290 Modern Music, Piazzolla, Pugliese and Sexteto Tango
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 05:51:15 -0800
From: clayton beach <akumushi@ONEBOX.COM>
Subject: Modern Music, Piazzolla, Pugliese and Sexteto Tango
The Troilo and Sexteto tango Cd's are also my favorites of the RCA victor
series. They are amazing pieces of music. I know that many people who
like the older, dance oriented music of Troilo might order that CD expecting
something else, so I made that qualification.
I m also sorry for the misinformation about the Troilo. Piazzolla was
not arranging for Troilo at the time. However, if you listen to Piazzolla
from the Forties on albums like Se Armo or El Desbande, and then listen
to the Troilo CD, especially tracks like A Mis Viejos and Responso, you
will notice many stylistic similarities. There are times when it is
hard for me to believe that the direction does not come from Piazzolla.
If only he had pursued THAT path of his creativity. He was a decent
orchestra leader, and could have been one of the best in modern tango
music.
I also realize that I should the basis of my comment that Sexteto Tango
is more "progressive" than Piazzolla needs clarification.
For me, Piazzolla s nuevo tango represents a dead end in the evolution
of the tango. So many new tango musicians try to emulate a style that
is so unique it can only survive within the realm of Piazzolla. Every
piece has elements that are unique to him, and to try to create songs
in his style is plagiarism. The tango is a dance that was created before
the music that accompanies it. The music sprang from the dance, and
to try to separate the two is ridiculous. Piazzolla's removal of any
semblance of a danceable tango rhythm is like trying to surgically remove
the 3/4 time signature of a waltz and leaving its soul intact. Without
that rhythm the music loses its identity. It may become something new
and valuable, but it is NOT TANGO. I m sick of hearing copycat new recordings
and reading their liner notes that proclaim that Astor Piazzolla is the
father of modern tango, and I m sick of Americans and other foreigners
trying to jazz things up using actual jazz improvisation and rhythms.
The feel of jazz, its rhythms and its tonality, is something that destroys
the melancholy and drama of the tango. I love jazz and I love tango,
but not jazzy tango. New musicians want the freedom that Piazzolla
created, and want to show how good they are. In my opinion, operating
within bounds, in restraints and still being creative speaks more about
one s talent than throwing out all the rules and having chaos. Take
Thelonious Monk or John Coltrane versus Ornette Coleman and his free
jazz.
In tango, the pivotal member of the modern tango movement, and the one
who opened the most doors is Osvaldo Pugliese. Pugliese gives us examples
of what can be done with Piazzolla's contributions while respecting the
past. He moves BEYOND Piazzolla. Take his versions of Zum, or Adios
Nonino. These tracks take ideas that Piazzolla introduced, and incorporate
these new possibilities along with the traditional, making progressive
tango that is still TANGO. In this way, I deemed Sexteto Tango more
progressive than piazzolla in that they continue to explore possibilities
within the tango. A beautiful recording for the history of tango is
Piazzolla and Pugliese's concert together, available on CD's entitled
"finally together."
Sexteto Tango respects the past and the rules of the tango, though they
bend and twist these rules in their creative endeavors. They found
ways to explore dissonance and rhythm that are relevant to the music
they play. To ignore 100 years of evolution because one man decided
that the rhythm and tonality of the tango and the needs of us dancers
were limiting his artistic freedom is absurd. It is also ridicualous
to throw away his additions, though that behavior is almost non-existant.
Throughout tango s evolution, there have been revolutions and discoveries
of how to improvise. But the ball always rolled forward. Musicians
have experimented with what embellishments fit, and how to use melody,
harmony, dissonance and rhythm within the world of the tango. For me,
the most profound, and progressive discussion of these concepts to date
is found within the music of Sexteto Tango.
Piazzolla lost his way and left modern musicians to pick up the pieces
after his revolution. To this day, many are still confused. Unfortunately,
today most tango musicians are reduced to mimicry, whether of the orchestras
of the Golden age, or Piazzolla s quintets. Many of the most promising
ones have decided to follow Piazzolla s path of self-gratification, ignoring
the roots of the tango and the people that truly keep it alive. Only
a handful are producing original and thoughtful, yet danceable tango.
I m sure this will spark many responses, in favor of Piazzolla, or many
contemporary artists. I d love to hear everyone s thoughts.
Keep in mind that I do like Piazzolla s music, I have maybe thirteen
or so of his albums, but for the most part I would consider it classical
music before I would consider it tango. There are maybe five of his
"nuevo" tangos that I would actually enjoy dancing to.
I also am a great fan of Color Tango, though I wish they would ditch
their keyboardist and the synthesized strings (not the pianist; she s
incredible). I just wish they would except the fact that they are not
a large orchestra like those of yesteryear, and that they would use that
to their advantage, in order to cultivate a unique style.
The Quintet and Sextet have been the foundations of many of the most
advanced schools of tango. These guys to not need to "fill out" their
sound by resorting to synthesizers.
