501 Integrating Workshops and Local Classes
Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2002 15:26:14 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Integrating Workshops and Local Classes
Tango is most often taught in workshops by visiting instructors and classes
by local instructors. To what extent is it useful to integrate these
activities? How far should a local instructor deviate from their own
curriculum to provide continuity with visiting instructors? Should the
local instructors reinforce the material taught by the visitors by
reviewing it after the visitors have left? Do follow ups complement or
compete with the workshop? Should the follow ups be conducted in classes
or supervised practicas?
How is it practical for locals instructor who attend one the tango weeks,
such as the Miami tango week, with a group of students to come back and
reinforce the material in classes or practicas?
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 09:48:06 +1000
From: John Lowry <john@LOWRYHART.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Integrating Workshops and Local Classes
>Tango is most often taught in workshops by visiting
>instructors and classes
>by local instructors.
>Stephen Brown
>Tango Argentino de Tejas
>
Our teacher (and Tango mentor) lives on the West Coast of Australia and we
live on the East Coast. Gaston (Valdes) conducts regular workshops, with his
dance partner Abha, in 5 to six locations across the country. My wife and I,
and some others, take regular coaching classes between workshops. This
system works very well, because it is focussed on one dance style
(milonguero / social / close embrace) and it maintains and builds the local
standard between intensive workshops. It also helps, together with some
regular milongas, to maintain social contact with the Tango community.
I am less certain about guest teachers. Whilst it is good to offer students
different experiences, it is likely that each guest teacher will have their
own teaching technique and dance style. Students will get mixed messages.
Before inviting a guest teacher the local teacher should a) know what they
want to achieve; b)satisfy themselves that the guest teacher's offering is
consistent with their own teaching and beliefs or is somewhere they would
like to go; c) undertake the workshops and / or extra tuition with the guest
teacher. We usually discuss the following couple of months and take some
video as a reminder of what we want to concentrate on over the next period.
On the second question of events, we attended the CITA congress a couple of
years ago. It was a great experience. We met lots of wonderful people from
around the world, had a great time dancing and enjoying the hectic pace and
classes as well as the wonderful Argentinean dance culture. On our return
though, we realised that retaining lots of information was not a realistic
expectation. Big events are best treated as a fun experience. The gain is
really the opportunity to soak up the experiences so that they can come out
in your own expression of the dance sometime.
El Abrazo
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 18:07:22 -0300
From: SMC Administracion <adm@SMCAR.COM.AR>
Subject: Integrating Workshops and Local Classes
Stephen Brown(Tango Argentino de Tejas) wrote
> >Tango is most often taught in workshops by visiting
> >instructors and classes
> >by local instructors.
and John Lowry(El Abrazo) wrote
> I am less certain about guest teachers. Whilst it is good to offer
students
> different experiences, it is likely that each guest teacher will have
their
> own teaching technique and dance style. Students will get mixed messages.
This is a most interesting subject, since there are two key facts involved :
the process
of learning, and the local community evolution.
As a student, I attend regular tango classes, but also assist to workshops,
or visit other
teachers . Also I try to keep a regular attendance to milongas .
Sometimes I feel overwhelmed .There are so many inputs from different
teachers , I thought
once to have a serious discussion with my mom, to see wether I came with
manufacturing
failures :):)
Since , the sweating student has to :
a) listen to the teacher
b) watch him
c) watch what is he/she is doing with his/her partner
d) try to do the movement with you body
e) try to lead or to follow your partner within the taught movement
f) try to do all of this, listening to the music.
And also, when you are at the milonga, is "seconds out" .You are alone,if
you are a man, having to lead a woman into a pleasant tango dancing. I could
not tell what is the situation of the women as followers , but it seems they
have a lot of expectations also , when the eyesight is established , or the
polite request at her table is made to dance.
This comments are made upon my experiences here , in Buenos Aires, where the
community of students is constantly changing , there is a movement of the
students, when they feel they are improving , to other levels of practice,
or other teachers, since the offer of teachers is high . Sometimes you met
with the other students at the milongas, maybe you dance with your fellow
students , maybe not .
I can not say wether is good or not to have workshops or local classes . I
like what John Lowry said about CITA, to take it is a fun experience. Yes,
is a good idea. Sometimes this matter of Tango is taken so deep, that the
fact of rejoicing and enjoying an encounter danced in a milonga floor is
missed.
I am reading now an excellent book written by Simone Weill , "The roots of
existence". Simone died on 1943 from tuberculosis, she lived all the horrors
of WWII , she was taken from UK to France in parachoot to join the troops of
De Gaulle . She had all to expect a somber view of situation and things on
those days. However, she writes with an outstanding intelligence . One of
the things she says is :
" It will be vain to leave away from past to think only in the future. It is
absurd the oposition of past and future. Future does not bring us nothing ,
it does not give us nothing , we are by ourselves who in order to build it
must give them all , give our own life. But to be able to give it is
necessary to have , and we do not have another life, another prime fluid ,
than the treasures inherited from the past, and swallowed, digested by
ourselves."
