian Lüthen" <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: How long does one need to dance to be good?
["Pocket Tango-matic"]
if 19,98 would have included shipping it would have been a real bargain ...
;-))
thanks!
Christian
--
christian@eTanguero.net
https://www.eTanguero.net/
NEU: WLAN-Router f|r 0,- EUR* - auch f|r DSL-Wechsler!
GMX DSL = superg|nstig & kabellos https://www.gmx.net/de/go/dsl
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 10:55:25 EDT
From: Mallpasso@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: How long does one need to dance to be good?
I'll take two... one for me and one for my partner....
el bandito de tango
In a message dated 8/5/2004 06:54:29 Pacific Standard Time,
white95r@HOTMAIL.COM writes:
>----Original Message Follows----
>From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
>I can bring a skilled dancer from other dance venues, up to speed in a
>month or 2, depending on >frequency of practice & dancing. I find it works
>much better to learn with modern orchestras as >well as generous amounts of
>alternative tango music. music thats familiar & fun to them & myself...
Learn to dance Argentine tango in 5 minutes!!! Yes, you can now learn the
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The secrets of tango can be yours now! A patented and secret blend of alloys
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tango-matic". This amazing device will transform you into the dream dancer
you always wanted to be. Men, you will instantly become the most sought
after leader in the milonga. Women, you never again need to sit tanda after
tanda in the milongas. With the "pocket tango-matic" you'll become the
veritable center of the milonga, men will fight for the chance to ask you to
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All this for not even the already low price of $29.98 (plus shipping and
handling), but today, if you order now, you will only pay $19.98. Yes! for
only $19.98 you can become the dancer you always dream of being. You'll
practically exude "feelings" and "passion". Your feet and legs will become
quick as switchblades and accurate as laser beams. Yes! let modern
technology transform you into the best of the best!
Not only that, but if you order today, we'll include at no extra charge our
"tune-o-matic". Yes! you heard it right! not only you'll be the master of
the pista, but now you'll also be the "DJ extraordinaire"... With our
patented "tune-o-matic" you be able to emanate eminently danceable tunes
created from all kinds of music. Never again will you have to suffer from
those old scratchy tango tunes of the past. Now you can dance to wonderfully
listenable and danceable music of all genres and with no annoying scratches,
hisses or pops. Yes, for the incredible low price of $19.98 (plus shipping
and handling) you can have both, the "pocket tangomatic" and the
"tune-o-matic", but you must act now!!! pick up the phone and call 1-888-be
a tango god and place your order. Do not waste your time with endless and
frustrating lessons, end your days as a wall flower, be the epitome of
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dreams come true....
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 17:06:06 +0100
From: Sebastian Arce <arcetango@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: How long does one need to dance to be good?
White,
Great post - funny and thoughful at the same time -.
Sebastian ARCE
Tango Argentino
www.tango-renaissance.com (coming soon!)
www.mephisto-tango.com
+33 (0) 1 46 78 63 58
+33 (0) 6 09 52 39 28
----- Original Message -----
Wrom: ZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULHPQQ
To: <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
Sent: Thursday, August 05, 2004 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] How long does one need to dance to be good?
> >----Original Message Follows----
> >Wrom: WOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDO
>
> >I can bring a skilled dancer from other dance venues, up to speed in a
> >month or 2, depending on >frequency of practice & dancing. I find it
works
> >much better to learn with modern orchestras as >well as generous amounts
of
> >alternative tango music. music thats familiar & fun to them & myself...
>
>
> Learn to dance Argentine tango in 5 minutes!!! Yes, you can now learn the
> daunting tango in less time that it take you to read this message!!!! With
> the revolutionary Ronco "Pocket Tango-matic" you too can become an expert
> dancer.
>
> No matter if you are a follow or a lead, man or woman, klingon or
vorlon....
> The secrets of tango can be yours now! A patented and secret blend of
alloys
> and space age materials has allowed our scientists to create the "pocket
> tango-matic". This amazing device will transform you into the dream dancer
> you always wanted to be. Men, you will instantly become the most sought
> after leader in the milonga. Women, you never again need to sit tanda
after
> tanda in the milongas. With the "pocket tango-matic" you'll become the
> veritable center of the milonga, men will fight for the chance to ask you
to
> dance!!!
>
> All this for not even the already low price of $29.98 (plus shipping and
> handling), but today, if you order now, you will only pay $19.98. Yes! for
> only $19.98 you can become the dancer you always dream of being. You'll
> practically exude "feelings" and "passion". Your feet and legs will become
> quick as switchblades and accurate as laser beams. Yes! let modern
> technology transform you into the best of the best!
