988 let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 15:31:52 -0800
From: robin thomas <niborsamoht@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing
it's really a pity that this name stuck (milonguero
style). if it was only something like yellow tango or
tango version 2.02 it would be so much better. on the
other hand we already have the confusing situation of
milonga being a dance, as well as a place to dance so
things are confusing to begin with.
as far as i know dancing milonguero style has nothing
to do with being a milonguero. many milongueros dance
other styles and anyone can learn to dance milonguero
style whether they are from almagro or arkansas.
milonguero style is simply a marketing term to
describe a style of dancing which comes mostly from
tete (an older dancer in buenos aires). that doesn't
mean it's bad or less authentic (whatever value you
place in that). who cares?
tete dances sternum to sternum and creates space for
his feet by having his and his partners weight far
forward on the balls of their feet. that enabled him
to do consecutive turns to the left and right in
place. he never needed to open up or change the
embrace at all.
milonguero style is nothing to do with having your
partner hanging on you. that's as true as saying nuevo
tango means you're un-musical and don't care about the
line of dance.
brigitte winkler teaches how to do colgadas, changes
of direction and baridas using this embrace. there
really don't seem to be many limitations on what kind
of steps you can do except for the dancers skill and
creativity.
what the old argentine guys (who dance this style) do
often looks very simple. it's actually very difficult.
cacho dante and susana miller teach material in their
advanced classes which looks very simple (but
beautiful) but is extremely difficult.
to say that to dance milonguero style the steps have
to be simplified is just not true, they're modified.
anyone who tries it will find that it is harder to
turn close than open.
it also has nothing to do with dancing rhythmic ly or
lyrically. there are dancers of this style like cacho
who dance modern pugliese intensely and then there are
others who only like d'arienzo. i like to dance this
way to pink floyd and queen.
i do think it's easier to make less of a nuisance of
yourself on the dance floor because you potentially
simply take up less space. it might also be easier to
lead rhythmic variations because there is so much
information transmitted with so much body contact.
from before i started dancing three years ago there
seems to be this big debate about whether or not
milonguero style is "real" or not. who gives a damn?
it's simply another way of dancing tango it can be
easy or hard beautiful or ugly and a lot of people
like to dance this way (a lot, sometimes or not at
all).in my experience some really good salon or nuevo
followers are really awful to dance milonguero with
because they have no idea that their posture and
embrace should be a little different. i'm sure some
followers who only learned milonguero would probably
not feel good to someone who danced exclusively
another style.
finally my personal belief is that leaders should
learn one style and stick to it and do it well.
followers should do the opposite and learn as many
different styles as they can. i like to take classes
in all different styles but so far i always am simply
looking for a way to incorporate what they teach into
the way i already dance. when i follow i try to adapt
to whatever style the leader dances.
robin thomas
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:11:09 -0700
From: Brian Dunn <Brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing
robin wrote:
"it's really a pity that this name stuck (milonguero style). if it was only
something like yellow tango or
tango version 2.02 it would be so much better."
I know many Argentines are ticked about this name, and the baggage it's
accumulated.
robin wrote further:
"brigitte winkler teaches how to do colgadas, changes of direction and
baridas using this embrace."
I remember working with Brigitta about a year or so ago...in describing
recent milonga work of Eduardo Cappussi that had caught her fancy, Brigitta
once used the term "full-body milonga." Maybe a replacement term could be
"full-body tango."
Your summary of sternum-to-sternum, feet-inched-back sounds like a decent
description of the Tete/Miller style, and better than "close-embrace" which
can have a variety of interpretations. I've heard recently, for example,
that Gustavo Naveira dances most of his "Nuevo Tango" material in what many
would call a close-embrace, since there is no separation between the
partners. Misunderstandings can arise because many of his followers do have
separation between partners because they haven't mastered his technique for
that vocabulary.
Abrazos,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
1(303)938-0716
https://www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 16:28:41 -0800
From: NANCY <ningle_2000@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing
--- robin thomas <niborsamoht@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> it's really a pity that this name stuck (milonguero
> style). if it was only something like yellow tango
> or
> tango version 2.02 it would be so much better. on
>
Why not 'pegajoso' which has all sorts of charming
meanings?
La rubia
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 17:54:37 -0700
From: Brian Dunn <Brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing
>--- robin thomas <niborsamoht@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>> it's really a pity that this name stuck (milonguero
>> style). if it was only something like yellow tango
>> or
>> tango version 2.02 it would be so much better. on
>>
>>>
Why not 'pegajoso' which has all sorts of charming
meanings?
La rubia
<<<
Rubia, rubia, you tease you...OK, I'll bite (!): how about a couple of
"charming" examples, for the uninitiated among us!? (Preferably publicly,
but privately, if need be - I AM curious about these sorts of things).
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
1(303)938-0716
https://www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 19:31:17 -0800
From: Rick FromPdx <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing
I read somewhere on the web, that this old style was also called 'apilado'?
That is what I came away with, although if may not be accurate. I just read
following webpage & it didn't really nail it down :o)
https://www.kidojo.it/tango/newstango_en.html
I dunnoo, if I'm dancing really close in the proverbial embrace with one arm
out, I call that close-embrace. A ballroom-style hold, I call open embrace &
dance one or the other & a hybrid of the 2 throughout an evening...
Rick
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:24:56 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing (and what is what anyway?)
I read the interview with Yvonne Meissner on the kidojo-link. So, if I get
this right, tango milonguero is really just another name for and/or a
subcategory of tango salon, which brings us back to the old point of
controversy that tango milonguero is often called tango salon in Europe, and
what is considered to be tango salon in the United States, is really a form
of tango fantasia. Is that correct ? (If it is, it's what I have been
suspecting all along)
What do you say, Patricia ? Is that how one could summarise your interview ?
