2256 Is the music the dance?
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:20:07 -0800
From: Philip Seyer <philipseyer@ILOVEMUSIC.COM>
Subject: Is the music the dance?
Why is Argentine tango so exciting, mesmerizing, intimate, romantic? Why
does it foster such a deep connection between partners? I think a large
part of it is due to the music. We dance to music (most of the time) and
Argentine tango music is so expressive and it grows on you.
Some say that the music *is* the dance. For example, they say if we dance
Argentine tango steps to Fox trot music, then we are really dancing Fox
trot. In this case, I'm not sure. The steps are certainly important too
and the steps themselves give me a certain feeling of intimacy that are not
present in Fox trot steps. I think it is the combination of music and
movement that makes a dance -- not just the music.
What do you call it when you dance Argentine tango style to smooth jazz?
Case in point -- please take a look at the video clip at
https://www.argentine-tango.com (scroll down to the video clips section) --
this is an extended version of the clip you may have seen earlier of Ken
Delmar dancing with Elaine Seroies. Ken calls this "club tango." Argentine
tango steps seem to fit this music quite well. I can't think of another way
of dancing to it. Ken comments, "Some people are just tango dancers -- so
they will dance tango to whatever music is playing."
https://www.tango-sanfrancisco.com
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:21:35 -0800
From: Elemer Dubrovay <dubrovay@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Fw: [TANGO-L] Is the music the dance?
Delmar dancing with Elaine Seroies. Ken calls this "club tango."
Argentine
tango steps seem to fit this music quite well. I can't think of another
way
of dancing to it. Ken comments,
"Some people are just tango dancers -- so
they will dance tango to whatever music is playing."
*********************
In my experience it is because they have no idea how to dance any other
music, so they dance tango steps not realizing how funny they look.
trying to follow the music in a clumsy way.
The way Delmar and Elaine dance in the clip looks like they are
practicing the steps with the wrong music.
Good dancers can dance different Tango styles and other dances.
Elemer in Redmond
**********
--------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:20:07 -0800
Subject: [TANGO-L] Is the music the dance?
References: <3F69B976-623B-11D8-BF2C-0003930AC352@comcast.net>
Why is Argentine tango so exciting, mesmerizing, intimate, romantic? Why
does it foster such a deep connection between partners? I think a large
part of it is due to the music. We dance to music (most of the time) and
Argentine tango music is so expressive and it grows on you.
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 15:57:02 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Fw: [TANGO-L] Is the music the dance?
I find it strange that an invitation to view a video about tango dancing
to other music would open with Phil's text that reads:
>>Why is Argentine tango so exciting, mesmerizing, intimate, romantic? Why
>>Why does it foster such a deep connection between partners? I think a
>>large part of it is due to the music. We dance to music ... and
>>Argentine tango music is so expressive and it grows on you.
Which really raises the question, why are Ken and Elaine dancing to smooth
jazz? Not that I am opposed to people doing it, but it might be helpful
to understand the context of their exhibtion--particularly because they
are not regular dance partners.
According to Phil:
>Ken calls this "club tango."
The term club-style tango has already been used to identify a close
embrace style taught by Eduardo Arquimbau.
Would ought one call tango steps danced to smooth jazz? One can think of
lots of things... "Club Tango" doesn't come to my mind. ;-)
How do they look dancing tango to smooth jazz on the online video? I
agree with Elemer's assessment. On the video, the music and dancing do
not fit well together, and they look clumsy trying to force it. Is this
the fault of the video?
By the way, both Ken and Elaine are completely capable of dancing other
dances.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
In the meantime let me provide a link to my website. ;-)
https://www.tejastango.com/
Hey! At least it's not a commercial website, nor a website hosted by a
non-profit organization that behaves like a commercial enterprise.
Now let me talk about two threads in social dancing. One is creative
movement. The other is the relationship between a man and woman.
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 23:29:53 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Is the music the dance?
Elemer in Redmond wrote:
>In my experience it is because they have no idea how to dance any other
>music, so they dance tango steps not realizing how funny they look.
>trying to follow the music in a clumsy way.
Good point. I have seen recently a demo tango dance to slow swing music. I
couldn't help thinking how much more fun it would be to see (or to dance)
Lindy Hop to the same melody. Tango to "hopping" music just does not look or
feel right to me.
