58 Technique of rotating
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 10:38:22 -0700
From: Mark Sussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Technique of rotating
I loved that list from Sergio about the gamut of tango
technique. It isn't daunting. It suggests years of
exciting things to try out.
The part I'm most interested in right now is:
> Changing the axis of the follower from one leg to
> the other, maintaining the
> axis of the follower in one leg and rotating.
I like it when my partner is on her right foot with
the left one still and slightly behind (or fully
crossed back). I like to rotate her on that right
foot, either a little bit or walking her around like a
ballet promenade. If it's really working and the
music fits, I like to walk back a little bit so we're
in a "lean".
My problem is, I find it hard to lead her to stay put!
I'll try to walk around (or back into a lean) and
she'll be taking steps with me when I wanted her just
to stay put on that right foot. What am I doing
wrong? How do I encourage her to maintain her axis on
one leg?
Mark
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 14:43:11 -0400
From: Melinda Bates <tangerauna@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Technique of rotating
Mark, the lead I am accustomed to is a slight lifting movement of the man's
right arm, in a firm embrace. I always recognize that as meaing "stay in
place, don't change weight or step". I also think this move is lovely, and
I enjoy slooowly wrapping my free foot around the pivot foot, hopefully the
way I saw on an old videotape....(Mora? Lorena?) You know, I never know if
anyone else is aware I'm doing these things, but it doesn't much matter, as
it's more about how I feel doing it.
Hope this helps,
Melinda
> The part I'm most interested in right now is:
> > Changing the axis of the follower from one leg to
> > the other, maintaining the
> > axis of the follower in one leg and rotating.
>
> I like it when my partner is on her right foot with
> the left one still and slightly behind (or fully
> crossed back). I like to rotate her on that right
> foot, either a little bit or walking her around like a
> ballet promenade. If it's really working and the
> music fits, I like to walk back a little bit so we're
> in a "lean".
>
> My problem is, I find it hard to lead her to stay put!
> I'll try to walk around (or back into a lean) and
> she'll be taking steps with me when I wanted her just
> to stay put on that right foot. What am I doing
> wrong? How do I encourage her to maintain her axis on
> one leg?
>
> Mark
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 12:55:59 -0700
From: Mark Sussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Technique of rotating
In a very short time, I have received quite a few
replies in private to my question about how to lead a
woman to maintain her axis on one foot while I rotate
her. Thanks for everyone's email!
The responses have been unanimous. I need to provide
an upward mark with my right arm. Well, I'm off to a
milonga tonight to give that a shot. Yayyy
Mark
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 17:37:56 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Technique of rotating
Heyo Mark...
> The responses have been unanimous. I need to provide
> an upward mark with my right arm.
IMHO, one of the arts of leading is clearly isolating the
pivots from the steps and yet keeping the pivots light and
making the dance smooth. If leaders are sensitive to move
around the follower's axis, then the follower should never
step during the pivot. Many leaders don't attend to whether
their leads truly maintain the follower's axis. In addition,
pivots can be heavy if the lead is not on time to capture
and translate a bit of energy from the previous step to drive
the rotation. A subtle arm lift can help, but IMHO it's
no substitute for a late lead.
A nice follower will trust their leader and assume that the
leads ARE what was intended. Think about it. If you are
simultaneously lifting her with the right arm and badly leading
a pivot (moving her off axis), then your signals are NOT to
pivot and then step. These simultaneous signals say "tip over"!
You'd better be ready to manage (eg. hold her?) when she follows
and gives you her body weight!
Of course, in tango everything "depends". To generalize...
I encourage leaders to pay careful attention to body placement
and use the arm lift to help followers who are not waiting.
There's nothing wrong with the lift, as long as the body-lead
is correct. But the nicest followers I know might consider
more than a subtle lift to be a needless distraction.
...and the teachers among them would probably sense a lack of
fundamentals...
Cheers,
Frank in Minneapolis
--
Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frankw@mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 281-3860 (cellular/home)
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 19:04:38 -0700
From: Sergio <sergio@NCINTER.NET>
Subject: Technique of rotating - Calesita
Mark's question in reference to leading "la calesita" (carrousel) and ending
with a lean (bridge, puente, apilado).
Melinda's answer: "Mark, the lead I am accustomed to is a slight lifting
movement of the man's
right arm, in a firm embrace."
The problem as described by Mark is that the woman does not stay on her axis
she walks in the direction that she feels the man is pulling her. If after
using a correct lead and frame this problem continues the only solution is
not to do it with that particular lady, or verbally explain that she should
stay in place and rotate on her axis at the next practica.