By the way, in the tango encyclopedia (H. Salgan) I read, I do not recall
seeing the name "tango liso", but instead they kept mentioning the term
"tango para las hermanas" (tango for the sisters) which is a style "sin
cortes y quebradas", meaning devoid of all the sexual connotations,
nonflirtatious and very simple, you don't have to hang around the milongas
frequently to master it, and therefore good enough for the well guarded
little sisters of the lounge lizards...
An afterthought: to contribute to the confusion, maybe we could distinguish
between tango milonguero and tango milonguero apilado as well, as some
people insist that tango milonguero is danced in a completely upright
position with no sharing of the axis ?
Astrid
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 23:18:09 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing
Astrid wrote:
>[W]hat is considered to be tango salon in the United States, is really
>a form of tango fantasia. Is that correct ? (If it is, it's what I have
>been suspecting all along)
Astrid is mostly correct. Many people use the term "salon tango" in the
United States to refer the style of Todaro, which is a foundation for the
Fantasia and TangoDanza styles.
Two groups of people are responsible for the use of the term "salon" in
this manner in the United States. One group are the instructors who teach
the style of Todaro and call it "salon." The other group is those who
dance what is called "milonguero" in the United States and equate salon
tango with fantasia.
In fact, the style of Todaro is not really fantasia. Nor does the style
of Todaro follow the norms of what should be considered tango de salon, a
terminology which is intended to refer to the styles of tango danced
socially in salons by milongueros. I think it would be better to use the
"modern salon" to refer to the style of Todaro.
Susana Miller has been credited to applying the term "milonguero" to the
style of Tete/Miller/Dante and for promoting its use in the United States.
Some prefer to the use the term more broadly to refer to all the styles
danced by milongueros.
As for renaming what is called "milonguero" in the United States, Eduardo
Arquimbau and some others call it "club," referring to its origins in the
clubs de barrios.
With best wishes for 2003,
Steve
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 15:29:02 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing (and what is what anyway?)
With the help of Stephen Brown I have come to the following conclusion (an
educated guess ?), which may be used as a glossary for beginners, and to
promote the sale of Aspirin:
What we have here is:
tango salon (Europe) alias tango milonguero (US) alias tango fantasia (US)
To clarify this, remember:
Tango fantasia alias tango salon (Todaro style instructors)
tango salon alias tango fantasia (US tango milonguero dancers)
tango fantasia alias the tango of Todaro, which is not really tango
fantasia, alias modern salon (Stephen)
tango milonguero alias tango apilado alias close embrace alias tango
milonguero but not apilado alias Club Style* tango alias the tango danced by
milongueros** (which does not infer that every tango milonguero dancer is a
"milonguero," which must be further divided into veros milongueros and
ordinary milongueros)
Club style alias close embrace, though not necessarily*
*quote Yvonne Meissner:
"Tango Confiteria and Club Style are also forms of Tango Salon which are
danced socially in the milongas, either with a close embrace or with a
certain distance between the leader and follower."
**Susana Miller has been credited to applying the term "milonguero" to the
style of Tete/Miller/Dante and for promoting its use in the United States.
Some prefer to the use the term more broadly to refer to all the styles
danced by milongueros.
Astrid
P.S.
When people get tired of analysing this, maybe we could start collecting all
the different names used by Argentine instructors for the same move ?
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 01:43:28 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing (and what is what anyway?)
>I read the interview with Yvonne Meissner on the kidojo-link. So, if I get
>this right, tango milonguero is really just another name for and/or a
>subcategory of tango salon, which brings us back to the old point of
>controversy that tango milonguero is often called tango salon in Europe, and
>what is considered to be tango salon in the United States, is really a form
>of tango fantasia. Is that correct ? (If it is, it's what I have been
>suspecting all along)
Astrid, it isn't as confusing as it seems, it's just that one thing
is terminology, and the other is what people mean.
I think there is even more confusion about what SALON TANGO means.
I believe "Tango de Salon" in Argentina means a walking, social style
tango, without ganchos or boleos, elegantly danced, with good
floor-craft. Given our cultural sensibilities, N. Americans would
consider this to be very close-embrace, but it is not "apilado" close.
The way I understand it, most Europeans use Salon pretty much in that
sense, i.e. social style dancing which may be open or close, but
perhaps more often fairly close. This would be separate from
Performance or Fantasy tango. In this context, Yvonne Meissner's
comment calling milonguero style a subcategory of salon makes sense.
In the US, there is a pretty strong agreement to use the term salon
for the walking, open-embrace, tango built on pivoting ochos, 8CB and
molinete. (The "Todaro" style as Stephen described).
But, a huge majority of the traveling teachers have their primary
credentials as Fantasy or Show dancers. SOME of these teachers
distinguish between fantasy and social salon, but in general N
Americans study a lot of fantasy material such as boleos & ganchos,
which they bring into their Salon dancing, and most dance Salon VERY
open. There is also a strong tendency to zig-zag about the middle of
the floor, rather than form lanes.
Tango in the US is relatively immature; but, more and more, the
experienced salon dancers are distinguishing between fantasy and
social vocabulary, they are following the line of dance, and are
using a closer embrace, much as in Europe or Argentina.
Milonguero Style (which term may have come into general use via
Susana Miller) is generally agreed upon (outside Argentina) to mean
the rhythmic (staccato), very-close embrace style, with non-twisting
ochos and ocho cortado, as taught by Susana Miller, Cacho Dante,
Tete, and a few others. Eduardo Arquimbau calls virtually the same
thing "club-style", others might call it "confiteria", but the term
milonguero seems to have the widest recognition.
