2535  Tango teachers that hurt the community

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:39:24 -0700
From: roberto vermais <odioesteamor@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Tango teachers that hurt the community

Why are there tango teachers out there teaching beginner students to walk by landing on the ball of their foot? almost none of the leaders get it right and then they are off-balance and frustrated from the start. This leads to a slew of other problems regarding posture, leading, etc. In the end, the ones that suffer are the followers of the community because the beginner leaders either quit or continue with their flawed technique and push them around.


For a double whammy, these teachers will usually throw in the 8 count basic of tango and then leaders will be sitting ducks on the milonga floor.


It is my opinion that teachers who teach this are not social dancers. they are just stage (or wanna-be) dancers who wouldn't know their way around a milonga floor even if there were arrow signs. these teachers should be banned from teaching because if you can't tear it up on the milonga floor, then you are not a tango dancer and even less so a teacher. PERIOD.

It is my hope that these "chanta" (con men) teachers will be discredited as better teachers/dancers appear in the community and show the community what tango dancing should look like and, even better yet, FEEL like.

Roberto

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 15:29:48 GMT
From: michael <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

I don't agree with you. First, beginner leaders don't get ANYTHING right at the beginning. It takes months to dance tango, POORLY. If they don't get used to landing on the ball of the foot, their hips will be forward and their weight on their heels. You can't lead with your chest if you're back on your heels. I know. I used to dance on my heels. I took my teacher's advice of practicing with heeless shoes. (I sliced off the heel with the amazing Ginzu knife I bought 25 years ago. Still sharp, as the advertisement stated.)

Another reason leaders are off balance is they don't turn their foot out (heel in) so that when their foot rolls along the outside edge of the shoe, they have balance.

Next, my teacher DOESN'T teach the 8 count basic. He is a social dancer, not a con man.

Lastly, if you want good instruction, come to the New York tango festival July 22-25. Their web page is www.celebratetango.com. I'll be there.

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Coming to NY this weekend and then another 2 weeks to go for the festival


I'd rather be dancing argentine tango

-- roberto vermais <odioesteamor@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
Why are there tango teachers out there teaching beginner students to walk by landing on the ball of their foot? almost none of the leaders get it right and then they are off-balance and frustrated from the start.


For a double whammy, these teachers will usually throw in the 8 count basic of tango and then leaders will be sitting ducks on the milonga floor.

It is my opinion that teachers who teach this are not social dancers.

It is my hope that these "chanta" (con men) teachers will be discredited ...

Roberto

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:27:05 -0700
From: Laura Chummers <lchummers@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

The fact is that both teaching the 8 count basic and walking on the balls of
the feet are useful.

First of the 8 count is a pedagogical tool like the ABC4s the illustrate the
options and breadth of movement that one can expect to encounter in the
dance. Any good teacher explains that it4s rarely a pattern that gets
danced as such on the dance floor.

As for balls of the feet, the lead to the women will never be as clear as it
can be if the man is back weighted on his heels. PUNTO. Also, it4s very
true that being back weighted does lead to other problems like pronating
outwards. However, within the topic of walking on the balls of the feet
there is a whole world of topics---where on the balls of the feet, how one4s
posture needs to be to support that, and so forth.

Nothing in teaching or learning is ever that simple. And for that reason
there are different teachers for different students as well as PHASES of
learning in which certain information "clicks."
Having taught dance for years, I now can appreciate that.

>From: roberto vermais <odioesteamor@YAHOO.COM>
>Reply-To: roberto vermais <odioesteamor@YAHOO.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango teachers that hurt the community
>Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:39:24 -0700
>
>Why are there tango teachers out there teaching beginner students to walk
>by landing on the ball of their foot? almost none of the leaders get it
>right and then they are off-balance and frustrated from the start. This
>leads to a slew of other problems regarding posture, leading, etc. In the
>end, the ones that suffer are the followers of the community because the
>beginner leaders either quit or continue with their flawed technique and
>push them around.
>
>
>For a double whammy, these teachers will usually throw in the 8 count basic
>of tango and then leaders will be sitting ducks on the milonga floor.
>
>
>It is my opinion that teachers who teach this are not social dancers. they
>are just stage (or wanna-be) dancers who wouldn't know their way around a
>milonga floor even if there were arrow signs. these teachers should be
>banned from teaching because if you can't tear it up on the milonga floor,
>then you are not a tango dancer and even less so a teacher. PERIOD.
>
>It is my hope that these "chanta" (con men) teachers will be discredited as
>better teachers/dancers appear in the community and show the community what
>tango dancing should look like and, even better yet, FEEL like.
>
>Roberto
>
>

Watch the online reality show Mixed Messages with a friend and enter to win
a trip to NY
https://www.msnmessenger-download.click-url.com/go/onm00200497ave/direct/01/

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:48:57 EDT
From: Simon3940@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

Roberto, who complains about teaching ball-of-the-foot walking, is naive and
lacks a view of the larger picture. In our school we teach only this method
at the beginning, and if anyone manages to do it, we tell them it's wrong and
then we teach them that walking heels-first is the only way. This serves to
keep them in class longer, and out of the milongas where they will run into
another dancer, who will likely be selling lessons in competition with us.

Assuming I am talking only to teachers here, I will share this as well - we
have had great success with our adjunct language school, where we teach only
accents; much easier for our students, who have become frustrated trying to
learn an actual language - and our teachers require only 3 weeks of training.
Look for our upcoming franchise offer.

Simon @ the Caveat Emptor School of Dance and Creative Attitude

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:52:41 -0700
From: roberto vermais <odioesteamor@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

okay, maybe "beginner leaders don't get ANYTHING right at the beginning", but the way that you described the way you walk confirms my point of view. what is all this nonsense about heel-less shoes and the alignment of your hips related to the ball of the foot. blah, blah, blah. nonsense, nonsense, nonsense.

To paraphrase Nike : "JUST DO IT. JUST WALK" like you do on the street. Land on the heel, roll through your foot, repeat steps 1 & 2.

I don't know your age, but I am sure that you have been walking for over 20 years. why change something you have had the most practice in? there are plenty of master teachers who confirm my view: Metin Yazir, Susanna Miller, Gustavo Naveira, among others. Are you saying that they don't know how to walk and "Joe Tango" from DC or wherever knows better? I think not. Like I said, next to the 8 count basic, the walk is the preferred method used by the "chanta" (con men) tango teachers to frustrate you and make you think that you will never get good at tango and that you must take many, many private lessons from them in order to learn to WALK.

I am on a crusade to end this. Already I can feel the fake tango teachers cowering in their studios because I am exposing them.


michael <tangomaniac@juno.com> wrote:

I don't agree with you. First, beginner leaders don't get ANYTHING right at the beginning. It takes months to dance tango, POORLY. If they don't get used to landing on the ball of the foot, their hips will be forward and their weight on their heels. You can't lead with your chest if you're back on your heels. I know. I used to dance on my heels. I took my teacher's advice of practicing with heeless shoes. (I sliced off the heel with the amazing Ginzu knife I bought 25 years ago. Still sharp, as the advertisement stated.)

Another reason leaders are off balance is they don't turn their foot out (heel in) so that when their foot rolls along the outside edge of the shoe, they have balance.

Next, my teacher DOESN'T teach the 8 count basic. He is a social dancer, not a con man.

Lastly, if you want good instruction, come to the New York tango festival July 22-25. Their web page is www.celebratetango.com. I'll be there.

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Coming to NY this weekend and then another 2 weeks to go for the festival


I'd rather be dancing argentine tango

-- roberto vermais wrote:
Why are there tango teachers out there teaching beginner students to walk by landing on the ball of their foot? almost none of the leaders get it right and then they are off-balance and frustrated from the start.


For a double whammy, these teachers will usually throw in the 8 count basic of tango and then leaders will be sitting ducks on the milonga floor.

It is my opinion that teachers who teach this are not social dancers.

It is my hope that these "chanta" (con men) teachers will be discredited ...

Roberto

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 10:04:49 -0700
From: roberto vermais <odioesteamor@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

Simon3940@AOL.COM wrote: "This serves to keep them in class longer, and out of the milongas where they will run into another dancer, who will likely be selling lessons in competition with us."