Warm regards
Alberto Gesualdi
Buenos Aires
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 19:36:02 -0600
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Integrating Workshops and Local Classes
Greetings all,
Steve asks many good questions to stimulate discussion.
Here are a few opinions from a leader based on my trials and
tribulations
up to this point in learning tango and teaching it locally (as an early
enthusiast in a developing community).
Stephen Brown wrote:
>
> Tango is most often taught in workshops by visiting instructors and classes
> by local instructors. To what extent is it useful to integrate these
> activities?
> How far should a local instructor deviate from their own
> curriculum to provide continuity with visiting instructors? Should the
> local instructors reinforce the material taught by the visitors by
> reviewing it after the visitors have left? Do follow ups complement or
> compete with the workshop?
In theory follow-up classes would seem extremely useful. We've tried it
locally. In practice, it doesn't work long-term. What I've seen, after
the most
successful workshops, is that the group jumps way ahead but then
gradually
looses that edge over about a month. Students are continually hungry
for and
interested in new material. If subsequent new material isn't taught at
the
same level and with sensitivity to the visiting instructor's style, then
it
dilutes what progress was previously made in the visitor's workshops.
I think that most people learn tango backwards. That is, "from the outside
to the inside". They don't start by learning the fundamentals.
Teachers
who really stress the fundamentals are often branded as 'difficult' because
it seems they are never satisfied. That's because acquiring good tango
fundamentals requires us to recognize increasingly subtle distinctions
that
are taught in stages. They are hard to reinforce because no sooner are we
comfortable with our technique and there is another level that we didn't imagine.
The 'rules' of technique seem to be always changing. Not all students
can
learn them by a single formula (as is needed in group classes) and not all
students are patient enough to continue to refine their movement.
Most people start out by learning the showy junk that catches their
newly emerging imaginations. Usually they do not get adequate feedback
on their own dancing - particularly the needed reinforcement AND criticisms
for their shortcomings. Bad habits are so easy to acquire and so hard
to
kill! In a community without an established nucleus of really quality
dancers, one of the most difficult things to learn is what, exactly,
is good tango dance and what is poor tango dance. Sharp, sometimes uninformed
differences of opinion on these points have divided communities into
factious,
uncooperative groups. [When traveling teachers get together, you should hear
them bemoan the shallow differences that derail the development of healthy
tango communities!]
Those who are fortunate enough to travel to and dance in more
experienced
communities seem to learn much more quickly what is good and what
doesn't
work. It's like learning language by immersion vs. learning from an
audio
tape.
> Should the follow ups be conducted in classes
> or supervised practicas?
Practicas.
At the University level, we assume that students should study 2-3 hours
for each hour of class time. How many students of tango spend 2-3 fold
as much time in practicas than time in class? Remember that milongas don't
count, unless you have a partner or two with whom you can achieve a
practica-style abandon without looking ridiculous. Maybe for followers
milongas are better for practice than for leaders. But leaders,
certainly,
need to make lots of mistakes in order to learn. Practice time and
practica attendance distinguishes the serious students from the socialites.
> How is it practical for local instructors who attend one (of) the tango
> weeks, such as the Miami tango week, with a group of students to come back
> and reinforce the material in classes or practicas?
The success or failure of this approach depends, IMHO, on the quality of
the students' fundamentals. If they can learn the material well, great.
If they can't, it is better to not teach it at home because it will
delay
those students in feeling and executing clean, clear tango. Having the
fundamentals means that they can understand the timing, rhythm, energy,
context, geometry and techniques inherent in the material. The goal,
after
all, is to interpret and enhance the *feelings of the music*. That's
the
inner beauty that many 'intermediate' US dancers fail to achieve with
their
abundance of under-practiced memorized material (all IMHO, of course).
I look forward to your replies and opinions and remain, primarily, a
dedicated student of this amazing dance. ...next week: Bs.As.!
Frank - Minneapolis
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frankw@mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 281-3860 (cellular/home)
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 23:10:08 -0400
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Integrating Workshops and Local Classes
----- Original Message -----
Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2002 21:09:08 -0400
From: Maria Lemus <mlemus@THE-BEACH.NET>
Subject: Re: Integrating Workshops and Local Classes
Hello all,
Alberto Gesualdi wrote:
<<Sometimes I feel overwhelmed .There are so many inputs from different
teachers , I thought once to have a serious discussion with my mom, to see
wether I came with manufacturing failures :):)>>
This is indeed an interesting discussion. I am coming to it from the
beginning tango student's point of view. This week between my private and
group class and practice, I must have had over two dozen different opinions
thrown at me ... all well meaning, for which I am most grateful.
Fortunately I have a background in dance and have gotten used to this over
the years. Different teachers and choreographers work different ways. One
has to adapt to a choreographer's style, or in the case of instruction,
respect the teacher's opinion during the class, but (wink, wink) do it one's
own way when dancing elsewhere. I think, however, that for someone who has
never had any dance experience, this could be terribly overwhelming. It has
the potential to cause tremendous confusion.
