2167 No Men, Please!
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 19:17:33 -0800
From: Philip Seyer <philipseyer@ILOVEMUSIC.COM>
Subject: No Men, Please!
As I mentioned in an earlier post, men are not welcome and are forbidden to
take a certain Tango class in Sacramento. I wonder about
transexuals--would they be OK? How about transvestites? They might be able
to pass. Note: The usual forms of transvestism were removed from the list of
mental illnesses in 1995. Source:
https://www.sexuality.org/l/incoming/trbasic.html
An opinions?
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 20:47:11 -0800
From: David Hodgson <DHodgson@TANGO777.COM>
Subject: Re: No Men, Please!
I would say if you want to cut threads:
If this is a Woman's only class and I had set it up (note the words "If I
had set it up"). Then no transvestites would be allowed however transexuals
would be allowed.
This should also equally apply for a Men's only class and if I had set it up
(note the words "If I had set it up"). Then no women and no women
crossdressers. However if there is a person that changed their gendre to
male, then they should absolutly be allowed.
Now this is all very funny.....
My2C
David~
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 7:18 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] No Men, Please!
As I mentioned in an earlier post, men are not welcome and are forbidden to
take a certain Tango class in Sacramento. I wonder about
transexuals--would they be OK? How about transvestites? They might be able
to pass. Note: The usual forms of transvestism were removed from the list of
mental illnesses in 1995. Source:
https://www.sexuality.org/l/incoming/trbasic.html
An opinions?
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 16:49:04 +0100
From: Sebastian Arce <allthattango@WANADOO.FR>
Subject: Re: No Men, Please!
Hi Phil,
I've actually read your first comment about the women's technique lesson in Sacramento and came to the conclussion that you are frustrated and =
need to express your anger within the emails you are sending to this list wich I think has to be a tool to let people know more about =
constructive critics or points of view and not personal frustrations.
I don't have any idea wich is the experience that have lead you to make such statements about this lesson in Sacramento. And I'm sure you don't =
even have met the teachers you are talking about or talk to their students to understand better their teaching neither.
I've heard that Sacramento, sadly, doesn't have the chance to have many regular lessons or may I say... choices when it refers to tango =
lessons?.
This women's tango lesson going on in Sacramento is for me offering to Sacto's tango comunity sth they didn't have the chance to enjoy before. =
And thanks to it many women are having a great instruction and possibilities to practice things that are very important for their =
dancing and maybe not have the chance to practice in a normal lesson ( let me tell you that in general we teachers focuse our lessons more on =
the leader's work than the followers forgetting sometimes to point out mistakes in the women's technique ). I might say that this lesons in =
Sacramento is a very good way to help develop tango.
You've talked about Graciela Gonzales:
I know Graciela Gonzales personaly... I can't tell you we are the best friends but I belive she is not only a good teacher but a very kind =
person also.
She knows me since I was 8 or 9 years old. I've learnt many things from her and I respect her a great deal. She tought many things to me and my =
partner at that time ( Geraldine Rojas, amazing dancer who I guess you might heard about ).
I took many lessons from her and Puppy, and I know... dear Phil, that she does have Women's tango lessons as well... where men are not =
addmited.
She has ovbiously open lessons as well. But it depends on the teaching and wich bases she wants to work on.
During their lessons Michelle Wright and Michelle Loughlin, two friends of mine are trying to help followers to develop what can be called =
"individual body control - conscience" . You probably know that eventhough we need two for tango, there are many things men and women =
have to develop before concentraiting on the real-social-dancing.
A work out focused on axis and balance control, introspection of the movement, aesthetics of the dance... and many other things these two =
teachers are helping Sacramento tango followers with, it's something to admire and even an example to be followed. Since this lesson keeps up =
follower's interest in tango.
Last thing, let me give you an advice (from a guy who is a teacher, a professional tango dancer, tanguero de alma, milonguero, and allways an =
open minded student ) ... tomalo o dejalo si? ... in the future please try not to compare teachers... it's not only disrespectful for both =
teachers you are comparing... but it shows how small minded you are as well.
"Tango es antes que nada una danza, antes que una danza, es un arte, antes de ser un arte es una expresion artistica, antes de ser una =
expresion artistica es un sentimiento, una emocion... es por eso que no podemos darnos el derecho de juzgar en lo que se refiere al tango... =
solo debemos apreciar, contemplar"
With all my respects,
Sebastian ARCE
p's: I do apologize for my English writting. I'm actually studing and trying to get a better writting.
Sebastian ARCE
Tango Argentino
www.allthattango.com
www.mephisto-tango.com
+33 (0) 1 46 78 63 58
+33 (0) 6 09 52 39 28
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 4:17 AM
Subject: [TANGO-L] No Men, Please!
