1152 Why Students Stop Dancing: A Theory
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:18:35 -0700
From: luda_r1 <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Why Students Stop Dancing: A Theory
Hola Listeros,
That's the title of an article that appeared in the
February issue of the New York tango magazine "Tango".
Talks about the technique vs. fancy steps controversy.
The author claims a lot of people quit out of
frustration over not having learned the basics when
they should have.
If you can't find the article, write to me privately
if you want me to give you the gist of the piece.
Luda
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 17:59:44 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Why Students Stop Dancing: A Theory
>That's the title of an article that appeared in the February
>issue of the New York tango magazine "Tango".
>Talks about the technique vs. fancy steps controversy.
>The author claims a lot of people quit out of
>frustration over not having learned the basics when
>they should have.
It's pretty difficult to discuss an article that I have not read, but I
will comment on the observation that people quit out of frustration
because they have not learned the basics when they should have. It is an
interesting idea, but it may be of limited value if most people quit
before they have even progressed to the point where it is reasonable to
expect that they learned the basics.
UNLESS The people who drop out at the beginner stage will drop out
whether or not the instructor teaches basics, and those who fail to learn
the basics in their beginner classes will drop out later because they have
not learned the basics. THEN, instructors reiterates the point that
instructors should emphasize the basics in their beginner classes. But, I
find it hard to imagine, however, that a significant number of instructors
teach something other than what they consider the basics to their
beginning students. In fact, my own observation is that the students
themselves frequently seem to pursue advanced training without having
mastered the basics. Those who stick with tango realize the value of
mastering the basics and seek out such instruction.
To me that suggests the idea of offering classes in basic technique for
intermediate and advanced dancers.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 18:30:03 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Why Students Stop Dancing: A Theory
Greetings all,
Steve wrote:
> To me that suggests the idea of offering classes in basic technique for
> intermediate and advanced dancers.
It is such a conundrum! What ARE the basics???? IMHO, most beginners -
certainly not all - are unable to even perceive the basics and wouldn't want
to study them if they could understand them. They're more worried about
structure and vocabulary. It takes some time to realize that all of the
'understanding' of the dance's forms is worthless if one can't make a
beautiful step. People will pay to learn only what they think they need to
learn unless you-the-teacher can have a dramatic and visible impact with
something else. I agree with Steve, we mostly learn the dance 'backwards'.
In terms of retaining students, though, I don't think it's any worse than
learning the dance 'from the basics'. The basics are mostly studied by
advanced students, in which classes a beginner really can not keep up.
Clearly, a combined approach of technique and structure is best. But don't
forget that every student is different. One can soften the frustration of
the hard stuff with the fun of easy concepts. But I think that the best
thing we can do to retain students is simply to be nice to them.
Cheers,
Frank - Mpls.
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 19:02:17 -0500
From: Bibi Wong <bibibwong@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Why Students Stop Dancing: A Theory
Mr. Brown
>In fact, my own observation is that the students
themselves frequently seem to pursue advanced training without having
mastered the basics. Those who stick with tango realize the value of
mastering the basics and seek out such instruction.
I agree.
Some people are fascinated by the "face value" of the dance. Performing
fancy variations, much like having a dog as a pet, tend to offer instant
gratifications. If this value system remains during the dancing life of the
students, the snow ball effect is what Stephen described.
>To me that suggests the idea of offering classes in basic technique for
intermediate and advanced dancers.
I am not sure if it is the personality, or the individual's background
training, or what, that motivates a student to explore the needs of
mastering the basics. Because as much as the teacher emphasizes the basics,
if the value system is not the same with the students, the students
eventually may find that teacher "boring"; they will leave and look for
another teacher that will provide instant gratifications from more fancy
moves.
I recently read some articles talking about how the current dancers should
give advices to the newbies how to look for teachers and what style of tango
is to be learned. But I wonder, in real life, are we used to exploring
lives on our own; don't we learn from our own mistakes? Why so much
coaching and mothering is expected for dancing tango?
BB
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 20:21:46 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Why Students Stop Dancing: A Theory
See also: https://www.westcoastswingamerica.com/
Use menu for articles, then scroll half way down to Mark Van
Shuyver's first article
Different dance; some good ideas.
>That's the title of an article that appeared in the
>February issue of the New York tango magazine "Tango".
