1319  White Flags/DJs

Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 17:56:43 -0600
From: Lynne Butler <lynneoaks@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: White Flags/DJs

Hi List. Here's an excellent pointer from one of those amazing DJs:
"It's really a bad time to interact with a DJ just before a set is about to
end, or during a cortina. They are incredibly busy then. The ideal time to
put yourself in position (great phrase) to be asked is right after the
cortina ends."

And for milonga organizers -- a really great dancer mentioned that at their
milongas they have a sort of "social space" -- a place in view of the dance
floor, but set apart for snacks, sitting, etc. So the signal that it's okay
to socialize is a function of the space. Cool. Thanks again, Lynne

>From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
>Reply-To: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
><TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
>To: Recipients of TANGO-L digests <TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU>
>Subject: TANGO-L Digest - 25 May 2003 to 27 May 2003 (#2003-135)
>Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 03:00:01 -0400
>
>There are 4 messages totalling 143 lines in this issue.
>
>Topics of the day:
>
> 1. Virus Warning of a tango site
> 2. bandoneon (2)
> 3. White Flags (Denver)
>
>
>
>Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 15:56:29 +0300
>From: "Aydogan (El Encuentro)" <aydogan@TANGOENCUENTRO.COM>
>Subject: Virus Warning of a tango site
>
>Dear List,
>
>If you get a message with "Very funny Tango web site" subject, do not
>open it. I was warned by my ISP, that it contained virus, and the
>attachment was deleted.
>
>Regards,
>Aydogan
>www.tangoenceuntro.com <https://www.tangoenceuntro.com/>
>
>
>Date: Thu, 22 May 2003 01:52:41 -0300
>From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
>Subject: bandoneon
>
>20 May 2003, Rick from Portland wrote:
>
>"The buttons didn't have any markings, numbers, notes on them. I nosed
>around the net & found various stabs at standardizing the layout, etc. I
>played alto & baritone sax in Franklin High's band in the mid 70s, & the
>layout, keying, scales were quite straightforward. If anyone has a simple
>explanation of how they play this beautiful instrument, I'd love to hear
>it.
>Looks like there is a ton of keys, a lever of somekind & many combinations
>of keystrokes?"
>
>
>
>Isn't it interesting how a German church instrument made its way to Buenos
>Aires and then became an essential part of tango orchestras?
>
>The tango and the bandoneon have a lot in common--neither one is
>straightforward nor simple.
>
>Pichi de Buenos Aires
>
>
>Date: Mon, 26 May 2003 20:37:36 +0200
>From: Christian Lüthen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
>Subject: Re: bandoneon
>
>On 22 May 2003 at 1:52, Janis Kenyon wrote:
>
> >
> > Isn't it interesting how a German church instrument made its way to
> > Buenos Aires and then became an essential part of tango orchestras?
> >
> > The tango and the bandoneon have a lot in common--neither one is
> > straightforward nor simple.
>
>or, as astor piazzolla said it at NYC central park concert:
>'originally a church istrument from germany,
>it made it's way to the hure-houses of buenos aires,
>and now here in central park'.
>
>[well, more or less, I do not remember the words exactly.]
>
>but still: they say that it *is* actually learnable. :-))
>christian
>
>christian@eTanguero.net
>https://www.eTanguero.net/
>
>
>Date: Tue, 27 May 2003 00:09:41 -0600
>From: Lynne Butler <lynneoaks@HOTMAIL.COM>
>Subject: White Flags (Denver)
>
>Wonderful job Tom, et. al!!!!
>My thanks to the entire Denver community and all those DJs and performers
>who made it so vibrant and magical. I had an amazing time. Julio and
>Corina, heart-stopping. Tango Mujer, aaahhhhhh!.
>
>There is one kind of funky thing, though, that my friend and I talked about
>on our way home and I d love to hear how others on the list feel about it.
>Your suggestions, etc.
>It s this question: Is it possible to make a non-threatening,
>non-dance-asking, friendly gesture toward a sort-of stranger of the
>opposite
>sex at a milonga? Just a friendly "hello" -- without fearing you ll be
>perceived as a heat-seeking missle to be avoided at all costs using
>elaborate eye-manipulations or a fast break for the water?
>I imagine the dilemma (if there is one) stems a little from our borrowed Bs
>As tradition of using eye contact to secure dances (which I know has been
>discussed on this list before). And yeah, it works great for asking and
>avoiding dances -- but does anyone else feel that it has a twilight zone
>result too? There were times I kind of wished I had a little white flag
>so
>I could walk up to someone, even a more advanced dancer than myself, waving
>it, and feel free to say, for example, I ve read your comments on Tango-L
>and you make a lot of sense or Thanks for being a great DJ, your
>playlist
>is wonderful or "We met a year ago in Chile," or I think you know my
>dear friend Jane in Portland, how s she doing, and would you give her a hug
>for me?"
>A few of my awkward attempts at such brief conversations like this weekend
>resulted in really pleasant exchanges. (It always seemed okay to express
>appreciation to theTango Mujer women, for example, but maybe that was okay
>because there was no fear I was asking for a dance) -- But very often,
>when it was a man I didn't know, it felt uncomfortable, if not chilly, --
>like I d somehow forgotten to read the rules for meeting the Queen. I m
>kidding on that --though not entirely.
>Of course, I know milongas are for dancing, not chatting and perhaps any
>approach from someone you don't know is suspicious -- because this approach
>is also often how the dance transaction is made. But is there a way to
>make these big weekends, which bring together strangers, who are not really
>strangers, (because of things like Tango-L where we get "familiar" with
>each
>other even if we've never met)-- Is there a way to make them more natural
>social situations. Classes seem more relaxed, and parties help, but even
>there attempts at casual converation seems to be met with some wariness.
>Is
>it utterly impossible at milongas themselves? Maybe so. (By the way, I
>don t want to suggest this is a problem limited to women approaching men, I
>imagine many men may experience this as well).
>And I want to re-emphasize that the weekend was wonderful and everyone
>should come to Denver if you can! I'd just love to know what others think
>on this topic.
>
>
>
>

