3550  Tango Styles in Bs. As.

Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 15:16:06 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango Styles in Bs. As.

Tom Stermitz just came back from Bs.As. and tells us: " The dance style in
all the milongas we attended (downtown) was 95% milonguero. "

He adds "I'm not saying that the "tango of the 1940s" doesn't exist, I just
didn't see it. Maybe someone can provide a list of milongas where
this style is still practiced. "

I entirely agree with Tom's impressions in general except that I would like
to know what the differences are between ***"Milonguero style" and
"Traditional tango close embrace"***.

I would like to say, as well, that traditional tango of the 1940's had and
still does have an open embrace and a close embrace, it can be danced with
or without firuletes (embellishments).

It probably has all, or most of the figures of any of the other styles.

So my question to our group is : What are the difference between "milonguero
style" as danced and taught by Susana Miller, Cacho Dante and Tete, and
"traditional salon style close embrace" (tango of the 1940s) .

Sergio

Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:18:13 -0500
From: Susan Munoz <susanmunoz@9DOTSOLUTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles in Bs. As.

Sergio asks: "What are the differences between "milonguero style" as
danced and taught by Susana Miller, Cacho Dante and Tete, and
"traditional salon style close embrace?" Hopefully the Tom Stermitz,
the Robert Hauk's, the Robin Thomas' and other experts will respond. In
the meantime, I'll share my thoughts as I "feel" them as a follower.

First of all, I am not an expert by any means. In fact, I would barely
consider myself an intermediate follower in salon, both open and close
embrace and fast becoming a seasoned beginning follower in the
Apilado/Milonguero style which I so passionately enjoy. So -- the
thoughts I share here are just that: thoughts and what I am
understanding but more importantly what I am feeling. To me, there is a
huge difference that I physically feel in my body. I certainly am not
saying either is right or wrong or good or bad, but, rather, is
decidedly different.

The first is that many of the advanced salon leaders step somewhere
between the front of the arch and the ball of the foot. Many of the
advanced apilado-milonguero leaders I have danced with step with the
heel first, followed by a "flattened" arch and rolling off the ball and
the toes. As a follower, what this does, for me, is give a far more
solid connection "through" the sternum and creates a comfortable
heavyiness to the lower part of the body, with a lightness in the upper
half. If the leader's centers are totally aligned, as well as mine, the
axis can be shared. It allows me to both feel his lead better and
listen to his intention. That allows me to get inside the music.

The second thing that I have noticed is that in the Apilado/Milonguero
Style, I am more in front of him (sternum-to-sternum or buttons-to
buttons) than when I dance Salon close embrace. In Salon close embrace,
my right shoulder is more often somewhere between the sternum and his
left shoulder. Some leaders in the Apilado/Milonguero style want a more
torso-to-torso lead; for me, I prefer no connection below the rib cage
so I have better control of the straight leg movement starting at the
rib cage. The "V" is significantly less and in the super-advanced
leaders feels non-existent. It is here that I can litterly feel his
heart beat. I didn't think that could happen. It does! :-)

The best thing of all (again, this is just for me and my preference) is
that there is significantly less arm movement, if any. Technique in
this style (while important in all styles) becomes even more critical
and often seems unforgiving. For example, if either partner is tired
and slumps the slightest, the impact is even more apparent. In tight
corkscrew (turn on a dime) turns, either can pull his partner off their
axis. Sure they can do that in Salon, but even quicker in
Apilado/Milonguero because these turns are within such a tight,
sternum-to-sternum embrace.

As a very tall person, if I dance with you, Sergio (which I love to do),
I need to take a different frame, and put a little more tone in my arms
(that's neither good nor bad). If I dance with Robert Hauk (which I
also love to do), I need to ensure I have lighter tone (in fact, if I'm
really listening and feeling his lead, I don't need any arms) but a
heavier presence and if I dance with Robin Thomas (which I love to do)
-- I do exactly the same thing. What I have found of particular
interest is that it's more difficult for me to dance with leaders of a
significant height difference in Salon (close embrace) than those
leaders of Apilado/Milonguero. A good (no matter how short)
Apilado/Milonguero leader feels as good to dance with as those my height
and taller. Why? It's in the technique differences between
Apilado/Milonguero and Salon Close Embrace, notwithstanding experience.

What feels to be happening (as their lead is transmitted into my body)
is that they are moving forward at a very, very slight angle and as the
trailing foot is coming from behind, their chest is moving "through" me.
This causes a slight collection (not stopping) and we are more in sync.
If I'm really in tune and can let go and quit thinking, I can even feel
the leader's hip drop which causes that slight collection feel.