>
> Not only that, but if you order today, we'll include at no extra charge
our
> "tune-o-matic". Yes! you heard it right! not only you'll be the master of
> the pista, but now you'll also be the "DJ extraordinaire"... With our
> patented "tune-o-matic" you be able to emanate eminently danceable tunes
> created from all kinds of music. Never again will you have to suffer from
> those old scratchy tango tunes of the past. Now you can dance to
wonderfully
> listenable and danceable music of all genres and with no annoying
scratches,
> hisses or pops. Yes, for the incredible low price of $19.98 (plus shipping
> and handling) you can have both, the "pocket tangomatic" and the
> "tune-o-matic", but you must act now!!! pick up the phone and call
1-888-be
> a tango god and place your order. Do not waste your time with endless and
> frustrating lessons, end your days as a wall flower, be the epitome of
> master tango dancer. Act now!! call 1-888-be a tango god and make your
> dreams come true....
>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 15:25:11 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: So, how long does one need to dance to be good?
David Hodgson has offered to hack the follow in half like this:
>I have not heard one mention about who the follow is and how to dance
>that part.
>Or shall we be like Solomon and cut the follow down the middle... what half
>would you like......
How about this: I readily admit that I have not written anything about who
the follower is and how to dance that part, the girl goes unharmed and you
get to keep the axe?
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com - 16 days till Tango in the Park milonga in Colorado
Springs
PS On second thought maybe the girl should take the axe with her as a
precaution
>From: David Hodgson <DHodgson@TANGO777.COM>
>Reply-To: David Hodgson <DHodgson@TANGO777.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] So, how long does one need to dance to be good?
>Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2004 22:03:39 -0600
>
>O good..... I am glad to see the percetagages are decreasing...... I was
>starting to worry.....
>
>Very simply the point is that I have really only heard mention of what a
>follow is doing that makes the follow good or not(this is a very important
>part).
>But I have not heard one mention about who the follow is and how to dance
>that part.
>Or shall we be like Solomon and cut the follow down the middle... what half
>would you like......
>
>Hope that clerifys things
>David~
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
>[mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Oleh Kovalchuke
>Sent: Wednesday, August 04, 2004 9:04 PM
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] So, how long does one need to dance to be good?
>
>
>David Hodgson was wondering about his string killing prowess among other
>silly and ridiculous things:
>
>----
>
>Here...... Lets see if I kill this string. I think I am steady at a 95%
>ratio.
>This has gotten silly and ridiculous... [ and so on, see below ]
>
>-----
>
>Just to help you with your quest, David. What's your point?
>
>Cheers, Oleh K.
>https://TangoSpring.com
>
>
>
>
>From the assumptions of what a follow is suppose to be, to a conversation
>that just sounded like ballroom and To what is looking like online dating.
>A follow is good the moment (even before that time) the follow walks
>through
>the door of the dance space. She is who she is no more or less. It does not
>matter if this is the first time the follow has stepped on the dance floor
>or if it is someone with the ablity of Miriam Larici.
>If we are talking about technical ability (a very small part of the
>picture). Then yes that will take some time and someone with a long history
>of dance might not get the message but certainly emulate the dance of
>Argentine Tango very quickly. As opposed to someone who does not...
>There is a whole lot of other things that come into play here and I will
>not
>go down the list at this time.
>
>I also notice that all the responses are from Male leads (I even raise my
>hand on this one).
>I wonder how many of the responders have spent time following or have taken
>on similar experiences.
>
>My two cents.
>David Hodgson.
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 09:10:30 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: So, how long does one need to dance to be good?
So, let's see... for my friends that already know how to dance, Tango doesn't present overwhelming challenges. A cross, ochos, grapevine in a circle & becoming comfortable dancing close. No worries...
.
Plus, we can dance to music they already own!! No need to buy any. Any songs they have, that has a regular beat, say 65 to 80 beats per minute or so, works splendidly. Its really fun, I recommend it to anyone ;o)
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 12:43:50 -0700
From: luda_r1 <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: How long does one need to dance to be good? (9)
Robert Hauk wrote, inter alia:
"Every person will progress at their own rate. What
some can do in 1
year, it will take others 3 years to do. People can
get so worried
about how quickly, or not quickly they are progressing
that they may
forget to enjoy where they are. There is, hopefully,
no end to the
learning so in the end it doesn't matter so much how
quickly one learns."
That's the first sensible comment I've read on the
subject. Thank you, Robert. There's so much talk about
"paying your dues" in tango, as if it were some sort
of penance, some sort of an inexorable measuring
device that will separate the wheat from the chaff. Of
dancers. What for? Heck, this is all about enjoying
yourself, at whatever stage of development you are.