Tango - smooth walk/steps/music/feel
Swing (Lindy Hop) - hopping walk/steps/music/feel
Milonga - swaying walk/steps/music/feel (mostly)
Cheers, Oleh Kovalchuke
https://TangoSpring.com
>From: Elemer Dubrovay <dubrovay@JUNO.COM>
>Reply-To: Elemer Dubrovay <dubrovay@JUNO.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] Fw: [TANGO-L] Is the music the dance?
>Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 13:21:35 -0800
>
>Delmar dancing with Elaine Seroies. Ken calls this "club tango."
>Argentine
>tango steps seem to fit this music quite well. I can't think of another
>way
>of dancing to it. Ken comments,
>
>"Some people are just tango dancers -- so
>they will dance tango to whatever music is playing."
>*********************
>In my experience it is because they have no idea how to dance any other
>music, so they dance tango steps not realizing how funny they look.
>trying to follow the music in a clumsy way.
>The way Delmar and Elaine dance in the clip looks like they are
>practicing the steps with the wrong music.
>Good dancers can dance different Tango styles and other dances.
>
>Elemer in Redmond
>**********
>
>--------- Forwarded message ----------
>From: Philip Seyer <philipseyer@ILOVEMUSIC.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2004 16:20:07 -0800
>Subject: [TANGO-L] Is the music the dance?
>References: <3F69B976-623B-11D8-BF2C-0003930AC352@comcast.net>
>
>Why is Argentine tango so exciting, mesmerizing, intimate, romantic? Why
>does it foster such a deep connection between partners? I think a large
>part of it is due to the music. We dance to music (most of the time) and
>Argentine tango music is so expressive and it grows on you.
https://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200365ave/direct/01/
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 20:33:10 -0800
From: Jonathan Thornton <jnt@NOYAU.COM>
Subject: Fw: [TANGO-L] Is the music the dance?
Stephen,
Phil has raised a question that I've been procastinating pondering and
your reply finally motivated me to go to the site and watch the video. I'd
like to first see what you and anyone else thinks of the dancing with the
sound muted. Watching them dance and perhaps imagining you hear a tango
playing. What do you think of their dance when you don't have the jazz
playing?
>How do they look dancing tango to smooth jazz on the online video? I
>agree with Elemer's assessment. On the video, the music and dancing do
>not fit well together, and they look clumsy trying to force it. Is this
>the fault of the video?
With the music turned off would you still view the dancing as "clumsy" and
"forced"? Is the fault still with the video? or is it with the audio?
peace,
Jonathan Thornton
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:08:23 -0600
From: Hector <maselli@GATE.NET>
Subject: Re: Is the music the dance?
On Feb 20, 2004, at 2:00 AM, Automatic digest processor wrote:
>In the meantime let me provide a link to my website. ;-)
>https://www.tejastango.com/
>Hey! At least it's not a commercial website, nor a website hosted by a
>non-profit organization that behaves like a commercial enterprise.
What's your point?
Ego beats commerce?
Vanity is fair?
Talk is cheap?
Sonas como una vieja en minifalda tratando de bailar tango en chancletas.
Hector
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 08:21:14 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Is the music the dance?
Jonathan Thornton writes:
> Stephen Brown writes:
> >How do they look dancing tango to smooth jazz on the online video? I
> >agree with Elemer's assessment. On the video, the music and dancing do
> >not fit well together, and they look clumsy trying to force it. Is this
> >the fault of the video?
>
> With the music turned off would you still view the dancing as "clumsy" and
> "forced"? Is the fault still with the video? or is it with the audio?
In my opinion, the fault is mostly with the audio,
to use your terminology.
Club-style tango is very rhythmic. The jazz music
it's being danced to in the video consists of a lot
of noodling that, while not arrhythmic, is convoluted
enough to make the dancing seem ridiculous, or at least
totally superfluous and completely ignorable. It's
almost an annoying distraction to the music, as in,
"Would you people please take that stuff outside, we're
trying to listen to some jazz here."
I tried watching the video with the music off and
playing a rhythmic club-style tango in my head, and
the dancing seemed fine, with one caveat: It could
have used a little more staccato emphasis to match the
club-style rhythm of the tango playing in my head, which
the dancers probably would have been inspired to provide
had the proper music been there.
Huck
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:08:08 -0700
From: Kathryn Krueger <kathryn@SERV.NET>
Subject: Re: Is the music the dance?
> Tango - smooth walk/steps/music/feel
> Swing (Lindy Hop) - hopping walk/steps/music/feel
> Milonga - swaying walk/steps/music/feel (mostly)
Swing music doesn't always have a hopping feel, and the dance isn't always
done with a bouncy motion. Sometimes it's smooth. Depending on the music
and the dancers, smooth style swing can look anything from exquisite to
out of place.
