3408 Waving Butts
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 11:59:43 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Waving Butts
"What do you look for in a leader when you watch the floor trying to
determine who you want to dance with?"..
"I look at his butt, looking to see if he moves in sort of a 'wave'. "
from Razor Girl.
Yes, I have notices that there are quite a lot of "waving butts" around this
days.
I want to ask you, tango gurus, is it something which belongs to tango?
Is it foreign, or in line of correct modern dancing?
Who invented it?
I do not "wave with my butt", only unless I want to tease "butt-wavers",
Am I wrong?
Am I a bad dancer on your dance floor, if I do not do it?
C'mon, I know that you are reading it, answer me, defend your style!
Igor Polk
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 15:20:25 -0400
From: Rick Jones <rwjones@FROZENGRAVITY.COM>
Subject: Re: Waving Butts
This is not a defense of a style, Igor, but simply one guy's stab at an
explanation...
On two visits to Buenos Aires last year, my wife and I took some private
lessons with one of Janis's milonguero friends, Roberto Angel Pujol (I
think I got that right). The focus during most of the lessons was
posture and the embrace (i.e., no steps). Although there was some small
language barrier requiring third party translation, one of the things he
emphasized was a sort of rolling of the hips that could conceivably be
interpreted as "waving butts." Again, there was a language barrier, but
from the outside, it looked exactly as if that's what he was trying to
get across: waving butts. And I see the exact same thing on a Tete vals
tape that some friends have.
I recently took some private lessons with Susana Miller during her tour
in the U.S. Interestingly enough, her focus was pretty much on the same
things Janis's milonguero friend Roberto taught. Only this time there
was no language barrier, and what she explained was that the "waving
butt" thing was actually a manifestation of the correct transfer of
weight between the legs. We spent some time doing the weight transfer
correctly ("waving butt") and incorrectly. My wife's feedback -- which
could be related to what Rose's friends are really looking for -- is
that when the leader is transferring the weight between the legs
correctly ("waving butt"), the feeling to the follower is a very
well-grounded and lush feeling. When done incorrectly, the feeling is
that of dancing with a stick man.
So, I don't think the focus is so much the "waving butt" part; rather,
the waving butt is an indicator that the leader is transferring weight
correctly.
Just my $0.02 worth.
Rick Jones
Washington DC
Igor Polk wrote:
>"What do you look for in a leader when you watch the floor trying to
>determine who you want to dance with?"..
>"I look at his butt, looking to see if he moves in sort of a 'wave'. "
>from Razor Girl.
>
>Yes, I have notices that there are quite a lot of "waving butts" around this
>days.
>
>I want to ask you, tango gurus, is it something which belongs to tango?
>Is it foreign, or in line of correct modern dancing?
>Who invented it?
>
>I do not "wave with my butt", only unless I want to tease "butt-wavers",
>Am I wrong?
>Am I a bad dancer on your dance floor, if I do not do it?
>
>C'mon, I know that you are reading it, answer me, defend your style!
>
>Igor Polk
>
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 12:39:18 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Waving Butts
I think you are talking about a movement what women do at ocho cortado, it
is not much of a waving butt, but full transfer of the weight on the hip. I
never saw anything like that done by a man in traditional tango.
I would never explain the transfer with this term "waving butt", just
because it has very little to do with butts.
It redirects student's attention to another thing.
Also it seems to me your was referring to the way the receiving leg accepts
the weight ( sometimes ). Like in Corte. In most of the cases the center of
gravity is not put over the receiving foot. This foot as whole leg just
pushes from the floor, creating a forth which supports the weight and tilted
from the vertical position. Sometimes leg is straighten, creating, yeah,
sort of butt wave, especiall women's, but most of the time not. There is
million ways to do it without your butt waving. Explaining it as waving
closes many other opportunities of doing it.
Here, in San Franciso this movement is done differently. It really looks
like waving a butt for the purpose of waving. Sort of tango-samba fusion
element.
So, it goes from Susana Miller?
Igor Polk
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:18:38 -0400
From: Rick Jones <rwjones@FROZENGRAVITY.COM>
Subject: Re: Waving Butts
Igor Polk wrote:
>I never saw anything like that done by a man in traditional tango.
>
>
Well, I saw it from a milonguero in BsAs, as well as from Tete on one of
his vals tapes.
>So, it goes from Susana Miller?
>
>
>
Once again, I learned it first from a milonguero in BsAs, and then
recently from Susana Miller in the U.S.
Also, please remember...it was just one stab at an explanation. I make
no claims to even understand what Rose was talking about and I could be
totally mixed up. This was just one guy's $0.02 worth.
Rick Jones
Washington DC
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 14:02:49 -0700
From: Trini or Sean - PATangoS <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Waving Butts
I would venture to say that the "waving butt" is just
part of the whole contra body package inherent in the
body. This means if the left leg goes forward, the
right shoulder comes forward to (similar with the
other side). The movement comes from the abdomen and
loose hips carry it down to the legs (the legs walk in
an S pattern).
