1146 Preparing a homage
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 17:35:04 -0800
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Preparing a homage
I believe in progress, well, in agonizingly slow progress at least. (Though
these last few weeks have been very hard on us measured optimists.) Just
imagine, I believe even in Tango-L progress, which reflects to a certain
extent progress in "tango thinking" around the world. (First hand, second
hand, etc.)
But slow indeed.
In my opinion (I do not often express others) one factor in this agonizing
slowness is that frequent contributors have formed their opinions in the
first instance, and still form them as they come into the fold, from very
scant apparent information, and most of it is misinformation. A decade or so
ago, even less, this background would have been perhaps just what was heard
from a few local & traveling, perhaps also BAs based, dance teachers, and
perhaps a superficial trip or two to the milongas, perhaps also bailes, of
BAs.
Once an opinion is formed, particularly if it is also publicly expressed, it
is very difficult to dislodge. Before that happens, the newly initiated will
have spread not so great ideas around, and convince a number of others of
legion bugaboos.
In the case of tango this process is more deadly, because a reliable,
up-to-standard, academic tradition of "tango studies" is virtually
non-existent. In the case of the dance as such it is literally non existent,
just about. In fact, the background middle-class-and-upper culture of the
tango is sui generis in ways that lead to myth being preferred to fact or
history; the mushy, vaguely "poetic", to even the most fascinating concrete
reality, or the most exciting validated conclusion; the timeless and unplaced
pronouncement to a time-and-place framed narrative; incoherence and
bitterness to coherence and detachment. To deal with this at some length
would take us very far, but I will leave the list with a presumed quotation
(source unknown to me, so beware) of J.L.Borges, a talented Portenno writer,
and Nobel prize in literature.
"History is mere history. Myths are what matter. They determine the type of
history a country is bound to create and repeat."
Up to the reader to find this relevant, or irrelevant.
Let me give you an example, and you may think of it as fictional, if you
wish. I do not mean this to be critical of anyone. A man whom I greatly
admire, and has done a lot for tango, was convinced fairly early in his tango
career that some characteristic moves are not authentic, just concoctions of
show dancers, invented late in the day out of whole cloth.
As it turns out his conclusion is "screamingly" erroneous. Such moves are not
only quite old and respectable, but they are essential among the handful of
points of departure from which the whole structure of the classical tango del
40 derives. But the classical tango del 40 is seminal to all that is danced
today with an umbilical cord to tango, except attempts (unconvincing, thus
far) at re-constituting 20's and 30's native vintage idioms. So the
conclusion in question is just about as wrong as a tango dance generalization
can be.
Eventually the person in question tempered his conclusion, at the same time
fixing several other underlying or related bugaboos. I would say that the
conclusion was essentially abandoned, though not all associated bugaboos
were.
But this took long years, and may take yet a few more. During this time a lot
of people seem to have been convinced of things that are not so, hopelessly
confused, or comforted in other mistakes originated elsewhere. For instance,
in the extremely curious idea that the classical tango of the 40's is some
kind of late concoction, or even an outright stage discipline, while a
variant that did not come on its own until the fairly late fifties as a
broadly shared dialect in one of the tango sub-cultures is pronounced the
true authentic social tango of the 40's.
Never mind that it is at best a cousin of what a small minority (even in the
early fifties) danced, according to people who were THERE, and dancing very
well, at the time. These are not Tete', or Cacho Dante, who started both to
dance the tango in 1957 or thereabouts, I believe, and as far as I know make
no extravagant claims about the 1940's themselves, or explicitly subscribe to
extravagant claims by others.
(Meanwhile Rudolfo Valentino's memory continues to be severely cursed for the
actor's failure to dance, in The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, the
classical tango del 40, el tango como manda la ley, explains Raul Julia's
character, nearly twenty years before it was invented. Oh, but this business
of dates and chrono-logic is such a horrendous bore!)