You, sir, have just exposed yourself as a "chanta". I am glad to know that creating better dancers and improving your tango community are NOT part of your plan. You are probably the guy who bumped into me on the dance floor while I was in a sweet tango trance with my partner, because you were trying to complete the complicated figure you stole from 1995 VHS of Forever Tango.

Listen buddy, we should want our students to go to the milongas. we should WANT our milongas to be big social affairs where people have fun, and meet up, or even, dare I say it, "hook up". why not? this is tango, it should be fun.

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 02:01:21 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

> I don't know your age, but I am sure that you have been walking for over

20 years. why change something you have had the most practice in? Like I
said, next to the 8 count basic, the walk is the preferred method used by
the "chanta" (con men) tango teachers to frustrate you and make you think
that you will never get good at tango and that you must take many, many
private lessons from them in order to learn to WALK.

I am sorry to tell you that you are in for a bad awakening, Roberto. The
walk is the first and the last thing you will be working on if you ever
attempt to learn tango seriously. Unfortunately, walking the way you walk to
the market to buy a pound of tomatoes is going to get you next to nowhere in
tango, especially not, if you are accompanied by a woman..

>
> I am on a crusade to end this. Already I can feel the fake tango teachers

cowering in their studios because I am exposing them.

And I can see people grinning in front of their computer screens.
Sometimes I am really amazed what odd notions this idea of "here stage
tango- there the real thing" occasionally creates, like people inventing
excuses along the line of "who needs technique, we are genuine social
dancers".

Astrid

>

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 13:17:14 -0400
From: John Gleeson <john.gleeson@COMCAST.NET>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

Lighten up Senor Vermais, Simon was just trying to be funny!

>> In another email from Roberto: I don't know your age, but I am sure that you
>> have been walking for over 20 years. why change something you have had the
>> most practice in?

And it's clear from this posting that for over 20 years you haven't had a developed
sense of humour, so isn't time that you did change ?!!

John G.






----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango teachers that hurt the community

> Simon3940@AOL.COM wrote: "This serves to keep them in class longer, and out of the milongas where they will run into another

dancer, who will likely be selling lessons in competition with us."

>
> You, sir, have just exposed yourself as a "chanta". I am glad to know that creating better dancers and improving your tango

community are NOT part of your plan. You are probably the guy who bumped into me on the dance floor while I was in a sweet tango
trance with my partner, because you were trying to complete the complicated figure you stole from 1995 VHS of Forever Tango.

>
> Listen buddy, we should want our students to go to the milongas. we should WANT our milongas to be big social affairs where people

have fun, and meet up, or even, dare I say it, "hook up". why not? this is tango, it should be fun.

>
>
>
>
>

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 10:21:00 -0700
From: roberto vermais <odioesteamor@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

oh no! John, you're right. I have to lighten up. I now realize that the email was a joke. Sorry Simon!

John Gleeson <john.gleeson@comcast.net> wrote:
Lighten up Senor Vermais, Simon was just trying to be funny!

>> In another email from Roberto: I don't know your age, but I am sure that you
>> have been walking for over 20 years. why change something you have had the
>> most practice in?

And it's clear from this posting that for over 20 years you haven't had a developed
sense of humour, so isn't time that you did change ?!!

John G.






----- Original Message -----

From: "roberto vermais"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango teachers that hurt the community

> Simon3940@AOL.COM wrote: "This serves to keep them in class longer, and out of the milongas where they will run into another

dancer, who will likely be selling lessons in competition with us."

>
> You, sir, have just exposed yourself as a "chanta". I am glad to know that creating better dancers and improving your tango

community are NOT part of your plan. You are probably the guy who bumped into me on the dance floor while I was in a sweet tango
trance with my partner, because you were trying to complete the complicated figure you stole from 1995 VHS of Forever Tango.

>
> Listen buddy, we should want our students to go to the milongas. we should WANT our milongas to be big social affairs where people

have fun, and meet up, or even, dare I say it, "hook up". why not? this is tango, it should be fun.

>
>
>
>
>

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 12:23:22 -0500
From: jak <jak@BAILATANGO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

I agree with Roberto in the fundamental sense. Neither 8 count basic nor
walking on the ball of the feet help beginners.
8 count basic makes beginners do their part instead of leading/following,
and get them use to patterns.
And making beginners walk on the ball of their feet (forward movement),
since it is not the natural way of walking, throws them off balance (unless
they have dance background) and increases the use of arms for balance,
limits their movement.

Those who can dance on the ball of their feet, more power to you. But it is
not realistic to expect beginners to do the same.

As Laura suggested 8 count basic can be introduced later as a learning tool
not as a dance pattern but to communicate positions.

Jak
917 575 1798
www.BailaTango.com
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The fact is that both teaching the 8 count basic and walking on the balls of
the feet are useful.

First of the 8 count is a pedagogical tool like the ABC4s the illustrate the
options and breadth of movement that one can expect to encounter in the
dance. Any good teacher explains that it4s rarely a pattern that gets
danced as such on the dance floor.

As for balls of the feet, the lead to the women will never be as clear as it
can be if the man is back weighted on his heels. PUNTO. Also, it4s very
true that being back weighted does lead to other problems like pronating
outwards. However, within the topic of walking on the balls of the feet
there is a whole world of topics---where on the balls of the feet, how one4s
posture needs to be to support that, and so forth.

Nothing in teaching or learning is ever that simple. And for that reason
there are different teachers for different students as well as PHASES of
learning in which certain information "clicks."
Having taught dance for years, I now can appreciate that.

>From: roberto vermais <odioesteamor@YAHOO.COM>
>Reply-To: roberto vermais <odioesteamor@YAHOO.COM>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango teachers that hurt the community
>Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:39:24 -0700
>
>Why are there tango teachers out there teaching beginner students to walk
>by landing on the ball of their foot? almost none of the leaders get it
>right and then they are off-balance and frustrated from the start. This
>leads to a slew of other problems regarding posture, leading, etc. In the
>end, the ones that suffer are the followers of the community because the
>beginner leaders either quit or continue with their flawed technique and
>push them around.
>
>
>For a double whammy, these teachers will usually throw in the 8 count basic
>of tango and then leaders will be sitting ducks on the milonga floor.
>
>
>It is my opinion that teachers who teach this are not social dancers. they
>are just stage (or wanna-be) dancers who wouldn't know their way around a
>milonga floor even if there were arrow signs. these teachers should be
>banned from teaching because if you can't tear it up on the milonga floor,
>then you are not a tango dancer and even less so a teacher. PERIOD.
>
>It is my hope that these "chanta" (con men) teachers will be discredited as
>better teachers/dancers appear in the community and show the community what
>tango dancing should look like and, even better yet, FEEL like.
>
>Roberto
>
>

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 10:32:57 -0700
From: Ed Loomis <TangoBear@OSBTOWN.COM>
Subject: (fwd) Re: [TANGO-L] Tango teachers that hurt the community

Hi folks,
Well, if we can't entertain each other with flame wars anymore I guess
we will have to settle for mindless rants from the lunatic fringe. After
ten years of ongoing instruction and dancing four or five times a week I
have my own ideas on the subject of using the feet to move with balance and
grace which are based on actual experience as much as any instruction I
have received. Trying to share any of this with our crusading friend will
obviously be an exercise in futility, however, so I will save my breath.
Name dropping is very easy, Roberto, but who are you and how long have
you been dancing tango? What qualifies you to be so rigidly dismissive of
98% of the tango instruction available in the world today? While you're
dropping names, Roberto, don't leave out the late great Lampazo, who also
taught the walk with a heel strike. Of course Lampazo was a gentleman who
treated his colleagues and students with respect regardless of how they
chose to use their feet on the dance floor. But, I cast pearls before
swine! Forgive me. Ciao.........
Ed

On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:52:41 -0700, roberto vermais
<odioesteamor@YAHOO.COM> wrote:

>I am on a crusade to end this. Already I can feel the fake tango teachers cowering in their studios because I am exposing them.

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 20:37:55 GMT
From: michael <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

Yes, I'm been walking for more than 20 years --

With flat feet corrected by orthodotics

Pigeon toed which could only be corrected by training and learning how to walk with my feet pointed out

much better now with Alexander Technique training

It takes skill to walk well. As for my teacher being a con man, women tell him "I can tell who your students are because they move well."