>Talks about the technique vs. fancy steps controversy.
>The author claims a lot of people quit out of
>frustration over not having learned the basics when
>they should have.
>
>If you can't find the article, write to me privately
>if you want me to give you the gist of the piece.
>
>Luda
--
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-388-2560
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 20:46:57 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Why Students Stop Dancing: A Theory
>Greetings all,
>
>Steve wrote:
>
>> To me that suggests the idea of offering classes in basic technique for
>> intermediate and advanced dancers.
>
>It is such a conundrum! What ARE the basics???? IMHO, most beginners -
>certainly not all - are unable to even perceive the basics and wouldn't want
>to study them if they could understand them. They're more worried about
>structure and vocabulary. It takes some time to realize that all of the
>'understanding' of the dance's forms is worthless if one can't make a
>beautiful step. People will pay to learn only what they think they need to
>...Cheers,
>
>Frank - Mpls.
Surely Steve is correct in imagining all teachers start with what
"they" consider the basics...otherwise, what are they
doing?...starting with advanced material. The surest way to kill a
class is to start obsessing about the walk, and correct foot
placement.
Di Sarli on the slow beat! Ugggh, why would they come back!
But what are the basics?
For me:
(1) Rhythm & Music
(2) Connecting to your partner & Lead-Follow skills
(3) Connecting to yourself internally, posture & balance
(4) Navigating the line of dance without colliding.
(5) A few steps typical of tango.
I'm not at all a fan of the traditional 8CB which doesn't really
teach 1, 2, 3 or 4, although maybe it does teach 5. Frankly, by the
time they've learned lead-follow for 2 or 3 weeks, the 8CB is way too
easy for them, and just gets in the way for learning more things.
In any case, I find people are get extremely excited when they
discover they can hear the beat of milonga, D'Arienzo and Waltz
(which is quite easy to do in the first few classes).
They also get excited about the connection and Lead-Follow...just
moving together with a pretty lady or handsome guy is really awesome.
("Wait till I tell the guys back at the office I'm dancing tango!").
Not on the list but also very exciting for newcomers is the cultural
context, the codes of the social dance floor in Buenos Aires, the
history of tango...etc.
Most really like the close embrace of tango, aside from a very few
people who are really disturbed by it. I think the latter group has
difficulty with the closeness of the "open-embrace" as well.
--
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-388-2560
Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 23:48:33 -0400
From: manuel <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Why Students Stop Dancing: A Theory
My observation has been that people are all different. As such they have all
kinds of likes dislikes and motivations for learning tango and for sticking
with it. There are some who are not happy with learning basics and generally
want to be taught all kinds of figures which then they proceed to inflict on
each other and innocent bystanders ;) It's not fair however, to say or think
that they are all like that. I teach my beginners how to connect with their
partner, how to move to the music and some basic points in leading and
following. Somne catch on pretty fast and others take longer. It does not
seem to matter how "natural" they are as far as whether they'll stay with it
or not. I guess if they are particularly promising students, the teachers
tend to dote on them and give them lots of positive feedback and lots of
attention. That might account for some staying longer. But I've seen those
who struggle for every thing that they learn and yet they stick around and
really try. I admire that, I like to see people become "taken" by the tango
so they really want to learn. Every student that I've taught, who really
tried, has learned to dance tango.
Basically I think that folks who become interested in the music and dance
will stay almost no matter what. Those who lose interest quickly are very
difficult to retain. The serious part is to try to make sure that people are
not "turned off" by negative experiences in the classes. It's particularly
important that the teacher(s) make every effort to insure that the students
do not get their negative experience from the teacher or from the way the
class is conducted, where it's held, etc. Outside of that, there is not much
more that one can do. Either somebody likes the tango and the tango scene
well enough to keep coming back, or they do not. IMHO that's about it.....
Regards,
Manuel
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 13:29:46 GMT
From: michael <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Why Students Stop Dancing: A Theory
Why do students drop out? Here are my theories.
Quality of Instruction
You don't need a license to teach. Some people seem to follow the maxim "Learn today, teach tomorrow."
