2385 Why I like the milonguero style (lengthy)
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 22:11:02 -0700
From: peterwesser <peterwesser@OREGONDUCKS.ORG>
Subject: Why I like the milonguero style (lengthy)
The milonguero style embrace/posture is a particular, some may say, a
peculiar close embrace. It affords maximum connection between the
partners.
Following some philosophical musings about the "why" question which I
need to approach in a round-about way. Here goes.
Ev, a tanguera and friend, related a most memorable experience. In
short, she observed a man eating a dessert in a café with the utmost
relaxed concentration and visible pleasure, She attributed his
absorption to the extraordinariness of the dessert. After she ordered
and tasted the very same dessert, she discovered it was plain yogurt.
I need the help of Proust to find words to describe the possible
experience of the yogurt eater: "I raised to my lips a spoonful of the
tea in which I had soaked a morsel of the cake. No sooner had the warm
liquid mixed with the crumbs touched my palate than a shiver ran through
me and I stopped, intent upon the extraordinary thing that was happening
to me. An exquisite pleasure had invaded my senses, something isolated,
detached with no suggestion of its origin. And at once the vicissitudes
of life had become indifferent to me, its disasters innocuous, its
brevity illusory --."
Proust seems to describe a Zen-like meditative experience which can be
had, as pointed out by the ancient Zen master Dogen, when walking or
washing rice. This means a total absorption in the moment, a total
integration of body, mind, doing, and material in the present. There is
no dichotomous "inner" or "outer," there is no past or future intruding.
It's colloquially expressed as "being in the here and now." Artists and
athletes attest to such experience most readily. Tennis players and
golfers talk about hitting the sweet spot, which is just such a moment.
Larry Bird talked about playing "in a zone." I have on occasion felt
this for a minute or more while racing sailboats on San Francisco Bay;
everything on and about the boat in balance, in tune. Indeed an
exquisite pleasure.
Zen masters tell us that such "nirvanic" experience can be had in many
of our ordinary doings and makings, albeit mostly unrealized in the
routine and "must do" of daily life. A practice like tango dancing is in
some sense an escape from daily routine. This may account for the
heightened possibility of a "nirvanic" experience when dancing.
I dare say that these feeling of oneness with partner and music, oneness
with all there is, this felling of moving "in a zone' is afforded most
readily in the milonguero embrace. At least that is true for me when not
pre-occupied with the mechanics of "the steps," or how I "look." (We
should ideally confine these concerns to lessons and practicas, so I
tell myself. Alas .). At best such feeling is fleeting and elusive, but
most worthy of pursuit.
Can such feeling not be had practicing other types of embraces,
practicing a performance style? Emotions/feelings/experiences belong to
the individual and can only be explored by the individual. All I can say
is why I like the milonguero style. Am I unique? I don't think so
judging by the relaxed intensity I have experienced, especially in
Buenos Aires. A parting question: do some people find this kind of
experience scary in a tango situation?
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 20:56:26 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: Why I like the milonguero style
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 22:11:02 -0700
From: peterwesser <peterwesser@OREGONDUCKS.ORG>
Subject: Why I like the milonguero style (lengthy)
The milonguero style embrace/posture is a particular, some may say, a
peculiar close embrace. It affords maximum connection between the partners.
>>>snip
I dare say that these feeling of oneness with partner and music, oneness
with all there is, this felling of moving "in a zone' is afforded most
readily in the milonguero embrace. At least that is true for me when not
pre-occupied with the mechanics of "the steps," or how I "look."
>>>snip
All I can say is why I like the milonguero style. Am I unique? I don't think
so judging by the relaxed intensity I have experienced, especially in Buenos
Aires.
Peter, the milongueros and the women who dance with them would agree with
you. This is how the milongueros have danced since they were
teenagers--embracing a woman. To them, tango IS an embrace. There's
nothing scary about it. Many [Americans] aren't accustomed to physical
closeness when dancing with strangers; whereas, Argentines think nothing of
it. Tango is a way for us to break down barriers and communicate in a new
way.