> As I mentioned in an earlier post, men are not welcome and are forbidden to
> take a certain Tango class in Sacramento. I wonder about
> transexuals--would they be OK? How about transvestites? They might be able
> to pass. Note: The usual forms of transvestism were removed from the list of
> mental illnesses in 1995. Source:
> https://www.sexuality.org/l/incoming/trbasic.html
>
> An opinions?
>
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 09:55:10 -0800
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: No Men, Please!
Hi,
I would say it is best to check with the instructor.
I think in an earlier post you referred to a class
taught by Graciela Gonzales as "women only". I have
taken some of her women only workshops and the
material that she presents is in some cases more women
focused than it is follower focused. For instance she
uses concepts such as a movement "originating from the
uterus" and other anatomical references that do not
apply to men.
Regards,
Rose
--- Philip Seyer <philipseyer@ILOVEMUSIC.COM> wrote:
> As I mentioned in an earlier post, men are not
> welcome and are forbidden to
> take a certain Tango class in Sacramento. I wonder
> about
> transexuals--would they be OK? How about
> transvestites? They might be able
> to pass. Note: The usual forms of transvestism were
> removed from the list of
> mental illnesses in 1995. Source:
> https://www.sexuality.org/l/incoming/trbasic.html
>
> An opinions?
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 19:09:34 +0100
From: Christian Lüthen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: "Dan Tien" .... Re: [TANGO-L] No Men, Please!
Rose & list!
On 19 Jan 2004 at 9:55, Razor Girl wrote:
> I think in an earlier post you referred to a class
> taught by Graciela Gonzales as "women only". I have
> taken some of her women only workshops and the
> material that she presents is in some cases more women
> focused than it is follower focused. For instance she
> uses concepts such as a movement "originating from the
> uterus" and other anatomical references that do not
> apply to men.
Sure? :-)
Well, perhaps 'uterus' (or as some other instructors claim 'vagina')
as originating place of movement for females comes quite near to a
part of the body know as THE originating point of any movement: 'the
(lower) Dan Tien' ('Tan Tien') [please correct my spelling] as this
point is called by the chinese!
And here, once again, we find the connection between "Tango" and "Tai
Chi (Chuan)"!
If you also agree on that during evolution male sexual organs move
outwards (downwards) due to necessary cooling while the female
counterpart stays inside (in the warm) you see that in an early phase
of overall and individual evolution of the reproductive tract this
center of energy is/was at the same spot at both males & females.
Tempted to say: It's all the same! :-)
Happy dances ... from "Dan Tien" or how ever you want to call it!
Christian
christian@eTanguero.net
https://www.eTanguero.net/
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 10:33:42 -0800
From: Ilona Koren-Deutsch <ilonakd@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: No Men, Please!
--- Philip Seyer <philipseyer@ILOVEMUSIC.COM> wrote:
> As I mentioned in an earlier post, men are not
> welcome and are forbidden to take a certain Tango
> class in Sacramento. I wonder about
> transexuals--would they be OK? How about
> transvestites? They might be able to pass.
> Note: The usual forms of transvestism were
> removed from the list of mental illnesses in 1995.
> Source:
> https://www.sexuality.org/l/incoming/trbasic.html
>
> An opinions?
My opinion is that this isn't an appropriate forum to
discuss your issues with sexuality.
-Ilona
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 11:20:13 -0800
From: Sean Dockery <sean13@MYREALBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: No Men, Please!
Phil,
There actually are a number of classes in Sacramento that are open to all dancers, as well as a practica on Wed., social dancing at Habaneros Cafe L=
atina on Sun., and a milonga every 2nd and 4t Sat. I suggest rather than picking the one class that you (and I) are not allowed to go to and rant=
ing about it, you come out to another event in Sacramento, meet the community, and enjoy dancing and learning here.
While I am not allowed in Michelle and Michelle's Women's technique, I have taken many classes with both of them, and when dancing socially they are=
two of my favorite dance partners. I too was disappointed when finding out that there would be a class taught by these two wonderful teachers th=
at I would be excluded from. However, upon talking to them, they have very good reasons for keeping the class woman only. Though there are a numb=
er of reasons, one that stands out is that they feel it is easier to create an atmosphere of trust in a women only class. While some (like myself=
) might argue this point at first, when you hear other men making comments about the class, or taking it upon themselves to complain about it in p=
ublic, you can really see their point.
Sean
-----Original Message-----
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 19:17:33 -0800
Subject: [TANGO-L] No Men, Please!