I guess Robin's complaint is that if Milonguero means strictly
"rhythmic, close-embrace, non-pivoting ochos", then it is too narrow
of a term. Our difficulty is that we can't follow the European or
Argentine terminology because Salon is already appropriated in the US
to mean something else.
Maybe we should simply use "Close-embrace Tango", and if your style
is more rhythmic, then add that as a descriptor...
One very interesting thing is how rare it is to find traveling tango
teachers whose credentials are primarily as SOCIAL style dancers. Of
these you have an even smaller minority of teachers representing the
Milonguero style.
The reason this is so interesting is that at least 3/4 of the dancers
in Argentina are social dancers, and a high percentage of these
social dancers would be classified as Milonguero Style (by the above
categories). So we have a situation where most traveling teachers of
Argentine Tango are NOT credentialed in the style(s) most common in
Argentina.
Even within the US, the teachers who most strongly promote this
"Rhythmic Close-embrace" can be counted on two hands. Among them:
- Robert Hauk in Portland
- Christopher Nassoupoulus and Caroline Peattie in San Francisco
- Barbara Durr in Atlanta
- Robin Thomas in New York
- Chan & Eugenia in Washington, DC.
- Hsue-Tze Lee of Boston
- (and of course, I'm primarily associated with this style here in Denver).
Not to imply that these teachers exclusively use this style; (also,
I've undoubtedly left out some US teachers who would consider
themselves defined in this manner.).
Would someone be so kind as to list some US teachers who have a very
close social style, but would NOT consider themselves within the
Milonguero style, or "Rhythmic Close-embrace"?
>An afterthought: to contribute to the confusion, maybe we could distinguish
>between tango milonguero and tango milonguero apilado as well, as some
>people insist that tango milonguero is danced in a completely upright
>position with no sharing of the axis ?
The teachers I listed above (Argentine and US) who are most closely
identified with the Milonguero style do NOT teach a leaning version.
Maybe someone could provide us with a list of those who tell the
women to lean on the man so we can be forewarned. People are free to
choose their style, but I personally hate it when a woman leans or
hangs on me...it kills my back.
--
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-388-2560
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:19:03 +0100
From: "kiaikido kidojo.it" <kiaikido@KIDOJO.IT>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing (and what is what anyway?)
> Maybe someone could provide us with a list of those who tell the
> women to lean on the man so we can be forewarned. People are free to
> choose their style, but I personally hate it when a woman leans or
> hangs on me...it kills my back.<<
It is a difference between hanging on somebody or leaning on someone:
1) hanging...: this is pure Fitness-style and has nothing to do with dancing
2) leaning... : if the back of the male dancer hurts, this means that he did
not "counterlean" on his partner (please excuse my bad english-expressions),
I will try to explain it better: If somebody leans on You and you choose to
have a comon axis, you have to lean towards the person, creating an reversed
"V" . If the axis is in the middle of the dancers there will be no wheight
on the dancer's back.... so please lean on the girls..!
another thing of course is that the lumbar part of the back should be more
or less straight (because of the reversed hips, which makes also the legs
straight and dancing more nicely). If the back is unnaturally curved or to
much curved, than the partner's pressure with stick there and make all hurt
terribly.
the best stragedy is: lean on the partner, but think yourself or your energy
going up, this prermits to lean on someone without weight (seems strange but
it works, maybe somebody can explain it better in english??)
patricia muller/Italy
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 08:52:32 -0600
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing (and what is what anyway?)
> what is considered to be tango salon in the United States, is
> really a form
> of tango fantasia. Is that correct ? (If it is, it's what I have been
> suspecting all along)
So what we REALLY need is a name for this strange (and uncomfortable) style
of tango!
Can we even call it tango?
Lois from Mpls
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:35:36 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing (and what is what anyway?)
For the most part, I agree with what Tom Stermitz wrote, particularly his
comment
>I think there is even more confusion about what SALON TANGO means.
Where I may differ is in finding it useful to recognize the differences
between the smooth and staccato versions of Tango de Salon, the style of
Todaro, and Fantasia.
As Tom wrote: Tango de Salon refers to a walking social style without
boleos and ganchos. It can be danced in an open or close embrace, but it
is usually danced in what would be considered a close embrace in the
United States.
As Yvonne Meissner has written, what is called "Club" or "Milonguero" in
the United States might be considered a subcategory of Tango de Salon. As
Tom wrote, this style is danced with a staccato rhythm. One difficulty
with including Club/Milonguero as a subcategory of Tango de Salon is that
the style originated in the Clubs de Barrios rather than the Salons where
it is danced today.
What has been left without a name in the United States is the smoother
style of Tango de Salon that is danced without a staccato rhythm. I have
simply called it "Salon" recognizing its development from the simpler
Tango Liso in the Salons. Robert Hauk calls it "Old Salon." Nonetheless,
I recognize that neither of us has really convinced others to use our
terminology.
This smoother style of Tango de Salon was once the dominant style in San
Francisco, but has given way to a multiplicity of styles.
Susan and I teach and promote the smoother Tango de Salon. In addition to
being a rewarding style to dance, it is a very good basis for learning any
style of Argentine tango.
The smoother Tango de Salon is also the style that we primarily dance at
milongas, though we do add occasional elements of milonguero, the style of
Todaro and nuevo that respect the line of dance.
Tom and I are agreement that the style of Todaro consists of "walking, open-embrace, tango built on pivoting ochos, 8CB and molinete." From previous discussions, we are also in agreement that this style is
of limited usefulness for dancing socially in crowded milongas because it
teachers have emphasized the use of complex, memorized figures based on
the 8CB.