I think that with everything else in life, you can listen closely to
someone's opinion but never believe everything you hear or read or take
anyone person's word as gospel ... although each and every teacher can
contribute something positive, which the body can then sensate over time.
If you think too hard about how so and so taught something, it might stay in
the mind and not filter down to the muscles and bones. Sometimes it's great
just to have fun and practice as much as you can and let the body figure it
out. Then with experience you can follow your gut feeling. I certainly
had to yesterday ... it was funny to hear someone say do your ocho this way
when the teacher had just been working with me not more than five minutes
before, telling me to do it the opposite way!!!
Back to the topic - for me it has been great to have a steady mentorship
with one teacher at this phase of my tango study. Still, going to someone
else's group class and milongas and learning from willing leaders is also
invaluable. I'm looking forward to taking many workshops in the future and
enjoying this incredible dance even more.
Best,
Maria
Miami Beach
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 09:48:02 -0600
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Integrating Workshops and Local Classes
Manuel et al.,
Manuel Patino replied:
>
> [When traveling teachers get together, you should hear
> > them bemoan the shallow differences that derail the development of healthy
> > tango communities!]
>
> That's ironic since the divisions are often created (if not promoted) by
> some traveling teachers........
Well, it all boils down to marketing, doesn't it? In my experience,
teachers who advertise themselves as being different haven't
bad-mouthed other Argentine teachers in front of the students. But
they don't object to fanatical devotees either! Why should they?
Like any family, the traveling Argentine teachers sometimes
have their disagreements. Still, most have the sense to not
sub-divide the marketplace in which they obtain their support.
...and I must agree: some of the personalities that divide communities
are comical parodies of pettiness. ;-)
Cheers my friends,
Frank - Minneapolis
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frankw@mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 281-3860 (cellular/home)
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 00:41:49 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Integrating Workshops and Local Classes
Steve asked:
> > How far should a local instructor deviate from their own
> > curriculum to provide continuity with visiting instructors?
Frank:
. If subsequent new material isn't taught at
> the
> same level and with sensitivity to the visiting instructor's style, then
> it
> dilutes what progress was previously made in the visitor's workshops.
I agree with Frank. But maybe for different reasons than you think. I would
say, the main reasons why me and other tango students here take lessons with
visiting instructors, is because they teach things which the local
instructors cannot teach. Somebody who makes it all the way from Argentina
to Japan, and then on to Hongkong, Taiwan, Australia... usually is good
enough to have reason to be invited to the other end of the world.
I don't really see how local instructors would be able to continue "at the
same level" like the visiting instructors. If they could do that, we would
not have to invite any, would we ?
>
> I think that most people learn tango backwards. That is, "from the
outside
> to the inside". They don't start by learning the fundamentals.
> Teachers
> who really stress the fundamentals are often branded as 'difficult'
because
> it seems they are never satisfied. That's because acquiring good tango
> fundamentals requires us to recognize increasingly subtle distinctions
> that
> are taught in stages.
In this point, too, I agree with Frank. And it is often exactly those things
that the visiting instructors are better at, because they have more dance
experience. It is also these subtle qualities that they have acquired which
make them into a different class, which is the reason why we take their
lessons.
However, yes, in order to attract a lot of people, and to be able to teach a
large class (Fabian Salas, e.g., taught a workshop with about 46
attendants), they have to teach steps and things, that can be memorised,
besides exercising fundamentals. Still, it is often a very interesting
experience, when during the practise of these fundamentals the shortcomings
of those are exposed who were til then highly regarded in the community
because of their external skills, .
IMO, to get the most out of meeting a famous instructor, a private lesson is
always the best way to go. They are often expensive, but in one private
lesson you can sometimes learn more than in a whole workshop.
This experience contributes to your personal dance skills. and it depends on
you, how much you are able to absorb of the lesson. So, I think, learning is
a very personal experience, naturally it enhances the entire community, but
I think, to expect the local teachers to pick up where the famous instructor
left off is illusory. The group will continue developping, while waiting for
the next visiting instructor to take them a large step ahead.
Astrid
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 14:00:21 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Integrating Workshops and Local Classes
Frank Williams wrote:
>I think that most people learn tango backwards. That is, "from the
outside
>to the inside". They don't start by learning the fundamentals.
I think Frank offers a powerful observation--whether one ought to call it
"backwards" I am not so sure. People also seem to appreciate tango from
the outside in. I think it is fairly common for men to advance from
beginner by learning to execute complicated figures and for women to
advance by learning fancy embellishments. The complexity and flash
seemingly make up for a lack of inner substance. We become more interested
in fundamentals when we have a better idea of what tango is.
