2512 Tango-philes - Ode to Joy
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:08:24 -0500
From: Gibson Batch <gibsonbatch@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango-philes - Ode to Joy
Just a passing thought - perhaps it will generate some discussion....
Has anyone noticed that the more a person WRITES to TANGO-L, the less that
person actually Tangos?
In another pet hobby, I have been known to be an 'armchair astronomer',
reading about the stars and planets in Astronomy Magazine rather than taking
the effort to get out of my seat and actually looking through my telescope.
I too am guilty of being an 'armchair Tango-phile' at times - it is
interesting to THINK about Tango rather than actually driving across town to
go to a milonga. And when I DO go the milonga, I feel really happy to
dance, and I feel joy.
But I see this joy expressed rarely on Tango-L, so I don't get it.
I wonder if our Tango-L groupies (which in my mind treats any true kindness
or weakness with contempt) are in fact 'arm-chair Tango-philes' expressing
their frustrations at not being able to dance more often ;-)
I ask because the recent thread of thought of being turned away from a dance
is devastating to me as a leader. It is harsh treatment, even in the 'nice'
state of Minnesota. Dancers try to get along at least for one dance rather
than commit the offence of outright rejection. Subtle avoidance is OK, but
outright rejection - never.
I will add that the few individuals (followers) who have turned me down
during my first influencial 6 months of dancing have never been asked by me
to dance again. Of course they are the ones who are left unattended at
milongas because they have turned up their noses at many other leaders in
the group. Come on people - we got to get our act together and find the
joy.
I'm off to Prague for a week. I hope to find some Tango friends in town.
If I find you in Czechia, may we find joy together - even though I may not
be the nation's hottest dancer.
Gibson
Minneapolis
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 16:20:19 EDT
From: Mallpasso@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Tango-philes - Ode to Joy
Good point!
I started tango dancing 5-1/2 years ago and it was a struggle in the
beginning (the first year of so) since I got very few dances from the more advanced
ladies (to those few advanced ladies who danced with me... I'm forever indebted
to them!).
In some way the climb up the ladder of competence is very much a Darwinian
process as only the strong willed "newbie" leaders survive. Like Gibson, those
ladies who turned me down haven't been asked again (and like Gibson pointed
out, some of them stand around looking for a dance), but I'll have to confess
that if they asked me now, I'd dance with them.
El Bandito de Tango.
In a message dated 6/15/2004 12:10:20 Pacific Daylight Time,
gibsonbatch@HOTMAIL.COM writes:
Just a passing thought - perhaps it will generate some discussion....
Has anyone noticed that the more a person WRITES to TANGO-L, the less that
person actually Tangos?
In another pet hobby, I have been known to be an 'armchair astronomer',
reading about the stars and planets in Astronomy Magazine rather than taking
the effort to get out of my seat and actually looking through my telescope.
I too am guilty of being an 'armchair Tango-phile' at times - it is
interesting to THINK about Tango rather than actually driving across town to
go to a milonga. And when I DO go the milonga, I feel really happy to
dance, and I feel joy.
But I see this joy expressed rarely on Tango-L, so I don't get it.
I wonder if our Tango-L groupies (which in my mind treats any true kindness
or weakness with contempt) are in fact 'arm-chair Tango-philes' expressing
their frustrations at not being able to dance more often ;-)
I ask because the recent thread of thought of being turned away from a dance
is devastating to me as a leader. It is harsh treatment, even in the 'nice'
state of Minnesota. Dancers try to get along at least for one dance rather
than commit the offence of outright rejection. Subtle avoidance is OK, but
outright rejection - never.
I will add that the few individuals (followers) who have turned me down
during my first influencial 6 months of dancing have never been asked by me
to dance again. Of course they are the ones who are left unattended at
milongas because they have turned up their noses at many other leaders in
the group. Come on people - we got to get our act together and find the
joy.
I'm off to Prague for a week. I hope to find some Tango friends in town.
If I find you in Czechia, may we find joy together - even though I may not
be the nation's hottest dancer.
Gibson
Minneapolis
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 21:08:08 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango-philes - Ode to Joy
Gibson wrote about lack of joy expressed on Tango-L:
"But I see this [tango dancing] joy expressed rarely on Tango-L, so I don't
get it."
Joy has small informational value *and* not everyone is poet enough to write
exciting odes every time they sit in front of computer. Hence the joy of
tango remains experienced but not necessarily expressed. There have been
some notable and beautiful exceptions by the way.
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
PS In addition to writing I enJoy tango and do dance it too.
>From: Gibson Batch <gibsonbatch@HOTMAIL.COM>
>Reply-To: Gibson Batch <gibsonbatch@HOTMAIL.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango-philes - Ode to Joy
>Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 14:08:24 -0500
>
>Just a passing thought - perhaps it will generate some discussion....
>
>Has anyone noticed that the more a person WRITES to TANGO-L, the less that
>person actually Tangos?
>
>In another pet hobby, I have been known to be an 'armchair astronomer',
>reading about the stars and planets in Astronomy Magazine rather than
>taking
>the effort to get out of my seat and actually looking through my telescope.