Unfortunately, the term "Salon" has been applied to the style of Todaro in
the United States. Although Todaro and others developed this style from
their knowledge of the smoother Tango de Salon and Orillero, it is not
really a style that originated in the Salons. Hence, calling it "Salon"
does not really seem appropriate. In recognition that the style of Todaro
has its primary roots in Tango de Salon and that many of its current
instructors intend the style to be danced socially, I have used the term
"Modern Salon."
Where I seem to differ from Tom is that I distinguish between the style of
Todaro (Modern Salon) and Fantasia. The vocabulary of Modern Salon is
drawn almost exclusively from the elements of social dance and without
exaggeration. Modern Salon is the basis for Fantasia, but Fantasia
exaggerates many elements of the social dance and includes elements of
ballet, modern dance and show dancing that do not have historical
antecedents in Argentine tango itself.
I would further add that many of the stage dancers who travel and teach
what I am calling Modern Salon do distinguish between what they are
teaching and what they do on the stage. Whether one would consider what
they are teaching as being appropriate for social dancing is another
issue.
With best wishes to everyone for a great 2003,
Steve
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 10:03:26 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing (and what is what anyway?)
I agree with Robin (and almost everyone in the
world) that "milonguero" is a poor term for the
Tete/Miller/Dante style of dancing.
What on earth is wrong with the term "apilado"
(which translates to "piled up, stacked, heaped"
to describe the mutual leaning at the sternum
to create a shared axis). When Cacho Dante
teaches, he often says let's start and practice
with the step open, and then we can progress to
doing it apilado. So it would seem he himself
uses the term to describe how he dances.
"Close embrace" is a very poor choice. Many
teachers teach close embrace tango without being
apilado in the Cacho Dante style, Agustina Videla
and Claudio Asprea being one fine example.
I also don't like the term "club tango" to
describe apilado. First of all, from what I've
seen, Gloria and Eduardo do not routinely dance
apilado like Cacho Dante and Susanna Miller.
Club style is simply a close embrace style
(not necessarily apilado) done rhythmically,
typically to Golden Age tango music. What makes
club-style tango club style is not sharing an
axis at the sternum, but rather a strict adherence
to the rhythm of the music as opposed to using
pauses. A club-style dancer steps on every single
beat or half beat while dancing to a typical
D'Arienzo. Milena and Ezequiel, on the other
hand, do not do club style; they still insert
seductive pauses, lapices, etc., even when
they're dancing to a rhythmic D'Arienzo.
We have a perfectly good and very specific
term in "apilado" to describe the Tete/Miller/Dante
style. Why not use it?
Huck
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 09:42:38 -0800
From: Barbara Garvey <barbara@TANGOBAR-PRODUCTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing (and what is what anyway?)
Thank you Tom and Steve,
I think these two posts are by far the most accurate -- Steve is certainly
right about San Francisco. For sure there is a definable difference between
salon and salon/Todaro and Fantasia. I would love it if the few people in
the Bay Area who do Fantasia on the dance floor would get this distinction
:-)
I also agree that it would be far more accurate to replace 'milonguero
style' with 'apilado' or 'close embrace': Actually 'pegajoso' is my
favorite. HarperCollins Spanish Dictionary (hardback; the best, by the way!
It includes lots of slang, including some lunfardo, and distinquishes
between usages in different countries): "sticky, adhesive; viscous". In San
Francisco most (?? we don't go to all the milongas) of the more experienced
salon and/or 'salon/Todaro' dancers dance very close except for turns and
certain figures where it is necessary to separate a little.
The other point I would like to make is that most experienced dancers adjust
intuitively to the music, dancing very smoothly to DiSarli, more staccatto
to Biagi/D'Arienzo, sometimes blending within one song. This should come
naturally, doesn't require the learning of entire new styles. I remember the
first lessons we had with Eduardo and Gloria in their club style (which was
not close embrace in those days) -- except for some details it turned out to
be more or less what Al and I had already been doing to certain music,
although our (all Argentine) maestros had without exception been in the
salon or Todaro line of work. The beauty of tango is that each couple
invents each dance, mixing styles and footwork to interpret the music, so
that frequently different 'styles' become part of the available vocabulary.
Abrazos to all,
Barbara
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:26:37 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing (and what is what anyway?)
> > Maybe someone could provide us with a list of those who tell the
>> women to lean on the man so we can be forewarned. People are free to
>> choose their style, but I personally hate it when a woman leans or
>> hangs on me...it kills my back.<<
>
>It is a difference between hanging on somebody or leaning on someone:
>1) hanging...: this is pure Fitness-style and has nothing to do with dancing
>2) leaning... : if the back of the male dancer hurts, this means that he did
>not "counterlean" on his partner (please excuse my bad english-expressions),
>I will try to explain it better: If somebody leans on You and you choose to
>have a comon axis, you have to lean towards the person, creating an reversed
>"V" . If the axis is in the middle of the dancers there will be no wheight
>on the dancer's back.... so please lean on the girls..!
This is a great discussion...particularly for Semioticians and other
literary theorists.
Words have meanings!
The problem is how the audience interprets your words, not what you
intended to say! I think the true master in this realm is Eric
Jorissen. He is EVER so careful with words, and uses them like a
brain surgeon to transmit meaning to a class.
The word "milonguero style" isn't so bad...as opposed to apilado,
club-style, etc,. At least everybody knows what it means,except
perhaps newcomers, in which case the very descriptive phrase
"Rhythmic, Close-embrace Tango", is quite suitable.
But, I have to take issue with Patricia's post, although she clearly
states that technique and style should be developed that protect the
health of you back.
As a shorter guy, I'm quite sensitized to being leaned on!
I am DEFINATELY (defiantly?) in the close-embrace school of"support
your own weight, but share an axis". I know that this is what Susana
Miller teaches, likewise Brigitta Winkler and Yvonne Meissner. If it
is an inverted "V", it is a very shallow angle.