Ability to accept feedback
Some people are convinced it's ALWAYS the other person's fault and never examine their role in the mistake. It takes two to
tango and two to screw up. From what I see and hear, a lot
of men teach their partner how to dance the figure they
can't lead. And the worst part, the woman is convinced
SHE CAN'T FOLLOW when the truth is THE MAN CAN'T LEAD the
figure in question. I've stopped counting the number of
times I worked on a figure with my teacher and "got it to work"
but when I went to a milonga it "didn't work." Why? I
forgot something. Last night I tried to sweep a woman's foot
during her back ocho with my right foot. It didn't work.
Her fault? NO!! I didn't turn my hips to the right so I didn't
pivot on my left foot to the right. Is it no wonder the
figure "ended too soon?" Fortunately, I was able to figure
out what I did wrong. (Fortunately, the figure is still
under warranty and I can take it back to the "factory" for repair.)
My teacher, who is a DJ at a milonga, told me that women
would come up to him and complain vociferously about
the lousy dancing of their last partner and expect him to
do something about it. He told them "If you don't like
dancing with them, DON'T dance with him." If men continue
to think they are great leaders when they are not, they have NO motivation to get better.
Great Expectations
No, not the book. Tango is difficult to master. It takes
many months to dance tango - POORLY! Nancy Stevens, in her PBS documentary "I'm Taking Tango Lessons" said she is a former
dancer "in another life" and thought she could pick up
tango quickly. She admitted she was wrong.
Lousy treatment at milongas
If beginners are never asked, they will NEVER get good. It's depressing to sit at a table the whole night thinking "OOH! I
wish I could do that." "DAMN! I wish somebody would dance
with me." Some dancers forget they were once beginners. I'm
will always be grateful to the women who danced with me when
is started. For the first six months, I stepped on their feet.
Next six months stepped on my feet. Next six months, stepped
on the feet of the woman behind me. I remember one woman
who told me "That's OK. I have 9 other toes."
Frank asked "What are the basics???" IMHO, the basics are
axis, frame, posture, and balance. Good technique will open
the door to any figure.
That's enough for now.
Michael
Washington, DC
I'd rather be dancing argentine tango
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 09:46:00 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: Why Students Stop Dancing: A Theory
Tom Stermitz wrote:
>[W]hat are the basics?
>For me:
>(1) Rhythm & Music
>(2) Connecting to your partner & Lead-Follow skills
>(3) Connecting to yourself internally, posture & balance
>(4) Navigating the line of dance without colliding.
>(5) A few steps typical of tango.
In order to keep the students and teach them the basics, an instructor
must meet the students expectations of what it means to learn a dance. I
would argue that meeting the students' expectations means teaching
movement (steps). I am not sure that Tom intended a rank ordering of his
five points, but I consider it completely possible and better to teach the
important skills of rhythm and music, connecting to oneself internally,
connecting to one's partner, navigation and a sense of the whole of tango
within the context of tango movements. Taking such an approach integrates
important skills with the tango movements themselves.
1) Tango movement (the small elements typical of tango--no 8CB)
2) Rhythm and music
3) Connecting to oneself internally
4) Connecting to one's partner and lead-follow skills
5) Navigating the line of dance without colliding
6) Some sense of the whole of tango
Let me offer a few examples of what I mean by the small elements of tango
movement:
walking
walking to the cross
forward ocho
ocho cortado
cut steps/rock steps
side steps
back ocho
sandwiches
short pieces of turns--connecting ochos and side steps
All of these elements can be taught on the body or off the body.
For teaching beginners, I agree with Tom's sentiment of Di Sarli on the
slow beat "Ugggh."
It can be great for dancing, however.
Di Sarli instrumentals are over used for beginning classes because they
have a clear and powerful beat, but the music is actually a little too
slow for walking and requires an excrutiating amount of body control for
many beginners. D'Arienzo is a good choice, for someone teaching
milonguero-style from the beginning. For someone teaching styles that do
not emphasize quick movement, early Canaro and the more rhythmic Calo
(Calo with Podesta) are good choices. This music also has a clear rhythm
and its tempo is much closer to normal walking speeds.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 17:19:58 +0200
From: Fernando Lagrana <fernando.lagrana@ITU.INT>
Subject: Why Students Stop Dancing: A Theory
Hello,
I just went through Michael's comment and decided all of sudden to join the
tread. Why ? Mmm, don't know precisely. But, maybe because of the title of
the thread, in particular this kind of perceived antinomy between the
concepts of "student" and "dancing".
