404 Tango and Culture
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 12:46:48 EST
From: "Lisa E. Battan" <Battanle@AOL.COM>
Subject: Tango and Culture
Hi All,
Today the New York Times contains a very interesting article today about
Argentina entitled "Argentina Paying Heavily for Squandering Blessings."
https://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/08/international/americas/08ARGE.html
I won't comment about whether the article is right/wrong, accurate or not,
just that it is interesting. (Besides the inevitable, but perhaps not
lamentable, fact that I am not and never will be Argentine, so what basis do
I have to judge?) The article is painted in broad strokes (naturally, given
its short length), but it hints at some of the cultural, psychological and
historical sources of the current crisis in Argentina. (And lists other
sources which might be interesting.)
I also find trying to find a greater understanding of Argentine culture to be
interesting in the sense of trying to understand how the culture is expressed
in tango. This of course raises the inevitable question of what I am
expressing in tango given the fact that I am American? The next question
arises, what can I or Argentines or Lithuanians or whichever other culture,
express in the dance which is universal to the human experience? I won't try
to answer those questions here. I have to do some other things today besides
writing to you all. And, maybe the question is more interesting than the
answer.
Anyway, I watched an Argentine master teacher teach classes the last two days
to beginning and intermediate students in Denver and Boulder. The focus was
skills for social dancing (like staying on the outside of the floor,
maintaining a consistent space between couples, learning figures for staying
in one place while waiting for the couple in front to move on, moving in a
natural, comfortable way, etc.) Not having a culture of crowded dance floors
the teacher needed to articulate many of these concepts for students who are
used to less crowded floors or dances such as swing which don't travel.
Then there are the more difficult issues to teach. How to stay grounded or
how not to rush (especially in milonga) or how to avoid manipulating a
partner with your arms or how to stay connected or how to dance close.
Certainly some of these have a cultural aspect. They certainly have a
psychological aspect. Many of you have probably the sense of alarm grow on
an American newcomer's face when his/her partner wanted to dance chest to
chest? Or, to watch a teacher encourage students to come close only to have
them drift apart a few seconds later into a distance at which they are more
comfortable?
It seems to me, that the more that the cultural/psychological aspects are
articulated, the more success there will be for teacher and student.
Or, (this was not what I have watched the past couple of days, but what I
have seen before) who hasn't watched a teacher enthusiastically (and with
lots of positive reinforcement) instruct a group of relatively new,
relatively technically unskilled students in a figure which is only suitable
for the stage, only to have the students think they learned something only to
find out later that they have learned nothing which they can use on the
social dance floor or nothing about dancing? Why aren't students more
critical about this type of teaching? Do we have no cultural basis from
which to judge what we are taught?
I better stop rambling now.
Saludos,
Lisa E. Battan
Lisa E. Battan, P.C.
2235 Broadway
Boulder, CO 80302
phone: (303) 444-8668
fax: (303) 449-2656
www.lawyers.com/battan
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:10:49 -0500
From: Natarajan Balasundara <rajan@EMC.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango and Culture
"Lisa E. Battan" wrote:
> The article is painted in broad strokes (naturally, given
> its short length), but it hints at some of the cultural, psychological and
> historical sources of the current crisis in Argentina. (And lists other
> sources which might be interesting.)
The finns are supposed to think about many of life's
problems in terms of tango metaphors. So, I guess, they
quite deeply into tango.
However, they do not seem to be as deeply in trouble.
In fact, they are quite up there in an enviable postion
depsite having had the added disadvantage of having
been in soviet shadows...just adding one more thought
to the problem pot that is getting stirred -- for anyone
who is going to propose a complete solution to all
of argentina's problems(where else but on tango-l!)
to consider ;-)
rajan.
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:28:53 -0500
From: Tanguero Chino <tanguerochino@NETSCAPE.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango and Culture
"Lisa E. Battan" <Battanle@AOL.COM> wrote:
>... the students think they learned something only to
>find out later that they have learned nothing which they can use on the
>social dance floor or nothing about dancing? Why aren't students more
>critical about this type of teaching? ....