In terms of physics one might ask whether sharing an axis necessarily
means "leaning". I prefer words like merging or embracing, or
possibly "hinge at the ankles with a slight tilt". But the word LEAN
is dangerous. It implies hanging, or "giving your weight to" your
partner.
Yes, this shared axis is formed by having both partners "tilt"
forward equally until they meet. If your toes are 3 inches (5 cm)
apart, then this is not much of a lean, and the pressure (another
word to avoid!) is light. We are free to "decorate" this shared axis
with greater or lesser "density" (not a bad word).
Then there is that danged Calesita with the lady at 45 degrees! I
call it the "Marines raising the flag on Iwo Jima move".
--
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-388-2560
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 11:46:42 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing (and what is what anyway?)
Tom Stermitz writes:
> The word "milonguero style" isn't so bad...as opposed to apilado,
> club-style, etc,. At least everybody knows what it means,except
> perhaps newcomers,
Yes, but many people who consider themselves to be
milongueros resent having the term describe a way in
which they do not dance. A legitimate gripe, if you ask
me, especially if you are Argentine and have been dancing
tango forever. Everyone knows what certain ethnic slurs
mean too, but that doesn't mean we should use them. A bit
of an extreme example, to be sure, but still valid. Also,
how would you like it if someone decided to call something
you didn't do "Denver-style tango?"
Is the term "apilado" really all that obscure?
At least it is descriptive and specific in nature. Once
you learn the term, there is no doubt at all exactly what
it means, as opposed to "milonguero" or "close-embrace."
> in which case the very descriptive phrase
> "Rhythmic, Close-embrace Tango", is quite suitable.
But not all close-embrace tango is apilado. "Close"
is not defined as "leaning on each other at the sternum"
in either Spanish or English. And "open" is not defined
as "anything not leaning on each other at the sternum."
There's a whole spectrum between Dante/Miller and, say,
some of the young, very-open California dancers, for one
example.
According to your terminology, unless you are
apilado you are not close embrace, or am I reading you
wrong?
Huck
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:14:38 -0700
From: Dave Schmitz <dschmitz@MAGELLAN.TEQ.STORTEK.COM>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing (and what is what anyway?)
Huck wrote:
> Also,
> how would you like it if someone decided to call something
> you didn't do "Denver-style tango?"
Since there is no "Denver-style tango",
I would consider said person to be ignorant
or misinformed, and leave it at that,
and then excuse myself to invite a lady to dance,
exploring whatever style she's comfortable with.
I would probably also think, "yeah, sure, that style
is sorta like one I've seen in Denver, so if you want
to call it that, well, okay, but you might want to
number it, like 'Denver-style 15E'."
Many in Denver do dance close, but plenty of others
dance open, even stagey, certainly nuevo (whatever
that means).
As to terminology, leave that catfight to the academicians
and just enjoy the embrace.
Deejay Dave
Denver, Colorado
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:35:53 -0600
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing (and what is what anyway?)
Greetings friends,
We can usually count on Tom for interesting grist.
> Maybe we should simply use "Close-embrace Tango", and if your style
> is more rhythmic, then add that as a descriptor...
I think that a different name will have no effect on Robin's gripe.
In their lives, some people have a need to conform while others have
a need to *not* conform. In their tango (to some extent) and surely in
their language concerning their tango, they will use the same vocabulary
with different meaning! ...coin a new term and soon we'll be back to
square one... The question, "What dance is the same and what is
different?" will persist.
Tom goes on to make two points:
1.
> One very interesting thing is how rare it is to find traveling tango
> teachers whose credentials are primarily as SOCIAL style dancers. Of
> these you have an even smaller minority of teachers representing the
> Milonguero style.
2.
> The reason this is so interesting is that at least 3/4 of the dancers
> in Argentina are social dancers, and a high percentage of these
> social dancers would be classified as Milonguero Style (by the above
> categories). So we have a situation where most traveling teachers of
> Argentine Tango are NOT credentialed in the style(s) most common in
> Argentina.
I can't get very worked up over what seem like small differences
among styles even if they are clearly recognizable. IMHO, the important
differences are among fundamental individual techniques, not exactly how
close or far a partner is from us.
Concerning point 1:
The 'credentials' that sell workshop attendance are of two kinds (IMHO):
A) recognition based on the perception that average dancers in Argentina
consider a person to have exceptional talent. This means that they
have 'shown' that they are (or can be) different from the average
Joe(sephine) in the milonga.
B) recognition based on brute volume of experience in the milongas
Neither credential is reliable.
This takes us right back to the 'same or different' issue and people's
expectations for the teachers they support. I think the chemistry of
becoming a tango dancer, anywhere in the world, depends as much on the
students' personalities as it does the particular style taught by the
teachers who happen to be available to them. Maybe that's wrong and I'm
naive; people wear ill-fitting fashions all the time. Maybe they'd do
an uncomfortable dance just to be different. But I think that getting
hooked on tango requires a deeper and more personal emotional resonance.
If a style of dance and the people who do it don't 'click' with you,
you vote with your feet and quit.
Concerning point 2:
I agree with Tom that the 'personna' that sells many traveling teachers
is 'type A' (above) and not 'type B'. But let's not bash 'show dancers'.
Being a show dancer takes lots of commitment. Many dancers who have
danced
in shows as a means of support are a) very perceptive students of
movement,
b) very gifted dancers with significant discipline in classical, jazz,
or
modern dance, and c) entertainers. [Any disdain for choreographed
figures in social dancing should not undermine our appreciation of great
choreography for the stage. Even with talent, good choreography takes a
ton of work to develop.]