I think Tango probably blends a little more easily with a smoother style
lindy hop. I'm not sure what makes it work vs. not working, but I know
that it can look stunning -- I'm someone who primarily lindy hops, and I
was initially drawn over to tango by a couple doing some amazing "swango"
at a late night swing venue a year or two back. I thought it was the most
amazing thing I'd ever seen.
Kathryn
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:46:43 -0800
From: Sean Dockery <sean13@MYREALBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: Is the music the dance?
Oleh wrote:
>Elemer in Redmond wrote:
>In my experience it is because they have no idea how to dance any other
>music, so they dance tango steps not realizing how funny they look.
>trying to follow the music in a clumsy way.
Good point. I have seen recently a demo tango dance to slow swing music. I
couldn't help thinking how much more fun it would be to see (or to dance)
Lindy Hop to the same melody. Tango to "hopping" music just does not look or
feel right to me.
I haven't watched the video clip, so I cannot speak to the dancing there. However, there was a demo at the Alternative milonga in SF (hosted by Home=
r) last week that was danced to jazz, and it was amazing.
I'll admit, to those traditionalists out there, this was at least on the outer edge of what might be called tango: there were underarm turns, some =
lifts, embrace without the use of the hands or arms, and a lot of what was once called "nuevo" all done to this amazing jazz music. From what I u=
nderstand it was all improvized, and it was increadably musical. I could imagine many more traditional folks saying "that's not tango" But who c=
ares? Really, they had connection, they were dancing to the music, they enjoyed themselves, what else matters?
I certainly wasn't thinking that they ought to be dancing swing or lindy hop or what ever, I was just thinking, "that looks increadable!". Unfortun=
ately I cannot remember the name of the dancer (who was from out of town) perhaps somebody from SF can chime in?
Of course, I prefer tango music (thats what drew me in in the first place), but I've had some lovely tango dances to french waltez, kletzmer (sp?) m=
usic, Eastern European music, jazz, blues, etc. in alternative venues.
Open minds and beautiful all,
Sean
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 11:57:03 -0600
From: Frank Williams <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Is the music the dance?
You guys piqued my curiosity.
Steve: Why are Ken and Elaine dancing to smooth jazz?
Jonathan: With the music turned off would you still view the dancing as
"clumsy" and "forced"? Is the fault still with the video? or is it with the
audio?
Elemer: The way Delmar and Elaine dance in the clip looks like they are
practicing the steps with the wrong music.
Three astute comments/questions, IMO. Let me add:
1. My compliments to the person holding the camera. Nice job.
2. Right, Steve. Why indeed? Because the very cool music is SO inspiring
of - a close embrace clogging the aisle used by the waiters??? Please!
3. I'll forego diplomacy today and answer Jonathan. Yes, no, no. Not so
much clumsy as appearing 'forced' to a viewer. Where in that jazz music is
the energy that would inspire Ken or Elaine to dance their steps cleanly? I
don't hear it and obviously (as evidenced by Ken's head bobbing mostly
against the music) neither do they. With or without the sound it looks a
little like 'sleep tangoing'. I don't mean to be negative about the
dancers, I'm sure they can do better! I do criticize the situation in which
they chose to perform (a video equals performance to me). Brave of them to
allow it on the web.
4. Elemer's comment raises the question of whether this should even be
considered practice. Not for the steps per se! As an intellectual exercise
for the dancers, OK. Why not? A juxtaposition and contrast between "input
and output" (for lack of better terms). We had basically the same
discussion recently about the video of Mauricio and Carla (but they were
clean!). Movement and lead-follow interactions can, by them selves,
generate and inspire feelings that you can throw up *against* all kinds of
music. That might be to inspired tango interpretations what a can of paint
splatting against canvas is to the paintings of the 'Flemish masters'
(Rubens, Van Dyck, et al.). [Got a better analogy? Shoot it to me
off-line. ;-)] I'll spare you my rant concerning the similar emotional
mismatch generally inherent to WCS. For me it's the same issue. What might
feel interesting as a dancer can sometimes look pretty inappropriate. If
you, as a dancer, want to favor other people's eyes, you better pay
attention to how THEY feel about what's going in their ears.
Bottom line on the video: Ken WAS smiling; that dress was VERY red! Turn
off the camera, go back to your glass of wine and leave the kids alone.
Finally, IS the music the dance? To people who are watching AND listening,
yes - more so than most dancers realize.