As I mentioned in an earlier post, men are not welcome and are forbidden to
take a certain Tango class in Sacramento. I wonder about
transexuals--would they be OK? How about transvestites? They might be able
to pass. Note: The usual forms of transvestism were removed from the list of
mental illnesses in 1995. Source:
https://www.sexuality.org/l/incoming/trbasic.html
An opinions?
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 12:24:12 -0800
From: Ed Loomis <TangoBear@OSBTOWN.COM>
Subject: (fwd) [TANGO-L] No Men, Please!
Hello Philip and everyone,
Enough has been said already about the appropriateness of this venue
for this discussion, but as coordinator for Sacramento Tango I feel the
need to weigh in on this. Phil, I am perplexed over why you keep taking
swipes at this Women's class in Sacramento. It surprised me a bit as well
when they initially excluded men from the class but, hey, they want to
include girl talk and we get in the way. As another instructor has already
observed, regular group classes, especially at the beginning levels, of
necessity, focus more on the man's part of the dance. This is not out of
any sexist disregard for the ladies but because there is not much for the
ladies to do until the men get at least somewhat up to speed. The men have
more tasks to manage than the ladies and many of them are learning to dance
for the first time so it is easy to overwhelm them with more details than
they can keep track of. So a class for the ladies to work on conditioning,
technique, and style is meant to provide some balance to the instruction
being offered overall. Women come from as far away as Grass Valley and
Modesto to attend this class so there is obviously some value to it.
Phil, the two Michelles that teach this women's class are esteemed
veterans of the local tango scene in Sacramento and when you start
attending milongas here you will get to meet them. They are also two of the
best follows in northern California so you might want to have a care about
just how deep a hole you dig for yourself with them. I wouldn't want them
both mad at me! Ciao....................
Ed Loomis
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 19:17:33 -0800, Philip Seyer
<philipseyer@ILOVEMUSIC.COM> wrote:
>As I mentioned in an earlier post, men are not welcome and are forbidden to
>take a certain Tango class in Sacramento. I wonder about
>transexuals--would they be OK? How about transvestites? They might be able
>to pass. Note: The usual forms of transvestism were removed from the list of
>mental illnesses in 1995. Source:
>https://www.sexuality.org/l/incoming/trbasic.html
>
>An opinions?
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 21:32:03 +0100
From: Christian Lüthen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: boys-talk ... Re: [TANGO-L] No Men, Please!
if complaining about girls only classes:
start a boys only class!
there's also enough boys-talk! :-)
also start invert-classes:
boys with girls, but girls become leaders and boys have to follow!
if you're able to provide *real* content ...
... those classes would probably be overcrowded!!!
never forget: have fun dancing!
christian
christian@eTanguero.net
https://www.eTanguero.net/
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 20:34:33 +0000
From: "(Russell Bauer)" <raulman@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: No Men, Please! AND No Women, Please!
Hello,
I certainly have no objections to any kind of single gender dance classes. But, I like to introduce a topic related to this - single gender get-togethers and friendships.
Being part of a social dance community such as a tango has this one peculiarity. One ends up connecting and getting to know members of his/her opposite sex better than his/her own.
Nothing wrong with connecting with someone of the opposite sex, but often, one's enduring, long-lasting and deep friendships are with the same sex.
I think the remedy for this is for only men in tango (no women, please!) to get together and do things outside of dancing and the same for only women in tango (no men, please!).
Russell
> Phil,
>
> There actually are a number of classes in Sacramento that are open to all
> dancers, as well as a practica on Wed., social dancing at Habaneros Cafe Latina
> on Sun., and a milonga every 2nd and 4t Sat. I suggest rather than picking the
> one class that you (and I) are not allowed to go to and ranting about it, you
> come out to another event in Sacramento, meet the community, and enjoy dancing
> and learning here.
>
> While I am not allowed in Michelle and Michelle's Women's technique, I have
> taken many classes with both of them, and when dancing socially they are two of
> my favorite dance partners. I too was disappointed when finding out that there
> would be a class taught by these two wonderful teachers that I would be excluded
> from. However, upon talking to them, they have very good reasons for keeping
> the class woman only. Though there are a number of reasons, one that stands out
> is that they feel it is easier to create an atmosphere of trust in a women only
> class. While some (like myself) might argue this point at first, when you hear
> other men making comments about the class, or taking it upon themselves to
> complain about it in public, you can really see their point.
>
> Sean
>
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 14:54:54 -0800
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: boys-talk ... Re: [TANGO-L] No Men, Please!
--- Christian_L|then <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
wrote:
> if complaining about girls only classes:
> start a boys only class!
> there's also enough boys-talk! :-)
>
> also start invert-classes:
> boys with girls, but girls become leaders and boys
> have to follow!
>
> if you're able to provide *real* content ...
> ... those classes would probably be overcrowded!!!