Of course there are people whose bugaboos are, like diamonds, forever ...
perhaps while still in the rough. Upshot: progress is s-l-o-w, and
s--l--o--w--e--r.
Recent "Assassination Tango"-related postings brought again to my mind the
recurring topic of "styles", i.e., variation in the way tangos, valses
creollos and milongas are danced to, socially and otherwise. There are
clearly unresolved naming and conceptual issues that frustrate and confuse
discussants, generating what in my view are mostly apparent disagreements,
the result of faulty communication, itself the result of poor thinking among
influential tango personalities.
Nearly three years ago I started an attempt to help bring some order into the
house; but I soon realized that it was hopeless, and I have observed a
self-imposed quarantine on this topic ever since. Strong feelings, strong
anxieties, and strong prejudices are involved. While the issue itself is
nothing arcane, complicated or mysterious, what has been made of it is well
nigh impenetrable.
There has been some progress. Perhaps I will give it another try now.
But first, there is that homage. Maybe tomorrow. Meanwhile, in case I decide
not to waste any more wax on a bad corpse, I leave you-all with another quote
from Borges, this one properly sourced.
"These ambiguities, redundancies, and deficiencies recall those attributed by
Dr. Franz Kuhn to a certain Chinese encyclopoedia entitled Celestial Emporium
of Benevolent Knowledge. On those remote pages it is written that animals are
divided into (a) those that belong to the Emperor, (b) embalmed ones, (c)
those that are trained, (d) suckling pigs, (e) mermaids, (f) fabulous ones,
(g) stray dogs, (h) those that are included in this classification, (i) those
that tremble as if they were mad, (j) innumerable ones, (k) those drawn with
a very fine camel's hair brush, (l) others, (m) those that have just broken a
flower vase, (n) those that resemble flies from a distance."
In "The Analytical Language of John Wilkins"
Does this sound familiar? Borges must have been very familiar, perhaps
already from the beyond, with some paisanos of his who are tango ...
authorities.
Cheers,
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 18:08:29 -0800
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Preparing a homage
Just occurred to me ... and it is so. Jorge Luis Borges never did get that
Nobel; but a lot of people of good taste, himself included, thought he richly
deserved it. Often, not getting it can be a greater distinction, by the way.
Cheers,
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 03:00:12 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Preparing a homage: "academic tradition?"
I'm curious about your statement (Carlos Lima) that:
"... a reliable, up-to-standard, academic tradition of "tango studies" is
virtually non-existent."
Yet I know there is a so-called "Tango University" in BsAs, and without
knowing anything about it, I had assumed they would have a rigorous academic
treatment of the dance, including historical analysis of forms that have
evolved into our modern conglomeration of styles. Is that not the case? Do
you (or anyone on the list) know about the TU and what kind of curriculum it
offers?
J in PDX
Date: Thu, 3 Apr 2003 22:13:01 -0600
From: Bibi Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Preparing a homage: "academic tradition?"
Jay wrote: Does anyone on the list know about the TU and what kind of
curriculum it offers?
Go to Tango-L archive; on March 18th there is a posting "Universidad del
Tango de Buenos Aires" by Pichi that may answer some of your questions.
I attended a class one evening there, and agreed with Pichi that at first,
it was of great confusion to visitors.
BB (Chgo)
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 12:20:56 -0800
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Preparing a homage, part 2
Let me start by summarizing part 1. But it will not look like a summary at
all.
First. In my view primarily as a result of limited source material, the
overwhelming majority of which is trash anyway, over time a number of List
pundits have jumped to conclusions early on, then become in a sense hostages,
and make the rest of us hostages, to wrong headed ideas. I contend that this
does not eliminate progress, but it slows it down to a stupefying crawl. It
is perfectly OK for anyone to include me in the wrong headed pundit category,
but I am un-repentant. I just scanned through my past contributions, and a
hefty volume of drafts that never left my drawer. Wrong buttons aside, I find
very little I would want to adjust.