Do you know how to follow? I'd love to see you follow a man who is leading with his pelvis and landing on his heels.

As for the cowering teachers. They are not cowering. They are in their studios ROFLTAO!! (instead of ROFLMAO!!)

Michael
Washington, DC

It's not too late for Roberto to sign up for the NY Tango Festival and learn how to move. It may be too late for him to learn some manners.


Roberto "knows everything" writes:

what is all this nonsense about heel-less shoes and the alignment of your hips related to the ball of the foot. blah, blah, blah. nonsense, nonsense, nonsense.

I don't know your age, but I am sure that you have been walking for over 20 years. why change something you have had the most practice in?

I am on a crusade to end this. Already I can feel the fake tango teachers cowering in their studios because I am exposing them.

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 02:18:31 -0400
From: Miamidances@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Tango Teachers that hurt the community

This is a little short story involving heel leads vrs toe leads. Miami Beach May 2003 USTC Tango Fantasy event, after the IDO Tango Championships. (I hope that this doesnb t start another flame war) Lydia and I did not want to ask one of the 6 teaching couples to sit out judging, we took the chance that their could have been a tie. Guess what? We had a tie, between an Argentine couple and an American-Canadian couple.

We consulted with Juan Carlos Copes and Miguel Angel Zotto. They had a choice of a dance off, or make a command decision. They decided to make the decision. Were they prejudice? Did they choose the Argentine couple? No, they choose the Americanb Canadian couple, and these were the words of Juan Carlos Copes and agreed to by Miguel Angel Zotto, they choose the Americanb Canadian couple because, they respected the toe leads of Argentine tango.

Ballet dancers dance toe first, Ballroom dancers do a combination, depending on what dance they are performing. Ib ve been dancing 30 years professionally, and can dance the lead or follow either way, toe or heel leads with the same strength and control. In smooth dancing we train to step heel to toe, rise to the toe only on the second step, and on the third step lower from the toe to the heal, alternating from right and left starting foot. With training and technique you can accomplish anything.

Tango Forever

Randy Pittman
Miami Fl

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 02:41:29 -0400
From: bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

EVERY dance form puts it balance onto the ball of the foot. Even if the heel is on the floor. Even Hip Hop and Waltz and Foxtrot which generally leads a step with a heel. Weight on the ball of the foot promotes balance to create fluid movement on the floor.

When I was in college, I was required to take 3 credits of Physical Education. Being someone who hated sports, I opted for one of my classes to be "Walking for Life". Now, of course, I thought..an easy A. Well, believe or not, I learned a lot about "proper walking technique" to prevent injury. And do you know why most people have some type of back pain, and scoliosis and spine degeneration? Mainly because even though we are moving naturally in most of our every day tasks, we don't always move correctly. Are spine and hips and muscles get injured because of all the incorrect movement that we do daily. (YEAH for Alexander Technique!!)

So, even if you have walked for 20 years or 40 years or 80 years...doesn't mean you are doing it right. And in dance there is technique to do things right to prevent injury, and ESPECIALLY in any type of partner dance, to correctly communicate your lead (or follow) to your partner. Part of that requires correct balance and posture in your body. If you are not balanced with the majority of your weight on the ball of the foot you will not be communicating your lead, and likely pulling your partner off of his/her foot/balance. It is pertinent for a student to understand this.

Robert, don't expect beginners to get everything right without time and practice. If we didn't have to educate ourselves at the things we attempt to do, then we all could be doctors and mechanics. I'm currently working with professional ballet dancers who despite their understanding of dance technique, struggle understanding tango. It's not an easy dance, and takes patience to learn to do correctly.

An 8 count basic, once again, is nothing more than a structure to build off of. Teaching this doesn't harm the student, and it helps to understand basic foward, sideways and backwards leading as well as the lead of a cruzada. Don't knock it as unnecessary. Yes, the way it is taught is of concern at times, but it is not something we should ignore exists. That's like trying to tell a salsa dancer that it doesn't matter whether you step forward or backwards in a break, or on what beat. It does in order to correctly lead the partner.


Nicole in Miami soon to be in Dublin, Eire





--- On Wed 06/30, roberto vermais < odioesteamor@YAHOO.COM > wrote:

Date: Wed, 30 Jun 2004 07:39:24 -0700
Subject: [TANGO-L] Tango teachers that hurt the community

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:37:51 +0300
From: Juhani Sademaa <jsademaa@WELHO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

Yes, but Roberto talked about "landing on the ball of their foot", not "walking
on the balls of the feet". I also think it is better for a beginning leader to
land on the heels of the feet, but still keep his weight on the balls with a
slight lean. That is not so far from natural walking and enables good enough
and enjoyable dancing.
- JuSa -


Laura Chummers <lchummers@HOTMAIL.COM>:

> The fact is that both teaching the 8 count basic and walking on the balls
> of
> the feet are useful.
>
> >From: roberto vermais <odioesteamor@YAHOO.COM>

> >Why are there tango teachers out there teaching beginner students to walk
> >by landing on the ball of their foot?

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 06:58:06 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

The fact is that teaching people how to dance tango (or anything else I
suppose) is not easy. As for teaching people to walk, it really can be quite
a challenge. It seems that most peoiple who somehow manage to walk into the
class by themselves, immediately forget how to walk when asked to do it
during the class!?! The question of whether the toe or the heel should land
first is more a matter of style. I've been to classes taught by many well
respected teachers and they vary in their teachi4ng. While most of them
teach to land on the ball of the foot, some teach the heel first method. I
think when dancing a close embrace, rhythmic style of tango, it's better for
the man to land heel first. Otherwise, landing on the ball of the foot works
out quite well. As for teachers who are *chantas*. who is to decide?


Grettings to all,

Manuel



visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:49:25 -0700
From: roberto vermais <odioesteamor@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

Manuel,

I agree that tango is difficult to teach, but my whole tirade is based on my feeling that beginners are getting the short end of the stick because they are made to believe that their natural body movements aren't sufficient enough to make them good dancers.

let's suppose that a new tango dancer appeared in the community, and this guy danced rhythmically, sensually, and smoothly BUT HE MOVED LIKE HIMSELF. That's right, he walked like he walks in his everyday routine. His body and mind were calm because he wasn't anxious about landing on the ball of the foot, or projecting a straight leg forward, etc. etc. I highly doubt that he would be critcized, especially by the followers of the community.

also, in your email, you said that many well-respected teachers "teach to land on the ball of the foot"? really? I found that most teachers in Buenos Aires, milongueros and stage dancers alike teach to land on the heel first. Who are the people you are referring to? are they stage dancers? are they non-argentine? who are these people? Let's start dropping some names, especially if they are famous. why? because then we could easily find a video of them dancing/performing that will prove otherwise.

Finally, ask any milonguera, which would they prefer: 1) a man prancing around on the balls of his feet trying to interpret D'Arienzo? or 2) a man walking like a panther, rolling through his feet, discharging his weight into the ground.

WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com> wrote:
The fact is that teaching people how to dance tango (or anything else I
suppose) is not easy. As for teaching people to walk, it really can be quite
a challenge. It seems that most peoiple who somehow manage to walk into the
class by themselves, immediately forget how to walk when asked to do it
during the class!?! The question of whether the toe or the heel should land
first is more a matter of style. I've been to classes taught by many well
respected teachers and they vary in their teachi4ng. While most of them
teach to land on the ball of the foot, some teach the heel first method. I
think when dancing a close embrace, rhythmic style of tango, it's better for
the man to land heel first. Otherwise, landing on the ball of the foot works
out quite well. As for teachers who are *chantas*. who is to decide?