--
Clayton Beach
akumushi@onebox.com
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 01:10:05 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Modern music, Piazzolla, Pugliese and Sexteto Tango
I m sick of hearing copycat new recordings
> and reading their liner notes that proclaim that Astor Piazzolla is the
> father of modern tango, and I m sick of Americans and other foreigners
> trying to jazz things up using actual jazz improvisation and rhythms.
Many of the most promising
> ones have decided to follow Piazzolla s path of self-gratification,
ignoring
> the roots of the tango and the people that truly keep it alive. Only
> a handful are producing original and thoughtful, yet danceable tango.
>
*
Whether you like it or not, Clayton, Piazzolla IS the father of modern
tango. The truth is, by the time Piazzolla arrived on the scene, tango was
already dying. (A German scholar of the Ibero- American research institute
writes, to my great surprise, that in the Eighties tango was kept alive in
Japan) Most of the Argentines were dancing Rock n' Roll and other things,
and in Europe tango was no longer popular either.
I have a close friend from BsAs who spent his teenage years with the notion
that tango was something for old folks, like his parents. Until his
girlfriend, the niece of Astor, introduced him to her uncle.
Piazzolla's piano teacher was a student of a student of Rachmaninov (Nadia
Boulanger, Bela Wilder ), and if you listen carefully, you can still find
Rachmaninov's harmonies in Piazzolla's music.
I don't know what Jazz is supposed to have to do with any of this.
Fact is, Piazzolla made listening to tango interesting for the young
generation, who was not into that scratchy old fashioned stuff their parents
loved,
and that opened the door to all the other older music being revived and
listened to by the younger ones too, because they eventually started to
dance tango again.
Those who want "original and thoughtful, yet danceable tango" are often the
same ones who joined the bandwagon after Piazzolla made the music popular
again.
Astrid
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 01:41:26 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: correction Modern music, Piazzolla, Pugliese and Sexteto Tango
I gave you some wrong information.
Piazzolla's piano teacher was Bela Wilder (or Wilda, depending on the
source), Rachmaninov's student.
(Astor's mother paid the family's friend with a pot of Ravioli for his
services, for lack of other resources)
Later Piazzolla got a job as a substitute bandoneonist in Troilo's
orchestra. He did his audition playing George Gershwin. (that must be where
the jazz comes in). And Troilo's complete repertoire.
Later he quit his job, went to Paris and met Nadia Boulanger, who was not a
Rachmaninov, but a Ravel student.
She is the one who inspired him to go back to playing tango.
So, Clayton, instead of using the words "ridiculous", "sick of",
"self-gratification" and so on, you should make a distinction between those
tango lovers who love to listen, and to feel the soul of tango and it's
torment, and those who love to dance. And leave those who love to do both to
choose to listen to whoever they like, authentic and danceable or not.
If you want a new young orchestra who plays Piazzolla and also other things,
and is still danceable too and sounds authentic enough, buy Sexteto Sur.
Date: Sat, 3 Nov 2001 11:21:16 -0400
From: Keith Elshaw <keith@TOTANGO.NET>
Subject: Modern Music, Piazzolla, Pugliese and Sexteto Tango
I don't think it has been made clear in this thread that Sexteto Tango was
basically the Pugliese players led by Osvaldo Ruggiero after they left him -
the piano in the hands of Julian Plaza. Osvaldo's music never sounded quite
as good after their departure. They weren't as good either without him - but
his way of approaching things remained with them.
I personally lamented their use of an electric piano on many of their
recording sessions, making the over-all sound close to brittle rather than
rich.
Keith
https://ToTANGO.net
Date: Sun, 4 Nov 2001 10:39:52 -0800
From: Leopoldo Betrico <iwanttotango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Modern Music, Piazzolla, Pugliese and Sexteto Tango
Hi Clayton et al,
It's been a while since I've contributed but this
topic is one that I feel very passionate about and was
unable to resist it.
First and foremost I have to disagree with you on your
views of Piazzolla and modern tango. In my opinion, in
the last 50 years, no one has done more for tango and
the bandoneon than Astor Piazzolla. (I am definitely
very biased in this opinion because it was Piazzolla's
performance that inspired me to take up the
bandoneon).
Piazzolla's music has influenced more musicians abroad
to explore Argentine Tango than any other Argentine
composers. For Argentine Tango to survive and evolve,
you need musicians. It is unfair to separate the
culture, the dance, and the music in Argentine Tango.
(In fact given any music, it is important to take the
culture, politics, social issues, etc. into account
when you're appreciating the music). As the world
changes, people will change, Argentine Tango as a
dance will change, and Argentine Tango music will
change. It is akin to a living and breathing entity
and I hope it will live on for many more centuries to
come.
Piazzolla also influenced a significant portion of the
younger Argentine population. At a time when tango was
fading away amidst political turmoil, he was very
influencial in the evolution of tango as music and as
a culture. Many young people who identified with him
and his music were led to a re-explore the tango of
their parents/grand parents. Having lived in the US
for quite some time, I think that a misconception most
North Americans have is that every Argentine dances
the tango. The tango is everywhere in Buenos Aires, we
hear it, we feel it, we breathe it, but only a small
portion of the population actually dances it,
especially the younger generation.
Now to directly address your comments...