Second, I contend that a major backdrop for this is the chronic and malignant
neglect to which the study of this gem of popular culture has been consigned
by the nation/s that fashioned it. (Decorum continues to demand of
respectable citizens that they be at least slightly embarrassed about
Argentina being known for its tango.) There is precious little academic check
to the low brow "history of the tango" that has been engulfing us. I also
contend that what is going on has a lot to do with the idiosyncrasies of
"bourgeois" cultura Portenna. But that does not matter a whole lot now.
Third, I gave an example (but it is not just any example) of wrong headed
idea: that the Salida (walk to the traba) and the Resolution, or the Base,
are recent inventions of itinerant tango show folk, and in-authentic. And I
pointed out how that could have, and surely has, helped many swallow the
notion that the apilado dialect (or dialects, if you will) is the sole real
authentic social tango "of the 40's" to to-day. But it could not have been,
and it is not. It is classical salon (and some of its variants) FIRST; and
apilado UP TO 20 YEARS LATER, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. This kind of getting
it, not only wrong, but upside down, generation switched, making perhaps the
child beget the parent, and effect precede the cause, takes a very special
culture.
Forth, I mention in passing the very important notion that all contemporary
native tango is son of the classical tango del 40. In that sense there is a
single main idiom of tango, the lingua franca, the unifying canon; though
with many variants and at least one major dialect off to the side.
Last, I add parenthetically another remarkable case of implied historical
inversion, also across nearly two decades. How authentic (I do not mean good,
that is a different word) is Rudy in 1923 (or there about), or at the
narrative time reflected in the movie? Perhaps a lot more authentic than has
been assumed, though we will never be sure one way or the other. You know
why. But a lot of people who ought to know better speak and write as if they
know with great certainty that that stuff cannot be any kind of authentic
tango. They may be right; but how so? Why, does that look at all like the
authentic tango that we all know, and dance, and love? (OK, either school, or
both.) No. So Rudy is a fake. Maybe. But you cannot blame Rudy for being
asked to play and tango his role nearly 20 years too soon for him to be able
to satisfy these pundits. This too takes a very special culture. Me? I have a
hunch that he mimics, however badly, ways in use in 1923 or before, and I am
nearly certain that the issue cannot ever be resolved. But perhaps we should
stop repeating the common cliche'.
Now I should proceed with my homage, but I want to be even handed in the
bugaboo department. It is not only the apilado true believers that invent
tooth fairy tales. So what might "the other side" say? The more reasonable
"other side" does not say it is all the same. Of course, everybody is
entitled to say: OK, I see differences, but those are inconsequential
details. It is just not very smart to do that, particularly if you ply an
honest trade and your ways end up being branded "not kosher". The smarts have
been thus far on the apilado side. They have much better myths. It is no
smarter to deny the existence of that other dialect, or to say that it is
unschooled, unsophisticated, second rate stuff. People will try it, like it,
and tell you: your stuff is not authentic, not social; it is fake, and it is
anti-social. Good bye. It is a touch dishonest to advertise (as it is some
times done): I do that too, I can teach you that too (though I never ever
dance it). See, I do "close embrace". (This does not exactly work in
non-English speaking markets, but there is always a way.) So your students'
apilado dancing feels like a locomotive with square wheels for a while. No
big deal. But it is not smart, in the long run. Not good for tango, and not
good for those many who teach the most pristine classical ways.
So you do not deny, nor outright dismiss, the alternative. You just do not
believe the ideology. That is good. But where, pray tell, does this apilado
stuff come from? (We are not natives, so we insist on noticing these BIG
differences.) Answers found on this List and elsewhere, starting with the
funniest: Daniel Trenner invented it as a marketing ploy upon his return from
BAs in 1994 or so; no, no, it was Susana Miller who invented it, and sold the
goods for profit; no, no, apilado is simply Tete''s personal style, packaged
and sold to the multitudes by Susana Miller, for profit. Shall I continue?
