1398 on tango and self-image
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 13:26:27 -0700
From: a tango newbie <tangaux02@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: on tango and self-image
Hi all,
To totally (and momentarily) switch the gears of discussion: I have a question that s been gnawing away at me. I ve tried to dismiss it, but it won t really go away. It has to do with self-image and limitations.
I ve come to accept that there are certain moves in tango I can t, and don t, do because a) I don t have the flexibility, and b) I don t really have the figure for it either.
I m on the short side (5 3 ) and have a small bone frame, but I ve always been borderline overweight (until very recently). Other than self-consciousness, I ve never had any major body issues--I ve often described myself as zaftig. And it was certainly not an issue when I started taking classes in tango. But once in a rare while, something will come up to bite me in the butt (excuse the bad pun) and remind me of my limitations.
The first time was in a workshop--we learned a little bit about the technique of self-ganchos. The instructor mentioned that the heel has to brush by the hipbone. But because I carry a fair amount of my weight around my hips and thighs, I couldn t get my heel past mid-thigh. And we did this move over and over again. And over and over again, I felt I couldn t do it. In the back of my mind, I got this niggling feeling that if I couldn t do this move, then my tango repertoire would be less than normal. But it was an isolated experience, and didn t bother me much.
Very recently, I watched some of my instructors practicing lifts. It looked like fun, and I enjoyed watching them, but I m very firm about tango lifts: I don t do them, period. I m not used to being picked up; when it happens, usually in a bear hug, I m always surprised. At any rate, someone made the mistake of trying to lift me onto his hip (it wasn t meant to be a tango lift), and made the bigger mistake of pointing out that I was bottom heavy. I could have killed him for saying that; I ve been all too aware of this fact for as long as I can remember. Instead, I turned on my heel and walked away; it was all I could do to refrain from saying, Don t ever do that again.
The moves I described don t really seem to have a place on a social dance floor, so I guess it would seem to be pointless to worry about my inability to do them.
At the same time, my slight discomfiture about my body tends to permeate my dancing at times. I try to make up for my perceived heaviness by trying to keep on axis as much as possible. I start to get a little scared when I see calesitas coming, because I don t really like to lean on my partner, even though I know he would be able to support me. I m very leery of any sort of ganchos. And I always get a little wistful when I see slender women, young or old, able to do what I cannot. I know it s kind of an absurd feeling to have, but there you have it.
I guess my question is if anyone has had any similar hang-ups, significant or not, which have colored their dancing, and how they ve handled them. Please email your responses to me privately, as I would like to continue this discussion in that realm. I will do my best to respond in a timely fashion.
Thanks,
ATN
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:11:00 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: on tango and self-image
On tango and heaviness...
I remember a story told to me by a Porland tanguera, a dancer of many
years, who happens to be quite large (and also relatively short). She had
taken a trip to Argentina for a workshop. A young instructor was avoiding
dancing with her, though he was making a point to dance with all of the
other (more slender) women students. An older co-instructor apparently
insisted that he dance with my friend. Afterwards he was amazed and in awe
at her dancing, apologizing and saying that she had "tango in her soul," as
indeed she has.
Notwithstanding the elegance of long lines from long legs, tango is
more about the feeling than the look.
J
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 21:19:09 -0500
From: Bibi Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: on tango and self-image
I agree with Jay, if the emphasis is on line and appearance, we would have
abandoned most of the close embrance style long time ago. I hate to trigger
another landmine, may be some people prefer ballroom dance (tango or others)
because of its emphsis on appearance?
Ray's story shows that big person does not have to be heavy. Alternatively,
small person may not be light either.
Iit is very much in the art of finding that balance of weight and
counterweight between the couples.
Last but not least, I wish to point out that there are studies confirming
that women tend to have more inferior complex about their bodies than the
men.
No one is perfect.
And if one has to measure the physical fitness for both genders with the
same keeness, I fear that a lot of milongueros will fail miserably. But
some of them may be excellent dancers who know what style(s) fit them best.
Bibi
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 15:41:24 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: on tango and self-image
Isn't anyone else a little upset by this message? A person who describes
herself as a "tango Newbie" is being taught "self-ganchos"? (what is
that, anyway?) The instructor mentioned that the heel has to brush by
the hipbone? Tango lifts? Leaders lifting followers onto their hips?
Without permission???
To say that none of this belongs on the social dance floor is an
understatement. Tango is all about making the follower look and feel
beautiful. I may only be 105 pounds, but men don't get to pick me up
anytime they want.
Who are these teachers? What about a lovely, connected, simple, musical,
walking dance? This woman is going to lose interest in tango, and I
don't blame her.
Lois Donnay
612.822.8436
www.donnay.net
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of a tango newbie
> Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 3:26 PM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: [TANGO-L] on tango and self-image
>
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> To totally (and momentarily) switch the gears of discussion:
> I have a question that s been gnawing away at me. I ve tried
> to dismiss it, but it won t really go away. It has to do
> with self-image and limitations.