Good ideas Christian! In Portland we have had some
women only get togethers that have been really fun,
lots of chatting and eating and people bringing their
kids etc. And recently someone had a men's only
milonga that I heard was a lot of fun for the guys.
I like the idea of switching parts and think it's fun.
I know at least one instructor in Portland who
doesn't care if her class has a gender imbalance, she
just has everyone switch parts constantly. I know
it's not for everyone, but with the right attitude it
is a lot of fun.
I think it should be fine for men to come to a
followers technique class but like anyone they should
go to the class of the appropriate level. So if they
do not have much experience with following they should
not come to an advanced technique class. But I also
think that having women only or men only in a class
can really change the dynamic of the class. There are
other things that can be addressed from a women's
perspective that may not pertain to the men (other
than anatomical things which I agree with your other
response that it is all pretty much comes from the
same place) There are things such as body attitude,
how to get dances, what to do if your leader is too
pushy, or how to make yourself feel comfortable in the
embrace, ways to improve balance while wearing high
heals...etc that are primarily concerns to women
followers or are experienced differently by women than
they are men.
Regards,
Rose
Portland, OR
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 16:49:59 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] No Men, Please!
The idea of women's only classes is hardly new. Graciela Gonzalez has
long taught women's only classes in Buenos Aires. When touring, she
teaches both mixed-gender and women's only classes. (Who can attend the
classes frequently depends on the organizer.) Many tango weeks offer
several women's-only classes.
Some might argue that these should be classes in follower's technique open
to anyone who wants to learn follower's technique, but according to the
women who take and teach these women's only classes, there is a
substantial difference in the social dynamics between a follower's
technique class and a women's only class. For one thing, few of the men
who may be interested in attending these classes are likely to have
sufficient following skills to keep up with the class without dragging it
down. The women may also be interested in discussing various aspects of
tango with the teacher and each other without having the men there.
As should be obvious, creating a women's-only class limits the potential
size of the class to about half of the community. So, I see the existence
of women's-only classes and workshops as reflecting on the health/size of
the community and the commitment that the organizers/teachers have to the
quality of dancing in the community. Rather than question the existence
of such events because I have been left out, I am happy at the thought of
so many women interested in improving their dance skills.
With best regards,
Steve
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 18:48:48 -0600
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: boys-talk ... Re: [TANGO-L] No Men, Please!
This Saturday we're having a "Pretty Feet" seminar for women. Men are
invited by special invitation. Not only will we explore ways to make your
dance beautiful using your feet, but we're having foot soaks and massages.
I'm sure during some of this a boorish leader's actions or two will be
discussed. The men have been sworn to secrecy..."What happens at the
follower's workshop, stays at the followers workshop"
However, I may share them with you :)
Lois Donnay
Minneapolis, MN
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] No Men, Please!
> I would say if you want to cut threads:
>
> If this is a Woman's only class and I had set it up (note the words "If I
> had set it up"). Then no transvestites would be allowed however
transexuals
> would be allowed.
>
> This should also equally apply for a Men's only class and if I had set it
up
> (note the words "If I had set it up"). Then no women and no women
> crossdressers. However if there is a person that changed their gendre to
> male, then they should absolutly be allowed.
>
> Now this is all very funny.....
>
> My2C
> David~
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Philip Seyer
> Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 7:18 PM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: [TANGO-L] No Men, Please!
>
>
> As I mentioned in an earlier post, men are not welcome and are forbidden
to
> take a certain Tango class in Sacramento. I wonder about
> transexuals--would they be OK? How about transvestites? They might be able
> to pass. Note: The usual forms of transvestism were removed from the list
of
> mental illnesses in 1995. Source:
> https://www.sexuality.org/l/incoming/trbasic.html
>
> An opinions?
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 08:54:28 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron.ecsedy@OM.HU>
Subject: Re: boys-talk / No Men, Please!
Dear Tangera/os,
Maybe I am just an unsophisticated Eastern European, but I find the idea of strictly girls-only classes a bit awkward.
If some class would involve nudity or delicate personal details about periods or similar, well...I may understand the separation...but if it =
is a tango class...
Does it mean, that those women are unable to maintain their "social dynamics" - as someone put it - while men are present? Do they feel =
insecure? Any other viable explanation? What is the REASON behind it?
Just because the class involves women's technique it shouldn't be exclusive - as some of you separated followers' classes and girls-only =
classes, it shows that this separation is NOT about dancing at all.
If women start a females-only club it is OK with me. But a tango class? Plllllease...
Cheers,
Aron
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lois Donnay [mailto:donnay@DONNAY.NET]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 1:49 AM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] boys-talk ... Re: [TANGO-L] No Men, Please!