>
>I too am guilty of being an 'armchair Tango-phile' at times - it is
>interesting to THINK about Tango rather than actually driving across town
>to
>go to a milonga. And when I DO go the milonga, I feel really happy to
>dance, and I feel joy.
>
>But I see this joy expressed rarely on Tango-L, so I don't get it.
>
>I wonder if our Tango-L groupies (which in my mind treats any true kindness
>or weakness with contempt) are in fact 'arm-chair Tango-philes' expressing
>their frustrations at not being able to dance more often ;-)
>
>I ask because the recent thread of thought of being turned away from a
>dance
>is devastating to me as a leader. It is harsh treatment, even in the
>'nice'
>state of Minnesota. Dancers try to get along at least for one dance rather
>than commit the offence of outright rejection. Subtle avoidance is OK, but
>outright rejection - never.
>
>I will add that the few individuals (followers) who have turned me down
>during my first influencial 6 months of dancing have never been asked by me
>to dance again. Of course they are the ones who are left unattended at
>milongas because they have turned up their noses at many other leaders in
>the group. Come on people - we got to get our act together and find the
>joy.
>
>I'm off to Prague for a week. I hope to find some Tango friends in town.
>If I find you in Czechia, may we find joy together - even though I may not
>be the nation's hottest dancer.
>
>Gibson
>Minneapolis
>
MSN 9 Dial-up Internet Access fights spam and pop-ups now 3 months FREE!
Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2004 16:17:50 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Ode to Joy
If you draw a line
Precisely close and parallel to mine
We could wait together clear on past the stars
And never meet....
But since the distances between these points of distant heat
Are deep and blind....
Sight a course for collision.
The precision of our loving is the lethal kind.
Ken Kesey
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:37:23 -0500
From: Frank Williams <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tango-philes
Heyo,
Gibson writes: >>Has anyone noticed that the more a person WRITES to
TANGO-L, the less that person actually Tangos?<<
No. IMHO, our motivations to write and to dance are different. I have
written with about the same frequency whether I've been dancing 20+
nights/month or 0 nights/month. The moods, the ideas within the movement,
and the culture that surround the dance are considerable at many levels.
Hopefully, everyone knows that the writing here is significantly abstracted
from the fragrant and gritty world of dance. Compared to holding somebody
and feeling her pulse and her breath, what one can appreciate here is, at
best, a very distant echo! Yet, it IS a reverberation of the close personal
interactions in tango - mostly independent of our relationship status,
health/injuries, finances, appreciation of venues, appreciation of friends,
etc. etc.
Frank - Mpls.
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D.
University of Minnesota
frankw@umn.edu
612-625-6441
Department of Neuroscience
6-145 Jackson Hall
321 Church St. SE.
Minneapolis, MN 55455
Department of Veterinary and Biomedical Sciences
1971 Commonwealth Ave.
St. Paul, Minnesota 55108
Date: Wed, 16 Jun 2004 10:52:13 -0700
From: Ricardo Tanturi <tanturi666@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Declining invitatoins (was Tango-philes - Ode to Joy)
>From: Gibson Batch <gibsonbatch@HOTMAIL.COM>
>
>Has anyone noticed that the more a person WRITES to TANGO-L, the less that
>person actually Tangos?
>
I didn't notice that, and don't see how I could, since I don't actually know
most of the people on tango-l, much less know how often they dance.
Besides, I don't know who you would mean that WRITES a lot to tango-l. One
of the things
I like about this group is that it isn't dominated by a few people who chime
in on every discussion.
People seem to post when they have something to say, and lay out when they
don't, and lots
of different people contribute.
Anyway, on to my main point - speaking of "joy", you wrote:
>I ask because the recent thread of thought of being turned away from a
>dance
>is devastating to me as a leader. It is harsh treatment, even in the
>'nice'
>state of Minnesota. Dancers try to get along at least for one dance rather
>than commit the offence of outright rejection. Subtle avoidance is OK, but
>outright rejection - never.
>
To me, one of the characteristics of tango is that it is, or should be,
physically and emotionally intense. Because of this closeness and
intensity, it isn't something to do with just anybody. Women and men should
have the right to decline to dance with anybody they don't want to be very
close to. In my opinion, it isn't the woman who rejected you who commited
an "offense", it is YOU who committed the offense by putting her in a
position where she had to reject you outright to avoid dancing with you.
That was my main point, but here is an afterthought - I'm always pleased and
flattered when a woman asks me to dance, and I admire the woman for taking
the initiative. The fact that the woman invited me has alway been enough to
generate warm feelings that make me want to dance with her, and I don't
think I've ever declined such an invitation. (I might DEFER the invitation
if, for example, I really didn't like the music). (This was an answer to an
old question from Astrid.)
"Ricardo"
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 14:24:51 +1000
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Tango-philes - Ode to Joy
it seems that around 16/06/04 5:08 AM, Gibson Batch at
gibsonbatch@HOTMAIL.COM wrote (among other things):
> Has anyone noticed that the more a person WRITES to TANGO-L, the less that
> person actually Tangos?