Grettings to all,

Manuel



visit our webpage
www.tango-rio.com

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 20:03:59 -0400
From: bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

Roberto,

You are correct that yes sometimes you will watch a well-respected tango teacher start his step on his heel and roll onto the ball of his foot. The fact is still though, that his weight distribution and balance ends at the ball of his foot. Name dropping: Every teacher I have had, Osvaldo Zotto, Miquel- Angel Zotto, Fernanda and Guillermo, Diego and Carolina, Facundo and Kely, Gavito, and more have said placement on the ball of the foot(all good stage AND milongueros). Now, sometimes beginning get this wrong and believe that the ball of their foot are their toes. And no, there's no tip-toeing around on the balls of the foot, like ballet dancers, but their is a definate weight distribution onto the ball of the foot, whether the heel hits the floor for a split second or not first. The problem is, most beginners and on average most people that are non-dancers, I have found in my 8 years of teaching, don't have their weight distributed correctly on their foot in their "natu
ral" way of moving. Generally it's far back into the arch or close to the front of the heel, hips swayed back and once they get a person in front of them to lead they get farther back onto their foot. It's a difficult concept to make a student understand where to be on their foot and how to move comfortably on a floor.

Teaching dance is like learning to walk all over again. When we were born, we didn't know how to walk right away. It took time to learn to move our body parts, to lift them, to rotate them, then to coordinate them together, then to figure out how to balance ourselves on only two feet. I agree that teachers that teach walking right away from the start are using a wrong approach, because first people have to refamiliarize themselves with their bodies and feel comfortable sharing their movement with another person before learning to walk properly. Otherwise, every muscle in their body stiffens up and they won't find their balance anywhere on their foot. But the ball of the foot is still the ONLY place that their weight can stay strongly distibuted on to maintain balance.

And...to make comments on some of the other threads... YES...PLEASE it would be GREAT if dancers would remember to teach brushing or collecting of the feet before each step.... that's to center your balance before you move to another foot. Also a MUST for good balance.

Nicole
Miami




--- On Thu 07/01, roberto vermais < odioesteamor@YAHOO.COM > wrote:

Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2004 09:49:25 -0700
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango teachers that hurt the community

Manuel,<br><br>I agree that tango is difficult to teach, but my whole tirade is based on my feeling that beginners are getting the short end of the stick because they are made to believe that their natural body movements aren't sufficient enough to make them good dancers.<br><br>let's suppose that a new tango dancer appeared in the community, and this guy danced rhythmically, sensually, and smoothly BUT HE MOVED LIKE HIMSELF. That's right, he walked like he walks in his everyday routine. His body and mind were calm because he wasn't anxious about landing on the ball of the foot, or projecting a straight leg forward, etc. etc. I highly doubt that he would be critcized, especially by the followers of the community.<br><br>also, in your email, you said that many well-respected teachers "teach to land on the ball of the foot"? really? I found that most teachers in Buenos Aires, milongueros and stage dancers alike teach to land on the heel first. Who are the people you are referr
ing to? are they stage dancers? are they non-argentine? who are these people? Let's start dropping some names, especially if they are famous. why? because then we could easily find a video of them dancing/performing that will prove otherwise.<br><br>Finally, ask any milonguera, which would they prefer: 1) a man prancing around on the balls of his feet trying to interpret D'Arienzo? or 2) a man walking like a panther, rolling through his feet, discharging his weight into the ground.<br><br>WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com> wrote:<br>The fact is that teaching people how to dance tango (or anything else I<br>suppose) is not easy. As for teaching people to walk, it really can be quite<br>a challenge. It seems that most peoiple who somehow manage to walk into the<br>class by themselves, immediately forget how to walk when asked to do it<br>during the class!?! The question of whether the toe or the heel should land<br>first is more a matter of style. I've been to classes taught

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 12:09:25 +1000
From: Christine Biles <cbiles@THESENTIENTGROUP.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

Well said!

-----Original Message-----

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 00:39:28 -0400
From: Miamidances@AOL.COM
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

Why do we have so many differing opinions on Argentine Tango? In the ballroom world there are different opinions, but not anywhere near as many, as in A.T. world. In ballroom theyb re two standards, the American standard and the International standard. In the American style thereb s the Arthur Murray studio syllabus, the Fred Astaire studio syllabus, and several independent studio syllabus, the names of steps are different, some have steps that the others donb t have, but the technique is almost the same. The International Syllabus is exactly the same steps and technique throughout the world.

In the Argentine Tango world there is no standard syllabus. After 7 years organizing the USTC Tango Fantasy event in Miami, Ib ve had the privilege of msany interesting conversations about the past and where Tango might go in the future with many of the masters. In one of my conversations with Mr Copes, he told me that they tried to set a syllabus. Copes, Pugliese, Zotto, Gavito, and several other masters got together for this purpose, after 5 hours of discussion, and almost going to the fists, they gave up. They could not even agree on the basic step. If these masters of Tango could not agree on the basic step, I donb t think that we ever will.

We will always have our debates and conversations on what we think is right, and give our opinions of what we have been taught, but the many issues of Tango will never be finalized or agreed upon.

Tango Forever

Randy Pittman
Best of Dance studio, home of the Miami Dance Machine

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 00:04:06 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

Yes, some "great masters" say you MUST step heels first and others say
you MUST step toe first. Therefore, I agree with Lois Donnay that this
indicates that many details of tango are stylistic rather than
fundamental. I would point out that there are a some aspects that are
more fundamental or universal like core strength or axis control.

In addition one should choose technique appropriate to the situation.
What works for one style fails completely for another; what works for a
young athlete or ballerina is not always appropriate for a middle-aged
body.

Then, there is a difficulty with contextual understanding. Ballet
dancers have such specific understanding of certain words, while normal
people are much more casual. You almost need completely different
languages in order to explain what you want.

Finally, a good teacher should prepare their students to succeed in
multiple styles, meaning that a they need to think these issues through
pretty carefully.


Stage or Social?

While most dancers sign up for tango in order to do it as a social
dance activity, a very high percentage of teachers are professional
stage dancers or else they are local teachers who aspire to the
athletic/performance style.

I think this causes the most common problem, which is that many
teachers present difficult, athletic or stage-tango techniques to
people who are not destined to be tango performers. This kind of
inappropriate instruction leads to awkwardness, frustration, and even
injury.


Some examples:

(1) Teaching women to be up on the balls of their feet. Unless you
have a dance background and have strong arches, balance and core
strength, this is exceedingly difficult, causes tension in their legs,
can cause back injuries. Up on the metatarsal, it is difficult for a
woman to avoid the opposite extremes of excessively bent knees
(sneaky-tango?), or stiff-legs.

- Social tango needs the more grounded feeling that you get from
pointing your heels downward (yes, the axis or weight is still over the
metatarsal, but heels are down, not up); A more stylized line might be
appropriate for stage, but not for social dancing.



(2) No move hips!? I think 99% of argentines admonish the women not to
move their hips, but if you watch them, 99% of argentines actually move
their hips. Telling a someone from N. America not to move hips, causes
tight, rigid, non-grounded movements. Tango requires soft hips for
groundedness; milonga without a little hip play is wooden.


(3) Teaching women in social tango to take LOONNGG back-steps. This
doesn't function on the social dance floor, it leads them to bob up and
down, arch their backs or tip their axis forward and back. This is
another contributer to injured backs.

- Step length needs to be APPROPRIATE to the style, and to the way the
leader is moving, not a technique that the woman imposes on the dance.


(4) The 8CB is a time-honored way to choreograph stage figures, but
isn't as useful for teaching social dancers. Teaching the 8CB to a
beginner, takes a man who can easily navigate a crowded cocktail party
without spilling a drink, and gives him a memorized sequence that
removes his natural ability to navigate.

- Using a more flexible approach for beginners (walking/flowing around
the room, or improvising on small-elements), you can teach a guy to
successfully navigate on a crowded floor after one or two lessons.

If you have never visited a community where the 8CB is not the primary
instructional method, you owe it to yourself to see that it makes a
difference. Hard to discuss if you only know one side or the other.
Yes, there are a few communities where the 8CB is marginalized.