Saludos,
Frank - Mpls.
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D.
University of Minnesota
frankw@umn.edu
612-625-6441
Department of Neuroscience
6-145 Jackson Hall
321 Church St. SE.
Minneapolis, MN 55455
Department of Veterinary and Biomedical Sciences
1971 Commonwealth Ave.
St. Paul, Minnesota 55108
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:50:02 -0500
From: John Gleeson <john.gleeson@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Is the music the dance?
Well, I finally had to jump in against my better judgement :<)
And allow me to preface this comment with a "IMHO".
In some instances maybe the dance precedes the music; in
others maybe the steps are "created" to fit the music.
BUT - the dance and the music are equal but inseparable.
They go together.
The tango "dance" is performed to tango "music". When you
dance the "dance to some other, rthymically different and emotionally
different, music, it is NOT the tango. The steps/rhythm/etc usually
have to be modified in order to make it work and it becomes a
different dance.
The Argentine Vals is waltz "music", and the steps are tango-like,
but nevertheless they are modified to match the different rhythm.
So, it is no longer a tango. Maybe it needs a different name. In fact
some people call it a Tango-Waltz in order to differentiate it from
the "real" tango.
In similar manner, the name "swango" for tango-like steps danced
to swing music. It might work (I've never seen it) BUT IT ISN'T
TANGO!
Yes, it is important to call a spade a spade. And to call something
spade-like "something else". For the sake of accuracy, if for
nothing else.
As I said IMHO :<)
John G.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Is the music the dance?
Oleh wrote:
>Elemer in Redmond wrote:
>In my experience it is because they have no idea how to dance any other
>music, so they dance tango steps not realizing how funny they look.
>trying to follow the music in a clumsy way.
Good point. I have seen recently a demo tango dance to slow swing music. I
couldn't help thinking how much more fun it would be to see (or to dance)
Lindy Hop to the same melody. Tango to "hopping" music just does not look or
feel right to me.
I haven't watched the video clip, so I cannot speak to the dancing there. However, there was a demo at the Alternative milonga in SF
(hosted by Homer) last week that was danced to jazz, and it was amazing.
I'll admit, to those traditionalists out there, this was at least on the outer edge of what might be called tango: there were
underarm turns, some lifts, embrace without the use of the hands or arms, and a lot of what was once called "nuevo" all done to this
amazing jazz music. From what I understand it was all improvized, and it was increadably musical. I could imagine many more
traditional folks saying "that's not tango" But who cares? Really, they had connection, they were dancing to the music, they
enjoyed themselves, what else matters?
I certainly wasn't thinking that they ought to be dancing swing or lindy hop or what ever, I was just thinking, "that looks
increadable!". Unfortunately I cannot remember the name of the dancer (who was from out of town) perhaps somebody from SF can chime
in?
Of course, I prefer tango music (thats what drew me in in the first place), but I've had some lovely tango dances to french waltez,
kletzmer (sp?) music, Eastern European music, jazz, blues, etc. in alternative venues.
Open minds and beautiful all,
Sean
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 11:08:25 -0800
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Is the music the dance?
John G. writes:
>The tango "dance" is performed to tango "music". When you
>dance the "dance to some other, rthymically different and emotionally
>different, music, it is NOT the tango. The steps/rhythm/etc usually
>have to be modified in order to make it work and it becomes a
>different dance.
Oh boy, I can't resist this. Could you please define what exactly
this real Tango music is? The more specific the better, down to
which orchestras & maybe even which songs? & a list of
approved real Tango steps/moves would be helpful too ;o)
.
At the Alternative Milonga last Sat, lots of skilled dancers were enjoying
dancing to a wide range of music, doing lots of interesting moves. Is it
"real" Tango? Its real to us, really fun too. Come join us, we'd love to have you
;o). It will be good for you soul & open up minds &hearts...