As dancers who know something about the skills needed in social dancing, we can look at these instructions and know that they are suitable only for the stage. However, as someone who is just starting tango, the new students will not know the difference. This is true even in Argentina and Uruguay.
I started learning tango in Uruguay, which is the other birth-place of tango. My first teacher taught us figures right from the beginning. He never mentioned leading, frame, the line of dance, and most importantly, communication. As a total beginner who had no idea about the social dance aspect of tango, I did not know that something was wrong. I did not learn that something was wrong until I started going to other teachers. Even then, I did not know until I started dancing with someone other than my regular partner that there are many things that I had not known.
It is great that the "new generation" of teachers are starting with teaching the basics and about leading and following. However, the older generation of teachers are still around, and anyone learning from these teachers will not know that something is wrong until they go to other teachers or get onto a social dance floor.
Tanguero Chino
--
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 14:32:35 EST
From: "Lisa E. Battan" <Battanle@AOL.COM>
Subject: Teaching Styles (Was Tango and Culture)
In a message dated 2/8/02 11:32:55 AM Mountain Standard Time,
tanguerochino@NETSCAPE.NET writes:
> As dancers who know something about the skills needed in social dancing, we
> can look at these instructions and know that they are suitable only for the
> stage. However, as someone who is just starting tango, the new students
> will not know the difference. This is true even in Argentina and Uruguay.
>
>
Probably many of us have had the experience of el senor tanguerochino.
I suppose that, for many of us who start taking tango lessons without knowing
much about tango, the choice of our first teacher is an accident. We have a
recommendation, we go with a friend, we find ourselves in some situation,
etc. I happened to take a tango class because the studio was around the
corner from my office and I wanted to take a break from work. Four and half
years later, here I am.
Sometimes the teaching style or the style of dance fits the student and they
stay. Sometimes it doesn't fit and they may drift or go to another teaching
style which does fit. Sometimes maybe they quit thinking that, if this is
tango, it doesn't interest me. They don't try any other classes or styles.
My first class was great. (Thanks Tom Stermitz and Nina P.!) However, since
that time I have taken classes with people whose style of dance or method of
teaching doesn't interest me now. Fine people, just not what I want.
Eventually I have found the teachers who interest me.
So, how can you move people along so that they can make informed choices (for
them)? Articulate WHY you may be teaching a certain concept? Encourage them
to change partners in class? Encourage them to dance with other people in
your community? Encourage them to dance in Buenos Aires or other places?
There are some things that teachers and/or community organizers can do.
But, there are some things students can do. Recently someone told me that he
would not take a private with a certain teacher because he thought that the
teacher would be hard on him. I explained that, from my point of view, the
student has control over the lesson. You have the ability to control the
subject matter of the lesson (if you want. Sometimes it might be that you
get a golden nugget from a class which you did not anticipate when you
began). You have the ability to discourage unwanted behavior from the
teacher. You have the right to be treated respectfully. You can ask the
teacher why they teach a particular thing. You can ask the teacher to
articulate their style of dancing. You can ask them to articulate their
style of teaching. You can ask the teacher to outline reasonably goals, etc.
There is a lot that students can do from the very beginning.
Anyway, I think the students, on some level, needs to be responsible for what
they learn and to be critical about that, whether they are beginners or not.
Lisa E. Battan
Lisa E. Battan, P.C.
2235 Broadway
Boulder, CO 80302
phone: (303) 444-8668
fax: (303) 449-2656
www.lawyers.com/battan
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 19:39:59 -0700
From: Madhav Apte <mapte@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango and Culture
I am glad my good friend Lisa posted a link to this article; I had read it and
had thought about
putting it on the list (the link, that is) but forgot.