On Jun 30, 2004, at 8:39 AM, roberto vermais wrote:

> Why are there tango teachers out there teaching beginner students to
> walk by landing on the ball of their foot? almost none of the leaders
> get it right and then they are off-balance and frustrated from the
> start. This leads to a slew of other problems regarding posture,
> leading, etc. In the end, the ones that suffer are the followers of
> the community because the beginner leaders either quit or continue
> with their flawed technique and push them around.
> ...
> Roberto
>

** Please Update Mailing Address: **

Tom Stermitz
2525 Birch St
Denver, CO 80207
h: 303-388-2560

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 14:02:33 +0200
From: Andreas Wichter <Andreas.Wichter@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: (Tom)Tango teachers that hurt the community

Hello Tom,

excellent post, thorough summary of all points necessary to make on that
subject. Hooray for common sense, and I hope yours is catching. ;-)

Regards,
Andreas

--
"Sie haben neue Mails!" - Die GMX Toolbar informiert Sie beim Surfen!
Jetzt aktivieren unter https://www.gmx.net/info

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:28:54 -0700
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

> Another reason leaders are off balance is they don't

What are you guys talking about. Leaders aren't off
balance unless they start concentrating on stupid
things to do with their feet that don't come natural
to them. If the person can walk, he has enough
balance to dance. Especially beginners, where their
no need for them to be doing any pivoting or something
that would cause them to lose balance. Perhaps after
more experience someone can refine their way of
walking, but in the beginning he should just walk the
way he walks.

I agree with Roberto, teachers should focus on feeling
more than steps.

There is probably not much you can do about these
teachers. When you meet new guys that compliment your
dancing you could give them advice on who to study
with.

Regards,
Rose
Portland,OR

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:44:34 -0700
From: Daniel Lapadula <clubstyletango@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

Roberto: I am one of them!
Ther is no one of my students off-balance,but I would
like to see you on-balance on your heels.
Nice heel tangos.
Daniel Lapadula
PS:Tell me were did you find the Tango Bible and the
chapter were it said that you should walk YOUR way!
Regards again.

--- roberto vermais <odioesteamor@YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> Why are there tango teachers out there teaching
> beginner students to walk by landing on the ball of
> their foot? almost none of the leaders get it right
> and then they are off-balance and frustrated from
> the start. This leads to a slew of other problems
> regarding posture, leading, etc. In the end, the
> ones that suffer are the followers of the community
> because the beginner leaders either quit or continue
> with their flawed technique and push them around.
>
>
> For a double whammy, these teachers will usually
> throw in the 8 count basic of tango and then leaders
> will be sitting ducks on the milonga floor.
>
>
> It is my opinion that teachers who teach this are
> not social dancers. they are just stage (or
> wanna-be) dancers who wouldn't know their way
> around a milonga floor even if there were arrow
> signs. these teachers should be banned from teaching
> because if you can't tear it up on the milonga
> floor, then you are not a tango dancer and even less
> so a teacher. PERIOD.
>
> It is my hope that these "chanta" (con men) teachers
> will be discredited as better teachers/dancers
> appear in the community and show the community what
> tango dancing should look like and, even better yet,
> FEEL like.
>
> Roberto
>
>
> finish.
>

=====

Daniel Lapadula
ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com
54114-773-9383
Buenos Aires-Argentina

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 16:13:04 -0500
From: Gulden Ozen <gulden@TANGOPHILIA.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

Daniel,
I didn't see in any of the messages that argued "landing on the heel of
the foot first" or "landing on the whole foot" as opposed to "landing on
the balls of the feet" a statement that says the weight should be kept on
the heels and you should do a heel tango! Sure, it is easier to argue
against being balanced on your heels but I don't think it is relevant
here.
And this message is not intended only to get your attention to this
point but also all those who seemingly rushed through these messages and
jumped to the conclusion that people who talk about landing heel first
are saying that "you should walk with your weight on the heels of your
feet". To me, these are quite different arguments and I haven't seen
anybody dancing on their heels except for some beginners as opposed to
having seen many stage dancers and teachers who either land on their
whole foot or on the heels of the foot for a "split of a second" and
roll on to the ball of the foot.
And I don't have a Tango Bible but I've seen many people walking in
accordance with these mechanics naturally without having been exposed to
any tango or dance training.

Best,
Gulden Ozen

> Roberto: I am one of them!
> Ther is no one of my students off-balance,but I would
> like to see you on-balance on your heels.
> Nice heel tangos.
> Daniel Lapadula
> PS:Tell me were did you find the Tango Bible and the
> chapter were it said that you should walk YOUR way!
> Regards again.
>
> --- roberto vermais <odioesteamor@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
>> Why are there tango teachers out there teaching
>> beginner students to walk by landing on the ball of
>> their foot? almost none of the leaders get it right
>> and then they are off-balance and frustrated from
>> the start. This leads to a slew of other problems
>> regarding posture, leading, etc. In the end, the
>> ones that suffer are the followers of the community
>> because the beginner leaders either quit or continue
>> with their flawed technique and push them around.
>>
>>
>> For a double whammy, these teachers will usually
>> throw in the 8 count basic of tango and then leaders
>> will be sitting ducks on the milonga floor.
>>
>>
>> It is my opinion that teachers who teach this are
>> not social dancers. they are just stage (or
>> wanna-be) dancers who wouldn't know their way
>> around a milonga floor even if there were arrow
>> signs. these teachers should be banned from teaching
>> because if you can't tear it up on the milonga
>> floor, then you are not a tango dancer and even less
>> so a teacher. PERIOD.
>>
>> It is my hope that these "chanta" (con men) teachers
>> will be discredited as better teachers/dancers
>> appear in the community and show the community what
>> tango dancing should look like and, even better yet,
>> FEEL like.
>>
>> Roberto
>>
>>
>> finish.
>>
>
>
> =====
>
> Daniel Lapadula
> ClubStyleTango@yahoo.com
> 54114-773-9383
> Buenos Aires-Argentina
>
>
>
>

Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2004 00:12:55 -0400
From: bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

For all of you that have never taught before (and definately those who have tried but are far from being qualified), you have no position to say how beginners should be taught. Every student is different, but I can guarantee if you have never taught or have only taught a short time, or have never learned BOTH the man and the womans' part, then you have NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT! Teaching is very challenging, and there is no ONE way to teach students. Each offers a new challenge.

Razor Girl writes:
"Leaders aren't off balance unless they start concentrating on stupid things to do with their feet that don't come natural to them."

You know what? Walking with another person in front of you in your space is not natural!!! So, that's the first challenge that a new leader in tango gets. Trying to stay on balance when they have a person in front of them. I have taught dancers of all ages, and 95% of them are extremely uncomfortable with this at first, and are not on their balance. And followers are sometimes WORSE at this in the beginning.

"Especially beginners, where their no need for them to be doing any pivoting or something that would cause them to lose balance."

WHAT?!?!!? Every little rotation you make, whether it is only a 1/8 of a turn or a 1/4 turn or more is a PIVOT! And most new leaders have a terrible time making that type of even slight rotation and not throwing their partner or themselves off balance. And there are plenty of needs for pivoting for a beginner. Are they going to make a straight line down the floor the whole time dancing? Most dance floors are round or square or rectangular, so at SOME POINT in time they are going to have to pivot somehow.

PLEASE all of you STUDENTS quit trying to tell TRAINED TEACHERS how to teach!!!!

Nicole
Miami




--- On Fri 07/02, Razor Girl < dilettante666@YAHOO.COM > wrote:

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 10:28:54 -0700
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango teachers that hurt the community

Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2004 22:26:05 -0700
From: Michael <michael@TANGOBELLINGHAM.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

> ....NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT!
> Nicole

Ok, fine - let's just assume that's the case. Without getting into a
dueling qualifications shouting match, what would you advise, and why?
What are the advantages to landing on the ball of the foot, the whole
foot, or the heel? The biomechanics of the walk should be able to be
analyzed, whether by kinesiology, Laban Movement Analysis, etc. (take
your pick), and discussed.

BTW, part of the reason I ask questions here is *because* I'm a rookie
teacher in AT, and am teaching at the request of and with the
supervision of my teachers in Seattle. I am genuinely interested in
opposing viewpoints - my umpty-squat years of training in other dance
forms, movement disciplines, and the martial arts has amply taught me
the benefit of asking my sempai and sensei for their advice and assistance.

Michael
Tango Bellingham

Date: Sun, 4 Jul 2004 10:22:15 -0700
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

--- bailadora2000@EXCITE.COM wrote:

> Teaching is very challenging, and there is no ONE
> way to teach students. Each offers a new challenge.

I agree with you.