Recently, a man from Ohio visited BsAs for the first time. He met
milonguero Pedro Sanchez and had some classes. He wrote me after his visit,
"We went to a Practica here last night and after dancing in BA she [my wife]
found that American dancers, whom she thought were good, did not compare
with their BA counterparts. She is spoiled now. In addition, I am caught
between what I learned in BA and what is expected here, an entirely
different way of dance. But we have only been dancing for 6 months and have
a lot to learn." I suggested he ask his wife how she wants to dance with
him.
Another man who is here for his first visit wrote me that he wanted to learn
tango from a milonguero. I was surprised to receive this response from him
after his private lesson with Jorge De Gouvea & Irma: "when I return to NZ,
I will not be able to use what I have been taught. I would virtually be the
only person in the country that had a grounding, it would be wonderful to
have if I could use it, and if I didn't use it, I would loose it.
There is a big difference in the way tango is being taught around the world
and the way it is danced in the milongas by the milongueros. I have heard
women say that what is lacking in their hometown milongas is the kind of
embrace they get dancing with Argentines.
Pichi de Buenos Aires
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 11:23:18 -0400
From: Jennifer Bratt <gwynhefaire@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Why I like the milonguero style
I would like to say that the idea that Americans aren't accustomed to
physical closeness, or don't like it, or are frightened by it, is completely
untrue. I teach tango here in the USA to all levels, beginner through
advanced, and the only embrace I ever show is a close one - a warm and cozy
hug - 'milonguero' if you will. And never, EVER in the hundreds of classes
I've taught has anyone balked at this, or refused to put their chest against
their partner, or made a disgusted face, or was afraid of getting cooties.
In fact, surprise, the Americans seem to like it!!
The mythical 'milongueros' of Buenos Aires do not have an advantage because
they were born Argentine; they merely have the advantage of years of
practice. I've been to classes at Susana Miller's Academy in BsAs and the
Argentine students there felt exactly the same as the American students back
home.
(As for the Tango Zone, I think that dancing very rhythmically is one of the
things that will put you there quickest. It's like a mantra that
hypnotizes: Quick Quick Slow Slow, Quick Quick Slow Slow...zzzzzzzz.)
Regards,
Jennifer Bratt, NYC
www.close-embrace.com
>From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
>Peter, the milongueros and the women who dance with them would agree with
>you. This is how the milongueros have danced since they were
>teenagers--embracing a woman. To them, tango IS an embrace. There's
>nothing scary about it. Many [Americans] aren't accustomed to physical
>closeness when dancing with strangers; whereas, Argentines think nothing of
>it. Tango is a way for us to break down barriers and communicate in a new
>way.
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 11:08:08 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Why I like the milonguero style
Aside from stage tango, isn't ALL tango done in a close or very-close
embrace? The last time I was in the milongas of Buenos Aires, I never
saw tango at arms-length. I know that it is often taught that way in
the US, but perhaps these teachers have never been to Buenos Aires.
The biggest resistance to dancing close often comes from tango teachers
or organizers who seem to be project ing their own fears onto tender,
timid newcomers.
With respect to dancing close, my experience with North Americans (and
other cultures) is more like Jennifer's than Janis Kenyon. Maybe people
in Chicago don't like to be physically close?
Yes, I meet a FEW people who are really contact-averse (including some
Argentines), but they don't seem to stick too long in tango. I guess
even "open-embrace" tango is too close for them. I have noticed that
most women actually LIKE to be hugged. Men (in the US) also like hugs,
but are often a bit timid and "need permission" that in tango it is
okay to embrace the woman.
It is really a lot of fun to watch people discover the very-close
embrace!
You don't even have to force it: Teach the material open so they can
see the footsteps, but then demonstrate it close...It takes about
4-classes, and suddenly everyone is dancing very close. If the teacher
is uncomfortable with it, then the students pick that up... sort of a
self-fulfilling prophecy.
Obviously you don't mash beginners together the first day in class.
They are a little nervous or awkward at first. They have to get to know
the other students, become comfortable with the basic movements, see
the better dancers moving together as one...
The other comment I hear is that close-embrace is a more advanced style
of tango, appropriate only after you have mastered the open embrace.