Again, I am only a beginning student in this style but I have had the
good fortunate of learning from the leaders of this style and dancing
with some of the best leaders in both styles and to me, there is an
absolute difference in what I feel between Salon Close Embrace and
Apilado/Milonguero. I enjoy both styles and figure it's up to me to
adjust to the lead. In the meantime, I'm counting down the hours to go
to St. Louis where Susana Miller will be accompanied by Robert Hauk.
Heaven is surely just around the corner!

Thanks for listening -- hopefully, we'll get the experts to respond. I
can only respond from what I personally feel.

For those celebrating the 4th -- Have a great holiday

With kind regards,
Susan



-----Original Message-----

Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2005 10:16 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango Styles in Bs. As.


Tom Stermitz just came back from Bs.As. and tells us: " The dance
style in
all the milongas we attended (downtown) was 95% milonguero. "

He adds "I'm not saying that the "tango of the 1940s" doesn't exist, I
just didn't see it. Maybe someone can provide a list of milongas where
this style is still practiced. "

I entirely agree with Tom's impressions in general except that I would
like to know what the differences are between ***"Milonguero style" and
"Traditional tango close embrace"***.

I would like to say, as well, that traditional tango of the 1940's had
and still does have an open embrace and a close embrace, it can be
danced with or without firuletes (embellishments).

It probably has all, or most of the figures of any of the other styles.

So my question to our group is : What are the difference between
"milonguero style" as danced and taught by Susana Miller, Cacho Dante
and Tete, and "traditional salon style close embrace" (tango of the
1940s) .

Sergio

Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 12:12:48 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles in Bs. As.

A couple weeks ago Sergio offered a tango taxonomy based on a decade-
by-decade concept:
- Canyengue (something historic)
- Tango liso (walked tango devoid of any embellishments, not even
ochos)
- Tango of the 1940s (tango liso plus turns, sacadas, ganchos,
boleos, amagues, enrosques, barridas, paradas, etc.
- Tango of the 50s (rhythmic walks, some turns, the ocho cortado
- Fantasia (tango of the 1940s plus dramatic pauses with
embellishments by both partners)
- Nuevo Tango (counter rotation, it has movements of opposition,
frequent hooks and heel sacadas)

I have a couple problems with this list.
- I've never actually seen Canyengue or Tango Liso on the dance floor
- Sergio's categories don't differentiate very well the tango of
the 1940s, fantasia, and Nuevo
- Applying them in milongas in Buenos Aires points to 95% milonguero,
- Maybe finer categories are necessary to understand the variety of
social-tango styles


To make it more useful, I would not use a decade by decade naming
scheme, althought they all have their roots in the appearance and
vocabulary of the tango of the 1935-1955 time period.

I would make different observations to distinguish between styles,
starting with:
- Social vs stage
- Decisions about navigation, line of dance and choice of figures
- Internal communication vs External presentation for an audience
- Open vs close, Shared vs separate axis
- Traditional appearance or not


Milonguero Style
- Figures, Navigation, Decorations and Pacing appropriate to a very
crowded social dance floor
- Very close embrace, rarely if ever opening the embrace,
- Shared or unified axis between the couple, independent axes may
or may not be retained
- Ochos frequently have little or no pivot, use of ocho cortados
more frequent than front ochos
- Lots of subtle body-to-body messages


Social Salon Tango
- Figures, Navigation, Decorations and Pacing appropriate to a
social dance floor
- Fairly close embrace, but permitting a little elasticity so the
hips can pivot, but no breaking of the embrace
- Independent Axes maintained, unity more in the embrace than in
sharing body-to-body connection.
- Emphasis on pivoting ochos, turns with sacadas, feet on the
floor, decorations within the couple so not to affect other dancers
- Figures take more precedence of body-to-body subtleties


Fantasy/Stage
- Figures, use of stage expanse for visual variety, Pacing and
Decorations designed to present a show to an audience
- Open, dynamic embrace to emphasize visual lines and show off the
figures and decorations
- Typically a presentation of traditional Social Salon Tango
appearance, but made large, dynamic and showy for an audience
- Choreography, athleticism and practice to incorporate ideas from
Ballet, Modern, Ballroom, etc
- Common use of decorations that are dynamic and outside the
embrace, such as large boleos, ganchos, etc


Nuevo Style (New American Style?)
- Use the possibilities and movements of all the styles,
- Abandon the goal of "looking like" traditional tango
- Common use of decorations that are dynamic and outside the
embrace, such as large boleos, ganchos, etc
- Frequent use of non-traditional movements: volcadas, colgadas,
opening of the embrace, bending at the waist


Nuevo Methodology
- Analysis of possible tango movements, trying things in reverse,
mirrored, on the other side
- Taking elements from both follower and leader roles, swapping of
lead & follow
- Structural approach using awareness from modern dance of ballet
such as rebound, counter-body, counter-balance, etc
- Can be applied to any of the above styles



These definitions are more flexible than Sergio's.