Once people have developed sufficient mastery of the complexity and tango
has penetrated to the inside, it is easier to give up the complexity and
concentrate on pure expression (which is typically much more simple). At
this point, people often discover that good mastery of the fundamentals is
essential to progressing. Consequently, teachers who stress fundamentals
find their classes full of more experienced dancers, who have the
motivation for the work, but perhaps years of dancing with poor
technique...
>Teachers who really stress the fundamentals are often branded as
>'difficult' because it seems they are never satisfied. That's because
>acquiring good tango fundamentals requires us to recognize increasingly
>subtle distinctions that are taught in stages. ...
>[N]o sooner are we comfortable with our technique and there
>is another level that we didn't imagine.
Yes, this is true, teaching the fundamentals can be among the most
challenging aspects for a tango teacher. At most stages of learning tango,
students want to increase their vocabulary of movements--increasing their
breadth while the technique instructor is offering increased depth. It is
often easier to see gains in breadth, while gains in depth can remain
hidden below the surface.
Instructors who stress the fundamentals must remember to provide
encouragement that progress is being made if they are to reach more than
the most advanced and motivated dancers. In some cases, that may mean
offering a bit of breadth to keep the student in class while working with
the depth the dancer will eventually want. In other cases, explaining how
depth is learned may be appropriate.
With best regards,
Steve
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 14:05:16 -0700
From: L Raab <lraab1@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Subject: Re: Integrating Workshops and Local Classes
>Frank Williams says:
>Teachers who really stress the fundamentals are often branded as
'difficult' because
>it seems they are never satisfied. That's because acquiring good tango
>fundamentals requires us to recognize increasingly subtle distinctions
>that are taught in stages. They are hard to reinforce because no sooner
are we
>comfortable with our technique and there is another level that we didn't
imagine.
>The 'rules' of technique seem to be always changing. Not all students
>can learn them by a single formula (as is needed in group classes) and
not all
>students are patient enough to continue to refine their movement.
Very true! But it's more to the point of the teacher being a
perfectionist
AND valuing his/her reputation, too. Any student who is asked who their
teacher
is is a reflection upon the competance of the teacher. If the student is
a lousy
dancer because of the lack of sound fundamentals, it will hurt the
reputation of the
teacher. Without naming names, I can tell you we have an exceptional
tango teacher
here in the bay area who is a stickler on details and fundamentals. I
continue to take
classes from her because of her keen eye for details. Happily her
classes at Stanford
and the Palo Alto YWCA are always full of students who appreciate her
ability
to teach sound fundamentals.
>Most people start out by learning the showy junk that catches their
>newly emerging imaginations. Usually they do not get adequate feedback
>on their own dancing - particularly the needed reinforcement AND
criticisms
>for their shortcomings. Bad habits are so easy to acquire and so hard
>to kill! In a community without an established nucleus of really
quality
>dancers, one of the most difficult things to learn is what, exactly,
>is good tango dance and what is poor tango dance. Sharp, sometimes
uninformed
>differences of opinion on these points have divided communities into
>factious, uncooperative groups. [When traveling teachers get together,
you should hear
>them bemoan the shallow differences that derail the development of
healthy
>tango communities!]
I went through this stage, too. Eager to learn the fancy steps and
patterns only to realize
how crappy I looked dancing because of the lack of fundamentals.
lraab
Date: Thu, 11 Apr 2002 17:24:23 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Integrating Workshops and Local Classes
>Frank Williams <frankw@mail.ahc.umn.edu>
>I think that most people learn tango backwards. That is, "from the
>outside to the inside". They don't start by learning the
>fundamentals. Teachers who really stress the fundamentals are often
>branded as 'difficult' because it seems they are never satisfied.
>That's because acquiring good tango fundamentals requires us to
>recognize increasingly subtle distinctions that are taught in
>stages. They are hard to reinforce because no sooner are we
>comfortable with our technique and there is another level that we
>didn't imagine. The 'rules' of technique seem to be always changing.
>Not all students can learn them by a single formula (as is needed in
>group classes) and not all students are patient enough to continue
>to refine their movement.
I understand what you say about teachers who emphasize technique and
fundamentals being branded difficult. Excessive focus on details and
technique has a tendency to reduce class attendance.
I remain committed to the idea that technique isn't as important as
feeling, connection, musicality, embrace, etc...
On the other hand, I agree that fundamentals are important.
What is the difference between TECHNIQUE and FUNDAMENTALS?
It is easy to swamp students, especially new students, with too many
technical details. For a guy it makes it hard for them to concentrate
on leading & navigating; for a woman it makes her worry about whether
she is "doing it right". How can she enjoy tango if she is anxious?
Tango has many layers, and it is so much easier to learn if the
layers are ordered properly. The teacher has to understand which
layers are more fundamental, i.e. which ones are most necessary for
the next layer.
For example,
- Musicality is built on Rhythm. If your beginners don't understand,
feel and REALLY incorporate rhythm,the beat, & the quicks & slows,
then it is incredibly difficult to teach musicality.