Again I disagree with that assessment. All tango takes time to do well,
but you get better retention if you simplify the basic movements to the
point where the men can start to feel competent at an earlier stage.
The athletic steps of pivoting ochos and the turn with sacadas, really
requires a lot of preparation or foundation.
So, my experience is that it is easier to learn
close-embrace/milonguero, and move toward nuevo/salon, rather than the
opposite. Well, if the embrace isn't so seductive you don't want to
leave it!
On Apr 15, 2004, at 9:23 AM, Jennifer Bratt wrote:
> I would like to say that the idea that Americans aren't accustomed to
> physical closeness, or don't like it, or are frightened by it, is
> completely
> untrue. I teach tango here in the USA to all levels, beginner through
> advanced, and the only embrace I ever show is a close one - a warm and
> cozy
> hug - 'milonguero' if you will. And never, EVER in the hundreds of
> classes
> I've taught has anyone balked at this, or refused to put their chest
> against
> their partner, or made a disgusted face, or was afraid of getting
> cooties.
> In fact, surprise, the Americans seem to like it!!
> ...
> Regards,
> Jennifer Bratt, NYC
> www.close-embrace.com
>
>> From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
>> Peter, the milongueros and the women who dance with them would agree
>> with
>> you. This is how the milongueros have danced since they were
>> teenagers--embracing a woman. To them, tango IS an embrace. There's
>> nothing scary about it. Many [Americans] aren't accustomed to
>> physical
>> closeness when dancing with strangers; whereas, Argentines think
>> nothing of
>> it. Tango is a way for us to break down barriers and communicate in
>> a new
>> way.
>
> Tom Stermitz
1593 S Roslyn St
Denver, CO 80231
h: 303-388-2560
c: 303-725-5963
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 21:24:38 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: Why I like the milonguero style
Jennifer Bratt of NYC wrote:
The mythical 'milongueros' of Buenos Aires do not have an advantage because
they were born Argentine; they merely have the advantage of years of
practice. I've been to classes at Susana Miller's Academy in BsAs and the
Argentine students there felt exactly the same as the American students back
home. [end quote]
You call them "mythical," but I dance with them. Women have told me that
dancing with an Argentine is different from dancing with an American. I
agree with them. Furthermore, dancing with a milonguero is different from
dancing with other Argentines. For this reason, I choose to dance only
with milongueros in the milongas. Years of practice? I'd say that after
50+ years dancing in the milongas, they're done practicing.
You say that students in Susana's classes felt the same as dancing with
Americans. My point exactly. They lack the feeling for the embrace.
Argentines in classes can't be compared with those who are regulars at the
milongas. I have danced with several Americans over the past few months in
BsAs. They do the steps well and with the music, but they're going through
the motions of tango without the most important element--the embrace.
Pichi de Buenos Aires
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 11:12:29 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
Subject: Re: Why I like the milonguero style
On Apr 15, 2004, at 9:23 AM, Jennifer Bratt wrote:
> I would like to say that the idea that Americans aren't accustomed to
> physical closeness, or don't like it, or are frightened by it, is
> completely
> untrue. I teach tango here in the USA to all levels, beginner through
> advanced, and the only embrace I ever show is a close one - a warm and
> cozy
> hug - 'milonguero' if you will. And never, EVER in the hundreds of
> classes
> I've taught has anyone balked at this, or refused to put their chest
> against
> their partner, or made a disgusted face, or was afraid of getting
> cooties.
> In fact, surprise, the Americans seem to like it!!
As I said before, I am more in agreement with Jennifer than with Janis.
Fear of close embrace:
I keep hearing from Janis Kenyon and others that people in the US, the
Midwest in particular, are more afraid of physical contact than on
either coast. I hear from some Midwestern instructors or organizers
that they can't present close-embrace because it would scare people
away from tango. I also hear that close-embrace is a "more advanced"
form of tango.
