Tango Dialects.


3211 Tango Dialects.	ARTICLE INDEX
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 09:13:47 -0800 From: Malcolm Spittler <malcolm.spittler@GMAIL.COM> Subject: Tango Dialects. I just got an e-mail from a friend who is spending some time in Spain, and was at a Milonga last night where she was corrected and told that when the man leads an ocho, she should do three, because they always come in sets of three. This is fascinating to me. I do not know these sorts of conventions because all of my teachers have been interested in only dancing steps that the leader actively asks for. I also know that there exists for some the convention that walking two steps on the left of the follower (inside track) automatically leads a cross. What other conventions exist like this, and where are they danced? It seems very geographically specific. Kind of like tango dialects. Malcolm From Portland Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:18:33 -0500 From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects. Malcolm: I don't consider leading three ochos a convention. That's a preference. Ochos don't have to come in sets of three. It sounds like the leader was taught to dance a certain way -- and only that way. A woman shouldn't anticipate so if the man doesn't lead three ochos, she shouldn't do three ochos. Next, the convention that walking two steps to the left of the follower automatically leads to a cross. There are two schools of thought. The first is the woman is responsible for crossing on her own and the second is the man leads the cross. The woman should always be in front of the man (lined up buttons to buttons). When the man steps outside the woman (on her right), she is no longer in front of him. She crosses to back in front of the man, NOT because the man took two steps outside the woman. Michael Ditkoff Almost ready to sign up for the Denver Tango Festival I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango!! > I just got an e-mail from a friend who is spending some time in Spain, > and was at a Milonga last night where she was corrected and told that > when the man leads an ocho, she should do three, because they always > come in sets of three. I also know > that there exists for some the convention that walking two steps on > the left of the follower (inside track) automatically leads a cross. > > What other conventions exist like this, and where are they danced? It > seems very geographically specific. Kind of like tango dialects. > > Malcolm > From Portland > Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:47:15 -0600 From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects Malcolm wrote: >What other conventions exist like this, and where are they danced? It >seems very geographically specific. Kind of like tango dialects. Tango dialects can be fairly common, but I think they vary more by teacher rather than geography. For instance, some teachers will teach their students to use a gancho after a CCW molinete that is ended with a freno. Some teachers will always follow a boleo with an amague and a drop into the cross. Executing three ochos whenever an ocho is led seems like a teacher specific idea. There is some controversy about what constitutes leading a cross. Some people maintain that the cross is led by the man walking on the woman's right side a prescribed number of her steps. Some people say such a rule makes the cross an automatic step--particularly if the man's body motion does accomodate or lead a cross. A small minority will go further and argue that the cross should be led by the man's right arm. Perhaps, geographic dialects might exist if one particular teacher taught most of the people in a city/region. With modern travel, however, it is hard to imagine these dialects persisting regionally. --Steve (de Tejas) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 11:43:13 -0800 From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects Oh, those tango teachers! In 20 year of modern tango development they still do not know how to explain lead to cross - one of the most basic elements in tango! We still have a discussion here if cross is lead or not!!! It is not! It is a convention. A woman must cross if the man steps outside. However, it can be lead. All good leaders lead the cross. It is lead exclusively with rotation of the mans body to left. No arms! This is the only way the cross is lead. Igor Polk Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:08:31 -0800 From: Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects The cross..(fift position or colecting in front )in the female role is a learned step.And , as learned ,there is not lead for it.She will execute it following the normal way to do the 8 count basic. In tango,the man does not walk outside the female more than 1 step forward.The number 3,if you need to dance counting will be toward your partner and giving extra space from your chess to allow her to colect in cross. My regards. Daniel PS:My own opinion made from many coments from old milongueros! > > There is some controversy about what constitutes > leading a cross. > Some people maintain that the cross is led by the > man walking on the > woman's right side a prescribed number of her steps. > Some people say such > a rule makes the cross an automatic > step--particularly if the man's body > motion does accomodate or lead a cross. A small > minority will go further > and argue that the cross should be led by the man's > right arm. > > Perhaps, geographic dialects might exist if one > particular teacher taught > most of the people in a city/region. With modern > travel, however, it is > hard to imagine these dialects persisting > regionally. > > --Steve (de Tejas) > ===== Daniel Lapadula ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:33:50 -0500 From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects Hi Daniel, Steve, This is one of the most contentious and useless arguments that come up every so often. The cross step of the woman is led and not led at the same time. It's led because the man begins to move and lead the woman to begin a turn to his left, but does not allow her to go around him as he moves forward. The cross is nothing but the front cross that follows the open step to her right..... It's not led per se but it's led because it's the code of the tango. Lets look at it this way. The thing could begin with a salida where thye man leads the woman to take a side step (open) to here right, the next logical step of the turn is a cross. In this case it's back cross that the man leads by going forward (she steps back or crashes into him. The next step would be a side step (open) again to her right, but since the pesky leader continues to move forward, her open step is in a rearward bias. The next logical step of the grapevine (molinete) is of course, a front cross which in this case the woman does while still moving directly backwards, Eureka! there is the famos "cross"..... The man must of course, stop and step in place or risk running over his partner. There we have it, the cross is led because it's the logical progression of the woman's turn to her right, but is not a specific, discrete and special lead that the man must do at the third step when he steps outside to her right. Successful crosses to all, Manuel P.S. thanks to Alberto Paz for his clear and informative lesson on the tango codes. I learned this from him. visit our webpage www.tango-rio.