- Improvisation is built out of small simple elements and how to
assemble them on the dance floor. If you teach memorized sequences or
figures it is really difficult to teach navigation for a social dance
floor.
- Lead-follow is built on connection; tango requires a strong unity
between the couple. If instead of connection you teach choreographed
figures, then you eliminate the lead-follow and permit people to
disconnect. In particular if women are trained to choreograph their
half of the figure, then they have a very hard time learning to
follow and dance socially.
(((
I will go so far as to say, that women's technique frequently causes
more harm than good. Even if it is "good" technique. It often traps a
woman into ONE particular way of moving, and that is not helpful in
tango since there are so many different styles of leader. So a woman
who studies over and over with one teacher or within one school is
less adaptable.
)))
I've seen several quite different methodologies which work well, so
it isn't like there is one true path.
I've seen other methodologies that seem to drive them away.
Obviously I do not believe that the 8 Count Basic teaches good
fundamentals for social tango. It doesn't address any of the three
things I mentioned above... I acknowledge that it helps people
choreograph stage figures. But really, how many social dancers do you
know who construct their dance out of the 8 Count Basic?
>Most people start out by learning the showy junk that catches their
>newly emerging imaginations. Usually they do not get adequate
>feedback on their own dancing - particularly the needed
>reinforcement AND criticisms for their shortcomings. Bad habits are
>so easy to acquire and so hard to kill! In a community without an
>established nucleus of really quality dancers, one of the most
>difficult things to learn is what, exactly, is good tango dance and
>what is poor tango dance. Sharp, sometimes uninformed differences
>of opinion on these points have divided communities into factious,
>uncooperative groups. [When traveling teachers get together,
I don't agree with you here.
Most people start out by learning what their teachers show them.
- If the teachers show internal, deep, connected tango, they will
attract and keep internal, deep & connected people.
- Showing external, flashy steps will attract external, flashy
people and drive away the deep, quiet internal ones.
- Analytical teaching filters to attract analytical people, but
drive away more intuitive personalities,
- The lure of Romance and parties attracts a different sort of
person than the kind who wants to learn a lot of technique and
correct styling.
Have you had the experience of teaching ballroom vs lindy dancers?
How about ballerinas vs massage therapists?
Computer programmers are very interesting. Although you may expect
them to prefer the analytical approach, I notice that they are
frequently have a very strong attraction to the intuitive/artistic
side. Perhaps they went into computers hoping for creativity, but are
just sick and tired of 80 hour weeks pounding out code.
Retention rates rarely reach 50% from newcomer to "adv-beginner".
Then there is another 50% loss from adv-beginner to intermediate. (If
you are doing better than this, speak up so we all can learn!)
If the fallout is so high, then it pays to think about which ones
stay and which ones leave, and then figure out how what to teach in
order to keep the ones who will learn. If the teacher's goal is stage
performance, then teach in such a manner that you attract more
stage/performance oriented students.
If the goal is social tango, then it would be absurd to begin by
teaching fancy steps. Instead, teach how to dance socially.
>Those who are fortunate enough to travel to and dance in more
>experienced communities seem to learn much more quickly what is good
>and what doesn't work. It's like learning language by immersion vs.
>learning from an audio tape.
These are very good suggestions. At every level of skill people
should travel to better, bigger, and perhaps just "different"
communities.
> > Should the follow ups be conducted in classes
>> or supervised practicas?
>
>Practicas.
>At the University level, we assume that students should study 2-3
>hours for each hour of class time. How many students of tango spend
>2-3 fold as much time in practicas than time in class? Remember
>that milongas don't count, unless you have a partner or two with
>whom you can achieve a practica-style abandon without looking
>ridiculous. Maybe for followers milongas are better for practice
>than for leaders. But leaders, certainly, need to make lots of
>mistakes in order to learn. Practice time and practica attendance
>distinguishes the serious students from the socialites.
You do need time to incorporate lessons, but I don't think it matters
so much whether you practice or dance at a party. The important thing
is to just dance.
8 hours per week over 3 years vs 3 hours per week over 8 years.
Getting good at tango is not a difficult mathematical chore.
--
Tom Stermitz
2612 Clermont St
Denver, CO 80207
home: 303-388-2560
cell: 303-725-5963
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:08:32 +1000
From: John Lowry <john@LOWRYHART.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Integrating Workshops and Local Classes
Astrid writes:
Somebody who makes it all the way
>from Argentina
>to Japan, and then on to Hongkong, Taiwan, Australia... usually is good
>enough to have reason to be invited to the other end of the world.
Be careful though, the vast majority of visiting teachers that we see in
Australia are either would-be or professional performers. We have backed
right off visiting teachers from Argentina because they are not as good at
teaching social tango as some local teachers. Unfortunately they all have
the "stamp of authenticity" because of their origins, whether they are any
good or not.
>> that
>> are taught in stages.
Was that "in stages" or "on stages" ;-)
>
>I think, to expect the local teachers to pick up where the
>famous instructor
>left off is illusory. The group will continue developing,
>while waiting for
>the next visiting instructor to take them a large step ahead.