>
>
> This Saturday we're having a "Pretty Feet" seminar for
> women. Men are invited by special invitation. Not only will
> we explore ways to make your dance beautiful using your
> feet, but we're having foot soaks and massages. I'm sure
> during some of this a boorish leader's actions or two will
> be discussed. The men have been sworn to secrecy..."What
> happens at the follower's workshop, stays at the followers workshop"
>
> However, I may share them with you :)
>
> Lois Donnay
> Minneapolis, MN
>
> ----------
> Lastname" to LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
> ----------
>
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:59:25 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: boys-talk / No Men, Please!
Aron Ecsedy wrote:
>Maybe I am just an unsophisticated Eastern European, but I find the idea of
strictly girls-only classes a bit awkward.
>If some class would involve nudity or delicate personal details about
periods or similar, well...I may understand the separation...but if it is a
tango class...
It is truly interesting to see you all get so worked up over the fact that
women might want to get together without you. Reminds me vaguely of the "no
public gatherings allowed" law...
Let me let you in on the secret, what really happens in those mysterious, oh
so infuriating exlusively-for-women-classes. I went to one with Angeles ,
who once danced in Tango Passion.
First she trained us in performing those tiny backward ochos used in
milonga, and told us to keep our feet together , and to pivot by shifting
only our high heels around. Then she taught us how to keep our balance in
pointy high heels. ("Try to spread your toes, in spite of being squeezed
into the tip of the shoe, to get a better hold on the floor.") Then she
taught us how to take care of our joints while wearing 3 inch heels, by
relaxing exercises for the ankles and such.
Now, if you guys still are so keen on joining the class, why don't you make
the most of it by buying yourself the appropriate stilettos first.
Astrid's 2 cents
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 10:24:05 +0100
From: Ecsedy Áron <aron.ecsedy@OM.HU>
Subject: Re: boys-talk / No Men, Please!
Dear Astrid,
This is exactly what I expected (wanted?) to hear:
I do not believe that men HAVE to be disqualified from this class you've just described. Maybe it is just not THAT interesting to many of them.
For me: I don't really dance the follower's role ever (except when I'm teaching), but if there is a followers'/ladies' class by a well trained =
dancer I attend - information I get I'll be able to use for two reasons: it deepens my understanding of what SHE does and I'll be able to =
incorporate elements into my teaching programme. (which I tend to develop constantly)
Cheers,
Aron
> -----Original Message-----
> From: astrid [mailto:astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 9:59 AM
> To: Ecsedy Áron; TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] boys-talk / No Men, Please!
>
>
> Aron Ecsedy wrote:
> >Maybe I am just an unsophisticated Eastern European, but I find the
> >idea of
> strictly girls-only classes a bit awkward.
> >If some class would involve nudity or delicate personal
> details about
> periods or similar, well...I may understand the
> separation...but if it is a tango class...
>
> It is truly interesting to see you all get so worked up over
> the fact that women might want to get together without you.
> Reminds me vaguely of the "no public gatherings allowed"
> law... Let me let you in on the secret, what really happens
> in those mysterious, oh so infuriating
> exlusively-for-women-classes. I went to one with Angeles ,
> who once danced in Tango Passion. First she trained us in
> performing those tiny backward ochos used in milonga, and
> told us to keep our feet together , and to pivot by shifting
> only our high heels around. Then she taught us how to keep
> our balance in pointy high heels. ("Try to spread your toes,
> in spite of being squeezed into the tip of the shoe, to get
> a better hold on the floor.") Then she taught us how to take
> care of our joints while wearing 3 inch heels, by relaxing
> exercises for the ankles and such. Now, if you guys still
> are so keen on joining the class, why don't you make the
> most of it by buying yourself the appropriate stilettos first.
>
> Astrid's 2 cents
>
>
>
>
>
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 8:47 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] No Men, Please!
> I would say if you want to cut threads:
>
> If this is a Woman's only class and I had set it up (note the words "If I
> had set it up"). Then no transvestites would be allowed however
transexuals
> would be allowed.
>
> This should also equally apply for a Men's only class and if I had set it
up
> (note the words "If I had set it up"). Then no women and no women
> crossdressers. However if there is a person that changed their gendre to
> male, then they should absolutly be allowed.
>
> Now this is all very funny.....
>
> My2C
> David~
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU]On Behalf Of Philip Seyer
> Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 7:18 PM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: [TANGO-L] No Men, Please!
>
>
> As I mentioned in an earlier post, men are not welcome and are forbidden
to
> take a certain Tango class in Sacramento. I wonder about
> transexuals--would they be OK? How about transvestites? They might be able
> to pass. Note: The usual forms of transvestism were removed from the list
of
> mental illnesses in 1995. Source:
> https://www.sexuality.org/l/incoming/trbasic.html
>
> An opinions?