Date: Wed, 28 May 2003 23:37:25 -0700
From: Robert Hauk <robhauk@TELEPORT.COM>
Subject: Re: White Flags/DJs

Hey everyone,

As one of the DJs for the Denver weekend I might add a few things to
this discussion. First, the DJ is sometimes very busy at the beginning
of a set choosing what to play for the next set. That is the way I work
anyway. Because of this I don't often get a chance to do a lot of
asking during the milonga when I am working. By the time I get a chance
to start asking, everyone is already dancing to the first song. Because
of this I don't get a chance to dance with the popular dancers if they
don't make an opening for me. Often if they are sitting down it is
because they are tired and don't want to dance. So what's a DJ to do?
Well I talk with anyone who comes by, and I dance with who is available,
and I have as good a time as I can. Since I end up dancing with a lot
of people I don't know I meet a lot of new people and often have good
dances. Then I have more possible dance partners for nights when I am
not busy DJing and can ask who I want.

It is impossible at a milonga to know if someone just wants to talk or
if they want to dance. I usually assume that they want to dance, and I
appreciate when someone comes over and sits down, and makes an opening
to talk, possibly making an opening to dance but giving me the chance to
just sit and talk. It is fun to talk with people from different
communities, and I have as much fun just socializing as I do dancing at
these festivals. After talking a bit it usually works out to dance,
regardless of my partner's experience level, since there is already some
feeling of knowing each other. If someone has been working up the nerve
to ask me to dance the talking may help create a more relaxed and fun
dance.

The Argentine way of asking with the eyes is charming when you are in
Buenos Aires, but we have to remember that those codes of behavior
evolved for certain reasons over a long period of time. I feel like we
have to evolve our own codes that work for our culture. Most of the
people I meet dancing tango didn't grow up with social dancing so as we
build our communities we also have to build codes of conduct. There is
a lot to learn from the process. We probably should learn to ask for
what we want, that is if you just want to talk you might say something
to that effect when you approach someone. We should also learn to give
the person we are approaching the chance to talk but not to dance,
without taking it as an outright no. Also we have to recognize that any
approach at a milonga contains the possibility of a dance. Above all
since there can be misunderstandings we have to be as polite and
understanding with each other as possible.