R in PDX
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:23:02 -0800
From: robin thomas <niborsamoht@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Is the music the dance?
i used to hate non tango music being played at the
milongas. it's not that it was impossible for me to
dance to it but that i just wanted to hear tango music
more, i love golden age tango music so much. i still
listen to it all day every day.
but one of my basic motivations for dancing tango is
to have a wonderful human being in my arms and many of
these wonderful human beings (usually women) wanted me
to put on non-tango when i'm dj'ing. so finally i came
to like some non tango because it brought happiness to
the people i cared about most in the milonga, my
followers.
i guess if they all loved doing sentadas and wanted me
to do sentadas all the time i would start doing
sentadas and even begin enjoying leading them.
i was at the alternative milonga in portland. i videod
much of it. there were amazing tango dancers there. if
you turn the sound off on the video it still looks
like tango. i don't know how to dance any other dance
except tango, milonga and vals cruzada, if another
form of music comes on thats all i know how to
translate the sounds into a dance.
i guess it must be tango by process of elimination
because i don't know how to do anything else.
the only problem with alternative or traditional tango
music is when it's played to the wrong audience. it
should be clear what your getting before you pay your
admission. if you want alternative stuff you go to a
milonga where they play it. if you don't you don't.
robin in new york
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:42:04 -0500
From: John Gleeson <john.gleeson@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Is the music the dance?
Rick answered:
> At the Alternative Milonga last Sat, lots of skilled dancers were enjoying
> dancing to a wide range of music, doing lots of interesting moves. Is it
> "real" Tango? Its real to us, really fun too. Come join us, we'd love to have you
> ;o). It will be good for you soul & open up minds &hearts...
Rick,
I didn't make any statement that it couldn't ever be fun. And I don't
question your right to dance to alternative music. But, I know
what I like and what I don't like so many thanks for the invitation
- but no thanks - I'll stick to what my soul tells me is Tango Music.
As I said - IMHO.
Cheers, John G.
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 12:56:40 -0800
From: Kos Zahariev <Kos.Zahariev@EC.GC.CA>
Subject: Re: Is the music the dance?
>
>John G. writes:
>>The tango "dance" is performed to tango "music". When you
>>dance the "dance to some other, rthymically different and emotionally
>>different, music, it is NOT the tango. The steps/rhythm/etc usually
>>have to be modified in order to make it work and it becomes a
>>different dance.
I mostly agree. I am reminded of largely-ignored until recently
philosophical essays regarding art, where it is said that [tango] music
provides the emotional core and the structure of the [tango] dance, and dance
is music's silent partner where music sets the terms.
In this frame of reference, then, dancing tango is inseparable from tango
music. The dance is the stylized expression of the tango music. It is like the
outer shell that is formed around and matches the inner core. Therefore it
follows that trying to pry these two from each other and assert that the dance
could exist as an entity independent from the tango music while still calling
the result "tango", is problematic.
>R in PDX writes:
>
>Oh boy, I can't resist this. Could you please define what exactly
>this real Tango music is? The more specific the better, down to
>which orchestras & maybe even which songs? & a list of
>approved real Tango steps/moves would be helpful too ;o)
A more effective, though sadly less rhethorical, approach is to try and look at
what is definitely NOT tango music - like cha-cha, or rhumba, or jazz, etc.
>.
>At the Alternative Milonga last Sat, lots of skilled dancers were enjoying
>dancing to a wide range of music, doing lots of interesting moves. Is it
>"real" Tango? Its real to us, really fun too. Come join us, we'd love to
>have you ;o). It will be good for you soul & open up minds &hearts...
>R in PDX
Dancing tango [steps] to non-tango music has nothing to do with opening one's
heart or mind or soul; it is simply a choice of emphasis. If you feel the
tango music as the defining component, as the core of your dance expression
and structure, then you would have problems dancing tango [steps] to music
that has a different core of feelings and implies a different
structure. Watching people do it would look unnatural or artificial to
you. Others who don't place that much emphasis on the music to define,
structure, and generally set the terms of their dance would have no problem
with it. It's fun, as you say.
Konstantin
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:34:24 -0800
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Is the music the dance?
No worries. & btw, I'm still waiting for an approved list of what, exactly, is the approved list of Real Tango music & dance steps... ;o) It will be a year this summer & still no answer ;}
.
I can easily imagine an evening of dancing, preponderance of music is post-golden age, real authentic Argentine Dance music. Color Tango, Los Reyes, the later DiSarli, DeAngelis, Troilo, Pugliese, El Arranque, & more. A couple breaks of Night Club 2 step music, some folks will Tango to it, for sure. That's a real tango, no?... I'll love the Golden Age music too, as soon as the sound reflects the original beauty of the live orchestras years ago...
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 16:01:05 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Is the music the dance?
Neither fish nor fowl.
Maybe an amphibian?
Maybe a platypus?
;-) ;-)
Johnathan suggested the clarifying exercise of watching the video of Ken
and Elaine with the music turned off.
After performing Johnathan's experiment, it seemed to me that Ken Elaine
were dancing tango steps that were neither clumsy nor forced, but I
couldn't hear a piece of tango music in my head that fit how the dancing
was being done.