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM> Reply-To: Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango Dialects Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 14:06:30 -0800 From: Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects Hi Manuel...I respect any way you or anyone else feel confortable to dance .I just made my statement from the way our older generation used to do it. We discuced this in many other list in the same way... For example ,my mother ,does not know the basic 8 patern and she shall not collect in front on the man indication...instead she will pivot to take a forward left foot step in a half ocho way at that moment...to continue with any other ,perhaps giro or linear. Regards. Daniel --- WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com> wrote: > Hi Daniel, Steve, > > This is one of the most contentious and useless > arguments that come up every > so often. The cross step of the woman is led and not > led at the same time. > It's led because the man begins to move and lead the > woman to begin a turn > to his left, but does not allow her to go around him > as he moves forward. > The cross is nothing but the front cross that > follows the open step to her > right..... It's not led per se but it's led because > it's the code of the > tango. > > Lets look at it this way. The thing could begin with > a salida where thye man > leads the woman to take a side step (open) to here > right, the next logical > step of the turn is a cross. In this case it's back > cross that the man leads > by going forward (she steps back or crashes into > him. The next step would be > a side step (open) again to her right, but since the > pesky leader continues > to move forward, her open step is in a rearward > bias. The next logical step > of the grapevine (molinete) is of course, a front > cross which in this case > the woman does while still moving directly > backwards, Eureka! there is the > famos "cross"..... The man must of course, stop and > step in place or risk > running over his partner. > > There we have it, the cross is led because it's the > logical progression of > the woman's turn to her right, but is not a > specific, discrete and special > lead that the man must do at the third step when he > steps outside to her > right. > > Successful crosses to all, > > Manuel > > P.S. thanks to Alberto Paz for his clear and > informative lesson on the tango > codes. I learned this from him. > > > > visit our webpage > www.tango-rio.com > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM> > Reply-To: Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM> > To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU > Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango Dialects > Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 12:08:31 -0800 > > The cross..(fift position or colecting in front )in > the female role is a learned step.And , as learned > ,there is not lead for it.She will execute it > following the normal way to do the 8 count basic. > In tango,the man does not walk outside the female > more > than 1 step forward.The number 3,if you need to > dance > counting will be toward your partner and giving > extra > space from your chess to allow her to colect in > cross. > My regards. > Daniel > PS:My own opinion made from many coments from old > milongueros! > > > > There is some controversy about what constitutes > > leading a cross. > > Some people maintain that the cross is led by the > > man walking on the > > woman's right side a prescribed number of her > steps. > > Some people say such > > a rule makes the cross an automatic > > step--particularly if the man's body > > motion does accomodate or lead a cross. A small > > minority will go further > > and argue that the cross should be led by the > man's > > right arm. > > > > Perhaps, geographic dialects might exist if one > > particular teacher taught > > most of the people in a city/region. With modern > > travel, however, it is > > hard to imagine these dialects persisting > > regionally. > > > > --Steve (de Tejas) > > > > > ===== > > Daniel Lapadula > ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > more. > > > ===== Daniel Lapadula ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:17:12 -0500 From: Clint Rauscher <clint@AXIALPARTNERS.COM> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects Hi Daniel, There are very few rules in Tango... I would say that one of them is that it is a 100% lead and follow dance. There are no set patterns. There are patterns but those patterns can be broken at any point; therefore, they are not set in stone. The cross is lead in the chest of the leader. You can step outside partner and continue outside partner for as many steps as you like and the follow should not cross until you bring her to the cross by bringing your back forward. The cross should never be assumed or expected unless you lead it. This is fundamental.. anything else would remove the lead follow aspect of the dance. Every step.. every move is a new idea. The follow should never assume an ending for an idea. Maybe some people teach an automatic cross, but the only dancers that I have ever danced with that have automatically crossed have been dancers only dancing a week or so. Now, many follows that I know say that some leaders do not know how to lead the cross and so they figure out those leaders very quickly and do the cross for them. I personally don't want a follow to ever do anything unless I have asked for it.. except adornments and embellishments of course. Thanks, Clint Rauscher clint@axialpartners.com > The cross..(fift position or colecting in front )in > the female role is a learned step.And , as learned > ,there is not lead for it.She will execute it > following the normal way to do the 8 count basic. > In tango,the man does not walk outside the female more > than 1 step forward.The number 3,if you need to dance > counting will be toward your partner and giving extra > space from your chess to allow her to colect in cross. > My regards. > Daniel > PS:My own opinion made from many coments from old > milongueros! Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:28:42 -0500 From: Clint Rauscher <clint@AXIALPARTNERS.COM> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects Hi Daniel, This email came in as I was responding to the earlier. > For example ,my mother ,does not know the basic 8 > patern and she shall not collect in front on the man > indication...instead she will pivot to take a forward > left foot step in a half ocho way at that moment...to > continue with any other ,perhaps giro or linear. This is exactly my point.. your mother is following her leader.. if her leader did not ask for a cross then she will collect with her feet side by side and be ready for the next movement. I would argue that even the weight change at the end of the cross is lead. You could lead a follow to cross but not take weight on her left foot and then swing it out.. her putting weight on her left foot (the foot crossing in front) would come from her sense of you settling onto your right foot at the end of leading the cross. Now this is very difficult.. most all follows will go ahead and put that left foot down if you lead the cross which I would not argue with.. that is what you would want 99% of the time, but technically they should weight for a weight change from you before they change their weight. Going back to the first email when you spoke of the old milongueros not leading the cross.. I have seen teachers not teach leading the cross in the chest.. but noticed that they do indeed do that. It is very slight and because they have been leading so long they can do it and not know that they are doing it. Then the leaders in their class try leading it flat because that is what it looked like the teacher was doing, when in fact the leader was leading it with their chest if you look very very closely. Clint Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 17:46:58 EST From: Simon3940@AOL.COM Subject: Tango Dialects Clint, You should try the experience with a woman - they frequently do stuff you haven't asked for, and its wonderful. Simon ....I personally don't want a follow to ever do anything unless I have asked for it.. except adornments and embellishments of course. Thanks, Clint Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:51:51 -0500 From: Clint Rauscher <clint@AXIALPARTNERS.COM> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects > You should try the experience with a woman - they frequently > do stuff you > haven't asked for, and its wonderful. Jeezz.. Do adults dance tango? Maybe the adults dance and don't talk so much about it. I don't know why when someone says something that someone disagrees with, instead of discussing it they immediately jump into petty attacks and insults. So are you saying that I don't dance with Women? Whatever? Obviously that is what I meant by follow.. and even if it was not, who cares. grow up. Maybe I am a gay man that only dances in dancehalls with other men... so what if that was true.. it does not change the discussion. As to the discussion, so if you were leading a WOMAN to do ochos and she crossed instead, would that would be fine with you? I clearly stated in my posting that followers/women do adornments and embellishments without being lead to do so. But as the leader/man you are the one creating the choreography; otherwise, she is back leading you. Maybe I am missing something... please give me an example of where a woman might "do stuff" you haven't asked for. Are you saying that you asked for something and she did something else and it turned out to be nice... sure that happens... some great moves come out of accidents. Clint Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:42:42 -0500 From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects Hi Daniel, Actually I'm very much in agreement with you. What you wrote and what the old timers say is true. I only wanted to explain why the cross happens. As you know, in the old days, the tango was not danced like it is now but the man and the woman would dance in front of each other but travelled sideways to the man's left. I've seen many excellent teachers show these old ways to tango. Later on it became the "tango cruzado" which is what we do today. I've taken lesson from Eduardo and Gloria as well as other teachers who've explained all this very well. Actually I received a private email reminding me that Gustavo Naveira has also been tremedously helpful in de-mystifying and explaining the code of the tango. Actually I remeber taking lessons from you in Cleveland where you very aptly showed the same principles in action. If people understood that the principal step of tango is the grapevine, there would be a lot less discussion and argument about these things. It's un-necessary to lead the woman to do each and every discrete step of the turn. It's only necessary to lead her to move in the turn, if she has even a rudimentary knowledge of tango, she'll know that she must step in a certain pattern, open, cross, open, cross. Of course, the cross steps alternate between back crosses and forward crosses. From this "turn" or "molinete" or "grapevine" comes the tango dance. The man leads the direction and number of steps and he accompanies his partner. That's the magic of lead and follow. All the steps of tango come from the turns. Sure, the man can lead the woman to stop the turn and reverse directions which produces "ochos", "ganchos" and "boleos". The ocho can be very short as in the "ocho cortado". The man can produce all kinds of sacadas by stepping between the feet of the woman (following the trailing foot). Likewise he can produce all sorts of other simple or complex figures but they almost all are a result of the interplay of the dancers while doing turns. The woman does the molinete or grapevine (open, front cross, open back cross, etc.) while the man generally keeps walking forward, maybe turning or in a straight line. Happy turns to all, Manuel visit our webpage www.tango-rio.