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 06:43:23 -0800
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: boys-talk / No Men, Please!
--- astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> wrote:
> Let me let you in on the secret, what really happens
> in those mysterious, oh so infuriating
exlusively-for-women-classes. ....
Funny - when I'm in a women-only class we always spend
our time discussing our partners' penis sizes.
;-)
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 13:01:10 -0500
From: A Coleman <gurps_npc@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: No Men, Please!
Astrid, your comments display a dismaying amount of prejudice..
Some men want to follow.
It is rude for women to set up a class for followers and call it "no men".
It was a Followers class, not a "women's class".
It is even MORE rude for the women to assume that men that want to follow
must be gay, as implied by the spike stilletos comment. I am straight but
am interested in taking follower's lessons because it will improve my
general dance ability. Like most men I do not have as good balance as
followers, nor do I have as fine a control over my foot positions as
followers do. I have spent 6 years learning how to lead and am reasonablly
good at it, but a woman that has been following for 2 years does certain
things better than I do.
And it is EVEN MORE rude for the women to use that comment in an insulting
manner, implying that a gay man who might actually want to wear those
stilletos is inferior. There is nothing wrong with being gay, anymore than
being straight.
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:31:41 -0800
From: Farkyu Uptabut <farkyu_uptabut@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: No Men, Please!
Dear Mr. A Coleman,
Respectfully, I think you sadly missed Astrid's point. Maybe I miss
something,
but I observe nothing rude in the post of Astrid.
Since much of the class was the topic of follwing in high heels, it really
was
in large a class for women, or possibly to add men who wear high heels.
Not to beat the bush into the ground, but I think her comment was that
to enjoy the fullest of the class, you would have to be a wearer of high
heals, not an insult of gay. To me Astrid's comments were joking in tone,
but not insultive of anyone.
But by the heat of your comments, I am wondering why you got your
panties in such a twist from the remark of high heels. As you have said,
there is nothing wrong with being gay. (This is not an insult to imply
that YOU are gay - I think probably not - I am just puzzled by your
sensitivity about high heels.)
Regards,
Farkyu
>From: A Coleman <gurps_npc@HOTMAIL.COM>
>RDeareply-To: A Coleman <gurps_npc@HOTMAIL.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] No Men, Please!
>Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 13:01:10 -0500
>
>Astrid, your comments display a dismaying amount of prejudice..
>
>Some men want to follow.
>
>It is rude for women to set up a class for followers and call it "no men".
>It was a Followers class, not a "women's class".
>
>It is even MORE rude for the women to assume that men that want to follow
>must be gay, as implied by the spike stilletos comment. I am straight but
>am interested in taking follower's lessons because it will improve my
>general dance ability. Like most men I do not have as good balance as
>followers, nor do I have as fine a control over my foot positions as
>followers do. I have spent 6 years learning how to lead and am reasonablly
>good at it, but a woman that has been following for 2 years does certain
>things better than I do.
>
>And it is EVEN MORE rude for the women to use that comment in an insulting
>manner, implying that a gay man who might actually want to wear those
>stilletos is inferior. There is nothing wrong with being gay, anymore than
>being straight.
>
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 15:58:48 EST
From: Mallpasso@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: No Men, Please!
Get over it, guys! If you really want a followers class and exclude women,
take the initiative and set one up yourself. Quit whining!
El Bandito de Tango
In a message dated 1/21/2004 10:02:24 Pacific Standard Time,
gurps_npc@HOTMAIL.COM writes:
Astrid, your comments display a dismaying amount of prejudice..
Some men want to follow.
It is rude for women to set up a class for followers and call it "no men".
It was a Followers class, not a "women's class".
It is even MORE rude for the women to assume that men that want to follow
must be gay, as implied by the spike stilletos comment. I am straight but
am interested in taking follower's lessons because it will improve my
general dance ability. Like most men I do not have as good balance as
followers, nor do I have as fine a control over my foot positions as
followers do. I have spent 6 years learning how to lead and am reasonablly
good at it, but a woman that has been following for 2 years does certain
things better than I do.
And it is EVEN MORE rude for the women to use that comment in an insulting
manner, implying that a gay man who might actually want to wear those
stilletos is inferior. There is nothing wrong with being gay, anymore than
being straight.
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 13:03:47 -0800
From: NANCY <ningle_2000@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: boys-talk / No Men, Please!
--- Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> Funny - when I'm in a women-only class we always
> spend
> our time discussing our partners' penis sizes.