With the music turned on back on I couldn't see Ken and Elaine dancing to
the basic rhythmic groove of the music. There were a few moments where it
seemed liked they climbed onboard, but the overall impression and a little
behind the music--forced and clumsy musically but not physically.
With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)
Stephen Brown
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 15:07:01 -0700
From: Rick McGarrey <rickmcg@FLASH.NET>
Subject: Is the music the dance?
Oh boy, my favorite subject! I think tango can be almost anything, but
ARGENTINE tango is something very specific. It is a specific way of feeling,
and of moving to certain music. This is music that was created and played by
certain orchestras, almost exclusively in the first half of the twentieth
century.
What is the feeling? It's what a porteno feels when they listen to that music.
The more you know about BsAs and the people who live there, the more you will
be able to come close to those feelings.
What is the movement? It is actually very specific, and it includes two
different and subtle things. I know the first when I see it, but it is very
hard to describe in words. Generally, it is a way of beginning a step that
involves surging forward without lunging or bouncing, while still stepping down
into the floor. Often the body surges through the half beat of the music, and
slows on the beat. It seems to come almost instinctively to the people who
spend many years in the clubs. It is very difficult to learn, and I have never
seen it taught outside BsAs.
The second part of the movement includes using the feet separately from the
motion of the partners' bodies. The feet are generally used to keep separate
and often complex cadences.
So there is one strong feeling, with two parts to the movement: the body
surging and moving to the melody and mood of the music as a result of the step
technique, while the feet keep varied cadences. Few people dance this way
outside of BsAs. Do it well and with feeling, and Argentines will spot it
instantly.
Why such a narrow definition? Because Argentine tango may be unique in that
the dance evolved within the culture to follow the music, while the music
itself evolved within the world of the milongas to follow the dance. Each
affected the other within this enclosed world. The creators of the music
absorbed the dancing, and the dancers absorbed the music. That's why these
very difficult ways of moving the feet and bodies to express the music are
inseparable from the music itself. Patterns or figures aren't important.
Move the right way, and you can pretty much step, rock, wiggle, or shake in any
direction you want to.
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 14:07:28 -0800
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Is the music the dance?
> but one of my basic motivations for dancing tango is
> to have a wonderful human being in my arms and
....
> many wanted me to put on non-tango when i'm dj'ing.
....
> so it brought happiness to the people i cared about
> most in the milonga, my followers.
....
> the only problem with alternative or traditional
> tango music is when it's played to the wrong
> audience.
....
> if you want alternative stuff you go to a
> milonga where they play it. if you don't you don't.
I like what Robin said.
The character of the music and it's dancibility also
depends on the character of your partner. I have one
partner that I love to dance to Jimi Hendrix, the
music touches something in him that is not expressed
when he dances to Rodriguez. I don't think I would
call what we do to Jimi Hendrix tango....but the
movements have their basis in the ones we use for
tango. There are other partners that I enjoy dancing
milonga, or dancing DiSarli or dancing Pugliese. I
think it makes a great deal of difference who you are
dancing with to what music and especially when it
comes to "alternative" tango. Which also means that
the broader one's grasp of the music the more
interesting their dances and the more interesting they
are to dance with. I find the tangos of the golden age
to be infinitely fulfilling in a complex way that is
not met by a lot of "alternative" music when it comes
to the elements of the music that can be expressed
through tango. What is the least fun for me is
dancing with someone who demonstrates a complete lack
of understanding the music with their dancing. And
conversely, the thing that makes a dance the most fun
for me is when my partner understands the music and
understands what I want out of the music and allows a
combined interpretation to ensue.
Regards,
Rose
Portland, OR
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 23:48:43 -0800
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Is the music the dance?
Ok, so I'm removing old black linoleum mastic this afternoon, with some fairly powerful solvents & it dawned on me, that we've been over this ground before. Jonathan's wise comments about lumper/splitters, particularily resonated: https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2003/msg01653.html
.
I'm assuming we all love dancing Tango, with wonderful partners & music that speaks to us. It kinda reminds me of the old saying, we're like 2 countries separated by a common language. I'll try to think of other analogies...
.
I had another comment about "understanding" tango music. I so passionately love dancing to the following tracks:
.
Color Tango: A Evaristo Carriego, Mala Junta, La Mariposa, Gallo Ciego, Illusion de me vida, Zum, La Luciernaga
DeAngelis: El Tango Club, Mi Dolor, Pavadita
Los Reyes: A Media Luz, El Choclo, La Cumparsita
DiSarli: A La Gran Muneca, bahia Blanca, Comme il faut
Canaro: Corazon de Oro, Vibraciones del Alma
El Arranque: A Mi Madre, La serenata De Ayer
.