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM> Reply-To: Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango Dialects Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 18:18:15 -0800 From: Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects Manuel wrote: "man and the woman would dance in front of each other but travelled sideways to the man's left" Manuel and Daniel are correct, finally outside Argentina we are understanding how the tango dynamic works. If you dance as described by Manuel, then you are leading the follower in a molinete to the left; the follower has no choice but to cross, regardless if it's lead or not. Remember that what we called the "cross" in the so called "basic", is nothing less or nothing more than a front cross in a left molinete. Just to add some leader etiquete, the man's back is towards the center of the dance floor and the woman's towards the tables. This serves a few purposes: - 1st. Allows the leader to protect the woman from being stepped on. - 2nd. It travels in the line of dancing and allows the man to navigate better. - 3rd. Allows the woman to show her dance skills and beauty (since she is in front). Remember, tango is about her. Also, if you have problems dancing milonga, try dancing it to the left as describe by Manuel, it makes it a lot easier. Carlos Rojas Portland, OR -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2005 5:43 PM To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango Dialects Hi Daniel, Actually I'm very much in agreement with you. What you wrote and what the old timers say is true. I only wanted to explain why the cross happens. As you know, in the old days, the tango was not danced like it is now but the man and the woman would dance in front of each other but travelled sideways to the man's left. I've seen many excellent teachers show these old ways to tango. Later on it became the "tango cruzado" which is what we do today. I've taken lesson from Eduardo and Gloria as well as other teachers who've explained all this very well. Actually I received a private email reminding me that Gustavo Naveira has also been tremedously helpful in de-mystifying and explaining the code of the tango. Actually I remeber taking lessons from you in Cleveland where you very aptly showed the same principles in action. If people understood that the principal step of tango is the grapevine, there would be a lot less discussion and argument about these things. It's un-necessary to lead the woman to do each and every discrete step of the turn. It's only necessary to lead her to move in the turn, if she has even a rudimentary knowledge of tango, she'll know that she must step in a certain pattern, open, cross, open, cross. Of course, the cross steps alternate between back crosses and forward crosses. From this "turn" or "molinete" or "grapevine" comes the tango dance. The man leads the direction and number of steps and he accompanies his partner. That's the magic of lead and follow. All the steps of tango come from the turns. Sure, the man can lead the woman to stop the turn and reverse directions which produces "ochos", "ganchos" and "boleos". The ocho can be very short as in the "ocho cortado". The man can produce all kinds of sacadas by stepping between the feet of the woman (following the trailing foot). Likewise he can produce all sorts of other simple or complex figures but they almost all are a result of the interplay of the dancers while doing turns. The woman does the molinete or grapevine (open, front cross, open back cross, etc.) while the man generally keeps walking forward, maybe turning or in a straight line. Happy turns to all, Manuel visit our webpage www.tango-rio.com ----Original Message Follows---- To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango Dialects Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 20:06:32 -0800 From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects Yes, go ahead! Explain a beginner that cross is a part of turn, tell him that in order to lead cross he must do a molinete to the left, then cut the woman's forward step! He will look at you with his eyes wide open, he will be very thankful. Not even a year will pass and he already will be leading the cross! ... Simpler, simpler! Less lyrics more physics. Molinete is a very difficult element. But the cross must be explained at the very beginning. Do you see a problem here? Everything is not a turn in tango. Tango can be danced without molinetes at all, and it still will be tango. Excellent tango. Igor Polk Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:26:50 -0500 From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects Igor, If you take the turns out of the tango, all you have left is walking straight forward in front of your partner, some side steps and cortes (arrepentidas). Sure you can dance a tango doing nothing but those steps, but then you'd be missing a huge part and enjoyment of the dance..... As for teaching beginners how to cross, it's not so simple as telling them all about the molinete, the code of the tango the role of the man and the woman or any other deeper knowledge. That's not so easy to comprehend when the beginner is trying to learn to walk without stepping on his partner.... This is why many people teach the cross by explaining to the women to cross at the third step after the leader begins walking to her right, or by explaining that once the man steps to the side the woman tries to get back in front and crosses her left foot in front of her right to accomplish this. Other people teach the men to perform some kind of contortion with their "chest" (usually ends up with moving the woman with his arms) in order to produce a cross.... All these stratagems can serve the purpose to teach the cross step, but I belive that it would be better to teach the women to do turns to both sides and to men how to lead these turns. IMHO, teaching the maligned 8 count basic to the cross, has the terrible drawback that it chops the dance and teaches people bad habits. Sure, teaching people to walk together, move to the music and do little shifts of weight in place or side to side, can get them dancing around in a simple way. but eventually they'll have to learn to do turns or they are doomed to stay beginners forever. The step to the cross will only works seamlessly and well when the dancers understand the codes and the basics of tango which definitely include the turns. Manuel visit our webpage www.tango-rio.com ----Original Message Follows---- From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM> Reply-To: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango Dialects Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:27:34 -0800 From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects Dear Manuel, First of all I'd like to thank you for your personal answer, your attention is very pleasant for me. I am not against turns. I do them wonderfully in close embrace, and of course they make the dance great. I am only against Tango Nuevo theory that everything is originated from a turn. It may. But equally it may originated from the special ( I guess it is called here "grape-vine" ) pattern or even from plain walk ( 6 types of forward walk, 6 types of backward walk and 4 types of side walk in one direction - good variety, ah?). I consider it a better and easier explanation not only for beginners, but of advanced dancers either. Rotation theory had some very deep and catastrophic limitations. You may not believe me, I do not have much argument right now, but you can try to check it out yourself. If you want to, of course. Tango is not related to turns only. Tango is not turns, it is something else. I can dance, and I do dance the whole dance without any turn. It means there is something else which is great in tango. People who learn on turns theory are usually not able to dance in very confined places like bars. As for close embrace, I mean turns in close embrace, I would say that rotation theory of Tango Nuevo is not applicable. If you take it from linear movement - it is easier to understand and the path to perfection is shorter. Manuel, your phrase "little shifts of weight in place or side to side" tells me a lot. I have been through this, and I know it is wrong, sorry for the directness. Will you still be interested to ask "Why?" Well, here, for the audience I will answer now: -Because a man does not lead by shifting his weight. Shifting of the weight from foot to foot for a man is the result of the woman's answer to the initial lead. One more idea is coming with the next message. Is it a new one? Igor Polk. Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 21:53:08 -0800 From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects Ok. Here are some ideas to try. Is there someone tried it already? These are just sketches, so please do not be very critical. There are at least 3 grape-vine side walks in one direction. 2 are obvious ( one is when a man steps outside like in step 3 of 8-count, and the third one when both do the same steps - the man forward and a woman forward, the man backward, and the woman backward. The third one should be easy and cool to do in an apilado position with leaning ( check my site ). Ok, we are going side in a grape-vine. Now apply changing of directions. In the direct Chicho way. Do you feel the number of available combinations? Is it how molinetes developed? (I remember from my early days - the first problem for me in molinetes was what to do with my own legs. In grape-vine my legs are already busy. Well that time passed.) Now, sacadas come to place. Not from a rotation but from the grape-vine walks. There are 2 more varieties of grape-vine. They are distinguished like this: First). Man makes long forward steps, and short backward steps. Second). Man make short forward steps and long backward. 2x3= at least 6 variations. And that is without changes of direction and sacadas. Feeling yahoo? Now. Let us speculate where grape-vine itself is originated from. What if we do the grape-vine in place, without movement to the side? It is going to be like this: (For man) backward - "legs together" - forward - "legs together". "Legs together" is like a small side step. It definitely reminds me of some conversation here about gauchos. Do you remember what? Igor Polk from San Francisco. Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2005 23:16:29 -0700 From: Chas Gale <hotchango@MSN.COM> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects ---Daniel Lapadula wrote--- The cross..(fift position or colecting in front )in the female role is a learned step.And , as learned ,there is not lead for it.She will execute it following the normal way to do the 8 count basic. In tango,the man does not walk outside the female more than 1 step forward.The number 3,if you need to dance counting will be toward your partner and giving extra space from your chess to allow her to colect in cross. My regards. Daniel PS:My own opinion made from many coments from old milongueros! I understand that the term "milonguero" was once none to flattering. He was not a desirable individual. Calling him milonguero was more a judgment on his character than the quality of his tango. How fortunate we are that the tango, like any other language is allowed to evolve. Chas "Leads Every Step" Gale Denver, Colorado, USA, https://www.thetangohouse.com Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 15:30:11 +0900 From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects. Michael responded to Malcolm: The woman should always be in front of the man (lined up buttons to buttons). When the man steps outside the woman (on her right), she is no longer in front of him. She crosses to back in front of the man, NOT because the man took two steps outside the woman. I was going to respond to this statement. But when I looked down, and there followed a long thread of postings on this subject, including defending the 8cb, dismissing the 8cb, tango nuevo theories, attacks, insults, indignation, mathematical explanations, references to Argentine customs... A perfect exemple to demonstrate to a newcomer what tango-l is like, half of the time. ; ) In the end I went back to this simple statement above. IMO, that is really all there is to it. The man has started to walk outside the woman. While he is walking, their upper bodies stay connected, which means, that the whole time, their torsos are twisted, while they are embracing each other. How long can you go on walking like this? Sooner or later, not always after two steps, the man straightens out his body , and this brings the woman back in front of him. Resulting in her crossing her feet. In my earlier years (just occasionally now), a man led me far around the right side of his body, doing some complicated moves, and eventually almost loosing the connection in the embrace. When the connection started to break, I sometimes almost took over the lead, did a long ocho to the right, just to get back in front of his body, so that we could go on dancing together, by sort of getting back into the "starting" position of the cross. The man always seemed to react with confusion, and I have not understood to this day, what exactly goes on when that happens. Astrid Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 09:04:19 +0000 From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects 2 cents on several topics... I agree with Astrid and others that, when you get to step #4, the woman is going to take a step with her left foot, and the only step that maintains the connection and brings her back in front of her leader is a fwd cross. Yes, the grapevine/turn explanation works too, but that seems overly complicated vs. the simpler principle of just maintaining the connection. ----- I used to lead the cross all the time, with an extra rotation CW (sort of a "wind up"), then returning with a CCW rotation as I close with my right on 5, bringing the woman back in front of me. But I find that it's very situational, that is, sometimes, with some followers, especially beginners, I have to almost "over-lead" it, to keep them from stepping back and losing the connection, while with more experienced followers it's almost not necessary to lead it at all. ----- I too have seen some leaders, with sensitive followers who are not on automatic pilot, lead a cross, then decline to lead the weight change, giving the option of leading a reversal to a left side step, back step, or a back ocho for the woman (Robin Thomas and Jennifer Bratt of NY come to mind). ----- While it's true that a cross is categorically equivalent to a front ocho, I don't find that analysis helpful at all, since they differ so markedly in the amount of hip rotation as to be quite different steps. J in Portland www.TangoMoments.com ----Original Message Follows---- Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 06:09:40 -0800 From: Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects Chas: It evolve,it really does. In Buenos Aires ,today ,it is an honor to be concider a milonguero ( as always..as far as I remember) Good leads Chas. Regards. Daniel --- Chas Gale <hotchango@MSN.COM> wrote: > ---Daniel Lapadula wrote--- > The cross..