Are show dancers bad in the milongas? In BA just like anywhere else,
there can be PLENTY of poor dancers mucking up the floor! So being like
3/4 of the population is not such a high aspiration. Those who are quite
good don't want to be cattle, circling in a corral. [eg. Nobody takes more
liberties with ronda etiquette than Tete'!] But for many Argentines who
like (or depend financially on) recognition on the pista, there is
definitely an *art of understatement*. That 'understatement' looks quite
alot like 'elegance'. ...and it is not a matter of 'style'...
Best regards (whether you prefer to be the same or different),
Frank in Minneapolis
--
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D.
University of Minnesota
612-625-6441
Department of Neuroscience
6-145 Jackson Hall
321 Church Street SE
Minneapolis, MN 55455
Department of Veterinary Pathobiology
205 Veterinary Science
1971 Commonwealth Ave.
St. Paul, MN 55108
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 12:36:30 -0500
From: Jason Laughlin <jason@TANGOPHILIA.COM>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing (and what is what anyway?)
How about trying to see the forest for the trees, people.
You can't come to an agreement about what to call artificial grouping
categories of dancing, but everyone seems to be able to identify the
preferred dancing styles of every individual you name. Instead of spinning
your wheels, why not identify the styles with the
proponents. Tete/Miller/Dante style is henceforth "Tete/Miller/Dante
style". Then you not only capture the groupings but the origins and
heritage of each style. Why not differentiate Tete from Dante by just
calling them "Tete and Dante" instead of "Milonguero style, subtype a3" and
inventing an entirely redundant and self-referential nomenclature? If
you'd like, publish a matrix of lineage and steps so you can show everyone
that Tete differs from Todaro based on an execution of steps x, y, and z
and perhaps Dante will choose to dance DFG while Miller might do FGH, but
neither will ever do ABC unless it's after midnight.
Every possible word that you could come up with to describe a dancing style
is inherently loaded with baggage and twisted metaphor. When you describe
something as "close-embrace" or "apilado" you reduce the entire range of
options that a dancer expresses to a quick marketing catch phrase and
provide fodder for people that like to sit around and debate whether or not
a step, dancer or style is truly "close-embrace" or "apilado". From all
the progress that has been made in this endeavor, may I suggest starting a
thread to debate how many famous dead tango dancers can dance salon on the
head of a pin?
Jason
At 10:03 AM 2/4/2003 -0700, you wrote:
> I agree with Robin (and almost everyone in the
>world) that "milonguero" is a poor term for the
>Tete/Miller/Dante style of dancing.
>
> What on earth is wrong with the term "apilado"
>(which translates to "piled up, stacked, heaped"
>to describe the mutual leaning at the sternum
>to create a shared axis). When Cacho Dante
>teaches, he often says let's start and practice
>with the step open, and then we can progress to
>doing it apilado. So it would seem he himself
>uses the term to describe how he dances.
>
> "Close embrace" is a very poor choice. Many
>teachers teach close embrace tango without being
>apilado in the Cacho Dante style, Agustina Videla
>and Claudio Asprea being one fine example.
>
> I also don't like the term "club tango" to
>describe apilado. First of all, from what I've
>seen, Gloria and Eduardo do not routinely dance
>apilado like Cacho Dante and Susanna Miller.
>
> Club style is simply a close embrace style
>(not necessarily apilado) done rhythmically,
>typically to Golden Age tango music. What makes
>club-style tango club style is not sharing an
>axis at the sternum, but rather a strict adherence
>to the rhythm of the music as opposed to using
>pauses. A club-style dancer steps on every single
>beat or half beat while dancing to a typical
>D'Arienzo. Milena and Ezequiel, on the other
>hand, do not do club style; they still insert
>seductive pauses, lapices, etc., even when
>they're dancing to a rhythmic D'Arienzo.
>
> We have a perfectly good and very specific
>term in "apilado" to describe the Tete/Miller/Dante
>style. Why not use it?
>
>Huck
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:55:57 -0700
From: Rick McGarrey <rickmcg@FLASH.NET>
Subject: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing (and what is what anyway?)
Sometimes a phrase mentioned on the list seems to be repeated to the point
where it takes on a life of it's own. Tete/Susana Miller/Cacho Dante style
is one of those phrases. I'm sure Tete would be quite perplexed as to why he
was lumped together with them. Other than the fact that they dance close (as
do many thousands of other Argentine tango dancers), there is almost nothing
similar in their styles.
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 13:59:18 -0700
From: Brian Dunn <Brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing (and what is what anyway?)
Jason wrote:
>>>
You can't come to an agreement about what to call artificial grouping
categories of dancing, but everyone seems to be able to identify the
preferred dancing styles of every individual you name. Instead of spinning
your wheels, why not identify the styles with the
proponents. Tete/Miller/Dante style is henceforth "Tete/Miller/Dante
style".
<<<
Bravo, Jason! This approach has the great wisdom of reflecting without
needless abstraction what is actually happening, i.e., certain teachers
teaching similar things.
In a similar vein, Brigitta Winkler once mentioned that one nickname for
what many call "Nuevo Tango" is now "Faguchi", a term derived from
FAbianGUstavoCHIcho (although to convey a perceived hierarchy, some prefer
"Gufachi", which isn't quite as pleasing phonetically...) ;>
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
1(303)938-0716
https://www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 14:48:30 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing (and what is what anyway?)
Charles Roques writes:
> Huck wrote:
> > "What makes club-style tango club-style is not
> > sharing an axis at the sternum, but rather a strict
> > adherence to the rhythm of the music as opposed to
> > using pauses. A club-style dancer steps on every
> > single beat or half beat while dancing to a typical
> > D'Arienzo."
>
> Since when was pausing, in any style of tango, either for musical
> reasons or for giving the follower time to express herself,
> considered a separate type?