>
Our experience is quite the opposite. Local dancers are learning much more
and better in their regular classes and lessons. Guest teachers just add
interest.
El Abrazo
>
>
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 10:48:29 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Integrating Workshops and Local Classes
I agree with Tom that:
>Most people start out by learning what their teachers show them.
> - If the teachers show internal, deep, connected tango, they
>will attract and keep internal, deep & connected people.
> - Showing external, flashy steps will attract external, flashy
>people and drive away the deep, quiet internal ones.
But I also agree with Frank that many people approach tango from the
outside in, and that they often pass through a stage in which they will
want to learn the external, flashy steps. It is a rite of passage for many
dancers. After developing sufficient mastery and confidence, they find it
easy to give the external, flashy steps...
Furthermore, those who are interested in the external, flashy steps do not
necessarily disappear from tango. Instead they gravitate toward the
teachers who dance that way and provide that style of instruction.
One of the fundamental issues facing the development of any tango community
is that exhibitions of show tango are thrilling to many people, and it
these exhibitions that frequently provide people with their first exposure
to tango. Yet, the people who are attracted by these performances are not
necessarily going to be the internal, deep and connected people who thrive
on the social form of tango.
With best regards,
Steve
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:42:46 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Integrating Workshops and Local Classes
>I agree with Tom that:
>>Most people start out by learning what their teachers show them.
>> - If the teachers show internal, deep, connected tango, they
>>will attract and keep internal, deep & connected people.
>> - Showing external, flashy steps will attract external, flashy
> >people and drive away the deep, quiet internal ones.
>...
>One of the fundamental issues facing the development of any tango community
>is that exhibitions of show tango are thrilling to many people, and it
>these exhibitions that frequently provide people with their first exposure
>to tango. Yet, the people who are attracted by these performances are not
>necessarily going to be the internal, deep and connected people who thrive
>on the social form of tango.
Yes, people become emotionally attracted to tango by watching stage
performances. The music, the movements the passion...I don't deny
this, although I have a caveat:
I think some people mistakenly see the external movements as
containing the passion. With good dancers it is really the internal
connection and spirit that make the external movements so compelling.
A wicked boleo isn't passionate in and of itself; the connection
between the dancers and the energy that gets passed from the leader
to provoke a boleo...THAT is where the passion comes from.
Most of us have seen tango exhibitions with amateurs who don't have
full command of their bodies, or confuse complicated choreography for
excitement. We don't get the same feeling of passion from the
external movements when the dancers don't have a good internal
foundation.
Many of us have also seen technically proficient, complicated tango
but without much emotion or feeling.
An example of the alternative:
In Denver we have the occasional or odd performance of tango, but
really not very many. Many if not most newcomers' first impression of
tango comes from stopping in at a social dance, the practice or
milonga. This seems most compelling for those destined to become
fanatics in the community.
What grabs them (you see it in their eyes, their dropped jaws) is
when they watch a whole room full of social dancers, moving as if by
magic through complex and intricate footsteps, while at the same time
embracing so amazingly close and unified, connected to the music like
in a trance.
How do they do it!?
I notice that more frequently it is the TEACHERS who like
performance, not necessarily the STUDENTS. Maybe there is a filter
that compels tango dancers who like exhibition dancing to become
teachers.
--
-----
"To my way of thinking the tango is, above all, rhythm,
nerve, force, character...I tried to restore to the tango
its masculine quality." -- Juan D'Arienzo (1949)
-----
Tom Stermitz
- Stermitz@Ragtime.org
- 303-725-5963
- https://www.tango.org/dance/EternaTeaching.html
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 12:46:42 -0500
From: Bibib Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Integrating Workshops and Local Classes
Dear List members,
I wish to respond to Astrid's posting made a week ago.
"Somebody who makes it all the way from Argentina to Japan, and then on to
Hongkong, Taiwan, Australia... usually is good enough to have reason to be
invited to the other end of the world."
From I noticed by learning from the travelling teachers and local teachers
here and there in various cities, I am a bit hesitated to agree with her
statement.
There are certain reasons why some teachers get to travel a lot to teach.
Besides their teaching skills, should we also factor their marketing skills,
their social skills, and/or their dancing skills (particularly the school
that favours show-dancing)?
Also, I noticed there are plenty good teachers who, by race, are not
Argentinean.
With due respect, as my personal opinion--- which Astrid does not have to
agree with, dancers in Japan (who I admit are also lovely dancers) appears
to be "brand" conscious.
"... most out of meeting a famous instructor, a private lesson is always the
best way to go. They are often expensive, but in one private lesson you can
sometimes learn more than in a whole workshop."
I think it has much to do with mathematics of cost, and the goal of the
students. By latter, I mean whether the student wants to learn a specific
subject by him/herself *alone*, or if he/she wants to learn how to interface
the skills with a partner/ partners.