Even before I knew who the songs were by & what there names were. They speak to me & resonate with my soul. I love interpreting the music through with my wonderful partners.
Do I understand these songs? I dunnooo...They speak to my soul & resonate profoundly. To me, the word understand doesn't really apply. I mean, do I understand why I loved kissing my ex-g/f? I dunnoo...I don't think about it, I feel it...
.
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 07:16:06 -0800
From: Larry Gmucs <gmucs@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Is the music the dance?
--- Kathryn Krueger <kathryn@SERV.NET> wrote:
>
> I think Tango probably blends a little more easily
> with a smoother style
> lindy hop. I'm not sure what makes it work vs. not
> working, but I know
> that it can look stunning -- I'm someone who
> primarily lindy hops, and I
> was initially drawn over to tango by a couple doing
> some amazing "swango"
> at a late night swing venue a year or two back. I
> thought it was the most
> amazing thing I'd ever seen.
My wife and I started (years ago) with swing, did lots
of ballroom, now we're almost entirely Tango. With
the right music, we combine milonga, swing, hustle,
and salsa in one dance. It probably upsets the tango
purists, but it's a heck of a lot of fun. We're not
trying to do a historical documentary about Tango.
Shouldn't dancing be fun?
Larry in Cleveland
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:46:25 -0600
From: Hector <maselli@GATE.NET>
Subject: Re: Is the music the dance?
On Feb 24, 2004, at 2:00 AM, Automatic digest processor wrote:
>From: Larry Gmucs <gmucs@YAHOO.COM>
>My wife and I started (years ago) with swing, did lots
>of ballroom, now we're almost entirely Tango. With
>the right music, we combine milonga, swing, hustle,
>and salsa in one dance. It probably upsets the tango
>purists, but it's a heck of a lot of fun. We're not
>trying to do a historical documentary about Tango.
>Shouldn't dancing be fun?
>Larry in Cleveland
You give yourself too much importance.
The best you can hope from the purists you envy so much is that they don't laugh too loud in your presence.
Hector
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 10:04:10 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Is the music the dance?
Mixing elements of movement across dances seems to be something that some
people with a ballroom background find interesting to do. Perhaps it is
because the ballroom variants lack enough of the elements of the original
dance on which they are based to be interesting. Maybe it is because the
approach to teaching ballroom dances is to create interchangeability.
There is nothing wrong with this. In fact, mixing elements across dances
suggests that the dancer may not like the confines of ballroom dancing as
it taught.
Importing movements from other dances into Argentine tango may or may not
work. It depends entirely upon whether the imported movements retain
enough of the sensibility of Argentine tango--respecting the relationship
to the music and the overall structure of movement. Personally, I find
that the vocabulary of Argentine tango is sufficiently rich in its
expression that I have little need to import foreign movements. I am a
purist by choice.
As a purist, I generally agree with Hector:
>The best you can hope from the purists you envy so much
>is that they don't laugh too loud in your presence.
With best regards,
Steve (de Tejas)
99 44/100% Pure ;-)
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:39:33 -0800
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Is the music the dance?
Billy Joel sings:
> I'd rather laugh with the sinners, than cry with the saints...
.
I'll take free spirits over purists any day. Much more fun, without
the paranoia & meanness.... ;o) True...
.
Bugs
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 11:40:13 -0800
From: Larry Gmucs <gmucs@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Is the music the dance?
We do not do our mixup steps to Tango music. Some
Salsa music works well. We put elements of milonga
into Salsa or Swing. Our Tango is strictly Tango.
--- Hector <maselli@GATE.NET> wrote:
> On Feb 24, 2004, at 2:00 AM, Automatic digest
> processor wrote:
>
> >From: Larry Gmucs <gmucs@YAHOO.COM>
>
> >My wife and I started (years ago) with swing, did
> lots
> >of ballroom, now we're almost entirely Tango. With
> >the right music, we combine milonga, swing, hustle,
> >and salsa in one dance. It probably upsets the
> tango
> >purists, but it's a heck of a lot of fun. We're
> not
> >trying to do a historical documentary about Tango.
> >Shouldn't dancing be fun?
>
> >Larry in Cleveland
>
> You give yourself too much importance.
> The best you can hope from the purists you envy so
> much is that they don't laugh too loud in your
> presence.