Most of us have been used to the fact that being a student is a comfortable
situation : you are protected by the fact that it is agreed that you may
fail e.g. make errors that you will be soon able to understand those errors
and "get it right".
On the other hand, you dance. I mean that YOU dance. Once you invite or are
invited to dance, you are no longer a student, you are a dancer, you are a
being having a (new) life experience. You share an axis, you communicate
without words, you expose yourself, your self. This is much more frightening
than a course.
So I would like to expand on Michael's comments :
- Quality of instruction : well, yes. I would say, ability to create a
secure framework for students so that they can empirically progress at they
own pace, with self-confidence and support from the whole community.
- Ability to accept feedback : well, maybe you should expand on this,
Michael. Is it that important to miss a step? Is the communication with the
partner, the common breathing really linked to the technical ability to do a
specific step? Well, suppose a male leader leads poorly complicated figures.
Has he been told, convinced (confidence again) that the partners he invited
may have a great time with easier steps properly lead... and good
communication between the two dancers ? Breathe, feel, breathe again, listen
to the music, rectify the abrazo to make it more comfortable, breathe again,
check everything is OK, close your eyes a second or two, listen to your
partner. No you may perhaps walk your first step...
- Great expectations : tango is not difficult, living is difficult and tango
happens to be one of the closest expressions of "real" life. Why do we have
great expectations ? Because we believe that becoming "great dancers" will,
in a sense, help us enjoy great life experiences during those famous three
minutes... As a result, many "students" believe that, since they are "poor
dancers", they just can expect "poor experiences" with other "poor fellows"
like them.
So, to the question : "what are the basics ?", I'd rather leave aside the
"mechanics" such as axis, frame, balance, posture and say "breath,
communication, abrazo, feeling... give yourself a break, just be yourself,
we love you when you don't dance, we'll love when you dance with us".
Fernando Lagraña
www.almatango.com
mailto:fernando@almatango.com
+41 79 209 35 24
almaTango
L'âme du tango argentin...
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 09:31:18 -0700
From: luda_r1 <luda_r1@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Why Students Stop Dancing: A Theory
Steve wrote:
"It's pretty difficult to discuss an article that I
have not read,..."
But it's more fun that way.
"In fact, my own observation is
that the students
themselves frequently seem to pursue advanced training
without having
mastered the basics. Those who stick with tango
realize the value of
mastering the basics and seek out such instruction."
That's precisely the point the article is making. I'll
post it on the cooperative website so anybody who
wants to can read it. I've received several requests
for more details.
"To me that suggests the idea of offering classes in
basic technique for
intermediate and advanced dancers."
The better teachers do.
Luda
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 15:30:24 -0700
From: a tango newbie <tangaux02@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Why Students Stop Dancing: A Theory
I wonder how much having (or not having) a regular
practice partner influences the choice to continue
dancing. I know it almost sidelined me.
I started tango without a partner, and in the
beginning, this was not a problem. Indeed, beginner
classes--mine, anyway--make a point of stressing that
one doesn't need to bring a partner. It's not a
problem for me in terms of progress; I can still work
alone on my ochos, balance, pivoting, and (always) the
walk.
But I have to admit that there are some elements that
can't be practiced alone, such as how to maintain some
constant resistance in the frame. And when we learn
more complicated figures, well...it seems that some of
them are almost impossible to practice alone. I
remember being discouraged when I read in a tango
magazine a comment by a visiting instructor: "It is
impossible to dance well without depending on the
partner." I don't know if this is learned through
at-home practice, or "practice" at a milonga. (Maybe
I'm alone on this, but milongas are practices of a
sort--we practice learning to dance with other
people.)
Most of the time I can find a tango friend to practice
with. But it doesn't happen too regularly, usually
because they live too far away for it to be feasible.
Basically, it seemed to me that those with partners
improved faster than those without, in general. I
felt there was only so much I could do practicing
alone. Even though I knew I was making some progress,
I didn't feel like it was as much as it could have
been with a partner. Thus, I didn't feel there was
much incentive to continue, and almost quit. Almost.
I love the dance too much to throw it all away. :)
Anyway, that's my rambling 2 cents. I wonder if
anyone had any similar experiences?