> You know what? Walking with another person in front
> of you in your space is not natural!!! So, that's

Yes, and its too bad you didn't pick up on my point
about how I think teachers should focus on feeling
more than steps. I am over simplfying it, and if it
is worth while to you to pick apart what I am saying
because it makes you feel better I can't control that.
How a person steps is going to make a big difference
in his dancing. The way a person dances is as
individual as the way he walks. But I think to a
beginning dancer, to teach him something particular
about where to place the weight on his foot is going
to cause him to focus on his feet rather than on the
heart where his tango should come from. Later he can
refine his walk.

Regards,
Rose
Portland, OR

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:45:19 -0700
From: Andy Carrillo <coastguardrecruiter@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

If you are illiterate in basic spelling, grammar and
syntax, how can you possibly write anything that will
move me, make me FEEL anything other than to pity your
ignorance? Or if you know nothing of musical notation,
timing or tempo, then how will the noise you
subsequently make possibly move me to FEEL anything
other than perhaps leaving the room?

Ever write countless rough drafts, or practice musical
scales ad nauseum? Ever practice katas until they
became first nature? The FEELING develops as one
develops the skills.

My point: good instructors give students the basic
tools to express whatever feelings develop from the
endeavor. The goal of excellent instructors is to
develop each and every student's potential in the hope
that the student will excel beyond the "master".

Dance well...

Andy



--- Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> > Another reason leaders are off balance is they
> don't
>
> What are you guys talking about. Leaders aren't off
> balance unless they start concentrating on stupid
> things to do with their feet that don't come natural
> to them. If the person can walk, he has enough
> balance to dance. Especially beginners, where their
> no need for them to be doing any pivoting or
> something
> that would cause them to lose balance. Perhaps
> after
> more experience someone can refine their way of
> walking, but in the beginning he should just walk
> the
> way he walks.
>
> I agree with Roberto, teachers should focus on
> feeling
> more than steps.
>
> There is probably not much you can do about these
> teachers. When you meet new guys that compliment
> your
> dancing you could give them advice on who to study
> with.
>
> Regards,
> Rose
> Portland,OR
>
>
> Send "Where can I Tango in <city>?" requests to
> Tango-A rather than to
> Tango-L, since you can indicate the region. To
> subscribe to Tango-A,
> send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 08:55:59 -0700
From: Andy Carrillo <coastguardrecruiter@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

Randy,

Great question with a very simple answer: no agreement
could ever be reached amongst the "great masters"
because their egos loom in the way.

Christy Cote, San Francisco, has quietly written a
beautiful syllabus which we will use in our upcoming
Teacher Training Course here at Tango By The River,
Old Sacramento, CA. Despite her tremendous talent as
both a teacher and performer, she has never allowed
her ego to prevent the furtherance of this wonderful
dance. She's dedicated her entire life to it and has
been quite successful in doing so.

Tango on...

Andy

--- Miamidances@AOL.COM wrote:

> Why do we have so many differing opinions on
> Argentine Tango? In the ballroom world there are
> different opinions, but not anywhere near as many,
> as in A.T. world. In ballroom theyb re two
> standards, the American standard and the
> International standard. In the American style
> thereb s the Arthur Murray studio syllabus, the
> Fred Astaire studio syllabus, and several
> independent studio syllabus, the names of steps are
> different, some have steps that the others donb t
> have, but the technique is almost the same. The
> International Syllabus is exactly the same steps and
> technique throughout the world.
>
> In the Argentine Tango world there is no standard
> syllabus. After 7 years organizing the USTC Tango
> Fantasy event in Miami, Ib ve had the privilege of
> msany interesting conversations about the past and
> where Tango might go in the future with many of the
> masters. In one of my conversations with Mr Copes,
> he told me that they tried to set a syllabus.
> Copes, Pugliese, Zotto, Gavito, and several other
> masters got together for this purpose, after 5 hours
> of discussion, and almost going to the fists, they
> gave up. They could not even agree on the basic
> step. If these masters of Tango could not agree on
> the basic step, I donb t think that we ever will.
>
> We will always have our debates and conversations on
> what we think is right, and give our opinions of
> what we have been taught, but the many issues of
> Tango will never be finalized or agreed upon.
>
> Tango Forever
>
> Randy Pittman
> Best of Dance studio, home of the Miami Dance
> Machine
>
>
> Send "Where can I Tango in <city>?" requests to
> Tango-A rather than to
> Tango-L, since you can indicate the region. To
> subscribe to Tango-A,
> send "subscribe Tango-A Firstname Lastname" to
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>

Date: Tue, 6 Jul 2004 10:33:22 -0700
From: Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

--- Andy Carrillo <coastguardrecruiter@yahoo.com>

> The FEELING develops as one
> develops the skills.

Interesting sentiment Andy. But I believe that all
art is an expression of ones self first and translated
through the skills that one has second. The skill is
the tool by which you can communicate your inner
feelings. In fact, I would say the opposite from you,
that the feeling develops the skill. The very desire
to learn the skill stems from a desire to express
something. Why would I learn to write, paint, dance
if I had nothing to say? This is this very reason that
technique varies from one person to the next.

> My point: good instructors give students the basic
> tools to express whatever feelings develop from the
> endeavor. The goal of excellent instructors is to
> develop each and every student's potential in the
> hope that the student will excel beyond
> the "master".

I do not agree. I believe that the goal of an
excellent instructor is to develop each student's
potential in effort to reveal what it is that each
student uniquely strives to express. A student's
dance should not be the master's dance. Each person
has their own voice, their own dance. The instructors
job is to help the person develop the skills to
express themselves.

Regards,
Rose
Portland, OR

Sent: Tuesday, July 06, 2004 4:55 PM
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango teachers that hurt the community

> Randy,
>
> Great question with a very simple answer: no agreement
> could ever be reached amongst the "great masters"
> because their egos loom in the way.
>
> Christy Cote, San Francisco, has quietly written a
> beautiful syllabus which we will use in our upcoming
> Teacher Training Course here at Tango By The River,
> Old Sacramento, CA. Despite her tremendous talent as
> both a teacher and performer, she has never allowed
> her ego to prevent the furtherance of this wonderful
> dance. She's dedicated her entire life to it and has
> been quite successful in doing so.
>
> Tango on...
>
> Andy

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 00:47:05 -0700
From: Andy Carrillo <coastguardrecruiter@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

Dear Rose,

Had Helen Keller "listened" to you, she wouldn't have
become the great inspiration to others that she did
become. She was taught the skills which became the
vehicle for her self-expression.

Chicken or the egg? I didn't believe I had anything to
express until my instructor, Christy Cote', showed me
what was possible. As I become more skillful, it
becomes easier to express what it is I feel when I
hear 'Pobre Flor' or dance a milonga.

Tango on...

Abrazos,

Andy

--- Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> --- Andy Carrillo <coastguardrecruiter@yahoo.com>
> > The FEELING develops as one
> > develops the skills.
>
> Interesting sentiment Andy. But I believe that all
> art is an expression of ones self first and
> translated
> through the skills that one has second. The skill
> is
> the tool by which you can communicate your inner
> feelings. In fact, I would say the opposite from
> you,
> that the feeling develops the skill. The very
> desire
> to learn the skill stems from a desire to express
> something. Why would I learn to write, paint, dance
> if I had nothing to say? This is this very reason
> that
> technique varies from one person to the next.
>
> > My point: good instructors give students the basic
> > tools to express whatever feelings develop from
> the
> > endeavor. The goal of excellent instructors is to
> > develop each and every student's potential in the
> > hope that the student will excel beyond
> > the "master".
>
> I do not agree. I believe that the goal of an
> excellent instructor is to develop each student's
> potential in effort to reveal what it is that each
> student uniquely strives to express. A student's
> dance should not be the master's dance. Each person
> has their own voice, their own dance. The
> instructors
> job is to help the person develop the skills to
> express themselves.
>
> Regards,
> Rose
> Portland, OR
>

Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 16:35:12 -0600
From: David Hodgson <DHodgson@TANGO777.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

Time for me to through in a few thoughts.
I have been reading this string with some mixed thoughts and opinions.

I am in agreement with Rose on this one.

My I remind you Andy that Helen Keller's Teacher (Anne Mansfield Sullivan)
had to drag Helen Keller kicking and screaming through the process of
learning. That not only could she communicate with the outside world, with
disabilities that I can only imagine are difficult to learn to work with by
today's standards let alone by the standards of the society in the 1890's,
let alone being a woman at that time.

