2164 Origins of the Cruzada?
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 16:55:27 -0700
From: Brian Dunn <brian@DANCEOFTHEHEART.COM>
Subject: Origins of the Cruzada?
Nicole wrote:
>>>
And I have a question for everyone....if tango is all about walking
improvisation..then how would the cruzada for the woman come into play?
Surely most people would recognize that as one of the most identifying
elements of the Argentine Tango....but would that change the concept of just
a walking dance...since crossing the ankles is not a natural movement to
walking backwards?
<<<
I have heard that the cruzada arose out of the need for a woman in a
backward walk to be guided in line of dance around a corner in the floor.
In many situations, the easiest way to accomplish this in a particular step
would be to get her to move her left foot over her right as she approached
the edge of the floor in the corner. Given the frequent
turning-to-the-leader's-left necessitated by line of dance in a crowded
room, learning to lead a woman's foot in that way would have had
considerable utility.
Once you analyze tango steps as "front cross-open-back cross" as the Nuevo
Tango teachers do (instead of forward-side-back that many of us learned as
beginners), it becomes clear that the typical cruzada is a "front cross"
step done while facing the follower's hips to the leader's axis. So a
front-crossing "forward" step in a normal giro turn to the leader's left may
have evolved into the cruzada that we know today.
This helps illuminate why it is untraditional (although not unheard of) to
lead a woman to cross right-over-left - that move has less utility because
the direction of the "turn" doesn't flow as easily with the line-of-dance in
the corners.
All the best,
Brian Dunn
Dance of the Heart
Boulder, Colorado USA
1(303)938-0716
https://www.danceoftheheart.com
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 17:41:16 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Origins of the Cruzada?
I heard somewhere, perhaps from Fabian, that the cruzada is the only
appropriate step, from a structural/mechanical standpoint, given the set-up
of two steps by the leader outside. At that point, the follower is ready to
take a step with her left foot. Because the leader has stepped outside on
her right side, their torsos are already offset, requiring CW rotations of
their torsos WRT their lower bodies in order to maintain their chests facing
each other. The follower at this point has two options. One is to step back,
but that will further offset their upper bodies, requiring an even more
pronounced CW rotation of her upper body to maintain her chest facing his,
at the same time that the lower body is tending to rotate CCW with her left
step bac. Conversely, the other option is for her to step left across in a
cruzada, which maintains the follower's chest facing and aligned with her
leader's, and avoids an uncomfortable major contra-rotation of upper and
lower bodies.
J
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 09:26:08 -0800
From: Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Origins of the Cruzada?
What I learned in Buenos Aires from the old guys is that the cruzada is
not a separate step, but a slightly modified front cross in the sequence
of the molinete. As Nito Garcia told me, he remembers when he was
young, women will front cross way to his left, with her feet wide open
(as in regular front ocho), since the so called "basic" step is not
other than a molinete to the left.
Once the molinetes is set in motion, then the side-back-side-front
(cruzada) sequence will happen, unless the leader blocks the crosses.
This brings up the dreaded question, should the cross be lead?
In my experience, I think that when we relax and as we walk, the cross
is lead automatically by the natural play of the upper body**. I know
there are many opinions on this cross lead thing, so just for kicks,
have you ever notice that nobody ever questions whether the back cross
in the "basic" should be lead.
Carlos Rojas
Portland, OR
** PS: There are other factors that makes this work in addition to the
natural upper body movement, but they are too lenghthy to talk and/or
explain.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 9:41 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Origins of the Cruzada?
I heard somewhere, perhaps from Fabian, that the cruzada is the only
appropriate step, from a structural/mechanical standpoint, given the
set-up
of two steps by the leader outside. At that point, the follower is ready
to
take a step with her left foot. Because the leader has stepped outside
on
her right side, their torsos are already offset, requiring CW rotations
of
their torsos WRT their lower bodies in order to maintain their chests
facing
each other. The follower at this point has two options. One is to step
back,
but that will further offset their upper bodies, requiring an even more
pronounced CW rotation of her upper body to maintain her chest facing
his,
at the same time that the lower body is tending to rotate CCW with her
left
step bac. Conversely, the other option is for her to step left across in
a
cruzada, which maintains the follower's chest facing and aligned with
her
leader's, and avoids an uncomfortable major contra-rotation of upper and
lower bodies.
J
Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software optimizes dial-up to the
max!
LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 11:34:19 +1000
From: John Lowry <john@LOWRY.COM.AU>
Subject: Origins of the Cruzada?
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 07:56:09 +0100
From: etamin@GMX.DE
Subject: Re: Origins of the Cruzada?
Can any body describe how a back cross, in the "basic", should be lead?.
----
Konstantinos P. Papageorgiou
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Origins of the Cruzada?