Abrazos,

Robert






Lynne Butler wrote:

>
> Hi List. Here's an excellent pointer from one of those amazing DJs:
> "It's really a bad time to interact with a DJ just before a set is about to
> end, or during a cortina. They are incredibly busy then. The ideal time to
> put yourself in position (great phrase) to be asked is right after the
> cortina ends."
>
> And for milonga organizers -- a really great dancer mentioned that at their
> milongas they have a sort of "social space" -- a place in view of the dance
> floor, but set apart for snacks, sitting, etc. So the signal that it's okay
> to socialize is a function of the space. Cool. Thanks again, Lynne

Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2003 11:50:58 -0700
From: Ward Stevens <wcstevens@WORLDNET.ATT.NET>
Subject: Re: White Flags/DJs

Dear Robert,

I've got to take exception to
some of what you say here.

In particular to your comments
about the head and eye method
of asking for dances. This
system developed as you say
over a long period of time but
it did so because it was the only
workable system anyone could find.

Our "just walk up to the women and
ask" system is a complete train
wreck. In the end it just means
that anyone willing to respect
the follows feelings won't get to
dance.

It's possible that with modifications
our system could work but it would
be at least as hard to bandage our
system as to just use the tried and
true Argentine system.

If we are to reinvent the wheel we
must start with two crucial pieces:

1. When a follow says no the
lead accepts it instead of
persisting, arguing or flat
out yanking her out to her
seat (I've personally
observed all three behaviors
at Portland dances by people
up to and including self
professed community leaders.)

2. Feminine solidarity has got
to be modified at least in
that the follows have got to
stop punishing leads for getting
a no. Follows have to accept
that another follow may have some
other reason for not dancing
that labeling the lead as
unacceptable.

-Ward.

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 11:37 PM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] White Flags/DJs


Hey everyone,

As one of the DJs for the Denver weekend I might add a few things to
this discussion. First, the DJ is sometimes very busy at the beginning
of a set choosing what to play for the next set. That is the way I work
anyway. Because of this I don't often get a chance to do a lot of
asking during the milonga when I am working. By the time I get a chance
to start asking, everyone is already dancing to the first song. Because
of this I don't get a chance to dance with the popular dancers if they
don't make an opening for me. Often if they are sitting down it is
because they are tired and don't want to dance. So what's a DJ to do?
Well I talk with anyone who comes by, and I dance with who is available,
and I have as good a time as I can. Since I end up dancing with a lot
of people I don't know I meet a lot of new people and often have good
dances. Then I have more possible dance partners for nights when I am
not busy DJing and can ask who I want.

It is impossible at a milonga to know if someone just wants to talk or
if they want to dance. I usually assume that they want to dance, and I
appreciate when someone comes over and sits down, and makes an opening
to talk, possibly making an opening to dance but giving me the chance to
just sit and talk. It is fun to talk with people from different
communities, and I have as much fun just socializing as I do dancing at
these festivals. After talking a bit it usually works out to dance,
regardless of my partner's experience level, since there is already some
feeling of knowing each other. If someone has been working up the nerve
to ask me to dance the talking may help create a more relaxed and fun
dance.

The Argentine way of asking with the eyes is charming when you are in
Buenos Aires, but we have to remember that those codes of behavior
evolved for certain reasons over a long period of time. I feel like we
have to evolve our own codes that work for our culture. Most of the
people I meet dancing tango didn't grow up with social dancing so as we
build our communities we also have to build codes of conduct. There is
a lot to learn from the process. We probably should learn to ask for
what we want, that is if you just want to talk you might say something
to that effect when you approach someone. We should also learn to give
the person we are approaching the chance to talk but not to dance,
without taking it as an outright no. Also we have to recognize that any
approach at a milonga contains the possibility of a dance. Above all
since there can be misunderstandings we have to be as polite and
understanding with each other as possible.

Abrazos,

Robert






Lynne Butler wrote:

>
> Hi List. Here's an excellent pointer from one of those amazing DJs:
> "It's really a bad time to interact with a DJ just before a set is about

to

> end, or during a cortina. They are incredibly busy then. The ideal time

to

> put yourself in position (great phrase) to be asked is right after the
> cortina ends."
>
> And for milonga organizers -- a really great dancer mentioned that at

their

> milongas they have a sort of "social space" -- a place in view of the

dance

> floor, but set apart for snacks, sitting, etc. So the signal that it's

okay

> to socialize is a function of the space. Cool. Thanks again, Lynne

Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 23:10:33 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: White Flags/DJs

My goodness, Ward, you make Portland sound like the pits.

What does it imply, if:

> Our "just walk up to the women and
> ask" system is a complete train
> wreck. In the end it just means
> that anyone willing to respect
> the follows feelings won't get to
> dance.