Isn't there enough room for everybody?
Luda
=====
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 12:52:42 -0700
From: Bob Gulliver <bob_gulliver999@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: How long does one need to dance to be good?
I don't think Rick is kidding. But judging from past posts "alternative"
music, chatting while dancing, etc., I think that Rick's idea of "up to speed"
is probably vastly different from yours or Michael's or mine.
And who's to say whose idea is right? I know which I prefer, but I guess
Rick's idea is OK if he and his partners are having fun. Or maybe not. The
special nature of tango is that it can be so much more than "fun".
Bob
--- Mallpasso@AOL.COM wrote:
> You gotta be kidding.
>
> el bandito de tango
>
>
>
> In a message dated 8/4/2004 17:24:23 Pacific Standard Time,
> pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM writes:
> I can bring a skilled dancer from other dance venues, up to speed in a month
> or 2, depending on frequency of practice & dancing. I find it works much
> better to learn with modern orchestras as well as generous amounts of
> alternative
> tango music. music thats familiar & fun to them & myself...
>
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 20:13:18 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: How long does one need to dance to be good?
Perhaps I should broaded the definition some. Bottom line, if dancing isn't enjoyable, fun, satisfying, etc, then i'll pass. If beginners don't have a good experience/fun/a_good_time, think they'll return? I love dancing, enjoy a deep sense of community there, have a lot of fun, don't take thing too seriously. I've seen quite a few snooty Tango types, that take themselves & this dance, waaaaaaay too seriously; from my perspective, they don't look like they are really enjoying what they're doing...
.
PS: Andrew Burt is having live music at his Mixed-Music Milonga on Wed nights. I believe the genre of live music last night was Eastern European/Gypsy music, I think. I had a blast. It was really crowded, the bulk of the dancers were under 25. Its an all ages venue. I believe there was 1 tanda of old music, that's it. Pete & I were up roofing today, I was bouncing ideas of labels: Conservative Tango, Progressive Tango, Luddite Tango... Interesting discussion
Date: Thu, 5 Aug 2004 21:36:10 -0700
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: How long does one need to dance to be good?
Ugh, make that "broaden" & "things". Andrew Burt is having live music once/month at his regular Wed night Milonga. I guess there's probably 2 hours of live music & 2 hours of DJ'd music...
Date: Fri, 6 Aug 2004 00:07:51 -0500
From: Frank Williams <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: How long does one need to dance to be good?
Hey friends,
IMHO, the only person making sense of this question is Robert.
I still remember the first worthwhile thing I read on tango-l.
"First of all, tango is music."
It's so disappointing to mark steps that give the follower latitude to
interpret a lovely song and then... she totally ignores the opportunity.
In the 'conversation of movement' she not only misses your straight line,
she doesn't know you're listening for a come-back. I believe the situation
is similar for leading as for following, and I remember dancing blithely
through great music to the disappointment of experienced followers. Most
intermediate dancer's standard of quality - "technique" - is deaf.
Musicality is the richest measure of quality.
Cheers,
Frank - Mpls.
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D.
University of Minnesota
frankw@umn.edu
612-625-6441
Department of Neuroscience
6-145 Jackson Hall
321 Church St. SE.
Minneapolis, MN 55455
Department of Veterinary and Biomedical Sciences
1971 Commonwealth Ave.
St. Paul, Minnesota 55108
Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2004 21:42:48 -0700
From: Rick FromPDX <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: How long
Hi Michael,
I wish you could come visit & meet some of my good dancing friends. You can't right now though, cuz I gutted the bathroom & the inspectors are coming by soon, to give me cover permission to start hanging sheetrock & backerboard, after they check out the plumbing & electrical. Used PEX for the water, goes really fast! Anyway, my gal friends have danced a long time, are very skilled & fluent in rhythmic movement. They don't do formal lessons anymore, picking up things very, very quickly. They have loads of confidence, are natural dancers & really love dancing & know what they are doing, consciously, unconsciously. I know its hard for you to believe they can pick up Tango quite rapidly, but its true.
No worries, mate...
Take care...
Date: Wed, 11 Aug 2004 08:41:00 -0700
From: Rick FromPDX <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: How Long
Hi Michael,
Having never met me or my women friends, my advice for you
is to speak about things which you have direct experience.
About these 2 things, you have no idea what you're talking about.
No worries. Still, it would be fun to meet you someday.
The Shrub that is going to be pruned, will happen Election Day
in November...
Take care..