>
> I ve come to accept that there are certain moves in tango I
> can t, and don t, do because a) I don t have the flexibility,
> and b) I don t really have the figure for it either.
>
> I m on the short side (5 3 ) and have a small bone frame, but
> I ve always been borderline overweight (until very recently).
> Other than self-consciousness, I ve never had any major body
> issues--I ve often described myself as zaftig. And it was
> certainly not an issue when I started taking classes in
> tango. But once in a rare while, something will come up to
> bite me in the butt (excuse the bad pun) and remind me of my
> limitations.
>
> The first time was in a workshop--we learned a little bit
> about the technique of self-ganchos. The instructor
> mentioned that the heel has to brush by the hipbone. But
> because I carry a fair amount of my weight around my hips and
> thighs, I couldn t get my heel past mid-thigh. And we did
> this move over and over again. And over and over again, I
> felt I couldn t do it. In the back of my mind, I got this
> niggling feeling that if I couldn t do this move, then my
> tango repertoire would be less than normal. But it was an
> isolated experience, and didn t bother me much.
>
> Very recently, I watched some of my instructors practicing
> lifts. It looked like fun, and I enjoyed watching them, but
> I m very firm about tango lifts: I don t do them, period. I
> m not used to being picked up; when it happens, usually in a
> bear hug, I m always surprised. At any rate, someone made
> the mistake of trying to lift me onto his hip (it wasn t
> meant to be a tango lift), and made the bigger mistake of
> pointing out that I was bottom heavy. I could have killed
> him for saying that; I ve been all too aware of this fact for
> as long as I can remember. Instead, I turned on my heel and
> walked away; it was all I could do to refrain from saying,
> Don t ever do that again.
>
> The moves I described don t really seem to have a place on a
> social dance floor, so I guess it would seem to be pointless
> to worry about my inability to do them.
>
> At the same time, my slight discomfiture about my body tends
> to permeate my dancing at times. I try to make up for my
> perceived heaviness by trying to keep on axis as much as
> possible. I start to get a little scared when I see
> calesitas coming, because I don t really like to lean on my
> partner, even though I know he would be able to support me.
> I m very leery of any sort of ganchos. And I always get a
> little wistful when I see slender women, young or old, able
> to do what I cannot. I know it s kind of an absurd feeling
> to have, but there you have it.
>
> I guess my question is if anyone has had any similar
> hang-ups, significant or not, which have colored their
> dancing, and how they ve handled them. Please email your
> responses to me privately, as I would like to continue this
> discussion in that realm. I will do my best to respond in a
> timely fashion.
>
> Thanks,
>
> ATN
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 14:28:25 -0700
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: on tango and self-image
--- Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET> wrote:
> Isn't anyone else a little upset by this message?
I'm wih you Lois, there is nothing about dancing that
should make someone feel uncomfortable about
themselves, in fact I would hope that it does quite
the opposite to someone's self image.
> beautiful. I may only be 105 pounds, but men don't
> get to pick me up
> anytime they want.
Absolutely. I think that the original message
indicated that incident was inappropriate and she
responded to it well.
One of the things that really struck me when I first
began to learn tango was how beautiful all the women
were. There were women of every shape and size and
age. But sitting, walking, standing, the way they
carried themselves was so proud I was envious. And
when they danced....well...they were goddesses. I
wanted to learn how to be like that.
I really think that being sexy and beautiful is more
about attitude than anything else. In the past two
years that I've been dancing tango I feel this might
be the most valuable thing I've learned about myself.
There may some steps that are easier to execute with
certain muscle tone. But mostly no, if you can walk
you can tango. And of course the followers know that
everything is completely optional. If you aren't
comfortable with something a leader is asking of you,
don't do it. We are in charge of our own bodies.
Another thing I'd like to address, there were some
messages recently about whether mistakes were the
fault of the leader or the follower etc. That whole
concept seems small minded to me. What are these
"mistakes", are people so conciously evaluating each
others dancing? What is going on here? I don't dance
"steps" I dance tango. There are no mistakes, it is a
continous experience. I dance with my heart, and my
connection with my partner is what matters, not
whether we are executing the moves correctly. For me,
what others might have considered mistakes have often
resulted in some of the most surprising, fun,
interesting and beautiful experiences.
So, to the tango newbie I say, be proud of who you are
and use what you've got girl!
Regards,
Rose
Portland, OR
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 17:24:40 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: on tango and self-image
Rose (Razor Girl) wrote:
>Another thing I'd like to address, there were some
>messages recently about whether mistakes were the
>fault of the leader or the follower etc. That whole
>concept seems small minded to me. What are these
>"mistakes", are people so conciously evaluating each
>others dancing? What is going on here? I don't dance
>"steps" I dance tango. There are no mistakes, it is a
>continous experience. I dance with my heart, and my
>connection with my partner is what matters, not
>whether we are executing the moves correctly. For me,
>what others might have considered mistakes have often
>resulted in some of the most surprising, fun,
>interesting and beautiful experiences.