There is no point to polish oneself in a social dance setting, assuming that
the other person will know without taking the class, and that everything
will fall into place automatically. When it does not pan out, will this
student be susceptible to blame his/her partner?
How about getting hold of a partner, or arranging a "four-some", of
extremely close dance skill level, to take 2 to 3 semi-private classes on an
agreed curriculum? Armed with a clear goal in mind, with the classes
scheduled few days apart and intense intre-practice sessions between the
classes, the student may be able to go farther than struggling alone.
Bibi
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 13:45:57 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Integrating Workshops and Local Classes
Frank wrote:
>>Teachers who really stress the fundamentals are often
>>branded as 'difficult' because it seems they are never satisfied.
Tom replied:
>I understand what you say about teachers who emphasize technique and
>fundamentals being branded difficult.
I think a distinction should be made between those who teach challenging
classes and those who are difficult. I think it is completely possible to
teach challenging material without being considered difficult as a person
or an instructor.
Tom continued:
>Excessive focus on details and technique has a tendency
>to reduce class attendance.
I agree with Tom that focusing on the details can be too much for many
students. Most students, particularly beginners, need to get a sense of
the big picture of what tango is about. If they are interested in the
details they can pursue them in more advanced classes, specialized classes,
or private lessons.
>Yes, people become emotionally attracted to tango by watching stage
>performances. The music, the movements the passion...I don't deny
>this, although I have a caveat:
>I think some people mistakenly see the external movements as
>containing the passion. ...
>With good dancers it is really the internal connection and spirit
>that make the external movements so compelling. A wicked boleo
>isn't passionate in and of itself; the connection between the
>dancers and the energy that gets passed from the leader to provoke
>a boleo...THAT is where the passion comes from.
I agree completely. It is the inner passion and connection that makes the
external movements thrilling. I also would agree that many people who see
their first tango on the stage don't have a clue about what makes the
exaggerated movements they see seem compelling. It's too exotic for them
to comprehend... (A person with a rather shallow understanding of tango
might describe stage tango as the sizzle that sells the steak when, in
fact, the sizzle sells the sizzle.) That is the very reason I think that
quite a few people come to tango with expectations that may not be met.
The stage dancers cannot teach them the passion. The social dancers will
not teach them the flashy moves...
I think that teachers who are better able to convey a sense of what tango
is, where the passion truly is, and who rely upon word of mouth to promote
their classe are better able to attract and retain their students. Scenes
like the one Tom describes in Denver are also big attractions:
>What grabs them (you see it in their eyes, their dropped jaws) is
>when they watch a whole room full of social dancers, moving as if by
>magic through complex and intricate footsteps, while at the same time
>embracing so amazingly close and unified, connected to the music like
>in a trance.
>Most of us have seen tango exhibitions with amateurs who don't have
>full command of their bodies, or confuse complicated choreography for
>excitement. We don't get the same feeling of passion from the
>external movements when the dancers don't have a good internal
>foundation.
I have also seen tango exhibitions with dancers who had good moves and
fundamentals but no inner passion. NOT very interesting at all.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 11:35:06 -0700
From: NANCY <ningle_2000@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Integrating Workshops and Local Classes
--- Tom Stermitz <stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG> wrote:
>
>
> I notice that more frequently it is the TEACHERS who
> like
> performance, not necessarily the STUDENTS. Maybe
> there is a filter
> that compels tango dancers who like exhibition
> dancing to become
> teachers.
>
>
Hi Tom,
I think it is the other way around: those who want
to perform on stage are hard-pressed to make a living
at it, so they promote themselves as teachers, hoping
to continue to do stage-work as their primary vocation
and to use their stage renown to get them jobs as
teachers. These folks dance for the acclaim of
others. Some of them even do their stage tango on the
salon floors of BsAs to the great consternation of the
social dancers.
Those who are the consumate social dancers just
want to make enough money to get into the milongas,
have a cidra or two, buy some cigarettes, maybe take a
woman out for a cafecito. So they drive a cab, make
shoes, work in a bank, whatever - something that is
not too demanding on their waking hours. These guys
dance for themselves and their partners. They would
not dream of passing themselves off as teachers
because they know that the soul of tango dance cannot
be taught.
Is this over-simplifying?
Nancy
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 09:29:29 -0600
From: Brian Dunn <brianpdunn@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Integrating Workshops and Local Classes
Tom wrote:
>>>
In Denver we have the occasional or odd performance of tango, but
really not very many.
<<<
In the Denver/Boulder metro area, since the start of this year, we have had
tango dance performances by both local and visiting professional tango
dancers on average about two or three times a month. Besides milongas,
these performances are at art openings, restaurants, schools, parties, and
theatrical venues with 50-200 people in attendance. Many of the attendees
are getting their first exposure to live tango. This sounds like a lot of
tango performances to me.
I would be interested in getting comparisons of the frequency of similar
performances from those who live in other communities of a few hundred
dancers.
>>>
I notice that more frequently it is the TEACHERS who like
performance, not necessarily the STUDENTS.