(fift position or colecting in front )in > the female role is a learned step.And , as learned > ,there is not lead for it.She will execute it > following the normal way to do the 8 count basic. > In tango,the man does not walk outside the female > more > than 1 step forward.The number 3,if you need to > dance > counting will be toward your partner and giving > extra > space from your chess to allow her to colect in > cross. > My regards. > Daniel > PS:My own opinion made from many coments from old > milongueros! > > I understand that the term "milonguero" was once > none to flattering. He > was not a desirable individual. Calling him > milonguero was more a > judgment on his character than the quality of his > tango. > > How fortunate we are that the tango, like any other > language is allowed > to evolve. > > Chas "Leads Every Step" Gale > Denver, Colorado, USA, > https://www.thetangohouse.com > ===== Daniel Lapadula ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 10:12:16 -0600 From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects The cross is one of the most common elements of the tango vocabulary, but all five descriptions that have been offered about how the cross is created are really theories--including the explanation offered by the old milongueros. (I have listed all five theories below.) Interestingly enough only one of the five theories is completely inconsistent with the others--the idea that the cross ought to be led with the man's right arm. We probably ought to throw out that theory--even though some teachers use it. The theory that everything has a lead--and the cross is led by the chest of the man--is not inconsistent with the other theories in that this describes the twisted torsos that can result from the man walking outside the woman, but let's be honest, most women will take the cross whether or not the man is using the proper body motion. For most men, the woman must work with the codes of the dance's movements as well as the man's lead. For teaching beginners probably the easiest to grasp theories (such as the cross is is a learned step or the cross it brings the woman back in front of the man) work the best. Later we can apply the nuevo analysis to the cross--not so much to help us understand the cross, which we ought to know fairly well by the time we are ready for nuevo analysis, but to help us understand nuevo theory. With best regards, Steve (de Tejas) Theory 1(The cross is a learned step from the old milongueros via Daniel): >The cross..(fift position or colecting in front )in >the female role is a learned step.And , as learned >,there is not lead for it.She will execute it >following the normal way to do the 8 count basic. >In tango,the man does not walk outside the female more >than 1 step forward.The number 3,if you need to dance >counting will be toward your partner and giving extra >space from your chess to allow her to colect in cross. Theory 2 (the cross brings the woman back in from the the man from the pedagogic approach via Astrid): >The man has started to walk outside >the woman. While he is walking, their upper bodies stay connected, which >means, that the whole time, their torsos are twisted, while they are >embracing each other. How long can you go on walking like this? Sooner or >later, not always after two steps, the man straightens out his body , and >this brings the woman back in front of him. Resulting in her crossing her >feet. Theory 3 (The nuevo analysis via Manuel): >The cross step of the woman is led and not led at the same time. >It's led because the man begins to move and lead the woman to begin a turn >to his left, but does not allow her to go around him as he moves forward. >The cross is nothing but the front cross that follows the open step to her >right..... It's not led per se but it's led because it's the code of the >tango. >Lets look at it this way. The thing could begin with a salida where thye man >leads the woman to take a side step (open) to here right, the next logical >step of the turn is a cross. In this case it's back cross that the man leads >by going forward (she steps back or crashes into him. The next step would be >a side step (open) again to her right, but since the pesky leader continues >to move forward, her open step is in a rearward bias. The next logical step >of the grapevine (molinete) is of course, a front cross which in this case >the woman does while still moving directly backwards, Eureka! there is the >famos "cross"..... The man must of course, stop and step in place or risk >running over his partner. >There we have it, the cross is led because it's the logical progression of >the woman's turn to her right, but is not a specific, discrete and special >lead that the man must do at the third step when he steps outside to her >right. Theory 4 (everything has a lead via Clint): >There are very few rules in Tango... I would say that one of them is that it >is a 100% lead and follow dance. There are no set patterns. There are >patterns but those patterns can be broken at any point; therefore, they are >not set in stone. >The cross is lead in the chest of the leader. You can step outside partner >and continue outside partner for as many steps as you like and the follow >should not cross until you bring her to the cross by bringing your back >forward. The cross should never be assumed or expected unless you lead it. >This is fundamental.. anything else would remove the lead follow aspect of >the dance. Theory 5 (everything has a lead): >The cross is led by the man's right arm. Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 17:41:59 +0000 From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Tango Dialects Michael says: "The woman doesn't back lead the man to do figures, but she tells him to stop so that she can do something, e.g. sweeping the man's foot after he sweeps her foot." I said before that anyone can dance the way it pleases him. Most of what has already been said with respect to this subject I find correct but... I personally hate when after I did -un arrastre o barrida- "sweep" the woman on her own decides to sweep back. If I want her to sweep back I lead her to do so. If I am not expecting her to sweep me back, her doing so is not going to be just a surprise is going to be an interference with what I have in mind. Embellishments are usually lead as well. True the woman can do some on her own if the man allows time. If I lead a gancho then after the gancho I also lead an amague, etc. I may also teach a woman to always do an amague on herself after a gancho on the man. As to the cross, most classical salon tango dancers will allow the woman to automatically cross in front after he walks two steps to her right. When I do not want her to lock in front, I prevent her from doing so by placing my left foot by her left one so that she cannot cross. A few will always lead the cross and also the change of wait or not. Those usually are stage dancers that do very complex choreography. For general social dancing the cross can be done automatically. Milonga, on the other hand, usually requires that the front cross be lead, because many figures do not require such a cross. This could not be quite clear to the follower. The cross in front is not a natural step, it has to be learnt. This is easily noticed when you dance with a beginner. If she does not lock in front then I dance the whole tango without asking her to cross, it is that simple. Most instructors teach that " -when I walk in front of you, you do not cross, if I walk outside to your left, you do not cross but when I walk to your right you lock in front unless I prevent you from doing so- ". Summary: there are several ways to do anything. Several styles with different technique. Everything depends on personal preference and degree of complexity of dancing. Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 13:26:45 -0500 From: Ilene Marder <imhmedia@ULSTER.NET> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects Isn't Argentine tango an _improvised_ dance between 2 people??????? Sergio says: "I personally hate when after I did -un arrastre o barrida- "sweep" the woman on her own decides to sweep back. If I want her to sweep back I lead her to do so. If I am not expecting her to sweep me back, her doing so is not going to be just a surprise is going to be an interference with what I have in mind. " > Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 14:51:23 -0500 From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects Daniel Trenner said "There is no security in tango." Think of tango from the woman's point of view. Some women take a lot of private lessons, practice long hours, and never get a chance to use their skills. Men go to classes, learn figures, and attempt to lead them. That's OK. Women learn adornments and don't get a chance to do them because the man doesn't give them an opportunity. That's OK??? That must be very frustrating. If tango is a 50-50 proposition, why shouldn't the woman have a chance for interleading and create opportunities for herself. A woman in New York at the incomparable Esmerelda's milonga swept my foot after I swept hers. Was I expecting it? NO!! Did the woman interfere with my lead? NO. She just changed the conversation between us to guarantee it was a dialogue and NOT a monologue. A man will find out very quickly if he is any good by being able to react to the unexpected. Tango is like Chess. There are a lot of possible moves the other player can make. The man looks good when he gives the woman a chance to look good. Michael Ditkoff Washington, DC Going to Denver Tango Festival where any woman can sweep my foot -- I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango!! Ileene wrote: > Isn't Argentine tango an _improvised_ dance between 2 people??????? > > > Sergio says: > "I personally hate when after I did -un arrastre o barrida- "sweep" the > woman on her own decides to sweep back. If I want her to sweep back I lead > her to do so. If I am not expecting her to sweep me back, her doing so is > not going to be just a surprise is going to be an interference with what I > have in mind. " > > > > >> > Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 19:35:21 -0600 From: Hector <maselli@GATE.NET> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects On Feb 11, 2005, at 2:00 AM, Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG> wrote: >A small minority will go further >and argue that the cross should be led by the man's right arm. Change right arm with upper torso and the small minority becomes the ones who know how to dance a tango. Hector Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 13:22:06 +0900 From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects Michael wrote: "If tango is a 50-50 proposition, why shouldn't the woman have a chance for interleading and create opportunities for herself. A woman in New York at the incomparable Esmerelda's milonga swept my foot after I swept hers. Was I expecting it? NO!! Did the woman interfere with my lead? NO. She just changed the conversation between us to guarantee it was a dialogue and NOT a monologue. A man will find out very quickly if he is any good by being able to react to the unexpected. " For that, the man would have to know how to follow...Many men don't know how to do that, and loose their balance, if the woman leads something. Actually, after practising tango a long time, you realise that there is much more time inside one step than you thought. And that opens plenty of opportunities to insert adornos without interrupting the flow, for the woman, and also, plenty of time to take notice that she is, and to wait for her, for the man. Of course, same as in the salon vs. milonguero controversy, there will always be dancers who put energy into pointing out the undesirability of the other style rather than reflecting on the necessary skills to dance it. Astrid's 2 cents Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2005 23:48:38 -0800 From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects Dear Michael, I agree. Women who can add something tn the conversation are the ones I like as well. Derik --- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET> wrote: > Daniel Trenner said "There is no security in tango." > > Think of tango from the woman's point of view. Some women take a lot of > private lessons, practice long hours, and never get a chance to use their > skills. Men go to classes, learn figures, and attempt to lead them. That' > s > OK. Women learn adornments and don't get a chance to do them because the > man doesn't give them an opportunity. That's OK??? That must be very > frustrating. > > If tango is a 50-50 proposition, why shouldn't the woman have a chance fo > r > interleading and create opportunities for herself. A woman in New York at > the incomparable Esmerelda's milonga swept