Well I can't speak to exact dates, but there is
a point in the tango development timeline when dancers
moved from sticking with the beat to experimenting with
pauses. The music reflects this develpment as well, of
course. Compare early Pugliese with later, for instance.
> It seems everyone wants to create sub-categories for the sake
> of hiding their own confusion about styles of tango.
Tango has always evolved, and one part of that
evolution was from the strict rhythm of club style to
the more free-form rhythm type of dancing now typically
done to Pugliese sets (and also retroactively by many to
earlier tango music as well).
Eduardo Arquimbeau and Nestor Ray are two tangueros
who have lectured about this extensively. They have
lived through various evolutions of tango and are not
simply "creating sub-categories for the sake of hiding
their own confusion about styles of tango."
Huck
Date: Tue, 4 Feb 2003 23:54:52 -0800
From: Robert Hauk <robhauk@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing (and what is what anyway?)
Hey everyone,
I have to agree with Huck on this one. The term apilado is understood
by everyone.
I don't like the description that states the two partners lean on each
other. This wording causes a lot of misunderstanding I think, and ends
up with partners hanging on each other pulling each other off ballance.
Cacho is very specific about this point, there is pressure between the
partners, they push gently toward each other, they don't really lean,
they both have their own balance, but with the forward pressure they
move usually sharing one axis. This is a general statement though, the
frame is more flexable than this might imply. There is subtle movement
sometimes side to side between partners. In some situations the frame
may open into a bit of a vee with contact down one side, leading a
forward ocho, not an ocho cortado, might result in this. The main thing
is that the forward pressure is always present, this is the apilado, or
'piled up' part.
What I don't agree with in this discussion though is the insistance that
this style is only rhythmic. If you watch Cacho dance to Pugliese you
will see many pauses. His movement is often very smooth, not always
stacato. If you watch Tete dance you will see that his movement is also
very smooth.
I have danced apilado for nearly 6 years now. When the music is smooth
and flowing, my movement is smooth and flowing and I often pause. When
the music is very rhythmic, I may dance very stacato, but never for a
whole song, I will play with the energy of the music in the moment, as
though I am playing the music. No orchestra plays exclusively stacato,
or smooth. There is always variation in the music, this is one of the
things I love about this music. No other dance music I have heard has
so much variation to play with. So I vary the way I dance from song to
song, and from musical passage to musical passage within a song, and I
dance exclusively apilado, unless I end up dancing with a partner who
insists otherwise.
I am enjoying this discussion because usually when tango styles are
discussed it sounds like there are 5 styles of tango, and the truth is
that there are hundreds. Within the sub-style we call apilado there is
a tremendous range. If you spend any time in Buenos Aires at the
afternoon milongas downtown you will see what I mean. A lot of those
older dancers dance apilado, but they don't dance the same style,
because style is something more personal, and specific.
What is important to understand, especially for followers, is that these
many different styles of tango often have technique points that are
important to know to dance comfortably. You can't dance apilado with
the same technique you use dancing Todaro style 'salon', to give one
example.
One thing that I remember being very frustrated with when I was new to
tango was how one travelling teacher would insist that something be done
one way, and the next teacher would contradict the first on this point
and insist on something else. Later when I finally appreciated how many
styles of tango there are I began to understand that both were right.
When someone insists on a point of technique, watch how they dance. If
they know how to teach what they dance it should be clear watching them
dance why they insist that things are that way. When the next one
contradicts the first, watch that one dance and you will see why they
say what they do.
We should be thankful for this confusing range of styles, it gives each
one of us the possibility of creating our own personal style. All of
the teachers that have been influential for me have insisted that one
has to make the dance their own. You have to spend enough time dancing
so that the movements become yours, and you can express what you feel in
the music to your partner. You don't have to learn every style, or
every possible step to do this, in fact all of my teachers have said
that you shouldn't try to do that. It isn't important to know many
steps, or many styles, it is more important to be able to dance to the
music and share the feeling with your partner.
Abrazos,
Robert
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 10:35:32 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing (and what is what anyway?)
Robert writes:
> We should be thankful for this confusing range of styles,
> it gives each one of us the possibility of creating our
> own personal style.
I couldn't agree more, Robert!
Consider the alternative: We could publish
a book stating the One True Way To Dance, all become
cookie-cutter clones of each other, then all dress
up in tacky, garish outfits and hold competitions to
further reinforce our cookie-cutter cloneness and add
petty favoritism and jealousy to the mix as well,
turn tango from a vibrant social dance where the
goal is to not have someone avert your gaze at
a milonga into, instead, a dead social scene where
the sole purpose of dancing is not to socialize but
rather to win prizes at competitions and bilk lonely
widows and widowers out of their retirement money
at studios with marginal teachers charging outrageous
prices, and call ourselves ballroom dancers!
What a precious gift our diversity really is.
Huck
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 17:55:31 +0000
From: Richard deSousa <m1aport@ATTBI.COM>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing (and what is what anyway?)
Yipes... barf... sounds like ballroom dancing to me! LOL
Rich
> Robert writes:
> > We should be thankful for this confusing range of styles,
> > it gives each one of us the possibility of creating our
> > own personal style.
>
Huck says:
> I couldn't agree more, Robert!
>
> Consider the alternative: We could publish
> a book stating the One True Way To Dance, all become
> cookie-cutter clones of each other, then all dress
> up in tacky, garish outfits and hold competitions to
> further reinforce our cookie-cutter cloneness and add
> petty favoritism and jealousy to the mix as well,
snip...
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:50:09 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing (and what is what anyway?)
Huck Kennedy wrote:
What a precious gift our diversity really is.
Amen.
Besides diversity and the willingness of those of us who are not-so expert
(such as myself) to express our opinions repeatedly, I think that we have
established (once again) that the names of styles can be relatively fluid
and inconsistent.