<<<
In the Denver/Boulder metro area, since the start of this year, there have
been two multi-session workshops focusing specifically on tango performance,
one with Joe Corbata lasting four weekly sessions and one with Heather
Morrow lasting six bimonthly sessions (still ongoing). Each class had an
attendance of twenty to thirty enthusiastic students, most with three or
more years of tango. This sounds like a lot of student interest in tango
performance to me.
Again, I would be interested in hearing from those in other communities
about how many performance-specific workshops their communities support.
>>>
Many if not most newcomers' first impression of tango comes from stopping in
at a social dance, the practice or milonga. This seems most compelling for
those destined to become fanatics in the community.
<<<
Since reading this I have been asking every fanatic I meet in the
Denver/Boulder tango scene how they got their first impression of tango.
Every one of them reported that it was watching a tango performance, as
opposed to "stopping in" at a social dance or practica. Again, I would be
interested in hearing the observations of others on this (although by
reading the list here, it should be an easy call).
Even the most superficial reading of tango history will show that the growth
of tango in places outside of South America was almost exclusively due to
traveling individuals or couples putting on exhibitions.
What I don't understand is this strange perceived distinction between
"social tango dancers" and "performance tango dancers", as if you can't be
one person and enjoy both. This wierd typing of teachers and individuals as
either one or the other at the personality level sounds like a very
peculiarly North American tango fixation. In Buenos Aires, social tango and
performance tango mix very smoothly - exhibitions both formal and informal
are a trivially common occurrence, and you are not expected to brand
yourself as one or the other "type" of tango dancer. Where does this
strange idea come from?
Watch Julio and Corina in performance, then watch them social dance - same
people, same passion,
same music, same dance, same expressiveness, different setting, modified
vocabulary as a consequence. No big deal. No need for divisive
stereotyping.
Abrazos,
Brian
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2002 15:03:11 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Social and Stage Tango (Was: Integrating Workshops and Local Classes)
Brian Dunn wrote:
>>What I don't understand is this strange perceived distinction between
"social tango dancers" and "performance tango dancers", as if you can't be
one person and enjoy both.<<
I would not make a distinction between social and performance dancers, but
certainly we must recognize a difference between dancing in milongas and
dancing on the stage. Stage tango has common elements with the social form
of tango, but it typically has exaggerated movements and elements of
ballet. Dancing in milongas emphasizes a personal connection and
navigation/improvisation. One might suspect that somewhat different skills
are emphasized in the two approaches to dancing.
Once we have made a distinction between the required skills, it is easy to
imagine specialization... It is quite conceivable that people with
sufficient dance skills who are incapable of dancing tango in milongas
would still be able to dance choreographed routines that are based on
tango. It is also quite conceivable that we would be bored out of our
minds watching some old milonguero who is dancing on stage in a close
embrace with La Yumba rhythm and transmitting those all-so-important subtle
movements to his partner...
Now, let's make the transition to teaching... Many tango dancers who have
a background on the stage teach memorized figures and often rely on the
eight-count basic to do so. Those who have the goal of conveying dance
skills for milongas typically start with walking and emphasize
improvisational/navigational skills.
In contrast to some individuals, I do think that it is completely possible
for someone to develop the necessary skills for dancing in milongas by
learning memorized figures based on the eight-count basic, but me must
recognize that most people really stop learning tango when they reach a
sufficient level of competence/comfort in their dancing. It is then a
question of what you want people to learn when they are only going to take
6, 12 or 18 lessons and a couple of workshops... For those who learn
memorized figures, the likely stopping point will come before they develop
improvisational/navigational skills necessary for dancing in milongas. For
those who start with an emphasis on improvisation and navigation, the
likely stopping point at least won't make them a hazard at a milonga.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 11:57:37 -0700
From: Robert Dodier <robert_dodier@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: How I got hooked on tango, was: Integrating Workshops and Local Classes
Brian Dunn wrote:
> Since reading this I have been asking every fanatic
> I meet in the Denver/Boulder tango scene how they
> got their first impression of tango.
Hey, well, since you ask... I got my first impression
to tango at a salsa party a long time ago. There was
a break and some people were showing off. One of
the couples danced a tango or two, and I thought,
wow, that looks cool. But at the time nothing
came of it.
Later on I was casting about for another scene --
you know how it is, scenes come and go, both
individually and collectively -- and I took a few
tango classes. One day we were practicing close
embrace and I was the odd man out for one song. So
I was watching two of my classmates... and I could
not take my eyes off them, although I thought it
would be rude to stare! Wow! You do that standing up?!
(To quote someone more clever than myself.) That's
when I thought, I want to know what they know. Then
I was hooked. :^)
Since then I've been inspired to hang in there --
or maybe I'm just really stubborn, it amounts to
the same thing. Some days I "know what they know"
and some days I don't; good days more than make up
for the rest.
For what it's worth,
Robert "2% inspiration" Dodier