Brigitte Winkler, of Berlin, who I am inclined to believe was the actual
pioneer teacher and popularizer of the apilado, seems to have escaped thus
far such accusations of artistic fraud.
WARNING: NEXT THREE PARAGRAPHS ARE SPOOFS, NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY!
Now let us take up the last, and least absurd, "theory": Tete' via Susana
Miller. How could this have gone? At some point after the tango gradually
"resurrected" in the mid 1980's, there is Tete' in the milongas doing his
thing with his partner from time immemorial. He is the only one. (Actually
this part is probably true, no one else danced like him for quite a while.)
What are the others doing? Well, regular tango. This went on and on, until
Susana Miller got into the act. She liked what Tete' was doing, and learnt
it, more or less. Maybe she filmed him, and played back in slow motion. But
she did not do a good job at all, since her way is so sharply different from
Tete''s. Then she opened an academy. To her great surprise, she was flooded
with requests by men circa Tete''s age. They wanted to dance like Tete'.
Furthermore, some of these men, due to some magic related to their age,
became extremely good, very fast. The best number about 15 at this time :)
;). So Susana Miller trained the viejos milongueros sometime in the 1980's,
and of course lots of other men and women since then. It is all her doing.
WARNING: NEXT TWO PARAGRAPHS ARE SPOOFS, NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY!
You don't believe this? OK, let us try another tack. First the older guys
dancing around Tete' looked at him and decided: we want to dance like this,
it is so cool. So they brought in their camcorders, since Tete' would not
teach them (he wanted to protect his exclusive). These men did not do a good
job, since they all ended up dancing more like each other than like Tete',
always the odd man out. But about 15 of them, due to some magic, etc, etc.
Susana Miller came later. She taught the masses, mostly the younger people.
WARNING: NEXT PARAGRAPH IS A SPOOF, NOT TO BE TAKEN LITERALLY!
OK, so you still do not believe me. Fine. The thing really happened in the
late 50's to about 1964. (Around 1964 it was lights out for old fashioned
partner dancing most everywhere, as the twist dug the grave, and "free style"
lowered the casket. This part is quite true.) There was Tete' dancing in the
milongas with Mari'a. He danced rock-and-roll (swing) too. Guys of Tete''s
age around him looked at him and decided: we want to dance like this, etc,
etc. So apilado was born. It was called Tete's way everywhere, though it was
not much like his way at all. Twenty some years later, Susana Miller learns
about this Tete''s way. She thinks: this is cool, let me learn it, package
it, rename it, sell it to the masses, and make a bundle. Wisely, she did not
go to Tete' to learn it, but to other "old guys". She did not want to sell
the way Tete' dances. No, she wanted to sell the thing called Tete''s way.
Enough of this. It is all obvious nonsense. Apilado was a shared way of
dancing the tango, not any single person's "style". The carriers of the
tradition are men and women who were mostly in their late teens to mid
twenties some time in the period from the late 50's to the mid sixties. Tete'
may very well have been one of them, but I keep hearing that no one remembers
him from those rock-and-roll years. Stylistically, he is not the head of a
school. He is the odd man out.
I guess I have to leave that homage for another day.
Cheers,
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 16:37:12 -0600
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Preparing a homage, part 2
Carlos and friends,
> Last, I add parenthetically another remarkable case of implied historical
> inversion, also across nearly two decades. How authentic (I do not mean
> good,
> that is a different word) is Rudy in 1923 (or there about), or at the
> narrative time reflected in the movie? Perhaps a lot more authentic than
> has
> been assumed, though we will never be sure one way or the other.
Concerning your homage, I have two parenthetical comments to interject.
First:
Although I'm not a scholar in such matters, please understand that it is
common and very often justified to be skeptical of the provenance or
accuracy of ANYTHING that came out of Hollywood in that age. Just as today,
the most one can hope for from Hollywood is a moment's entertainment.