Thanks,
ATN
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 18:49:19 -0700
From: Rick FromPdx <bugs1959bunny@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Why Students Stop Dancing: A Theory
I wonder how much cross over there is, from other dance communites? These people generally already know how to dance & how to learn dances, etc, the enjoyment of being part of a community, love of dancing & so on. I've seen lots of people I know from Swing, Contra/Folk, Ballroom, Cajun, take a swing at Tango & wind up bailing out for one reason or the other. I know Steve in TX did some follow up on folks who bailed (although perhaps they weren't already dancers). Lois in Mpls is like me, in that she dances a lot! All different kinds, which is so cool to visit there (esp. in Spring/Summer?). I'll have to ask them why they gave up Tango. There's enough interesting, non-snooty, down-to-earth folks that Tango & enough good, high-fidelity music late at night to keep me coming back. I'll post more about music I use when I teach people 1 on 1. None of it is older than about 10 years old & it all has the sound quality of Color Tango.
R
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 06:42:31 -0700
From: Carlos Lima <amilsolrac@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Why Students Stop Dancing: A Theory
Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG> wrote under this caption ...
> For teaching beginners, I agree with Tom's sentiment of Di Sarli on the
slow beat "Ugggh." It can be great for dancing, however. <
I think the more important thing about music in elementary class (and
elsewhere) is that it be exciting, movingly beautiful, no B tangos, no
monotony. This is about students not quitting, right? Being hooked on tango
is probably, more than anything else, about being hooked on the music, on the
ability of the music to move us physically and emotionally, to inspire a
physical and emotional embrace, to connect the two that it takes to tango.
Say, DiSarli's "Bahia Blanca" in his own interpretation.
The more lyrical or dramatic music is, paradoxically, more accessible to new
comers. It takes more "refinement" and exposure to go to tango heaven with
D'Agostino or the better Biagi, than with Pugliese or DiSarli. That is what I
feel anyway.
As to pace and pulse definition, variety is better, in my estimation, than
any theoretically ideal choice.
Pulse definition. It is good to experience easier and not so easy (within
reason) from the start. At first, a number of people have trouble staying
with the pulse, however prominent, because of limitations of physical (large
muscle) co-ordination. Everyone, for all intents, can find the pulse of all
but the most difficult tangos for dancing. This is an area that I believe is
often misunderstood.
Slow or up tempo? Variety again is best, but I believe it is better to err on
the side of keeping it slow (with exciting music, remember). Yes, slow is
difficult in some senses, but "good" difficult: it challenges in the right
way. Fast is difficult in other ways, mostly "bad" difficult: it impedes good
practice. If people are doing anything other than plain forward walking, and
one hopes they will do so within the very first hour, the worst thing one can
do is to rush them. The result is bad and worsening form, the (very
un-rioplatense) habit of rushing to catch a train, you name it.
As to working on the walk, one can get there by degrees, yes; but the main
idea of the tango forward walk, in my book, is "slo-moing" the natural walk
(with a small number of other slight adjustments) to a degree that would
normally cause the dancer to go into a "clumping" mode. Any normal tango
dancing music will be OK to work on this, but the student needs to develop
that catty feeling at 30 measures per minute and less. The back walk is
learnt more like a move, since it is not natural (though intimately related
to the forward walk). I do not think it is not possible to learn the back
walk properly while running after the music.
Having said all this, let me suggest that the sense of faster and slower in
tangos is to a large degree a delusion. A performance more marcato seems
faster, a more flowing or legato performance seems slower. The great majority
of tangos does not stray very far from the 30 mpm pace, i.e., one slow step
per second.
Cheers,
PS - I cannot understand any tango dancer saying "uggh" to ANY DiSarli. But
what do I know.
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 11:54:24 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Why Students Stop Dancing: A Theory
Carlos Lima wrote:
>Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG> wrote under this caption ...
>
>> For teaching beginners, I agree with Tom's sentiment of Di Sarli on the
>slow beat "Ugggh." It can be great for dancing, however. <
...