>
> Hector
>
>
> should be sent to
> send the
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:18:04 -0800
From: Kathryn Krueger <kathryn@SERV.NET>
Subject: Re: Is the music the dance?
Do you ever wonder what it was like back in the day when Tango was first
born? There wasn't a set number of steps that people did. There wasn't a
set of rules constraining this dance that people did. There was just the
music, and people inspired by the music, moving in a way that the music
inspired them to move. And out of that music and out of that inspiration
came the tango that we now know.
I don't think that tango movement necessarily fits to all music, or that all
movement fits to tango music, but I think that it is limiting to consider
oneself a "purist" and to limit themself to the inspiration of a set number
of people a number of years ago. I believe that one can still be inspired
in new ways to the same music, in ways that still work with that music.
Kathryn
Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2004 13:28:25 -0800
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Is the music the dance?
Tango to "inappropriate music"? (Let me take a first stab at this old tango-L
staple, and apologies if I repeat others too much. I had to rush the
reading.)
As a principle of social co-existence, toleration beats the best doctrine. I
accept the possible fate of having to vote with my feet. A (very) few times
it came to voting that way clear out the front door.
Just my taste ... With exceptions (!) I find the dancing of a tango idiom to
other music something from mildly comic to mildly pathetic, with lame in the
lead (with exceptions, remember); but this is the sort of thing that there is
no accounting for ... a personal taste. The law should not get into the
ballroom of consenting adults.
If a new current develops of people who fancy doing salsa patterns to vintage
rock'n-roll music, or madcow "ballroom" pasodoble to merengue music ... It is
perfectly possible. I might even try one of these myself. Actually I tried
once adding milonga stuff to merengue (could be worse).
In the case of tango I do not even care to appeal to the kinds of aesthetic
criteria that I would not hesitate to apply to dancing that fits the time
line of tango, the dance, done to dance music of the classical tango genre,
recorded mainly from c.1920 to c.1955, but also here and there to this day.
Who wants to be the stick-in-the-mud who missed the birth of a new synthesis
while going around criticising the gestation? I did something vaguely like
that back c.1964, and what did it get me? A nearly dance free existence for a
generation. (No regrets, basically voting with my feet.)
Having settled for absolute subjectivity ... See, I am lazy, I need the music
to move ME. The 2000 or so best classical tango interpretations, the A-grade
stuff, move me to dance tango, as do many of the modern "in-genre" ones. This
includes, by the way, music that according to aboriginal religious beliefs is
"forbidden": e.g., countless tangos sung by Gardel, and "big show" orchestra
numbers created post 1983.
Having been a lover of "high brow" music since childhood---you know, string
quartets and oratorios and, all that freak stuff---I hardly need to wonder
how different people are moved by different music. Yet ... Let me offer
myself as a (mere) example. I like tango, much more so as an integrated whole
of music and dance, and more; but I am not musically ... omnivoracious. It is
not just that I like Debussy more than Edith Piaff: I love Debussy's music,
and much of what Piaff sang too; but, more often than not, I actively dislike
mass consumption music. I love Pergolesi's "La serva padrona"; I enjoy a lot
of current Brazilian and Hispanic popular music; I do not care for 39+ of the
USA top-40; I dislike a lot of the hard-core salsa (mostly 1980-early
1990"s); and I DetesT to death hard rock and rap, to name two.
Tastes vaguely along these lines are by no means exceptional in the tango
world that I know, or know of. I got a humourous illustration of this, once,
when I was asked to advertise an introductory hip-hop dance class in an
outdoors milonga. Apparently I was the only person in the sizable crowd who
would not laugh out loud at the thought of checking out the hip-hop.
Basically, one can assume (by definition) that real tangueros and tangueras
like "standard" tango dance music; anything else is assumed at a risk. A DJ
who becomes too "adventurous" is liable, not only not to satisfy, but to
AlienatE his principal constituency, which is the people focused on the total
tango experience, on tango as a DifferenT experience. This is very much an
all-ages crowd, and the half-hearted are, I believe, very much in the
minority.
Tangueros will miss that "moving" factor, elusive in concept but abundant,
very real and alive, in the best repertoire. They will not be in heaven. Not
only that, they will not even want to be out there while objectionable ...
music plays on, and hurts their ears. OK, OK, DJ"s, if my stats are wrong, go
ahead, play rap. You are entitled.
Cheers,
Is music the dance? NOOOO. The music goes with the dance. Always? In a sense
yes, but qualifications are needed.