Rudolph V. was an entertainer and I think of his characters as prototypes
for many later offerings - Lawrence of Arabia, James Bond, Men in Black,
etc., etc. Argue the details elsewhere, the point is: the 'hype' IS the
substance. With something so peripheral to Rudy's characterizations as *a
foreign dance*, drawing conclusions seems fruitless.
Second:
In 1923 and thenabouts, another great national folk art was also in it's
childhood. NOT tango, but contemporaneous with it, JAZZ had busted out of
New Orleans brothels (etc.) and was being heard in public! In his
remarkable 10 part documentary entitled 'Jazz', (https://www.pbs.org/jazz/)
Ken Burns included some historical film footage of social dance in the
burgeoning dance halls of (I believe it was) New Orleans. Silent footage,
one could only imagine that the music being played was a form of 'ragtime'.
I was surprised by what I saw. I happened to be with one of BA's best
studied 'second generation' tangueras and a top interpreter of the
follower's role in tango. She was surprised too! There was a packed
ballroom full of USA adults from the roaring twenties walkin' 'n rockin' in
CLOSE EMBRACE!! You could have dubbed milonga music into the film and
believed it was from Argentina! Is that any accident? I doubt it. My
personal interpretation is that the embrace *per se* is not a reliable nor
very important parameter in defining or categorizing a dance for two.
Reluctant though I am to be a pundit on this list, that is one of the
observations that I would like to contribute. Yes, the embrace is an
obvious obstacle to the neophyte and the movement should be adjusted to
accommodate the embrace, but in each dance there are other more essential
defining features.
Does that qualify me for a photocopied diploma from the Correspondence
Division of the Universidad del Tango de Buenos Aires? ;-) (Please mail it
to the address below.)
Frank - Mpls.
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D.
University of Minnesota
612-625-6441
Department of Neuroscience
6-145 Jackson Hall
321 Church Street SE
Minneapolis, MN 55455
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 15:59:29 -0800
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Preparing a homage, part 2 FGW
--- "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@mail.ahc.umn.edu> wrote:
> First: (..) With something so peripheral to Rudy's characterizations as *a
foreign dance*, drawing conclusions seems fruitless. <
My point was precisely about drawing conclusions (even true ones, I might
add) from a point of view lacking historicity and a sense of time, a
chronological framework. If Valentino's performance evaluation were the point
I would start by saying: what obligation does he, or his producers, etc.,
etc., of being authentic? If anything, that would be an obligation for
Argentines. Yet one keeps encountering this attitude: how pitiful, this
"Holywood tango" (of course, what do you expect), what a terrible disservice.
If we could go to Argentine sources to find out how people danced the tango
in 1923 (I would settle for "any year"), Valentino's "influence" would not be
such unmitigated evil. In fact, it would not be worth mentioning; yet it is
mentioned constantly, and decried, in popularizations of the "history" of the
tango.
By the way, same for "American tango" and the like.
> Second: (...) some historical film footage of social dance in the
burgeoning dance halls of (I believe it was) New Orleans. <
This is what I find sorely missing when I try to get a feeling for the
evolution of the dance. Any news on this would be wonderful.
> My personal interpretation is that the embrace *per se* is not a reliable
nor very important parameter in defining or categorizing a dance for two. <
If "the embrace" is taken to mean "how close an embrace" I have made just
about this same point repeatedly over several years, including on this List.
I even avoid the label "close embrace" like the plague. (Apilado is not just
close, as anybody who dances apilado can explain, and I believe Robin did,
just recently.) But the apilado parameter (apilado=yes, NOT close=aLot) is
surely insufficient to characterize the dialect. My shortest definition would
be: an adaptation of the classical salon idiom (the one with the
cross-salida, back ochos, giros with grape vine and sacadas, etc.) to a solid
embrace. Not great, but pretty short. Now, that does not define the way in
which the woman takes a back ocho or executes a grape-vine turn, which I
believe are still pretty important "parameters" in defining the dialect. And
there is more.