Helen's teacher not only had to help Helen find a way to communicate but
also that this could be of value to her.
It was until that moment that Helen could have been taught the skills
necessary for her to do the monumental work she accomplished during her
lifetime.

I also believe that that all art or what ever is an expression of ones self
first and translated through the skills, knowledge, talents and experience
that one has second.

The teacher is a facilitator for that discovery.
Some teachers are very gentle, some are on the equivalent of Simon LeGree.
Some are teaching out of a love to teach and some are out to make a buck. no
judgments on any of these.
I have my own way of teaching and know that it is not generally for the
majority of people. I also know that there are a lot of other teachers out
there. If someone is not getting what I am teaching or wants to learn
something I don't know and I am more than happy to point them the way of
someone else who may be of more assistance to a student.

May I also remind you it goes both ways, the student needs to take the
information that is taught and apply it to find out if it will work for them
or not.

Take care all.
David Hodgson




-----Original Message-----

Sent: Saturday, July 10, 2004 1:47 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Tango teachers that hurt the community


Dear Rose,

Had Helen Keller "listened" to you, she wouldn't have
become the great inspiration to others that she did
become. She was taught the skills which became the
vehicle for her self-expression.

Chicken or the egg? I didn't believe I had anything to
express until my instructor, Christy Cote', showed me
what was possible. As I become more skillful, it
becomes easier to express what it is I feel when I
hear 'Pobre Flor' or dance a milonga.

Tango on...

Abrazos,

Andy

--- Razor Girl <dilettante666@YAHOO.COM> wrote:

> --- Andy Carrillo <coastguardrecruiter@yahoo.com>
> > The FEELING develops as one
> > develops the skills.
>
> Interesting sentiment Andy. But I believe that all
> art is an expression of ones self first and
> translated
> through the skills that one has second. The skill
> is
> the tool by which you can communicate your inner
> feelings. In fact, I would say the opposite from
> you,
> that the feeling develops the skill. The very
> desire
> to learn the skill stems from a desire to express
> something. Why would I learn to write, paint, dance
> if I had nothing to say? This is this very reason
> that
> technique varies from one person to the next.
>
> > My point: good instructors give students the basic
> > tools to express whatever feelings develop from
> the
> > endeavor. The goal of excellent instructors is to
> > develop each and every student's potential in the
> > hope that the student will excel beyond
> > the "master".
>
> I do not agree. I believe that the goal of an
> excellent instructor is to develop each student's
> potential in effort to reveal what it is that each
> student uniquely strives to express. A student's
> dance should not be the master's dance. Each person
> has their own voice, their own dance. The
> instructors
> job is to help the person develop the skills to
> express themselves.
>
> Regards,
> Rose
> Portland, OR
>

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 16:01:08 +0100
From: Sebastian Arce <arcetango@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Tango teachers that hurt the community

Hi Dear List,

It's been a long time since my last post. The issue of the standardization
of tango seems to confuse a lot of US students and tango lovers. Because
I've experienced the ballroom and Argentinean tango worlds, I'd like to
share my thoughts with all of you.

I've taught tango for months to English ballroom champions, and I had the
opportunity of getting to know much about how the ballroom world works.
First of all you should all understand that both worlds have very different
objectives :

Main goal of ballroom : To perfectly perform the dance within parameters
that can be judged later by those that created the parameters. To produce
dancers that will compete against each other. In addition, to advance you
must invest a sufficient amount of money, over a long period of time, to
enroll and complete the goals/levels (bronze, silver, and gold).

Main goal of tango : Individuality is respected and fundamental. You have
many resources to express yourself by learning from many different teachers
that will contribute to your dance their different personalities and visions
of tango and which will make you a richer, more open-minded,
non-descriminatory dancer. There are no parameters eventhough you have some
basics to respect such as: crossed (backwards and fowards) and open
single-foot positioning like Gustavo Naveira and Fabian Salas established.
And then the infinite relationships that we could get by combining those
units. People don't go to competitions. This is a popular art and it's
evolution goes hand-in-hand with popular feelings. You can not set
boundaries around people's feelings. Don't you think that would be quite
dictatorial?

I wanted to teach the ballroom champions how to improvise and they were like
'Are you crazy?!' and they reacted like that because improvising or creating
new moves will get the judges very confused and then they would be
disqualified. So... I understood that the process of creation, learning from
mistakes to create new moves, and improvisation was completely forbidden to
them. They are not free to feel and dance. They have to think about the
judge and try to please them.

Naveira and Salas have developed a system that gives you bases to develop
your improvisation skills. That's why this system is so popular among tango
students.
By teaching a syllabus, you are teaching student sequences already created
by you or Christy. We lose our most important tool for expressing ourselves:
improvisation. And please don't come up with that stupid idea that you
improvise by combining the syllabi! That is like saying that you have
created a song by combining the musical phrases of "The Way We Were" and
"Beat It".

Andy, if you want Christy judging YOU as a highly qualified instructor
through her methodology, then she leaves you with the authority to judge
your students within the same methodology. Christy will then have to
continue judging your teaching (which is her teaching) and your students.
This diploma or degree supposedly gives you and your students the right to
judge each other and other teachers who don't adopt the same methodology.
This generates money and the future possibility for Christy to promote
syllabus 2, 3, 4, and so on; however, this new community will be more
focused on having students that follow the "right" parameters and teachers
who get more money from promoting the new syllabus. This will create more
competition among the community rather than acceptance of self expression
and creativity. Judgement thus discrimination does not match TANGO beliefs.
Tango is an art, an expression, and thus a personal path.

About the tango master's meeting you talk so freely about, I was there. I
was an assistant of Eduardo Arquimbau. And it's not that they didn't
agree... they did agree about some things. I know most of them and let me
tell you that if their egos were forbidding them to agree, they never would
have met in the first place! They were very open about the subjects and they
tried very hard but, the DANCE was not very well developed yet or at least
the understanding of it. They could not agree on any standard method to
execute a "sequence" because each master's way of doing the sequence was so
personal. However, this meeting was very helpful to Naveira in creating a
system that could be used for any kind of style, a system that opened the
analytical eye of the dance for tango fanatics. A system that would analize
a sequence by units of movement and by axes positions. Most importantly this
gave anyone the freedom to express themselves with their bodies, even in
ways that would transcend previous conventions.

At our last Festival here in Paris we had more than 300 people for the
workshops and an average of 650 people per milonga - 3 milongas total. And
you know what... another Festival was going on during my Festival ! This
success is not because this is PARIS ! Sorry but no! It was thanks to the
teachers and their great ability to communicate tango. There has not been a
tango event like this one here in Paris for years!

You can create all the syllabi you want but this is about creativity and
freedom. People will have the last word and it will be their choice.


Sebastian ARCE
Tango Argentino

www.allthattango.com
www.mephisto-tango.com

+33 (0) 1 46 78 63 58
+33 (0) 6 09 52 39 28

Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:13:42 +0000
From: Sebastian Arce <arcetango@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

Andy Carrillo wrote

>Randy,
>
>Great question with a very simple answer: no agreement
>could ever be reached amongst the "great masters"
>because their egos loom in the way.
>
>Christy Cote, San Francisco, has quietly written a
>beautiful syllabus ... Despite her tremendous talent as
>both a teacher and performer, she has never allowed
>her ego to prevent the furtherance of this wonderful
>dance. She's dedicated her entire life to it and has
>been quite successful in doing so.

Hi Dear List,

It's been a long time since my last post. The issue of the standardization
of tango seems to confuse a lot of US students and tango lovers. Because
I've experienced the ballroom and Argentinean tango worlds, I'd like to
share my thoughts with all of you.

I've taught tango for months to English ballroom champions, and I had the
opportunity of getting to know much about how the ballroom world works.
First of all you should all understand that both worlds have very different
objectives :

Main goal of ballroom : To perfectly perform the dance within parameters
that can be judged later by those that created the parameters. To produce
dancers that will compete against each other. In addition, to advance you
must invest a sufficient amount of money, over a long period of time, to
enroll and complete the goals/levels (bronze, silver, and gold).