> What I learned in Buenos Aires from the old guys is that the cruzada is
> not a separate step, but a slightly modified front cross in the sequence
> of the molinete. As Nito Garcia told me, he remembers when he was
> young, women will front cross way to his left, with her feet wide open
> (as in regular front ocho), since the so called "basic" step is not
> other than a molinete to the left.
>
> Once the molinetes is set in motion, then the side-back-side-front
> (cruzada) sequence will happen, unless the leader blocks the crosses.
>
> This brings up the dreaded question, should the cross be lead?
>
> In my experience, I think that when we relax and as we walk, the cross
> is lead automatically by the natural play of the upper body**. I know
> there are many opinions on this cross lead thing, so just for kicks,
> have you ever notice that nobody ever questions whether the back cross
> in the "basic" should be lead.
>
> Carlos Rojas
> Portland, OR
>
> ** PS: There are other factors that makes this work in addition to the
> natural upper body movement, but they are too lenghthy to talk and/or
> explain.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Jay Rabe
> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 9:41 AM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Origins of the Cruzada?
>
> I heard somewhere, perhaps from Fabian, that the cruzada is the only
> appropriate step, from a structural/mechanical standpoint, given the
> set-up
> of two steps by the leader outside. At that point, the follower is ready
> to
> take a step with her left foot. Because the leader has stepped outside
> on
> her right side, their torsos are already offset, requiring CW rotations
> of
> their torsos WRT their lower bodies in order to maintain their chests
> facing
> each other. The follower at this point has two options. One is to step
> back,
> but that will further offset their upper bodies, requiring an even more
> pronounced CW rotation of her upper body to maintain her chest facing
> his,
> at the same time that the lower body is tending to rotate CCW with her
> left
> step bac. Conversely, the other option is for her to step left across in
> a
> cruzada, which maintains the follower's chest facing and aligned with
> her
> leader's, and avoids an uncomfortable major contra-rotation of upper and
> lower bodies.
>
> J
--
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Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 14:52:35 -0800
From: Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Origins of the Cruzada?
Konstantinos P. Papageorgiou wrote: "Can any body describe how a back
cross, in the "basic", should be lead?."
Konstantinos,
Basically the same way as a back ocho, (an ocho and a cross are the same
thing). Although there is never a talk or teachings in regards to
leading the back cross in the so called "basic".
In my experience, the majority of today's dancers don't even realize
where the back cross is in the "basic".
My goal was to arouse a discussion on the miss understandings that we
have about tango, meaning that we argue about leading the front cross,
but omit entirely the back cross; or how we think of a "cruzada" as a
separate step, when it is no more than a front cross.
Fabian's point is that every step in tango is part of the molinete,
therefore the sequence of molinete steps is maintained by the follower,
unless the leader blocks or changes them.
Carlos Rojas
Portland, OR
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 10:56 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Origins of the Cruzada?
Can any body describe how a back cross, in the "basic", should be lead?.
----
Konstantinos P. Papageorgiou
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Origins of the Cruzada?
> What I learned in Buenos Aires from the old guys is that the cruzada
is
> not a separate step, but a slightly modified front cross in the
sequence
> of the molinete. As Nito Garcia told me, he remembers when he was
> young, women will front cross way to his left, with her feet wide open
> (as in regular front ocho), since the so called "basic" step is not
> other than a molinete to the left.
>
> Once the molinetes is set in motion, then the side-back-side-front
> (cruzada) sequence will happen, unless the leader blocks the crosses.
>
> This brings up the dreaded question, should the cross be lead?
>
> In my experience, I think that when we relax and as we walk, the cross
> is lead automatically by the natural play of the upper body**. I know
> there are many opinions on this cross lead thing, so just for kicks,
> have you ever notice that nobody ever questions whether the back cross
> in the "basic" should be lead.
>
> Carlos Rojas
> Portland, OR
>
> ** PS: There are other factors that makes this work in addition to the
> natural upper body movement, but they are too lenghthy to talk and/or
> explain.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of Jay Rabe
> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2004 9:41 AM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Origins of the Cruzada?
>
> I heard somewhere, perhaps from Fabian, that the cruzada is the only
> appropriate step, from a structural/mechanical standpoint, given the
> set-up
> of two steps by the leader outside. At that point, the follower is
ready
> to
> take a step with her left foot. Because the leader has stepped outside
> on
> her right side, their torsos are already offset, requiring CW
rotations
> of
> their torsos WRT their lower bodies in order to maintain their chests
> facing
> each other. The follower at this point has two options. One is to step
> back,
> but that will further offset their upper bodies, requiring an even
more
> pronounced CW rotation of her upper body to maintain her chest facing
> his,
> at the same time that the lower body is tending to rotate CCW with her
> left
> step bac. Conversely, the other option is for her to step left across
in
> a
> cruzada, which maintains the follower's chest facing and aligned with
> her
> leader's, and avoids an uncomfortable major contra-rotation of upper
and
> lower bodies.
>
> J
--
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