Cheers,
Date: Sat, 5 Apr 2003 07:33:06 -0800
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Preparing a homage, the short of it
Before anybody thinks that the homage I have in mind is to some dead actor,
or something, I will say now that it is to Daniel Trenner, for having done
assuredly more than anyone else in the world to afford us (largely while
trying to do primarily something else) fairly extensive documentation of the
practice of tango, and the approaches to tango, by a hefty number of
significant native cultores of the beautiful dance, from a variety of
"niches".
More could have been done before, can still be done, and should be done by
agencies with more resources and a greater obligation. Maybe it is even being
done, unbeknownst to me, and in such a way as to make it widely available.
Well, that would be great. First hand evidence of the life line / time line
of tango dies one year at a time every year. I think it is great to have the
feet and the memories of the "curators of tango" recorded for the future. (I
do not mean dumb tabloid-style "personal" "probing" interviews, I mean
informative documentation and informant-style interviews done by competent
interviewers.)
There is probably a lot that deserves being recorded and is not. But, for the
first time, people who want to know how it is, and how it was not long ago,
do not need (not exclusively, at least) to resort to wild guesses and
flights of a drunken imagination; or live in the delusion that because they
have seen a few trees from 30 cm away, they know the forest; or have to rely
on some oracle or one-eyed guru for everything.
I think it is no exageration to say that this has historic significance, and
will be eventually seen as such in retrospect. By now Daniel Trenner is not
the only significant source of these kinds of documents, will eventually not
be the best or most comprehensive, I hope, and he was not the very first. But
in this area I think kudos are due to him and his co-workers more than anyone
else I can think of. If I am wrong, by all means, let me know.
I might add that I do not know Daniel Trenner in any other capacity. I have
not really met him (saw him once in a studio), or conversed with him, never
saw him dance socially or perform, never saw a recording of his dancing
(other than demonstration tidbits in his tapings of master classes), never
attended a class by him, could not have read more than a handful of pages
that he has written, and the only business I conducted with him or know about
is that I bought a number of his videos. So, if anyone has complaints not in
the matter of his tapings of the masters, I am the wrong guy to disagree
with.
Now, the connection between the homage and its preparations may or may not be
further clarified. Anyway, either can be seen as just a pretext for the
other.
Cheers,
PS - I hope that the "Middle aged men on stage" show reported on by J.Kenyon,
or something close, becomes eventually available on video. I would very much
want it even if I were able to attend the show. I would wear the magnetic
coating out watching it over and over.
A possible secondary benefit. Pupi is in there, presumably. He started as a
social dancer in 1950 or a little later, and never became a stage dancer
proper. I am sure there are others like him. Others will be your true-to-type
"viejos milongueros". (Pupi isn't, I asure you, and he calls himself a tango
dancer.) Perhaps people who are not shy about recognizing in full the
wonderful variety of tango will be helped recognize it and, above all, enjoy
it. (What a pitty.)
PPS - While writing the foregoing paragraphs, a wonderful Pupi anectdote,
related to me by Jose' Garo'falo, popped into my mind. Here is my best
recollection. Attempts to get Pupi on stage, maybe perhaps as participant in
group numbers, ran into the difficulty (I am sure, among others) that he
cannot do exactly the same thing twice. Naturally, counting was used, as
always, to ensure co-ordination. Pupi tries for a while, then blurts out:
what do you mean, 1-2-3, 1-2-3! I am a tango dancer, not a mathematician.
Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 08:33:35 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Preparing a homage, the short of it
Carlos wrote:
>... Daniel Trenner, for having done assuredly more than anyone else
>in the world to afford us (largely while trying to do primarily
>something else) fairly extensive documentation of the practice of
>tango, and the approaches to tango, by a hefty number of significant
>native cultores of the beautiful dance, from a variety of "niches".