Main goal of tango : Individuality is respected and fundamental. You have
many resources to express yourself by learning from many different teachers
that will contribute to your dance their different personalities and visions
of tango and which will make you a richer, more open-minded,
non-descriminatory dancer. There are no parameters eventhough you have some
basics to respect such as: crossed (backwards and fowards) and open
single-foot positioning like Gustavo Naveira and Fabian Salas established.
And then the infinite relationships that we could get by combining those
units. People don't go to competitions. This is a popular art and it's
evolution goes hand-in-hand with popular feelings. You can not set
boundaries around people's feelings. Don't you think that would be quite
dictatorial?

I wanted to teach the ballroom champions how to improvise and they were like
'Are you crazy?!' and they reacted like that because improvising or creating
new moves will get the judges very confused and then they would be
disqualified. So... I understood that the process of creation, learning from
mistakes to create new moves, and improvisation was completely forbidden to
them. They are not free to feel and dance. They have to think about the
judge and try to please them.

Naveira and Salas have developed a system that gives you bases to develop
your improvisation skills. That's why this system is so popular among tango
students.
By teaching a syllabus, you are teaching student sequences already created
by you or Christy. We lose our most important tool for expressing ourselves:
improvisation. And please don't come up with that stupid idea that you
improvise by combining the syllabi! That is like saying that you have
created a song by combining the musical phrases of "The Way We Were" and
"Beat It".

Andy, if you want Christy judging YOU as a highly qualified instructor
through her methodology, then she leaves you with the authority to judge
your students within the same methodology. Christy will then have to
continue judging your teaching (which is her teaching) and your students.
This diploma or degree supposedly gives you and your students the right to
judge each other and other teachers who don't adopt the same methodology.
This generates money and the future possibility for Christy to promote
syllabus 2, 3, 4, and so on; however, this new community will be more
focused on having students that follow the "right" parameters and teachers
who get more money from promoting the new syllabus. This will create more
competition among the community rather than acceptance of self expression
and creativity. Judgement thus discrimination does not match TANGO beliefs.
Tango is an art, an expression, and thus a personal path.

About the tango master's meeting you talk so freely about, I was there. I
was an assistant of Eduardo Arquimbau. And it's not that they didn't
agree... they did agree about some things. I know most of them and let me
tell you that if their egos were forbidding them to agree, they never would
have met in the first place! They were very open about the subjects and they
tried very hard but, the DANCE was not very well developed yet or at least
the understanding of it. They could not agree on any standard method to
execute a "sequence" because each master's way of doing the sequence was so
personal. However, this meeting was very helpful to Naveira in creating a
system that could be used for any kind of style, a system that opened the
analytical eye of the dance for tango fanatics. A system that would analize
a sequence by units of movement and by axes positions. Most importantly this
gave anyone the freedom to express themselves with their bodies, even in
ways that would transcend previous conventions.

At our last Festival here in Paris we had more than 300 people for the
workshops and an average of 650 people per milonga - 3 milongas total. And
you know what... another Festival was going on during my Festival ! This
success is not because this is PARIS ! Sorry but no! It was thanks to the
teachers and their great ability to communicate tango. There has not been a
tango event like this one here in Paris for years!

You can create all the syllabi you want but this is about creativity and
freedom. People will have the last word and it will be their choice.


Sebastian ARCE
Tango Argentino

www.allthattango.com
www.mephisto-tango.com

+33 (0) 1 46 78 63 58
+33 (0) 6 09 52 39 28

Las mejores tiendas, los precios mas bajos, entregas en todo el mundo,

Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 00:22:35 +0100
From: Sebastian Arce <arcetango@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tango teachers that hurt the community

Dear Andy,

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my email. You seem to know better
than me what "Americans" want. Despite my 15 years of tango, I still don't
know what people want from tango and every time I get into the classroom,
even though I have a clear idea of what I want to teach and how I want to
teach it, most of the time I find myself improvising. Isn't this what tango
is about? Improvising...being able to make the most of difficult situations
and circumstances. There is no text book for that. After a lesson, getting
out of the room, my students thank me and I'm still wondering who taught
who. Do you think that a book, video, syllabi, whatever, can summarize all
that gets exchanged between student and teacher? The process of learning
tango is very well related to learning in life about life. You can not learn
in life about life just by relating with those that you like the most and
who you think have all the answers. I remember Finito telling me when I was
about 10 yrs old, "Gastando suelas de zapatos, cansando companieras buenas y
malas, criando callos en los pies, y transpirando" will lead me to become a
better dancer. I would add that learning from every teacher that you have
the chance to learn from is going to develop your personality as well as
your tango. Like in life Andy, you learn by relating with people and their
different points of view. Con mas gente bailas mas aprendes sobre el tango.
Con mas gente hablas en la vida y "escuchas" mas aprendes sobre la vida
misma.

I'm sorry about the Tango Festival Of Sacramento, which I programmed to help
Tango by the River but, several other commitments forbid me to come there. I
hope all the "enthusiasm" you had since the beginning of this festival
project will remain in your heart and you will make it possible.

Tangueros: good luck with the future workshop that will be held at Tango by
the River next weekend.

Regards,
Sebastian ARCE

p.s. I would like to share with you this song written by Alejandro Sanz,
pro-new-flamenco musician. He wrote this song after receiving several offers
from one multi-national record producer to create a jazz CD; he refused
these proposals because of his beliefs about not commercializing his own
art. Voila!

"No Es Lo Mismo"

eres tanta gente, que dime
con quien hablo ahora.
no ves que no sois iguales?
eres la de: "quedate conmigo"
prometo darte tormento, darte malos ratos
yo te prometo si me escuchas, niqa, darte arte
que no es lo mismo que:

"quedate y ya veremos...
quedate y ya veremos..."

no es lo mismo ser que estar
no es lo mismo estar que quedarse... que va!
tampoco quedarse es igual que parar
no es lo mismo
sera que ni somos, ni estamos,
ni nos pensamos quedar
pero es distinto conformarse o pelear
no es lo mismo... es distinto

no es lo mismo arte que hartar
no es lo mismo ser justo que "que justo te va" lo veras
no es lo mismo tu que otra, enterate, no es lo mismo
que sepas que hay gente que trata de confundirnos
pero tenemos corazon que no es igual, lo sentimos... es distinto

Vale, que a lo mejor me lo merezco
bueno, pero mi voz no te la vendo
puerta y lo que opinen de nosotros
leeme en los labios yo no estoy en venta

Vale, que a lo mejor lo merecemos
bueno, pero la voz no la vendemos
puerta y lo que opinen de nosotros
leeme en los labios que a mi me vale madre

puerta y aire que me asfixio
que no se trata del lado que quieras estar
que estar de un lado, o echarte a un lado, veras
no se como decirte, no es lo mismo
vivir es lo mas peligroso que tiene la vida
que digan por television

que hay suelto un corazon
que no es igual
que es peligroso... que es distinto

no es lo mismo basta o va a estar
ni es lo mismo decir, opinar, imponer o mandar
las listas negras, las manos blancas... veras
no es lo mismo
no gana el que tiene mas ganas
no se si me explico?
que hoy nadie quiere ser igual
que mas te da
no es como un "ismo"... es distinto

Vale, que a lo mejor me lo merezco
bueno, pero mi voz no te la vendo
puerta y lo que opinen de nosotros
leeme en los labios yo no estoy en venta

Vale, que a lo mejor lo merecemos
bueno, pero la voz no la vendemos
puerta y lo que opinen de nosotros
leeme en los labios que a mi me vale madre

Tengo pomada pa' to' los dolores
remedios para toda clase de errrores
tambien recetas pa' la desilusion

no es igual

Vale, que a lo mejor lo merecemos
bueno, pero la voz no la vendemos
puerta y lo que opinen de nosotros
leeme en los labios yo no estoy en venta

Vale, que a lo mejor lo merecemos
bueno, pero la voz no la vendemos
puerta y lo que opinen de nosotros
leeme en los labios que a mi me vale madre

Tengo pomada pa' to' los dolores
remedios para toda clase de errrores
tambien recetas pa' la desilusion




Sebastian ARCE
Tango Argentino

www.allthattango.com
www.mephisto-tango.com

+33 (0) 1 46 78 63 58
+33 (0) 6 09 52 39 28