The lead as described by Melinda has two components, firm embrace and
lifting movement of the man's right arm.
Firm embrace: As the man steps to the side with left foot, he has a firm
frame. He lifts her with his right arm exerting a slight pressure upwards on
her left axillary area (arm pit) this places the follower on her right foot,
the man rotates backward providing support with his frame, at the end he
brings her closer to his chest and walks away to produce a lean (bridge) or
apilamiento. He may alternatively place his right foot close to her left and
cause her to lean on his right side by stepping to the side with his left
leg, the lady leans with her right side on the left side of the man. This is
call "inclinada" (lateral lean).
The calesita rotating counterclockwise may be started whenever the woman is
on her right foot. It may be followed by pulling of the woman as the man
walks backwards, this causes the lady to be dragged.Or else she may be
pushed, this is more difficult and requires a sliding floor. There is a
calesita clockwise as well. The initiation and lead is different.
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 12:17:10 -0800
From: Dan Boccia <redfox@ALASKA.NET>
Subject: Feeling (was: Technique of rotating)
Melinda wrote:
"...You know, I never know if anyone else is aware I'm doing these things,
but it doesn't much matter, as
it's more about how I feel doing it."
Yes!! Thank you, Melinda, for making this statement - I like this thought
process! Your partner may not even feel it. But we can't forget to dance
for ourselves as well.
Dan
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 20:09:09 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Technique of rotating
>Heyo Mark...
>
>> The responses have been unanimous. I need to provide
> > an upward mark with my right arm.
>
>...
>Of course, in tango everything "depends". To generalize...
>
>I encourage leaders to pay careful attention to body placement
>and use the arm lift to help followers who are not waiting.
>There's nothing wrong with the lift, as long as the body-lead
>is correct. But the nicest followers I know might consider
>more than a subtle lift to be a needless distraction.
>...and the teachers among them would probably sense a lack of
>fundamentals...
I mostly agree with Frank.
Although many experienced teachers propose specific marks to signal a
move, the ones I most admire do not really require specific hand or
arm indications. As one who prefers tango as a SOCIAL dance, I'm in
the lead-follow from the body school. On stage it may be a different
story.
That said, I'm am constantly giving SUBTLE signals with my hands and
arms, so it isn't as simple as remove all hand signals.
The Calesita or the "Iwo Jima"?
I'm not one who likes the calesita with a lean. It is a signature
move of certain stage dancers, and I see a lot of not-so-good
intermediates using it to try to impress new ladies. (These are the
same guys trying to teach ganchos in the middle of a milonga).
Also, I'm short, so I refer to it as the "Iwo Jima" move, in honor of
a famous statue of some soldiers struggling to raise the flag during
WWII.
Harmful to the back
This kind of lean is more appropriate for ballet-trained followers.
It requires strong, strong stomach muscles in order to protect the
lady's back. Most of my partners are ladies in their 30s - 50s
without specific ballet or modern dance training. They are my height
or taller. Doing the Iwo Jima risks hurting their back and mine.
I can't say it strongly enough: NEVER lead moves that are harmful to
your partner. Unfortunately the ladies don't feel secure enough to
tell the guys NO when they are leading hurtful things or navigating
poorly.
--
-----
"To my way of thinking the tango is, above all, rhythm,
nerve, force, character...I tried to restore to the tango
its masculine quality." -- Juan D'Arienzo (1949)
-----
Tom Stermitz
- Stermitz@Ragtime.org
- 303-725-5963
- https://www.tango.org/dance/EternaTeaching.html
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 04:58:41 EDT
From: Megan Pingree <Pmpingree@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: technique of rotating
As a follower, my experience has been that when the calesita is well lead, I
couldn't change weight if I wanted to. There is no lead to do so; I wouldn't
know what direction to move. A lift from his arm is unnecessary, and as
Frank Williams says, "distracting".
Megan Pingree
Portland, OR
pmpingree@aol.com
Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2001 00:25:04 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Technique of rotating
> A nice follower will trust their leader and assume that the
> leads ARE what was intended. Think about it. If you are
> simultaneously lifting her with the right arm and badly leading
> a pivot (moving her off axis), then your signals are NOT to
> pivot and then step. These simultaneous signals say "tip over"!
> You'd better be ready to manage (eg. hold her?) when she follows
> and gives you her body weight!
How very true. Now what is this "nice" follower to do, if every once in a
while some leader either walks around her in an eggshaped "circle", causing
her to fall over sideways, or leads the "tip over", and then looks at the
follower like she was either purposely trying to induce a hernia in him, or
does not have a clue how to dance ? Or at the very least this kind of guy
will let out a muffled scream ?