In having watched a great number of the "instructional" videos that Daniel
has produced, I would have to agree that Daniel has provided fairly
extensive documentation of the practice of Argentine tango. Looking at
these videos, I would have to disagree with the notion that Daniel did not
have an intent to document the practice of tango. That may even be his
primary intent for some of these videos--even though he has been selling
the videos as instructional. Many of the videos have conscious elements
of documentation, and are about the tango of a particular individual who
is a social dancer. In the videos of most of the old milongueros, Daniel
provides interviews where the dancers discusses what tango was like when
they first began, what it was/is like to dance at milongas, etc. Some of
the videos succeed more greatly in the documentation of individual styles
and an individual history of Argentine tango than they do in providing
instruction.
One video that I particularly like from the documentary perspective is
Victor Romero and Norma Galla. For a review see my video reviews
<https://www.tejastango.com/video_resources.html#Romero/Galla_orillero>.
Daniel also captured Juan Bruno, Pupi Castello, Maria and Rudolfo Cieri,
Petaca, El Brujo, Tete, the Puglieses, Gustavo Naveira, Pocho Pizarro and
Stella Barba, Raul Bravo, Chicho and numerous others. Al and Barbara
Garvey have captured Lampazo, Nito and Elba and Orlando Paiva for us. Solo
tango has given us Pepito Avelleneda, and Miguel Zotto has provided some
footage of Antonio Todaro.
The interesting thing about these videos taken together is that they
provide vivid documentation of the wide variety of individual styles of
tango. There is really no such thing as THE milonguero-style tango; there
are many styles of tango danced by milongueros and others. These videos
also show a sufficient continuum of individual styles that it is clear
that the milonguero/stage dichotomy that some would have us believe is
false. There are differences between social and stage dancing, but these
differences do not break easily and conveniently as milonguero/stage at
all. Many of today's stage dancers studied with Antonio Todaro, but the
footage of Todaro that Miguel Zotto has included in his documentary of
Tango X 2 makes it quite difficult to separate Todaro from other social
dancers of his era, as represented on the numerous videos of the older
dancers.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 03:05:04 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Preparing a homage, the short of it (SPB)
Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG> hath said
> Looking at these videos, I would have to disagree with the notion that
Daniel did not have an intent to document the practice of tango. <
I believe the same. I should have said "while appearing to be trying to do
something else". What I had in mind, and I think I succeeded in expressing
was this: these are not just [any] instructional videos; there is something
else very important, in fact something of historical proportions, going on.
The majority of the videos does however have an instructional format, and
this is perhaps the most obvious aspect to most people. Without questioning
the utilitarian side of the enterprise, I wanted to add: ah, but there is
this archivist side to Trenner's team, and what they accomplished (largely
unprecedented, I believe) was to reverse in part a characteristic neglect
that has been a constant over 120 years of history. I am sure that the
archives of Solo Tango (and perhaps others) are not negligible; but, in their
immensity, I do not know that they are capable of documenting the world of
tango dancing as well as Trenner's small enterprise; and, more importantly,
they are not available to the public. I cannot consult that documentation
from here.
By the way, the instructional aspect is nothing to scoff at, either. I have
had very good teachers, and lots of teachers, natives prominently included.
Whatever my shortcomings allowed me would not have fully materialized for all
a'that without Trenner's documentation. I do not have time to list all the
reasons.
> In the videos of most of the old milongueros, Daniel provides interviews
where the dancers discusses what tango was like when they first began, what
it was/is like to dance at milongas, etc. <
Actually, the interviews are in my view the Achilles heel of Trenner's
archives. I got a tiny amount of not too reliable information from them, but
they are, by and large, useless. The Trenner team must have felt the same,
because the interviews are only in a few of the earlier videos, and the
feature was abandoned early on. To interview for the purpose of documenting
the facts (and, OK, no problem with adding the feelings and personal
reactions in general) is not a spontaneous art, it is a demanding craft. The
great majority of "probing" interviews one finds in the media do not probe
anything.
This goes double for interviews of tango dancers, as far as what I have been
able to find, current, or from the earlier years of the tango resurrection
and before. Useless pap, incapable of painting a portrait of any reality.