> The tango is a dance
> that was created before
> the music that accompanies it.
Where did you get this information from? Tango is a
dance that has evolved *along* with the music. The
music, dance, and culture all evolved at the same
time. People dance to music. I can understand an
argument that the music came before the dance but the
reverse would suggest that the dance is done like a
sport or some physical activity in its own.
> Piazzolla's removal of any
> semblance of a danceable tango rhythm is like trying
> to surgically remove
> the 3/4 time signature of a waltz and leaving its
> soul intact. Without
> that rhythm the music loses its identity. It may
> become something new
> and valuable, but it is NOT TANGO.
You mentioned a few times about "rules" and "bounds",
and what constitutes a tango. Let me ask you a plain
question, "What to you constitutes a tango?". I am
very curious to hear. What rules and what bounds? I
believe the above statement is a very poor analogy.
The waltz by definition has 3/4 time signature (or
6/8). This is the definition of a waltz. Of course, to
change the time signature to something else would make
it not a waltz. To say that Piazzolla "removed any
semblance of a danceable tango rhythm" and imply that
it is not tango, to me is absurd. What is danceable
tango rhythm to you? Milongas have a few different
rhythms. Are you refering to simplest of all tango
rhythms where just the 1 and the 3 are accented? Or
the 1, the and of the 1, and the 3 are accented? Or
something else? For me what makes certain music a
tango is the visceral aspect of it. The "umpph" in the
song, the undeniable feeling.
I don't understand why some people say one song is
danceable and the other is not. Just because one
person cannot dance to it does not mean that it's
undanceable. I'll admit that it takes more of a
musically experienced ear to appreaciate and dance to
Piazzolla. To be honest, I didn't learn to appreciate
classical music until I started learning an
instrument, learning music, theory, ear training, etc.
Before that, classical music didn't do anything for
me. When I started learning my instrument, I couldn't
get enough of classical music. As time passed, tango
became pale and boring for me. It was Piazzolla that
got me back into the tango. It has the intricacies &
stimulus the brain & ear desires, but most
importantly, it has the **umpph** the heart desires.
The visceral aspect of it. And that's when I first
realized Piazzolla's contribution to tango. Every few
months or so I learn to appreciate Piazzolla's music
at a different level.
Okay I've written long enough. Maybe next time I'll
get into Pugliese (and Color Tango). Playing his
composition is quite fun. Dancing to his music with
the right person is also great. But I digress.
Leopoldo
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 10:33:06 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Modern Music, Piazzolla, Pugliese and Sexteto Tango
To my ears, many of the contemporary orchestras draw on the developments
pioneered by Puglise, Piazzolla, and Salgan. I do not as sharply
distinguish between the contributions of these three as others might
because the tango musicians of today have heard all three, and Pugliese's
work took a decidedly Piazzolian turn. (Listen to the CD El Gran Osvaldo
Pugliese en FM Tango.)
The result is that contemporary tango music is not nearly diverse as tango
from the golden age. I would be less inclined to blame Piazzolla for
creating a dead end than to simply think that tango has yet to evolve much
beyond what Piazzolla created because for so many years Piazzolla was
tango.
How does this affect music available for milongas? Late night is a
territory for which the Pugliese orchestra has many excellent and
reasonably high-fidelity recordings. Because most of the post-golden-age
recordings draw heavily from the progressive developments pioneered by the
Pugliese, Piazzolla and Salgan orchestras, their place on the DJs sound
pallette is substantially similar to later Pugliese. Consequently, a DJ
will find it difficult to program a sufficient variety of music for a full
evening without relying heavily on less contemporary recordings.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Mon, 5 Nov 2001 09:42:43 -0800
From: Larry Duke <auto_d20@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: correction Modern music, Piazzolla, Pugliese and Sexteto Tango
--- astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> wrote:
>
> If you want a new young orchestra who plays
> Piazzolla and also other things,
> and is still danceable too and sounds authentic
> enough, buy Sexteto Sur.
>
I believe that Sexteto Sur has 2 CDs that were
recorded in Japan, but does anyone know where they are sold?
Date: Tue, 6 Nov 2001 08:18:32 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: correction Modern music, Piazzolla, Pugliese and Sexteto Tango
> > If you want a new young orchestra who plays
> > Piazzolla and also other things,
> > and is still danceable too and sounds authentic
> > enough, buy Sexteto Sur.
> >
>
> I believe that Sexteto Sur has 2 CDs that were
> recorded in Japan, but does anyone know where they are sold?
Yes ! I have been through extended research for Steve de Tejas a while ago,
since he could not just walk own the street like me to pick it up.
You can buy at least one of them in Argentina (try tangostore.com) or search
it has an English version, and put in "SUR" ONLY into the search function.
This is the trick, took me checking out about 20 different websites for
this. The second CD is not yet sold in Tokyo, but in BsAs. For more details,
write to Steve, he probably has the exact URL somewhere that I can't find in
a hurry.
I love that CD, am listening to it now. Talk about HiFi, maaaan, best I ever
heard. Naturally, this is new stuff. The younger bandeonist is really cute,
long blonde curls, saw him in a concert.
Astrid
>
>
>