I am grateful that you mentioned this problem in public.
On the other hand there are leaders with whom the calesita is a very easy
clear move. They are usually the ones who
first: put me clearly on my right foot
second: make sure that their left part of their chest is placed against my
sternum, thus safely aligning our axis
third: with a slight turn get me to lean against them
fourth: then walk around me very gently, careful not to disturb my axis,
turning me with them
The difference between these and the former leaders is, that with the latter
ones I never loose my balance and to hold my back straight requires no
muscle force at all, because we can work with, not against the forces of
gravity.
Astrid
>
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 15:48:34 -0700
From: Mark Sussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Attitude rant (was Technique of rotating)
Astrid,
Thanks for that checklist about the carrousel. (I
guess that's the name for what I've been asking
about?) I appreciate the help from the viewpoint of a
follower.
--- astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP> wrote:
> and then looks at the
> follower like she was either purposely trying to
> induce a hernia in him, or
> does not have a clue how to dance ? Or at the very
> least this kind of guy
> will let out a muffled scream ?
I have been wanting to have my rant about "attitude"
for a long time. Now I'm loaded and ready to fire.
I hope the behavior you describe, Astrid, isn't
common. On the other hand, I'm sure it isn't exactly
rare, either. I do see "lessons" going on at
milongas. I don't get these guys.
I NEVER tell a woman what to do during social dancing.
I certainly don't reproach her. I invited her
because I wanted to dance with her, not because I
think she needs me to fix her problems. If she asks
me what she was supposed to do on a missed step, I
might tell her that I don't remember because I'm
already on the next phrase (true) or that she was
supposed to find a leader who knows how to lead that
step (also true, and hopefully amusing).
I have regular partners who are willing to work out
steps for the benefit of both of us. Sometimes we
surreptitiously find a corner at a milonga and have
our own clandestine practica. On the social floor, I
clamp my mouth shut. I've never been embarrassed or
regretful of something I DIDN'T say!
Sometimes I dance with a real lousy dancer who can't
do anything at all. Uh... it's wonderful music and a
beautiful woman... How bad can that be? Yayyyy It's
ALL gravy.
I hope I can find the dreamy dancer whose dance with
me will be a peak experience. Sometimes I do,
sometimes I don't, but I'm never sorry I came. And
that one dancer who earlier couldn't do anything comes
back later and is now doing something new, and isn't
that fun to experience a history together? You don't
experience that kind of satisfaction without patience
and a long view, but it can be very satisfying indeed.
Read my lips, guys...
SHUT UP!
There haven't been many times that I felt as if I
never wanted to dance with a particular woman again.
None of those few occasions had anything to do with
dancing ability. They were solely about attitude.
I don't care if a woman pulls me off my balance in a
molinete. It means I leave out the enrosques and
lapis. Maybe I do half grapevines and try to hold her
close. Or just do different steps! There will
certainly be occasions when I will appreciate her
forbearance regarding my own gaffs.
Guess what? No matter what happens, there's always
another phrase of music.
Maybe we'll get it next time. Meanwhile, there's a
certain fulfillment that comes from surviving shared
adversity! If your partner blows something, don't you
think he or she is gonna feel something about you when
you step along with his or her error and make sure you
both remain looking marvelous while screwing up?
That's a valid partner experience. There certainly
won't be any chances for more of them if you exhaust
your partner's good will.
And why would you want to anyway?
MARK
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 00:25:05 -0700
From: Mark Sussex <doktordogg@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: technique of rotating
--- Melinda Bates <tangerauna@EARTHLINK.NET> wrote:
> Since I can't think of
> one, it appears to me
> that without some signal, when the man steps to his
> right, the woman would
> naturally follow - with a step. Since we follow
> their chests it sure seems
> like a lead, UNLESS OTHERWISE INDICATED. By a
> subtle upward movement of the
> arm, for example........
There is another signal besides a lift(ing)...
First, I think Melinda certainly drives home the point
of making the vertical lead subtle. I tried out all
the great suggestions I got from the list in a
marathon weekend of dancing. It was very informative.
An hour of practica I spent with one partner revealed
a lot. She told me that when I'm trying to lead "up"
while she's on her right foot (like when I'm changing
my weight to go in a cross basic) I'm actually pushing
her over to her right. (I always wondered why
beginning followers kept side-stepping when they were
learning cross basic the first time... uh... it was
me... suh-prize.)
When I dance vals, I "breathe" a lot. I'm not talking
about the kind of rise and fall you do in true
Viennese waltz, but I do something naturally in my
upper body already to show weight and syncopation.
It's no more energetic and dramatic than "breathing"
on an "up" feel.