my foot after I swept hers. Wa > s > I expecting it? NO!! Did the woman interfere with my lead? NO. She just > changed the conversation between us to guarantee it was a dialogue and NO > T > a monologue. > > A man will find out very quickly if he is any good by being able to react > to the unexpected. Tango is like Chess. There are a lot of possible moves > the other player can make. > > The man looks good when he gives the woman a chance to look good. > > Michael Ditkoff > Washington, DC > Going to Denver Tango Festival > where any woman can sweep my foot > > > -- > I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango!! > > > Ileene wrote: > > Isn't Argentine tango an _improvised_ dance between 2 people??????? > > > > > > Sergio says: > > "I personally hate when after I did -un arrastre o barrida- "sweep" t > he > > woman on her own decides to sweep back. If I want her to sweep back I l > ead > > her to do so. If I am not expecting her to sweep me back, her doing so > is > > not going to be just a surprise is going to be an interference with wha > t I > > have in mind. " > > > > > > > > > >> > > > Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 00:55:09 -0800 From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM> Subject: Re: Tango Dialects Dear Sergio, Do you want the woman to remain silent in the conversation, by not sweeping your foot? And if you do, then why allow her to lead herself into an automatic cross? Derik --- TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU <imhmedia@ULSTER.NET> wrote: > Isn't Argentine tango an _improvised_ dance between 2 people??????? > > > Sergio says: > "I personally hate when after I did -un arrastre o barrida- "sweep" the > woman on her own decides to sweep back. If I want her to sweep back I lead > her to do so. If I am not expecting her to sweep me back, her doing so is > not going to be just a surprise is going to be an interference with what I > have in mind. " > > > > > > > Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 15:44:36 +0000 From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM> Subject: Tango dialects Dear tangueros and tangueras, You can speak the dialect that you find the best for you. I am merely describing what other tango dancers do. Tango is an improvised dance with a leader and a follower. This basic characteristic is shared with all the other ballroom dances. The initiative as to what is going to be lead is up to the man, the woman follows. This following is precisely her answer to a proposal, this is her part in the conversation. The same way as the passenger placed in the back seat of the car does not interfere with the driver, the woman does not interfere with what the leader has in mind. The man is creating a tango to please the woman, a tango where he will allow her to show all her colors and her skills in technique and artistic interpretation. Michael gives examples where a man does not allow the woman to show her skills. This means that the man most likely dances tango liso(simple) or that he is inexperienced. For the woman to start doing things that he does not lead is totally out of place, for she is going to alter his dancing or even worse she will humiliate him. What she should do is to dance with a better dancer that will lead everything she can and want to do. As to reacting to the unexpected, the good leader always knows how to do this. We do this all the time when dancing with beginner or intermediate women that may mis interpret some leads, we compensate in such a way that she does not even notice that something did not work. But to try to teach how to react to the unexpected to an inexperienced leader ...this is not going to take the dance too far. As to leading or not leading the cross, just do it the way you prefer. It is totally irrelevant! Everything works well. You have to understand that there are several ways to do things. I can walk to the right of the woman and expect that she is going to lock in front after two steps, (in this case I do not lead her cross, she does it on her own) or I CAN LEAD HER TO CROSS in front if I wish or I can walk outside to her right for ANY number of steps just by placing my left foot close to hers, indicating (leading) her not to cross. Everything works well. I can assure you that most people do not lead the woman to cross but if you do this is fine as well. As to the meaning of the attribute "milonguero" you should know by now that tango had a bad reputation in Argentina from the beginning. At a time when all the ballroom dances were considered to be "sinful" including Viennese Waltz Tango was the "worst". A dance done in the suburbs, the outskirts, the brothels, bars and gambling houses. Dancers of low socioeconomic class, prostitutes, compadritos and pimps. a dance where the bodies not only touched each other but where the legs invaded each other spaces. So a milonguero/a was an individual not very well liked. This prejudice is still present in some people but I will discuss this later. Summary: If you wish to dance interleading do so and have fun. I am used to lead every move of the lady and when she does something on her own it happens because in some way "I" caused her to do so. There are many ways to cook an egg that can be pleasant to both partners in the equation. Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2005 20:06:38 -0800 From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM> Subject: Re: Tango dialects --- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote: > I can walk to the right of the woman and expect that > she is going to lock in > front after two steps, (in this case I do not lead > her cross, she does it on > her own) or I CAN LEAD HER TO CROSS in front if I > wish or I can walk outside > to her right for ANY number of steps just by placing > my left foot close to > hers, indicating (leading) her not to cross. > Everything works well. I can > assure you that most people do not lead the woman to > cross but if you do > this is fine as well. In terms of practicality, I have to agree with Sergio, here. Even though, I teach that the cross is lead, I also teach the women to feel for the space of the legs between her and the man when he is outside partner and to cross if the space is available. This solves the problem of teaching beginning women when to cross when the beginning men are still working on the basic marca from the chest. And keeps her from encouraging brutal leads from the man. We talk about the mark coming from the chest, but the woman still feels the invitation from the rest of the man's body. Trini de Pittsburgh ===== PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance. https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm Continue to Is Tango Popular in Brazil ? \| ARTICLE INDEX

3211 Tango Dialects.