One might think that is simply the nature of importing Argentine tango
into the United States, but some of the inconsistency in naming styles
originates in Argentina. As has been previously established, Susana
Miller refers to her and Tete's styles as "milonguero." Tete refers to
his style as "salon." Eduardo Arquimbau says that he taught Tete "club."
That is an inconsistency across people.
Apparently, even a single individual can express inconsistency about his
own style. I have studied tango extensively with Nito Garcia. During his
first visit to Dallas (more than six years ago), which Susan and I
sponsored, someone asked Nito what style he danced. He replied that he
danced a mixture of salon and orillero. On a subsequent visit, Nito told
everyone just after he and Elba were introduced to dance an exhibition
that he and Elba were social dancers not stage dancers, but they were
happy to dance exhibitions so everyone could see how social tango is
danced. Now Linda Valentino reports Nito as saying emphatically, "What I do is fantasia, not salon."
All of this points to the seeming futility of arriving at a definitive set
of names for style of tango. But, I do not agree that the attempting to
clarify the names of styles is a wasteful exercise. People who approach
tango for the first time are now confronted with a mulitplicity of styles.
In addition, many instructors and dancers claim that their own style is
the truth and other styles are inauthentic or are for those who have
little skill.
I think this topic of styles arises from time to time precisely because
there is confusion about the multiplicity of styles and and the
inconsistent names that are used to identify the styles. To address old
questions once again need not be redundant if there is a new audience or
we reach a new understanding. Unfortunately, Eduardo Arquimbau and others
like him do not participate in Tango-L, so we are stuck with the opinions
of people like me and others who have been dancing a long time and hope we
are accurately representing the sense of what people like Eduardo and our
own experiences have taught us.
Those who are not interested in such a discussion are free to delete their
emails, but let's face it, we cannot dance tango online. We can only
discuss it.
With best wishes for all,
Steve
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 15:02:34 -0500
From: Manuel Patino <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing (and what is what anyway?)
----- Original Message -----
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 14:35:34 -0700
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing (and what is what anyway?)
Robert Hauk said:
>Hey everyone,
>
>I have to agree with Huck on this one. The term apilado is understood
>by everyone.
This discussion, and a private email from a lurker, has informed me
that the more important audience isn't sharing our "conversation over
beers". I'm thinking of the newcomers who drop in for the first time,
or see us dancing in public.
Joe Public walks up and says things like, "Wow, that looks cool! Is
that tango or what? I've seen the tango on the Addams Family, or
Scent of a Woman, or Tango Lesson", etc.
In this context, it is probably easier to say simply, "Yes, we're
dancing tango, close-embrace tango." He or she is likely to say,
"Yep, you sure are dancing close. Do they know each other?"
Frankly, the uninitiated would be equally amazed about this closeness
whether they stumbled in on milonguero/apilado/club or "the elegant,
walking salon tango as danced socially in 1940s Buenos Aires". I'm
not sure what they would think about the freer forms of nuevo tango!
The most appropriate response is not to use some odd Spanish word
followed by a discussion of the different styles.
On this over-intellectual list however, discussion and "frank
exchanges of opinon" are welcome and valuable, irregardless of
whether we agree or disagree upon everything.
I do not agree that this discussion as a whole is divisive, nor that
it has remotely raised the spectre of controversy about "what is
"real" tango".
>What I don't agree with in this discussion though is the insistance that
>this style is only rhythmic. If you watch Cacho dance to Pugliese you
>will see many pauses. His movement is often very smooth, not always
>stacato. If you watch Tete dance you will see that his movement is also
>very smooth.
Robert is certainly right that a good dancer varies the musical
interpretation depending on the orchestra, no matter what style of
tango they prefer.
Cacho is well-known as a Pugliese dancer, which may or may not be an
issue with some of the older milongueros in Buenos Aires. But Cacho
frequently and intentionally teaches with the SQQS rhythm.
When I watched Cacho Dante teach a year or so ago, his primary
foundational step was precisely this SQQS rhythm with a forward,
together-together-together pattern.
This ultra-simple foundation, had a profound effect on me, as it
contains so little vocabulary (the rawest beginner can achieve it),
yet so many of the important social tango concepts (rhythms, walking,
navigation, lead-follow, momentum, compression, posture, energy). The
infamous 8CB w/ DBS contains fewer concepts (vocabulary, walking, and
maybe or maybe not lead-follow!). Unfortunately, memorizing the 8CB
removes the navigational ability a newcomer guy walked in the door
with.
I have observed that there is a preponderance of teachers who use the
slow, walking beat of Di Sarli as their primary methodology, and not
very many instructors showing beginners the staccato half-time rhythm
of D'Arienzo. Obviously a good dancer must have access to both the
SSSS and the SQQS rhythms as a minimal basis for their musicality,
and I think this should be taught from the start.
Cacho's foundational exercise is a good one for this.
Now, I may be a maverick because I believe the most important thing
about tango is Tango DANCING, not Tango VOCABULARY. Any great
teacher, and any Intermediate guy can show vocabulary...the trick is
getting students to feel like they are dancing to the music, having
fun, being successful, etc. They have a lifetime to learn steps.
--
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-388-2560
Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2003 13:47:59 -0800
From: Rick FromPdx <bugsbunny1959@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: let's find a new name insted of this silly old milonguero style thing (and what
For what its worth, when I go ballroom dancing, the dancers typically do
Waltz, Foxtrot, Cha-Cha, Rhumba, West Coast Swing, Night Club 2 Step,
ballroom Tango & Samba. In Argentine Tango, if I dance the same 'style' all
night, I'm pretty much doing one dance the whole evening...
Rick