- You can use them to understand a variety of merged or cross-over
styles.
- You can watch a milonga and get a feel for the "group consensus"
- You can see which Style or "Conceptual Vision of Tango" seems
strongest in a particular dancer's mind.
- You can see what is in a teacher's mind when they present a tango
class.


Whether I use Sergio's or my catetories, at the milongas I attended
in Buenos Aires, I noticed that 95% of the dancing was milonguero.
The most visible aspect of that is the frequent use of ocho cortado,
very close body-to-body communication with subtle messages and
navigation & figures appropriate to a very crowded dance floor.

Of the 5% non-milonguero there was a high percentage of beginner or
foreigner. I'm willing to believe that there are milongas where other
styles are the majority. But, it seems to me a style guide to the
milongas of Buenos Aires would be helpful for people who want to find
their preferred style.


In the US (where I have travelled moderately but not extensively),
tango styles have diversified considerably from 10 or even 5 years
ago when 90% of the dancing at milongas had to be defined as "Fantasy
Tango done in a social setting". You have to call it fantasy because
of the frequent use of ganchos and boleos, wide-open embrace, and the
absence of any adherence to a line of dance.

Today I'm guessing that the percentages in the US (which will vary
depending on the city) may be something like the following:
- 20% Milonguero
- 20% Social Salon
- 40% Fantasy
- 20% Nuevo

Should we do a survey of US cities?




On Jun 28, 2005, at 9:16 AM, Sergio Vandekier wrote:

> Tom Stermitz just came back from Bs.As. and tells us: " The dance
> style in
> all the milongas we attended (downtown) was 95% milonguero. "
>
> He adds "I'm not saying that the "tango of the 1940s" doesn't
> exist, I just
> didn't see it. Maybe someone can provide a list of milongas where
> this style is still practiced. "
>
> I entirely agree with Tom's impressions in general except that I
> would like
> to know what the differences are between ***"Milonguero style" and
> "Traditional tango close embrace"***.
>
> I would like to say, as well, that traditional tango of the 1940's
> had and
> still does have an open embrace and a close embrace, it can be
> danced with
> or without firuletes (embellishments).
>
> It probably has all, or most of the figures of any of the other
> styles.
>
> So my question to our group is : What are the difference between
> "milonguero
> style" as danced and taught by Susana Miller, Cacho Dante and Tete,
> and
> "traditional salon style close embrace" (tango of the 1940s) .
>
> Sergio

Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 11:28:53 -0700
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles in Bs. As.

For me the biggest difference is in how one dances to
the music. It seems much more rhythmic than salon
close-embrace. Of course, that could just be a
training issue.

Rhythmically, it is the difference between milonga and
milonga traspie. Milonguero dancers take to traspie
like ducks to water. All the salon dancers I know
have a much harder time learning traspie (including us
before we concentrated heavily on apilado).

If we take the 8 count base, a salon dancer would take
8 beats. A milonguero dancer would probably do the
same pattern in 6 beats with two or three syncopations
thrown in.

One concept.

Trini de Pittsburgh


--- Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
wrote:

> So my question to our group is : What are the
> difference between "milonguero
> style" as danced and taught by Susana Miller, Cacho
> Dante and Tete, and
> "traditional salon style close embrace" (tango of
> the 1940s) .

PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm

Date: Tue, 28 Jun 2005 17:45:08 -0500
From: Susan Munoz <susanmunoz@9DOTSOLUTIONS.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango Styles in Bs. As.-thank you

Bless you Ramiro, but it is the Susana Miller's, Cacho Dante's, Alicia
Pons, Robert Hauk's, Barbara Durr's, Robin Thomas', Jennifer Bratt's,
Tom Stermitz' and other instructors (yet unnamed) who deserve the
credit. It is through their arduous instruction that the depth of this
style is starting to unfold in the States. Equally important are the
Sergio's, the Michael's, the Ray's, the Sean's, the David's, the Ron's
and others who have been so gracious to either gently offer
opportunities for improvement or to give solicited feedback. That, is
the only way I can continue to improve.

The funny, but sad part of 'my' story (and we all have them) is that
less than one year ago, I attended an Apilado-Milonguero workshop and
didn't know it. I thought they danced weird. It was by joining Tango-L
and observing the passionate debates (flame wars) that I discovered I
was at an unconscious incompetency level. When I put away my own
biases, it allowed me to 'start' to learn.

When you speak of me being a nice dancer, I prefer a reference to a
different part of the anatomy ;-))) like the heart. "Beauty is in the
eye of the beholder." So, too is dance. There are some with whom you
have a beautiful connectiion and others, well, it just doesn't work so
well.

Take care