In the past year or so, I've taught six times in several cities of the
Midwest, and I can say categorically that EVEN in the Midwest, people
like to dance tango in the close-embrace. Maybe some of the teachers
are afraid of close embrace, maybe some experienced open-embrace
dancers find it difficult to dance close, or they are afraid to relearn
their concept of tango, but I know that my workshops on close-embrace
tango in the Midwest were very well received... In 2003 I taught
classes of 80-110 in Ann Arbor, MI; this year, Brigitta Winkler and I
split the classes because the attendance went even higher), in March I
taught classes of 50-80 in St Louis.
I think the attendance was high PRECISELY BECAUSE they were promoted as
"Social-Style Tango in the Close-Embrace"!
Filtering process in tango:
Tango isn't for EVERYONE. It is a passionate avocation for CERTAIN
people.
There is a filtering (in AND out) as newcomers arrive to Tango and
succeed or quit. Depending on a number of factors you have a drop-out
rate of 50-99%. People who like tango are most attracted to it, and are
more likely to stay BECAUSE tango is a close dance.
Yes, SOME people don't like to be too close to others, but that kind of
person even finds open-embrace tango too close for comfort. If you
cater to the fears of people who are going to drop-out anyway, you
forget to cater to the pleasures of those who came to tango for the
connection, romance and closeness.
Students are very perceptive in sensing the teacher's anxiety, so I
think that teachers who are afraid to present close embrace, or
apologize for it, or say "you don't have to dance close if you don't
want to", actually CAUSE the fearful response.
Higher Retention with close-embrace:
I would say that teaching close-embrace to beginners has a higher
retention than teaching open embrace for three reasons:
(1) More people come to tango because of images of romance, sensuality
and connection, than out of an analytical mindset, athleticism, or a
desire to be on stage (especially men!).
(2) Close-embrace is easier at first because the basic vocabulary is
somewhat simpler, and most people can be "up and dancing" (walking
around the room to the music with a beautiful woman/handsome man) with
just a few lessons.
(3) A good connection is much easier and comes much earlier in your
tango career with the close-embrace, because you don't have to do the
difficult pivoting ochos and really difficult turns of salon/fantasy,
which are technically challenging even to intermediate tango dancers.
(4) Oh, and a lot of people actually LIKE close-embrace tango.
Yes, there are many other factors which are important to tango
retention and skill building: teacher personality, methodology,
analytical/memorized vs intuitive/improvised, community friendliness,
great music, social scene, and others...
No, I don't mash people together the first lesson.
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 12:44:49 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Re: Why I like the milonguero style
Tom writes: "Maybe some of the teachers
> are afraid of close embrace, maybe some experienced open-embrace
> dancers find it difficult to dance close, or they are afraid to
relearn
> their concept of tango, but I know that my workshops on close-embrace
> tango in the Midwest were very well received...
In my experience, Tom is right on. I usually offer students the choice
to start with a practice hold and some space between them, but
invariably they are trying close embrace right away. I don't
discourage them, and am always impressed with their success. I think
some teachers do discourage this. They tend to send the message
that "TANGO IS VERY HARD. YOU MUST LEARN THIS WAY" Perhaps some
teachers don't have enough belief and trust in their students. They
think tango is so hard that they have to teach it wrong for several
weeks or months. What good is this? It just teaches bad habits that
must be unlearned, which puts the learning process back sometimes
years. Plus, you can't dance socially because of the pain you're
inflicting on your partner, (unless she took the same class as you!)
Sorry for this rant. I danced last night with a gentleman who I know
to be a good dancer with other dances. When I closed the embrace he
pushed me away saying that he hadn't gotten that far in his lessons
yet. He must have had his first tango lessons learning the "walk walk,
ocho ocho" pattern. This is one of the hardest moves in tango, and I
don't understand why teachers teach it to beginners. Beginners usually
use their fingertips to dig into my back to lead it. If only he would
have learned to just walk! (His cruzadas have much promise, though.)
Lois Donnay
Minneapolis
www.mndance.com
Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 18:52:40 +0000
From: Oleh Kovalchuke <oleh_k@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Why I like the milonguero style
Hear, hear.
The purported fear of close embrace in newcomers to tango is nothing but
projection of instructor s phobias. If instructor explains the reasons for
closeness (connection, communication) and works with students to improve
those no one expresses any hesitation about being too close to a partner.