>As to working on the walk, one can get there by degrees, yes; but the main
>idea of the tango forward walk, in my book, is "slo-moing" the natural walk
>(with a small number of other slight adjustments) to a degree that would
>normally cause the dancer to go into a "clumping" mode. Any normal tango
>dancing music will be OK to work on this, but the student needs to develop
>that catty feeling at 30 measures per minute and less. The back walk is
>learnt more like a move, since it is not natural (though intimately related
>to the forward walk). I do not think it is not possible to learn the back
>walk properly while running after the music.
>...
>PS - I cannot understand any tango dancer saying "uggh" to ANY DiSarli. But
>what do I know.
There are tango dancers (even DJs) who hate Di Sarli, but I am not
one of them. I absolutely agree with you that Di Sarli produced a lot
of truly great music, which is spectacular for dancing, so full of
space, density and emotion...
But Di Sarli is very problematic for teaching beginner guys. That is
the cause of my complaint.
>Slow or up tempo? Variety again is best, but I believe it is better to err on
>the side of keeping it slow (with exciting music, remember). Yes, slow is
>difficult in some senses, but "good" difficult: it challenges in the right
>way. Fast is difficult in other ways, mostly "bad" difficult: it impedes good
>practice. If people are doing anything other than plain forward walking, and
>one hopes they will do so within the very first hour, the worst thing one can
>do is to rush them. The result is bad and worsening form, the (very
>un-rioplatense) habit of rushing to catch a train, you name it.
I know what you mean about people rushing around "doing" things. On
the opposite end are the slow, plodding dancers, with no passion or
drive. Variety, Dynamics and Musicality are missing on both ends.
Musicality is about beat, half-beat, phrasing, dynamics, contrast,
repetition/variety, improvisation, energy, etc.
These are the most important things that need to be taught at the first.
The slow, flowing, cat-like motion of tango is ONE important quality,
but if that is the main focus at the beginning, the guys tend to
learn a dull, slow tango without much drive and contrast. It is no
wonder they rush off to learn fancy vocabulary out of sheer boredom!
Beginners have a hard time enough time hearing the beat of tango, and
many teachers choose Di Sarli for its clear, walking beat. The
problem is the half-beat in most Di Sarli is very weak. Doing too
many slow walking exercises encourages leaders to stay in the
analytical head-space, and leads to neutral, blah, un-energized
movements.
Energy, confidence and conviction are about bringing the beat and
dynamic energy of tango into your muscle-memory and going intuitive
on dancing, which is better served by teaching the men to hear and
feel the beat, half-beat and phrasing, not just walking on the
slow-beat.
Beginner guys have far better success at this if they learn using
Milongas, D'Arienzo (1930s), and Waltzes. The faster milonga pulls
them right on top of the beat, the staccato D'Arienzo helps the find
the half-time beat, and almost everyone can hear the 4+4=8 count
phrasing of waltzes.
As you say, variety is important...we should throw a little Di Sarli
into the mix.
--
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-388-2560
Date: Thu, 10 Apr 2003 18:36:25 -0800
From: Dan Boccia <redfox@ALASKA.NET>
Subject: Re: Why Students Stop Dancing: A Theory
This thread typically repels me because there is a lot of ignorance and
misrepresentation that typically comes with it concerning MUSIC that I
find is very misleading to new dancers and shows how some people have
difficulty getting out of their boxes. The major pet peave that
consistently surfaces in these discussions regards Di Sarli, my favorite
orchestra.
First off, in general, I see no need to play music in a class that is
not typically played in milongas. If it's slow and boring or otherwise
of little value to a milonga, it is a particularly poor choice for a
lesson. Students need to hear the music that comes with the dance,
period. So we go with the obvious: The greats like D'Arienzo, Tanturi,
Troilo, Di Sarli, 40's Pugliese, Rodriguez, etc.
Now, let's get out of the box: I get SO tired of hearing Di Sarli
spoken of in the context of his 50's instrumentals as if these were the
only recordings he ever waxed. We keep reading from dancers, teachers
and DJs about how "slow" Di Sarli is. Let us all step into the light
and realize that Di Sarli left remarkable recordings from 1928 - 1931
and from 1939 - 1958. A major portion of his recordings were most
definitely not "slow", and these are the recordings that are more
prevalent in milongas all over the US that I've attended - often I'll
hear 3 sets of Di Sarli from different periods and with different
singers (especially Rufino) or his early instrumentals. In fact, his
recordings from 1928 - 1931 (like Chau Pinela, Que Dios Te Perdone) and
especially 1939 - about 1942 (like Shusheta, El Retirao, Corazon) are
decidedly rhythmic, some of them wickedly so. The songs from 39 - mid
40's are heard frequently in the (good) milongas and I play them in my
lessons with excellent results.
