2552 Milonga etiquette
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 09:23:56 -0700
From: luda_r1 <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Milonga etiquette
Western Larch wrote:
"...What I've decided to do is to tell beginner
followers (the usual victims) that they aren't
obligated to dance with any guy who has to explain
stuff verbally instead of physically. Thoughts?
Will that work as intended?..."
My favorite instructor has one cardinal rule when
teaching, which he will not bend, for love or money:
No leading by mouth. Period. If you can't lead it, you
can't dance it. Seems to work pretty well. His
milongas are always mobbed. The women think he walks
on water, and the men also seem to think he's pretty
cool. Hey, they want to walk on water, too.
Luda
=====
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 12:40:51 EDT
From: Mallpasso@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Milonga etiquette
Which milonga is this?
In a message dated 7/14/2004 09:25:58 Pacific Daylight Time,
luda_r1@YAHOO.COM writes:
Western Larch wrote:
"...What I've decided to do is to tell beginner
followers (the usual victims) that they aren't
obligated to dance with any guy who has to explain
stuff verbally instead of physically. Thoughts?
Will that work as intended?..."
My favorite instructor has one cardinal rule when
teaching, which he will not bend, for love or money:
No leading by mouth. Period. If you can't lead it, you
can't dance it. Seems to work pretty well. His
milongas are always mobbed. The women think he walks
on water, and the men also seem to think he's pretty
cool. Hey, they want to walk on water, too.
Luda
=====
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:05:55 -0500
From: Gibson Batch <gibsonbatch@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Milonga etiquette
Luda wrote:
My favorite instructor has one cardinal rule when
teaching, which he will not bend, for love or money:
No leading by mouth. Period. If you can't lead it, you
can't dance it.
YES YES YES. Thank you Luda, whoever you are. I am certainly not an
instructor, but I do love to dance with new followers - without using words
or taking up too much space.
But the recent rants about leaders did cause me to reflect on why I do
gravitate to 'victims' as some would like to think when there are several
others in the room with greater skill.
The reasons for me (and I think all men) are never one of power or control
over women. Yuck. Please give me a break. I dance tango for excitement,
and I choose followers according to their ability to induce some excitement
in my lead.
Sure, almost any leader can dance with a seasoned follower, but it takes
confidence and patience and true art to lead someone who hasn't had the
usual core instruction.
A seasoned dancer may be able to cover for my mistakes, which is appreciated
when I do step the wrong way. I am thankful for these followers who cover
my deficiencies as a leader.
But a new follower will do EXACTLY what I tell her to do, and if she fails
to do the right step, then I must be doing something wrong with my lead. So
I do it again with her until I lead it right.
I will add that several experienced follower anticipate, which drives me mad
with anxiety about dancing with them again. Or their close embrace is too
intimate for my blood. Again, yuck. And seasoned followers can be critical
(perhaps this holds for a few Tango-L recipients :-), which is also damaging
to my ability to dance (with them). If you are critical of leaders, I am
sorry, but I choose to dance with someone who isn't.
So when given the choice between dancing with a 'seasoned' follower who is a
known crab or dancing with a inexperienced yet lovely and eager person (and
doesn't anticipate), which would you choose?
By the way, Tango-L is NOT a good place to rant, in my mind. Sorry, it
depresses me to hear your complaints. Tango is mented to be lived, not
ranted at. I hope I don't sound like I am ranting right now, and I
apologize if I am.
But I am going dancing tonight, and I am really looking forward to seeing
smiles.
Gibson
Minneapolis
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 10:44:36 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Milonga etiquette
Gibson Batch wrote:
> A seasoned dancer may be able to cover for my mistakes, which is
appreciated
> when I do step the wrong way. I am thankful for these followers who cover
> my deficiencies as a leader.
>
> But a new follower will do EXACTLY what I tell her to do, and if she fails
> to do the right step, then I must be doing something wrong with my lead.
So
> I do it again with her until I lead it right.
These are very honorable intentions, but as to a new follower doing EXACTLY
what you lead, as a "seasoned" follower I have my doubts about that. For all
I know, this is the quality of a well trained follower, not a beginner.
I once listened to an interview conducted with a violinist, who played a
Stradivari. She said, it is "scary" for her to play that famous, venerable
old instrument, because it is so sensitive, it produces *exactly* what she
plays. If she plays well, the sound is briliant, and it will express all her
feelings. If she plays badly, you can also really hear it.
Astrid
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 01:26:40 -0600
From: David Hodgson <DHodgson@TANGO777.COM>
Subject: Re: Milonga etiquette
I liked what you both had to say.
However, I will only respond by saying that for the Stradivarius and Follow
alike.
This is where some leads revel and play,
Not of what we think we know or what might be going on.
It is here where we know what is happening, with out any masks or
pretension.
That we know a step has truly been taken, a step has been clearly
communicated and response has been clearly listened to.
David Hodgson
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 7:45 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Milonga etiquette
Gibson Batch wrote:
> A seasoned dancer may be able to cover for my mistakes, which is
appreciated
> when I do step the wrong way. I am thankful for these followers who cover
> my deficiencies as a leader.
>
> But a new follower will do EXACTLY what I tell her to do, and if she fails
> to do the right step, then I must be doing something wrong with my lead.
So
> I do it again with her until I lead it right.
These are very honorable intentions, but as to a new follower doing EXACTLY
what you lead, as a "seasoned" follower I have my doubts about that. For all
I know, this is the quality of a well trained follower, not a beginner.