Does this mean, basically, all the followers have come to the milongas just
to sit, they do not like any of the men present, they all don't want to
dance, and the only way for the men to get them to dance is by disregarding
their "feelings", using force, I assume?

Well, here you present us with the facts (?) in the next paragraph:

If we are to reinvent the wheel we
must start with two crucial pieces:

> 1. When a follow says no the
> lead accepts it instead of
> persisting, arguing or flat
> out yanking her out to her
> seat (I've personally
> observed all three behaviors
> at Portland dances by people
> up to and including self
> professed community leaders.)

Your men seem to have indeed resorted to this means, to get the unwilling
women off the couch. 'Give her wrist a hearty yank, and you'll get to dance
part of the next tanda, at least.' Actually, if this is how the men treat
the ladies, and moreover see them as "follows", regardless of the discussion
we have just been thru about women preferring to be regarded as human
beings, actually- well, I am not surprised, that the ladies feel the way you
describe.

> 2. Feminine solidarity has got
> to be modified at least in
> that the follows have got to
> stop punishing leads for getting
> a no. > >

I see. Women ganging up on the men, trying to sort out and warn each other
about who is particularly unchivalrous?
I dunno, I dunno, Ward, this all sounds too bad to be true.

I have always thought, that, as social venues, milongas are a little
strange, what with people impatiently scanning the room if anyone wants to
have a conversation with them instead of asking for a dance, with men
getting paranoid if a woman tries to smile and talk to them because she is
sure to ask for a dance next and all the other behaviour recently discussed
on the list, that would seem completely absurd and antisocial at any other
kind of party, but now Ward tells us of conditions that need to be changed,
like men yanking women out of their seat, if their invitation get refused.
This all sounds a bit as though a lot of people somehow leave their common
sense at home, if they are out to dance tango. What is it with this dance ?

Astrid

P.S.
(Not completely serious)

Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 10:12:40 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Intersexual Hostility at Milongas [was White Flags/DJs]

Who would have ever guessed that new-age Portland was a hot bed of latent
and/or blatant intersexual hostility that boiled over at milongas.

>>When a follow says no the lead accepts it instead of persisting, arguing

or flat out yanking her out to her seat (I've personally observed all
three behaviors at Portland dances by people up to and including self
professed community leaders.)<<

Look what happens when you take tango out of its original context. No eye
game. The men are neutered to become leads. The women are neutered to
become follows. And despite having been neutered, the leads have all the
subtlety of cavemen treating their counterparts, the follows, like
cavewomen by grabbing them by the wrist and pulling them onto the dance
floor. Do the leads also speak in monosyllablic grunts? Maybe the
neutering occurred too late in life?

>>Feminine solidarity has got to be modified at least in that the follows

have got to stop punishing leads for getting a no. Follows have to accept
that another follow may have some other reason for not dancing that
labeling the lead as unacceptable.<<

Seems like Ward reports why some Portland leads cannot accept a no even
after having been neutered. Being observed getting a no is costly. Once
a former male is observed getting a no from a former female, the lead no
longer gets to dance. It would be the perfect explanation for aggression
if the leads were actually still male and tango were a form of a mating
ritual.

Perhaps, we have proven that the courtly manners that are typically
imposed in more traditional social contexts to control naked aggression
were too quickly dispensed with after dancers were neutered. Perhaps, we
have proven that testosterone is unneccessary for aggressive behavior.
Perhaps, it's time to form a commission for the deneuterfication of tango
in North America.

--Steve

P.S. Not Completely Serious

Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2003 10:09:34 -0700
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: White Flags/DJs

> ... Actually, if this
> is how the men treat
> the ladies, and moreover see them as "follows",
> regardless of the discussion
> we have just been thru about women preferring to be
> regarded as human
> beings, ...

Hi, Astrid,

I first read the next subject line in this thread as
"intertextual hostility" - too much learning, I guess.

Anyhow, I clearly set off the testosterone alarms -
men who would never have thought of using "lead" and
"follow" for humans before have now jumped into the
discussion of invitation, refusing, etc. using both of
them. Apparently it is so important to them to
demonstrate that they will not cave into "PC"
blathering like mine they would prefer to write
inaccurately and with these ugly phrases than just to
go on talking about leaders and followers - or men and
women.

What can you do?

Cheers!
Marisa