Anyway: I find fascinating the concept that an understanding of the (Argentine)
culture
might be required to be able to express oneself in Tango. When I look deeply
into what is actually
felt /thought and perceived/seen by me when I dance, what I find is that it has
less and less
to do with my knowledge of (Argentine) culture and more and more to do with the
moment at hand.
This is a good progression, imo.
I do respect and admire various aspects of Argentine culture, and knowing
something about it probably
enhances my understanding of the dance. When I get on the floor, though, who can
I be other than me?
Haven't multiple Argentine teachers said: "you dance who you are"?
Finally: I looked up the definition of "culture".
Webster Ency Unab: 1. the quality in a person or society that arises from an
interest in and
acquaintance with what is generally regarded as excellent in arts, letters,
manners, scholarly
pursuits, etc."
While the "etc" could be a broad brush, we can take comfort in knowing that our
own
practice of the excellent arts results in creating a culture we can call our own.
We could say, for example, that there is a "Denver Tango Culture". Probably it
has 98%
content borrowed from "other cultures". But I do think there is also our own
contribution.
Just a thought.
---
On the second (seemingly unrelated) point that Lisa raises - I fully agree and
want to encourage
everyone on the list to realize, if they have't already, that they have a
contribution (besides the
monetary ;-) ) to and some control of their private classes. I think it is a
great idea and I thank
Lisa for bringing it up.
Best regards,
Madhav
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 10:53:03 -0600
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Tango and Culture
Madhav wrote:
>I am glad my good friend Lisa posted a link to this article
"Argentina Paying Heavily for Squandering Blessings"
<https://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/08/international/americas/08ARGE.html>
>Anyway: I find fascinating the concept that an understanding of the
>(Argentine) culture might be required to be able to express oneself
>in Tango. When I look deeply into what is actually felt/thought and
>perceived/seen by me when I dance, what I find is that it has less and
>less to do with my knowledge of (Argentine) culture and more and more
>to do with the moment at hand. This is a good progression, imo.
IMO too. Learning some about the culture may help one with certain aspects
of the dance, but as we all know through its international reach, tango
reaches beyond national boundaries because the music and dance has a
universal appeal.
Having met many Argentines through tango, I must also express some
skepticism of the frequently promoted premise that the recurring economic
and political problems in Argentina are the consequence of a flawed
national character. They are the consequence of flawed economic and
political system that has its roots in Argentina's history--not the
Argentine national character.
The continuing inability of the government to live within its means is a
contributing factor for the current and past economic problems in
Argentina. But the inability of the government to live within its means is
not surprising. Argentina is a country known for poltical and econmic
corruption. Government payments help support corruption, and many
Argentines organize their economic affairs to illegally avoid paying taxes,
sometimes justifying their actions as reducing the support for a corrupt
system.
Some may argue that the Argentines have squandered opportunities and are
getting what they deserve because they are a nation of corrupt people who
repeatedly elect corrupt governments that continue to make Argentina an
international basket case. But, these arguments dispassionately dimiss the
resulting suffering as being the deserved consequence of human actions.
They also for granted a particular answer to the old question, "Which came
first, the chicken or the egg?"
Survival in a country that is rife with corruption requires that citizens
develop skills that work well within a corrupt system. If police are not
paid enough, they will take bribes and work scams. Once individual
citizens develop the skills to survive in a corrupt system, however, they
will resist its change. Changing the system threatens their survival
because it obviates the skills they have developed to work the system.
Individuals may recognize that the end of corruption will improve things
for their grandchildren's generation, if the individuals and their children
are able to survive.
Individuals are also likely to recognize their own individual actions to
end corrupt behavior will not eliminate a corrupt system. A person who
fails to act corruptly in a corrupt system is simply reduced to poverty.
The sum total of individual corrupt actions poses a dilemma for a society.
Each person in the society would be better off if all members of the
society no longer act corruptly. Nonetheless, each member of the society
has plenty of reason to distrust and disrepect his fellow citizens and
recognizes that corrupt behavior will serve himself well whether or not the
society is corrupt.