At least not in my experience.
Cheers, Oleh K.
https://TangoSpring.com
>From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
>Reply-To: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@TANGO.ORG>
>To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Why I like the milonguero style
>Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 11:12:29 -0600
>
>On Apr 15, 2004, at 9:23 AM, Jennifer Bratt wrote:
>
>>I would like to say that the idea that Americans aren't accustomed to
>>physical closeness, or don't like it, or are frightened by it, is
>>completely
>>untrue. I teach tango here in the USA to all levels, beginner through
>>advanced, and the only embrace I ever show is a close one - a warm and
>>cozy
>>hug - 'milonguero' if you will. And never, EVER in the hundreds of
>>classes
>>I've taught has anyone balked at this, or refused to put their chest
>>against
>>their partner, or made a disgusted face, or was afraid of getting
>>cooties.
>>In fact, surprise, the Americans seem to like it!!
>
>
>As I said before, I am more in agreement with Jennifer than with Janis.
>
>
>Fear of close embrace:
>
>I keep hearing from Janis Kenyon and others that people in the US, the
>Midwest in particular, are more afraid of physical contact than on
>either coast. I hear from some Midwestern instructors or organizers
>that they can't present close-embrace because it would scare people
>away from tango. I also hear that close-embrace is a "more advanced"
>form of tango.
>
>In the past year or so, I've taught six times in several cities of the
>Midwest, and I can say categorically that EVEN in the Midwest, people
>like to dance tango in the close-embrace. Maybe some of the teachers
>are afraid of close embrace, maybe some experienced open-embrace
>dancers find it difficult to dance close, or they are afraid to relearn
>their concept of tango, but I know that my workshops on close-embrace
>tango in the Midwest were very well received... In 2003 I taught
>classes of 80-110 in Ann Arbor, MI; this year, Brigitta Winkler and I
>split the classes because the attendance went even higher), in March I
>taught classes of 50-80 in St Louis.
>
>I think the attendance was high PRECISELY BECAUSE they were promoted as
>"Social-Style Tango in the Close-Embrace"!
>
>
>Filtering process in tango:
>
>Tango isn't for EVERYONE. It is a passionate avocation for CERTAIN
>people.
>
>There is a filtering (in AND out) as newcomers arrive to Tango and
>succeed or quit. Depending on a number of factors you have a drop-out
>rate of 50-99%. People who like tango are most attracted to it, and are
>more likely to stay BECAUSE tango is a close dance.
>
>Yes, SOME people don't like to be too close to others, but that kind of
>person even finds open-embrace tango too close for comfort. If you
>cater to the fears of people who are going to drop-out anyway, you
>forget to cater to the pleasures of those who came to tango for the
>connection, romance and closeness.
>
>Students are very perceptive in sensing the teacher's anxiety, so I
>think that teachers who are afraid to present close embrace, or
>apologize for it, or say "you don't have to dance close if you don't
>want to", actually CAUSE the fearful response.
>
>
>Higher Retention with close-embrace:
>
>I would say that teaching close-embrace to beginners has a higher
>retention than teaching open embrace for three reasons:
>
>(1) More people come to tango because of images of romance, sensuality
>and connection, than out of an analytical mindset, athleticism, or a
>desire to be on stage (especially men!).
>
>(2) Close-embrace is easier at first because the basic vocabulary is
>somewhat simpler, and most people can be "up and dancing" (walking
>around the room to the music with a beautiful woman/handsome man) with
>just a few lessons.
>
>(3) A good connection is much easier and comes much earlier in your
>tango career with the close-embrace, because you don't have to do the
>difficult pivoting ochos and really difficult turns of salon/fantasy,
>which are technically challenging even to intermediate tango dancers.
>
>(4) Oh, and a lot of people actually LIKE close-embrace tango.
>
>
>Yes, there are many other factors which are important to tango
>retention and skill building: teacher personality, methodology,
>analytical/memorized vs intuitive/improvised, community friendliness,
>great music, social scene, and others...
>
>No, I don't mash people together the first lesson.