>
>
>
> ;-)
>
But only the young and pretty ones dressed
provocatively! ;-)
=====
<<Rito es la danza en tu vida
y el tango que tu amas
te quema en su llama>>
de: Bailarina de tango
por: Horacio Sanguinetti
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 14:19:55 -0800
From: David Hodgson <DHodgson@TANGO777.COM>
Subject: Re: No Men, Please!
AVAST Maties!!!!!
This is getting very silly, really getting out of hand and way off topic of
what I believe this list is about and it's function.
There were some very funny comments, some good points made and personnel
stuff thrown back and forth. Not to mention a few flames.
As a side note: In defense of Phil he posted a link to sexuality.org
This was a really good choice as it is about the best resource on the net
that I know of for the vast topic about human sexuality. Thank you Phil for
this.
I for one am done with this string and dance. Other than reading perhaps a
positive question or comment I hope a large spike has been driven through
it's god forsaken heart and it dies screaming, being thrown into the abyss
of goodbye.
Take care all, I hope everyone is well, have good dances and be well.
David~
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 12:59 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] No Men, Please!
Get over it, guys! If you really want a followers class and exclude women,
take the initiative and set one up yourself. Quit whining!
El Bandito de Tango
In a message dated 1/21/2004 10:02:24 Pacific Standard Time,
gurps_npc@HOTMAIL.COM writes:
Astrid, your comments display a dismaying amount of prejudice..
Some men want to follow.
It is rude for women to set up a class for followers and call it "no men".
It was a Followers class, not a "women's class".
It is even MORE rude for the women to assume that men that want to follow
must be gay, as implied by the spike stilletos comment. I am straight but
am interested in taking follower's lessons because it will improve my
general dance ability. Like most men I do not have as good balance as
followers, nor do I have as fine a control over my foot positions as
followers do. I have spent 6 years learning how to lead and am reasonablly
good at it, but a woman that has been following for 2 years does certain
things better than I do.
And it is EVEN MORE rude for the women to use that comment in an insulting
manner, implying that a gay man who might actually want to wear those
stilletos is inferior. There is nothing wrong with being gay, anymore than
being straight.
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 17:38:37 -0800
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: boys-talk / No Men, Please! & Women's Shoes/Fashion
--- Marisa wrote:
>> Funny - when I'm in a women-only class we always
>> spend
> >our time discussing our partners' penis sizes.
>>;>-)
>>
--- Nancy wrote:
> But only the young and pretty ones dressed provocatively! ;-)
Ah, cr*p! I knew it, sigh... ;o)
I haven't had nearly as good as results as Keith got, after receiving
the exciting, new extenstion technology emails...
Mine's only 6 feet long, not 9'...sigh...
.
Regarding women's footwear, I feel really bad & try hard not
to lead any moves that will make their feet worse, if they tell me
that there feet are hurting already. I tend to look farther up on
a woman's body, so tend not to notice shoes. I've got a good friend
that wears those dance sneakers with all her clothes, dresses, jeans
the works.
.
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 13:27:43 -0500
From: A Coleman <gurps_npc@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: No Men, Please!
I'm Paranoid?
Wow, woman are allowed to get insulted no matter what men say, but the
second I get insulted at something you say, it must be my problem.
Aren't I entitled to my feelings? Or don't they count just because I am a
man.
You do not have the right to say that kind of crap, nor do you have the
right to insult me when I complain about being insulted.
Nothing I said was illogical, but your reply was full of lies about what I
said.
>
>My God, you have certainly made giant leaps of illogic
>here. Walking backwards in high heels is quite
>different from walking forward in flat shoes. You
>would think you would have perceived that after your
>SIX years of leading!
Yes you illogical fool, I know that walking backwards in high heels is quite
different from walking forward in flat shoes. So WHAT YOU PREJUDICED woman.
I want to lwearn how to WALK BACKWARDS IN NON-FLAT SHOES.
How many times do I have to explain that to prejudiced girls that think they
are woman??
As a leader I sometimes walk backwards. Generally I am good enough to do it
in a safe manner - i.e. I start a turn, interupt the woman when she is
facing forwards and I am facing backwards. Then I start a lean by walking
backwards. This is difficult because not only am I walking backwards, I am
supporting here weight. And as I am on the short side, I am weaing shoes
with 2 inch heels. Yes, they may not be the 6 inch heals that you ladies
wear, but in NO WAY am I trying to walk forward while wearing flat-shoes.
Get off your high horse and READ what I write instead of getting angry at me
for being offended by prejudiced coimments.
And Astrid's post straight out says it would be OK if the guy wore spiked
stilletos, just like you insultingly applied
Why was it insulting? Because most people associate cross dressing with
being gay.
Christ, can't a guy have ANY feelings without some rude woman calling him
nasty names because he doesn't like the fact that he is being discriminated
against for being male???