I am with Rose on this. When we are dancing tango, we can have a much
more interesting experience if we focus on the music and our partner
rather than whether either of us are executing moves properly.
There is a folk song that has a line, "When you go through life make this
your goal, watch the donut, not the hole." For me, watching for my
mistakes our my partner's mistakes is looking at the hole.
Personally, I found that some absolutely wonderful tango experiences
seduced me into seeking perfection, which led me to blame myself and my
partners (often without their knowledge) for "mistakes" that kept the
dance short of perfection. I have recognized my perfectionist ways and am
somewhat reformed. I contributed an essay a while back to Tango-L about
searcing for the perfect tango
<https://www.tejastango.com/perfect_tango.html>. My own belief is that we
cannot find heaven when we are seeking perfection.
Classes and practicas are the time to focus on refining technique and
building knowledge. But even here, I have found through my own experience
that attempting to answer the question about whose mistake it is leads to
more trouble than most of us really like.
Seeking heaven rather than perfection,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
I really think that being sexy and beautiful is more
about attitude than anything else. In the past two
years that I've been dancing tango I feel this might
be the most valuable thing I've learned about myself.
There may some steps that are easier to execute with
certain muscle tone. But mostly no, if you can walk
you can tango. And of course the followers know that
everything is completely optional. If you aren't
comfortable with something a leader is asking of you,
don't do it. We are in charge of our own bodies.
Another thing I'd like to address, there were some
messages recently about whether mistakes were the
fault of the leader or the follower etc. That whole
concept seems small minded to me. What are these
"mistakes", are people so conciously evaluating each
others dancing? What is going on here? I don't dance
"steps" I dance tango. There are no mistakes, it is a
continous experience. I dance with my heart, and my
connection with my partner is what matters, not
whether we are executing the moves correctly. For me,
what others might have considered mistakes have often
resulted in some of the most surprising, fun,
interesting and beautiful experiences.
So, to the tango newbie I say, be proud of who you are
and use what you've got girl!
Regards,
Rose
Portland, OR
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 15:53:07 -0700
From: a tango newbie <tangaux02@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: on tango and self-image
Hi all,
oh dear, where to begin? I meant to email this to Lois alone, but I thought maybe the list would benefit from my reply:
First, I have to admit that I've considered changing my pseudonym. I've been dancing tango for about a year now--enough to be a fairly decent dancer thus far (so I'm told), but not NEAR enough time to be considered experienced. As such, "tango newbie" would be accurate by BsAs standards, certainly, and even by North American standards, I suppose. But at the same time, in an English context, it's misleading because people see it, they think "total beginner"--which I'm not. So, I'm on the fence: keep the name or ditch it?
Secondly, I don't know the term for self-ganchos--front boleos? I'm always confused about tango terms. At any rate, in retrospect, I agree it was not the best judgment to be learning that figure when I'd only taken classes for a few months. In my oh-so-feeble defense, the workshop didn't specify an ability level--it was open to everyone.
Thirdly, the "tango lifts" I described were where the leader lifts the follower straight up into the air, not onto the hip. (Although I've seen lifts onto the leader's leg...?) Four instructors--my official teacher, a couple whose practicas I attend, and another instructor--were practicing the vertical lifts *in a separate room* away from the milonga. They were experimenting with each other; they were NOT teaching students. Still, it was fun to watch.
And to be fair, the couple whose practicas I attend dance a restrained, very elegant style on the floor that's mesmerizing to watch. And at their practicas, they're really good about teaching the fine details of solid tango fundamentals--I've benefited greatly from them. My official teacher is also very good about teaching technique.
The person who tried to lift me onto his hip was NOT doing a tango-related lift. A strange lift, yes, and perhaps uncalled for, but it wasn't tango.
Hope this helps,
ATN (considering another name)
P.S. And no, I'm not going to leave tango anytime soon. :) Trust me.
Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET> wrote:
Isn't anyone else a little upset by this message? A person who describes
herself as a "tango Newbie" is being taught "self-ganchos"? (what is
that, anyway?) The instructor mentioned that the heel has to brush by
the hipbone? Tango lifts? Leaders lifting followers onto their hips?
Without permission???
To say that none of this belongs on the social dance floor is an
understatement. Tango is all about making the follower look and feel
beautiful. I may only be 105 pounds, but men don't get to pick me up
anytime they want.
Who are these teachers? What about a lovely, connected, simple, musical,
walking dance? This woman is going to lose interest in tango, and I
don't blame her.
Lois Donnay
612.822.8436
www.donnay.net
Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 08:15:23 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: on tango and self-image
> Isn't anyone else a little upset by this message? A person who describes
> herself as a "tango Newbie" is being taught "self-ganchos"? (what is
> that, anyway?) The instructor mentioned that the heel has to brush by
> the hipbone? Tango lifts? Leaders lifting followers onto their hips?
> Without permission???
I believe, the "self gancho" is a newbie's coinage for boleos. Right ?
>