Recently I have found some interviews (do not have references, sorry) that
break this mold, and are truly fascinating. Not that the interviewers are any
better; but some tango people are starting to talk universal sense instead of
... well, can't say. Among others, I remember Eduardo & Gloria Arquimbau and
Carlos Copello - Alicia Monti, the former more informative because Eduardo
can be placed in the scene shortly after the year of 1950. Anyway, to hear
Eduardo talk about the tango "scene" after 1950 (i.e., that which he saw with
his own eyes) is a unique treat that no one who wants to know can afford to
miss. (What about before 1950? Well ...) Oh, and one more (!): Susana Miller.
> Victor Romero and Norma Galla. (...) Juan Bruno, Pupi Castello, Maria and
Rudolfo Cieri, Petaca, El Brujo, Tete, the Puglieses, Gustavo Naveira, Pocho
Pizarro and Stella Barba, Raul Bravo, Chicho and numerous others. Al and
Barbara Garvey have captured Lampazo, Nito and Elba and Orlando Paiva for us.
Solo tango has given us Pepito Avelleneda, and Miguel Zotto has provided some
footage of Antonio Todaro. <
Since the Trenner Archives are not very extensive on the apilado tradition,
let me take Tommy O'Connor out of the etc. I would like to see a lot more
documentation of individual styles within the apilado dialect.
> These videos also show a sufficient continuum of individual styles that it
is clear that the milonguero/stage dichotomy that some would have us believe
is false. <
Could not agree more. But these are cuentos largos.
Cheers,
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 17:35:09 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Preparing a homage, the short of it
Carlos wrote:
>... Daniel Trenner, for having done assuredly more than anyone else
>in the world to afford us (largely while trying to do primarily
>something else) fairly extensive documentation of the practice of
>tango, and the approaches to tango, by a hefty number of significant
>native cultores of the beautiful dance, from a variety of "niches".
In having watched a great number of the "instructional" videos that Daniel
has produced, I would have to agree that Daniel has provided fairly
extensive documentation of the practice of Argentine tango. Looking at
these videos, I would have to disagree with the notion that Daniel did not
have an intent to document the practice of tango. That may even be his
primary intent for some of these videos--even though he has been selling
the videos as instructional. Many of the videos have conscious elements
of documentation, and are about the tango of a particular individual who
is a social dancer. In the videos of most of the old milongueros, Daniel
provides interviews where the dancers discusses what tango was like when
they first began, what it was/is like to dance at milongas, etc. Some of
the videos succeed more greatly in the documentation of individual styles
and an individual history of Argentine tango than they do in providing
instruction.
One video that I particularly like from the documentary perspective is
Victor Romero and Norma Galla. For a review see my video reviews <https://www.tejastango.com/video_resources.html#Romero/Galla_orillero>. Daniel also captured Juan Bruno, Pupi Castello, Maria and Rudolfo
Cieri, Petaca, El Brujo, Tete, the Puglieses, Gustavo Naveira, Pocho
Pizarro and Stella Barba, Raul Bravo, Chicho and numerous others. Al and
Barbara Garvey have captured Lampazo, Nito and Elba and Orlando Paiva for
us. Solo tango has given us Pepito Avelleneda, and Miguel Zotto has
provided some footage of Antonio Todaro.
The interesting thing about these videos taken together is that they
provide vivid documentation of the wide variety of individual styles of
tango. There is really no such thing as THE milonguero-style tango; there
are many styles of tango danced by milongueros and others. These videos
also show a sufficient continuum of individual styles that it is clear
that the milonguero/stage dichotomy that some would have us believe is
false. There are differences between social and stage dancing, but these
differences do not break easily and conveniently as milonguero/stage at
all. Many of today's stage dancers studied with Antonio Todaro, but the
footage of Todaro that Miguel Zotto has included in his documentary of
Tango X 2 makes it quite difficult to separate Todaro from other social
dancers of his era, as represented on the numerous videos of the older
dancers.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