The hips work with the muscles of the torso and legs
to produce this wonderful effect that many American
men have not mastered for simple walking. It makes
QQS walking much easier. The butt may just be the
most visible sign of it because it can be subtle in
the torso.
Daniel Lapadula describes it as a figure 8 between the
shoulders and hips. Florencia Tacetti, Daniela (of
Daniela & Armando), Susana Miller and Robert Hauk have
all taught us parts of it to some degree. Working
with Alexander Technique has also developed this.
When one remembers that the torso, hip, and leg
movements are all connected, the contra body comes
much easier. Relaxed torso muscles are also
important. When I successfully get a partner doing
contra body, one who doesn't normally do it, they
usually find themselves enjoying the dance a lot more.
Never works if the partner is tense.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 14:20:25 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Waving Butts
I am sorry, Rick,
Did your BsAs milonguero actually said to you "Wave your butt!" ?
Who actually used the term "Waving the butt" first?
Well, I have to admit that I was wrong when I said "I never saw anything
like that..."
Of course, something like that happens, as I realize after your message,
thank you! I saw exactly the same movement in salsa, where it is happens
much more often, but I never would even imagine that a reputable milonguero
or a teacher would say "It is like waving the butt". It is ridiculous!
Jee, I never even thought that I wave my butt in tango!
Just tried it. You know, there are 2 way to make the movement - one is
emphasizing the butt wave, another is to restrain it. It has nothing to do
with the mechanique of the movement. I'll stick to the second one.
I have nothing against waiving a butt. I love to watch and dance samba where
this skill it put to extreme.
I only want to find out who started the marvelous fusion of tango and samba
which in turn may lead to more exiting developments.
I dislike the term "Waving Butt" in tango because it emphasizes the wrong
thing. The same step can be done in dozens of different ways. "Waving Butt"
is only one of them. If a teacher says to you that "This movement is done
waving your butt" It only means she/he does not know that there are 12 other
methods.
Igor Polk
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 16:31:58 -0500
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@CEVERETT.COM>
Subject: Re: Waving Butts
I think Igor is having a bit of fun, he knows full well that "butts
moving in a wave" does not mean "waving butts". ;)
That being said, I think the "butt moving in a wave" comment has to
do with clear, explicit and complete weight transfer as a basic part
of the men's dance. AFAIK, a step happens in tango when the weight
moves completely onto one foot. And there's the concept of "lead a
step, wait for her to follow and then follow her".
In the embrace, the centers of the woman and the man are connected,
and weight transfers must happen at the same time. If I lead something
when her center lies over one foot, then I need very little force to
move her otherwise . So women get accustomed to listen for the lead
in "neutral position" with their axis over one foot, and a good lead
learns to wait until she's done taking a step to take the next step.
On the man's side, if I miss my landing and don't shift my weight all
the way, then I've asked her to take a step and then failed to follow
her, thus breaking the connection.
Even dancing primarily with a shared axis and most of your time with
all your weight on both feet spread apart a la Cacho Dante, failing
to shift all your weight onto one foot in the process of taking a step
makes the woman unexpectedly change direction with her weight shared
between her feet.
--
Christopher L. Everett
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 14:45:14 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: Waving Butts
Couse I know, I live in San Francisco,
That is why I especially think the term is inappropriate.
Here are some non-tango waving butts:
https://www.virtuar.com/ysf2/ap-Pride-Parade.htm ( java required )
and links to my previous messages,
they were lost somewhere between the threads:
https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2005/msg01273.html
https://pythia.uoregon.edu/~llynch/Tango-L/2005/msg01267.html
Igor.
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 14:54:18 -0700
From: Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Waving Butts
Igor Polk wrote:
"I never saw anything like that done by a man in traditional tango."
I have seen several old milongueros as well as younger male dancers do this
in BA and in the US.
Carlos Rojas
El Morocho
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2005 11:39 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Waving Butts
I think you are talking about a movement what women do at ocho cortado, it
is not much of a waving butt, but full transfer of the weight on the hip. I
never saw anything like that done by a man in traditional tango.
I would never explain the transfer with this term "waving butt", just
because it has very little to do with butts.
It redirects student's attention to another thing.
Also it seems to me your was referring to the way the receiving leg accepts
the weight ( sometimes ). Like in Corte. In most of the cases the center of
gravity is not put over the receiving foot. This foot as whole leg just
pushes from the floor, creating a forth which supports the weight and tilted
from the vertical position. Sometimes leg is straighten, creating, yeah,
sort of butt wave, especiall women's, but most of the time not. There is
million ways to do it without your butt waving. Explaining it as waving
closes many other opportunities of doing it.
Here, in San Franciso this movement is done differently. It really looks
like waving a butt for the purpose of waving. Sort of tango-samba fusion
element.
So, it goes from Susana Miller?
Igor Polk
Date: Tue, 10 May 2005 14:56:55 -0700
From: Carlos Rojas <Crojas@HACIENDACDC.ORG>
Subject: Re: Waving Butts
"Who actually used the term "Waving the butt" first?"
Adam of course, did you actually believe it was an apple?