In short, no. I have no evidence other than my own, but no, I do not think
this is true. If anything, I am more likely to write (to this, and other
lists) when inspired by a burst of dance-intensive days. Perhaps Gibson has
done some kind of survey of dancing hours vs words posted? Or perhaps he
means this is true only for himself?
This thinly-veiled insult is raised periodically on this list. Please, all
you people who regularly write interesting, provocative, or even annoying
stuff to tango-l, keep writing! And dancing too...
Anyway, if anyone has a problem with someone else's writing to tango-l, the
solution is clearly at hand - just stop reading!
--
Gary Barnes
Canberra, Australia
"more tango, more often"
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:41:42 +1000
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Tango-philes - Ode to Joy
it seems that around 16/06/04 5:08 AM, Gibson Batch at
gibsonbatch@HOTMAIL.COM wrote (among other things):
> I ask because the recent thread of thought of being turned away from a dance
> is devastating to me as a leader. It is harsh treatment, even in the 'nice'
> state of Minnesota. Dancers try to get along at least for one dance rather
> than commit the offence of outright rejection. Subtle avoidance is OK, but
> outright rejection - never.
I really don't understand this interpretation of 'no' as some kind of
hostile act.
I understand the _feeling_ - I go to ask someone to dance, she says 'no
thankyou', I feel stupid. Especially as a beginner leader, it hurts, because
you already feel inadequate. I think it is probably more intense, though no
less hurtful, than the emotional pain of followers who are never asked. And
occasionally, I have received eye contact that seems to roughly translate as
'you've got to be joking' - which hurts more, of course!
But an 'offence'? Well, no, it isn't.
Just because I feel bad, doesn't mean the other person has to change. As in
the rest of life, honesty is almost always modified by politeness, but in
the end, it is just someone saying 'no, I don't want to dance with you
now/this tanda/tonight/until you are a better dancer/ever'. She is fully
entitled to say this.
And if I have pushed the point by marching right up to her, hand extended,
then it is I who have raised the stakes.
If she says no, I have to deal with my hurt feelings - hopefully in the next
few seconds or minutes. And if I realise, over time, that this woman really
doesn't want to dance with me for some time, or ever, I would rather know
that than have some exaggerated politeness hide that useful, though painful,
truth.
A year later, we may each make a different choice as to whether to ask, and
whether to say yes.
Most people do their best to soften the blow of 'no' - but not by always
saying yes. I am sure that many women have danced with me out of politeness,
or kindness, especially when I was a complete beginner. For this, I am
grateful. But I do not expect it, and feel no disrespect from or to someone
who simply says or indicates 'no'.
When a follower is honest in saying no - whatever her reason - it seems very
negative and unnecessary to be bearing a grudge as Gibson describes, and
this seems much more of a problem in a dance community than someone saying
'no' once!
--
Gary Barnes
Canberra, Australia
"more tango, more often"
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 18:49:09 +1000
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Re: Tango-philes - Ode to Joy
it seems that around 16/06/04 5:08 AM, Gibson Batch at
gibsonbatch@HOTMAIL.COM wrote (among other things):
>
> But I see this joy expressed rarely on Tango-L, so I don't get it.
>
So many things from one message....
To the heart of what I think Gibson was saying - there have been many
messages over the years I have been on tango-l about joy, love, ecstasy,
transcendence etc. But yes, there have been many more about technical
aspects, organising, dealing with problems, pedagogy, musicology, etc.
Partly I think this reflects the interests of those in the group, but more
particularly, what they are interested in _discussing_, especially in print.
For myself, I would generally rather communicate feelings about tango by
dancing. Tango-L is very useful for everything else!
Also, there is always a lot unsaid. I guess I could preface every message
with 'I love tango, and the way I feel when dancing well, and the swirl of
music and movement in my mind and body, the passion of joy and pain it
expresses...' etc, but (a) it would get repetitive, and (b) I ain't no poet.
So just take it as understood.
good tangos, and tango-related discussions, to all
--
Gary Barnes
Canberra, Australia
"more tango, more often"
Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2004 08:31:49 -0700
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango-philes - Ode to Joy
> I understand the _feeling_ - I go to ask someone to
> dance, she says 'no
> thank you', I feel stupid. Especially as a beginner
> leader, it hurts, because
> you already feel inadequate. I think it is probably
> more intense, though no
> less hurtful, than the emotional pain of followers
> who are never asked.
Sharper than the slowburning humiliation of sitting
for an extended period of time without an invitation,
but to my mind not as distinctly painful as the exact
moment when a guy asks the woman next to you to dance.
Or at least, the second or third time in a row. And
both lead to the ongoing situation where you do not
look to the person to dance, even if you would be
willing to, because you have understood that you are
not a welcome partner. I think I can deal better with
the single refusal - after which I can begin
recovering - than the prolonged period of waiting
during which time there is not much else to think
about. During those periods one tends to become
gloomy, subject to feelings of inadequacy, and then
resentful - and you know none of those make you a
desirable partner.
Thanks, Gary, for the reasonable and good-tempered
posts,
Marisa