I also play the 50's instrumentals in lessons when I'm working on a
specific movement quality or want something a bit "big" to work with,
even for relatively new dancers - nothing wrong with it at all - but a
whole hour of the same sound.....???? - that's where the problem comes
in. Variety of orchestras makes the lesson more interesting and
energetic for everyone, ESPECIALLY new dancers.
Let's step out of the box a bit and not make such blanket statements
like "Di Sarli = slow".
And by the way, quite a bit of Di Sarli's recordings are of a quicker
tempo than quite a bit of D'Arienzo's recordings, so be careful of that
ignorant cliché as well !!! I actually use D'Arienzo from the 30's a
lot in lessons BECAUSE it is played at a very nice tempo and thus is
easy to dance to.
Another side benefit of playing the music that is played in the milongas
and emphasizing it often in the classes is this: with increasing
frequency, my friends here in Anchorage, many whom have only danced a
few months, are coming up to me thanking me for playing D'Agostino,
Biagi, Troilo, Lomuto, etc. Familiarity with the music makes the dance
more interesting.
Dan Boccia
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 13:00:16 -0400
From: Alan McPherron <mcph+@PITT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Why Students Stop Dancing: A Theory
On Thu, 10 Apr 2003, Tom Stermitz wrote:
> [snip] Beginner guys have far better success at this
> if they learn using Milongas... and Waltzes.
> ...Almost everyone can hear the
> 4+4=8 count phrasing of waltzes.
Eh? Waltz and vals is in 3/4 time--three beats to the measure, not 4--
?verdad?
Alan McPherron, Tangueros-Unidos
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 12:16:23 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <Stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Why Students Stop Dancing: A Theory
>On Thu, 10 Apr 2003, Tom Stermitz wrote:
>
>> [snip] Beginner guys have far better success at this
>> if they learn using Milongas... and Waltzes.
>> ...Almost everyone can hear the
>> 4+4=8 count phrasing of waltzes.
>
>Eh? Waltz and vals is in 3/4 time--three beats to the measure, not 4--
>?verdad?
>
>Alan McPherron, Tangueros-Unidos
We don't step on every 1-2-3 beat of tango waltz, the walking beat is
the first count of each measure.
The time SIGNATURE of waltz is in 3/4 or perhaps 6/8, but the
heartbeat (the "slow" steps) are on the strong, first beat of each
measure, which we might call 1 of 3, or 1/3. In waltz we have the 2/3
or 3/3 beat for doing rock-steps or other "quick-steps" for rhythmic
interest.
Most tangos and most tango-waltz PHRASES are made of 4+4=8 COUNTS
(each count is a walking step, which might be a measure, half measure
or 1/4 measure depending on the actual time signature. (Dancers are a
bit sloppy with musical notation...drives musicians crazy!)
So, to express the phrasing of tango or waltz, you need to feel (or
count out) the 4 step half-phrases. Tango music has a very strong
sense of impact or drive on the first step of a half-phrase, and the
sense of a pause, (a comma or a period?) on the last step of each
half-phrase.
The build up of TENSION or OOMPH prior to the first beat of a phrase
is the single most obvious thing that says we're doing TANGO, not
Foxtrot or something, just as swing music "SWINGS" due to having
rhythmic energy off the square beat.
We can express this tension visually or through the connection with
our partner...perhaps in other ways?
8CB
The 8CB has 8 counts for the obvious reason that stage dancers want a
structure to express the phrasing of the music (in addition to
planning their figures). It is somewhat odd to me that step "1" of
the basic is usually a back step, because the most dramatic step in
Tango is normally the one to the left, out into the dance...that's
why they call it the SALIDA. Likewise, the resolution seems to me
something final, at the end of the dance, not just at every phrase
ending.
But then, I'm a social dancer. Maybe one of the stage dancers can
explain why step "1" of the 8CB is backwards...do you really wish to
express a BIG dramatic energy going backwards on the strong beat of a
phrase?