Some might it convenient to compare Argentina to a drug addict who refuses
to quit and is unwilling to accept the consequences of his actions. But a
country that is in the throes of corruption is not exactly like a drug
addict. It is more like a group of drug addicts, none of whom are not
allowed to quit using drugs unless they all quit at once. To fully quit,
individuals are forced to leave the country or accept a certain amount of
poverty for themselves and their children.
IMO, the Argentine national character is better expressed in tango--a music
and dance that is rich and deep its cultural heritage and allows individual
expression from the mind, heart and soul... The communication that is
possible in this dance tells no lies... As Nito Garcia once said, and many
now repeat, "Bailas como sos." (You dance who you are.)
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 23:35:37 -0700
From: Madhav Apte <mapte@POBOX.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango and Culture
Stephen Brown wrote:
> Madhav wrote:
>
> >I am glad my good friend Lisa posted a link to this article
> "Argentina Paying Heavily for Squandering Blessings"
> <https://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/08/international/americas/08ARGE.html>
>
> <stuff deleted>
>
> Having met many Argentines through tango, I must also express some
> skepticism of the frequently promoted premise that the recurring economic
> and political problems in Argentina are the consequence of a flawed
> national character. They are the consequence of flawed economic and
> political system that has its roots in Argentina's history--not the
> Argentine national character.
(Thanks Steve for your view on the current situation.)
I thought I chose my words carefully. But apparently, not carefully enough!
Just to set the record straight. I was glad to have the article
quoted, so others might read it. This does not mean I agreed with or
somehow supported the entire article. It was just another data point that I
thought
the readers might find useful. (I am pretty sure Lisa thought the same way).
Most important, I would never draw a link between the character of the
Argentine
people and their current situation. That would be highly inappropriate.
I know several Argentines and by now have heard several stories about the
current
situation in Argentina. I am totally sympathetic to their situation. I still
don't know enough
about their history or about their current crisis to be able to discuss the
current situation
in a productive manner, and am certainly not about to ez-chair-quarterback it
from here,
and definitely not in a public forum and not on this list (because the subject
is somewhat
inappropriate). (And this is no reflection on Steve's article either - I
thought he made useful
points.)
Best regards,
Madhav
Sent: Tuesday, February 12, 2002 1:35 AM
Subject: Re: Tango and Culture
> Stephen Brown wrote:
>
>
> > Madhav wrote:
> >
> > >I am glad my good friend Lisa posted a link to this article
> > "Argentina Paying Heavily for Squandering Blessings"
> > <https://www.nytimes.com/2002/02/08/international/americas/08ARGE.html>
> >
> > <stuff deleted>
> >
> > Having met many Argentines through tango, I must also express some
> > skepticism of the frequently promoted premise that the recurring
economic
> > and political problems in Argentina are the consequence of a flawed
> > national character. They are the consequence of flawed economic and
> > political system that has its roots in Argentina's history--not the
> > Argentine national character.
>
> (Thanks Steve for your view on the current situation.)
>
> I thought I chose my words carefully. But apparently, not carefully
enough!
>
> Just to set the record straight. I was glad to have the article
> quoted, so others might read it. This does not mean I agreed with or
> somehow supported the entire article. It was just another data point that
I
> thought
> the readers might find useful. (I am pretty sure Lisa thought the same
way).
> Most important, I would never draw a link between the character of the
> Argentine
> people and their current situation. That would be highly inappropriate.
>
> I know several Argentines and by now have heard several stories about the
> current
> situation in Argentina. I am totally sympathetic to their situation. I
still
> don't know enough
> about their history or about their current crisis to be able to discuss
the
> current situation
> in a productive manner, and am certainly not about to ez-chair-quarterback
it
> from here,
> and definitely not in a public forum and not on this list (because the
subject
> is somewhat
> inappropriate). (And this is no reflection on Steve's article either - I
> thought he made useful
> points.)
>
> Best regards,
> Madhav
>