When it comes down to it that is what is going on. No matter what garbage
"reasons" you come up with, the class says No Men. It does not say No
Followers.
That is pracitcally the definition of DESCRIMINATION.
How would you feel if someone said they had a class about how to be a better
Doctor so it was restricted to No Women, because we all women are nurses not
doctors?
Men Follow. If you are going to teach a class about following, it should be
open to men.
Find high-speed net deals comparison-shop your local providers here.
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 13:53:00 EST
From: Mallpasso@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: No Men, Please!
Why would anyone want to be at a place when they're NOT WANTED?
In a message dated 1/22/2004 10:29:28 Pacific Standard Time,
gurps_npc@HOTMAIL.COM writes:
Men Follow. If you are going to teach a class about following, it should be
open to men.
Find high-speed net deals comparison-shop your local providers here.
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 10:40:36 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: No Men, Please!
Some person without a name, Mallpasso@AOL.COM, writes:
>
> Why would anyone want to be at a place when they're NOT WANTED?
Does that mean Martha Burk will finally
pack up her tent pitched outside of the Augusta
National Golf Club and go home? Just curious. :-)
Huck
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 11:37:16 -0800
From: Elemer Dubrovay <dubrovay@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: No Men, Please!
Who is Martha Burk?
Elemer in Reddmond.
On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 10:40:36 -0700 Huck Kennedy
<huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU> writes:
> Some person without a name, Mallpasso@AOL.COM, writes:
> >
> > Why would anyone want to be at a place when they're NOT WANTED?
>
> Does that mean Martha Burk will finally
> pack up her tent pitched outside of the Augusta
> National Golf Club and go home? Just curious. :-)
>
> Huck
>
>
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 14:16:47 -0600
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: No Men, Please!
Martha Burk heads up the National Council of Women's Organizations.
Burk is leading the charge to force the Augusta National Golf Club to admit
women as members. Burk wrote a letter to Hootie Johnson, chairman of the
Augusta National Golf Club, urging the club that was formed in 1932 to open
its membership to women for the first time - in time for the 2003 Masters
golf tournament. So far, no luck.
Gentlemen, you are right. I'm changing the wording on my class for this
Saturday from "women" to "followers". How could I, of all people, be so
insensitive when I spend much of my time leading? I love to lead, and
especially enjoyed the experience when I was in BsAs (practicas only). The
world is changing!
Lois
Minneapolis, MN
www.mndance.com
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Elemer Dubrovay
> Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 1:37 PM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] No Men, Please!
>
>
> Who is Martha Burk?
>
> Elemer in Reddmond.
>
>
> On Thu, 22 Jan 2004 10:40:36 -0700 Huck Kennedy
> <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU> writes:
> > Some person without a name, Mallpasso@AOL.COM, writes:
> > >
> > > Why would anyone want to be at a place when they're NOT WANTED?
> >
> > Does that mean Martha Burk will finally
> > pack up her tent pitched outside of the Augusta
> > National Golf Club and go home? Just curious. :-)
> >
> > Huck
> >
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:30:54 EST
From: Mallpasso@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: No Men, Please!
Who gives a rat's ass about Martha Burk... we're discussing tango classes for
followers; in this case specifically, classes for women only. If men want to
have follower classes, get off your butts and set up one yourself!
El Bandito de Tango
In a message dated 1/22/2004 11:31:40 Pacific Standard Time,
huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU writes:
Some person without a name, Mallpasso@AOL.COM, writes:
>
> Why would anyone want to be at a place when they're NOT WANTED?
Does that mean Martha Burk will finally
pack up her tent pitched outside of the Augusta
National Golf Club and go home? Just curious. :-)
Huck
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 14:13:30 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: No Men, Please!
"El Bandito de Tango" writes:
> Who gives a rat's ass about Martha Burk...
Yeah! Who gives a rat's ass!
> we're discussing tango classes for
> followers; in this case specifically, classes for women only.
> If men want to have follower classes, get off your butts and
> set up one yourself!
Hear, hear! And let Martha Burk get off her butt
and start her own private golf club.
You hit the nail right on the head, Sr. Bandito,
in your previous posting: "Why would anyone want to be
at a place when they're NOT WANTED?"
Huck
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 17:15:54 -0800
From: Rick FromPortland <pruneshrub04@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: No men, please!
A male TV network sportcaster got fired a # of years, after making the astute comment, that "women shouldn't play golf cuz their boobs get in the way of their swing". Not too evolved or bright I say...
.
Michael Crichton also turned in essay, written by George Orwell, into one of his college writing classes & got a C- or D grade.
.
After viewing the Seinfeld pilot show, network executives astutely noted that the ensemble cast didn't work well together...
.