I once listened to an interview conducted with a violinist, who played a
Stradivari. She said, it is "scary" for her to play that famous, venerable
old instrument, because it is so sensitive, it produces *exactly* what she
plays. If she plays well, the sound is briliant, and it will express all her
feelings. If she plays badly, you can also really hear it.
Astrid
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 15:19:35 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Milonga etiquette
astrid wrote:
>Gibson Batch wrote:
>
>> <>A seasoned dancer may be able to cover for my mistakes, which is
>> appreciated
>
>>when I do step the wrong way. I am thankful for these followers who cover
>>my deficiencies as a leader.
>>
IMO, I think you have little to be thankful for. I would find it
patronizing
to have someone cover my deficiencies as a leader, and I think that
followers
who do that disconnect themselves from the moment and from me.
Truly, I know I can make the best follower look awful. And if she doesn't
care to be in that position, she doesn't have to dance with me. But people
that know tango, will see that I'm making her look bad. Poeple that don't
know tango, who cares what they have to say? And in any case, does she
dance with me or the peanut gallery?
>> <>But a new follower will do EXACTLY what I tell her to do, and if
>> she fails
>> to do the right step, then I must be doing something wrong with my
>> lead. So
>
>>I do it again with her until I lead it right.
>>
>These are very honorable intentions, but as to a new follower doing EXACTLY
>what you lead, as a "seasoned" follower I have my doubts about that.
>
I've been dancing tango for almost exactly one year, and by no means do I
set myself up as an expert here. But I've danced with about 60 different
women, ranging from 50 years of professional experience to ones who had
never danced in their life, and I've paid close attention all along. In my
experience, many, many new followers either anticipate like crazy or
respond
somewhere between a sack of potatoes and an upright piano. Even worse, some
swing between the extremes of anticipation and sluggishness, which makes it
even harder on me.
>For all
>I know, this is the quality of a well trained follower, not a beginner.
>I once listened to an interview conducted with a violinist, who played a
>Stradivari. She said, it is "scary" for her to play that famous, venerable
>old instrument, because it is so sensitive, it produces *exactly* what she
>plays. If she plays well, the sound is briliant, and it will express all her
>feelings. If she plays badly, you can also really hear it.
>
The best follower I ever danced with was in Champaign-Urbana when Gloria
and Eduardo Arquimbau taught there in August of last year.
I had started dancing tango about one month before and though I had by the
grace of good fortune a decent lead for a beginner, by following exactly
as I led, she showed me all the places where my lead had nothing to do with
my intentions over and over again. Although I had no idea at the time, it
was an enlightening experience.
--
Christopher L. Everett
Chief Technology Officer www.medbanner.com
MedBanner, Inc. www.physemp.com
Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:07:07 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Milonga etiquette
These are very honorable intentions, but as to a new follower doing EXACTLY
what you lead, as a "seasoned" follower I have my doubts about that. For all
I know, this is the quality of a well trained follower, not a beginner.
I once listened to an interview conducted with a violinist, who played a
Stradivari. She said, it is "scary" for her to play that famous, venerable
old instrument, because it is so sensitive, it produces *exactly* what she
plays. If she plays well, the sound is briliant, and it will express all her
feelings. If she plays badly, you can also really hear it.
Astrid
Hi Astrid,
I agree with you completely on this. I could have burst a gut laughing when
i read about a beginner following "exactly" what is lead. Actually the
opposite is more likely to happen. A skilled woman tango dancer follows much
more precisely. The reason she might appear to cover up the leaders errors
is because the dances more smoothly and seamlessly even with a less skilled
leader. If a woman starts dancing by herself, she is no longer a good
follower (or a good dancer). personally I find very annoying "las que bailan
solas".
Great followers to all leaders,
Manuel
Date: Fri, 16 Jul 2004 15:24:24 -0700
From: Tango Luna <tangoluna@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Milonga etiquette
Yup, I agree, too. It takes a considerable amount of seasoned experience to
follow the lead exactly. That is, to be ONE with your partner, to move ever
so slightly because you feel him move ever so slightly, to take the length
of step he intends you to take, because you can feel the exact length he is
leading. It can take years to develop this skill and when a follower has
achieved this skill, it is said that dancing with her is like driving a high
performance responsive car like a Porche, and not your old cluncky Buick.
Pia
>From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
>Reply-To: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Milonga etiquette
>Date: Thu, 15 Jul 2004 22:07:07 -0400
>
>These are very honorable intentions, but as to a new follower doing EXACTLY
>what you lead, as a "seasoned" follower I have my doubts about that. For
>all
>I know, this is the quality of a well trained follower, not a beginner.
>I once listened to an interview conducted with a violinist, who played a
>Stradivari. She said, it is "scary" for her to play that famous, venerable
>old instrument, because it is so sensitive, it produces *exactly* what she
>plays. If she plays well, the sound is briliant, and it will express all
>her
>feelings. If she plays badly, you can also really hear it.
>
>Astrid
>
>Hi Astrid,
>
>I agree with you completely on this. I could have burst a gut laughing when
>i read about a beginner following "exactly" what is lead. Actually the
>opposite is more likely to happen. A skilled woman tango dancer follows
>much
>more precisely. The reason she might appear to cover up the leaders errors
>is because the dances more smoothly and seamlessly even with a less skilled
>leader. If a woman starts dancing by herself, she is no longer a good
>follower (or a good dancer). personally I find very annoying "las que
>bailan
>solas".
>
>Great followers to all leaders,
>
>Manuel