Melinda mentioned other leads to communicate to a
woman not to step. I had an experiment in mind, and
Megan from the list gave me some encouragement along
this line. I did it all weekend, and it worked every
time.
If I were going to lead back ochos, I would turn my
chest to my left when I'm stepping to my left side in
order to lead my partner onto her left foot. However,
what if I did the same thing with my chest, but I
didn't step to my left, but stepped backwards with my
left foot. The leftward lead of my chest sends my
partners left foot around and back, so it's "locked".
This worked like a charm every time I tried it. I
asked some of my partners about it, and they told me
they couldn't step on their left foot if they wanted
to. If I didn't back up into a bridge I could walk
them around in a carrousel with this constant leftward
lead of my chest while stepping right. This worked
great when I remembered to follow Astrid's suggestion
to establish chest contact in close embrace first.
Thanks to everyone who helped me. I'm not an expert
yet, but I got an introduction to this step and now I
can rely on it and work to make it smoother, more
attractive, and more comfortable.
Mark
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 16:32:40 -0700
From: Robert Hauk <robhauk@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject: Attitude rant (was Technique of rotating)
Mark,
I am late in responding to this because I have been busy but I wanted to
say that I totally agree with what Mark said. I loved his little rant
(if you don't remember it it is quoted below in part). This is the
attitude of a good social dancer. I also don't say anything critical to
my dance partners. When I ask someone to dance I am not asking them to
be my student. I want to dance. If I say anything to them it is
something about what was very nice in their dancing. I say this after
the dance is over as we walk off the dance floor.
Hopefully we are all wanting to be social dancers, even if we also like
to perform or whatever else we might do with tango. If we want to have
a good dance community to enjoy then this issue has another face. When
people spend a lot of time telling their partners how to dance while
they dance it can make things really tough for new people. I have been
involved in building our tango scene for a long time, either running a
practica or hosting a milonga, and I have seen the effect of this on the
growth of the tango community.
It seems like most people go through this phase as they learn to dance
tango, or any other dance for that matter. They feel like they finally
know something, or maybe they are a little insecure and want to look
like they know something. The guys who are going through this seem to
dance almost exclusively with the beginning women, and they teach all
night on the dance floor. The women hear a steady stream of advice from
people too inexperienced to really be giving advice. If there are a
couple of guys who are bad about doing this most women who try tango
will quit out of frustration. They hear one thing from one guy, and the
next guy tells them something different. I hear more about the men who
are causing this kind of problem but it isn't limitted to men. I have
heard some stories from men as well about women they danced with who
made them feel really bad with their constant advice.
As I said everyone goes through a little of this but when someone gets
stuck at this point they need to be pushed to shut up and dance. If
they don't they will not develop as dancers and they will adversely
effect the growth of the whole community. We need to be patient with
people, but we cannot afford to just turn our back. We need to take
care of the new people so that they stay long enough to get hooked.
I talk about it in my classes and I tell the women thay these guys tell
them what to do because the guys aren't experienced enough to dance with
everyone. They need their partner to dance in some special way or they
can't dance. I also tell the new women to seek out the more experienced
women and ask them about the men. They will find out all they need to
know about who to listen to. The guys hear all of this and I hope they
get the idea from the beginning that they shouldn't give advice, or they
should already know that it is a sign of an inexperienced dancer.
We will never stop people from teaching on the social dance floor. It
happens in every dance community, but we can establish the norm that it
is tacky behavior, and keep it in it's rightful place within our
communities. The experienced dancers should dance with the beginners
and give them all the encouragement possible. They will learn faster,
and then they will be great to dance with. We need to let them learn at
their own pace and help them along the way. When we see people who
teach a lot we should push them to stop teaching. If they just dance
and quit acting like they know so much they will begin to learn how to
really dance with everyone. Then they can join the ranks of the truly
experienced dancers of the community.
Happy dances to all,
Robert
Mark Wrote:
> I have been wanting to have my rant about "attitude"
> for a long time. Now I'm loaded and ready to fire.
>
> I hope the behavior you describe, Astrid, isn't
> common. On the other hand, I'm sure it isn't exactly
> rare, either. I do see "lessons" going on at
> milongas. I don't get these guys.
>
> I NEVER tell a woman what to do during social dancing.
> I certainly don't reproach her. I invited her
> because I wanted to dance with her, not because I
> think she needs me to fix her problems. If she asks
> me what she was supposed to do on a missed step, I
> might tell her that I don't remember because I'm
> already on the next phrase (true) or that she was
> supposed to find a leader who knows how to lead that
> step (also true, and hopefully amusing).