March-like Tango
If we don't express the phrasing with our movements, then tango
becomes too march-like, which is my complaint about all the slow,
smooth walking to 1950s Di Sarli in beginner classes. (Right Dan).
People do so much slow, smooth walking that their dancing has no
dynamic range, no expression of the phrases...even though Di Sarli
has in fact a lot of dynamics in it phrases.
Rhythmic Decorations.
The interesting thing about the half-beats (or 1/3 & 2/3 beats in
waltz), is that they need not be expressed by actual foot-steps. The
boleo is often a strong rebounding energy expressed at the half beat.
And of course we have all those really cool decorations, like a
toe-tap or foot-touch or thigh-brush or tummy-wiggle, or hip-sway
which can also be half-time expressions.
Missing drums of tango
D'Arienzo feels strongly staccato because he emphasizes the half-beat.
1950s Di Sarli sounds dense, flowing, spacious because there is very
little emphasis of the half beat, which is fine, because as dancers
we can choose to dance with more density or impose that rhythm if we
want.
Tango dancing is really cool because we participate in making the
music...we're the missing drummers in the tango orchestra.
--
Tom Stermitz
https://www.tango.org/
stermitz@tango.org
303-388-2560
Date: Fri, 11 Apr 2003 14:11:52 -0500
From: Stephen Brown <Stephen.P.Brown@DAL.FRB.ORG>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Why Students Stop Dancing: A Theory
Tom Stermitz wrote:
>Tango dancing is really cool because we participate in making
>the music...we're the missing drummers in the tango orchestra.
This is an interesting idea worthy of more exploration. Many dancers
express the thump of the accented beat in tango, and others express the
double-time rhythms in tango, but few try to express other rhythmic
elements in the music. What if we dancers pursued and expressed some of
the more complex rhythmic elements in tango.
>8CB
>It is somewhat odd to me that step "1" of
>the basic is usually a back step, because
>the most dramatic step in Tango is normally
>the one to the left, out into the dance...that's
>why they call it the SALIDA.
I do not see the side-step as necessarily the most dramatic element in the
basic. I think the walk to the cross is more dynamic and dramatic.
If one does the cross-foot basic the step prior to the cross and the cross
are the most dramatic. The step that precedes the cross creates a
dramatic tension, which the cross resolves.
The side step is not highlighted in Tete's version of the basic either.
Man Woman
Back Forward
Side Side
Together Forward Back
Forward Back Cross
Forward Back
Side Together Side Together
>The 8CB has 8 counts for the obvious reason that stage dancers want
>a structure to express the phrasing of the music (in addition to
>planning their figures).
If we are talking about tango it is not clear at all that the 8-count
basic will be finished in 8 bars. The dancers may add pauses or throw in
double-time movements that result in a slower or quicker completion. We
also have difficulty explaining the addition of ochos or other elements
that take us out of the 8-bar phrasing.
If we are talking about vals, we can finish an 8-count step pattern in an
8-bar phrase, but what if the dancers throw in some quick steps on the 2nd
or 3rd beat, or add some other elements. Then the pattern no longer
matches up with the 8-bar phrasing.
>If we don't express the phrasing with our movements, then tango
>becomes too march-like, which is my complaint about all the slow,
>smooth walking to 1950s Di Sarli in beginner classes. (Right Dan).
>People do so much slow, smooth walking that their dancing has no
>dynamic range, no expression of the phrases...even though Di Sarli
>has in fact a lot of dynamics in it phrases.
In a way I think this line of reasoning attributes a problem to Di Sarli
that orginates with the instructor. If I were going to take the lazy
approach to playing music while teaching my beginning classes, I would
want the one CD that I could play where every piece of music can be used
for dancing by beginners. A number of Di Sarli CDs with instrumentals
from the 1950s quite readily fit the bill. Unfortunately, the subtle
dynamics of the Di Sarli 1950s rhythm is lost on many beginners, who
disconnenct from the rhythm because they cannot maintain the neccesary
body control to dance to the music and start marching around without
seeming regard to the music.
By the way, vals is not unique in having 8-bar phrases. Many pieces of
music have 8-bar phrases. Some have 12-bar phrases, and a few have 16-bar
phrases.
With best regards,
Steve
Stephen Brown
Tango Argentino de Tejas
https://www.tejastango.com/
