4448 ENDEMIC PROBLEM
Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2006 16:44:07 -0400
From: tanguerochino@netscape.net
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] ENDEMIC PROBLEM
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Tom Stermitz wrote:
I've recently noticed in several different venues, that the women
have not been living up to the skill level of the men. ....
Part of the cause could be that these women are getting dances with the
better dancers. If they are not aware of their short-comings in
dancing, they
may think that their skill is up to par, and stop learning.
Date: Tue, 4 Jul 2006 14:45:22 -0700
From: "Jonathan Thornton" <obscurebardo@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] ENDEMIC PROBLEM
<f9247e8a0607041445x3ae73eb2ka6ecae342fbd2050@mail.gmail.com>
On 7/4/06,
>
>
> Tom Stermitz wrote:
>
> I've recently noticed in several different venues, that the women
> have not been living up to the skill level of the men. ....
>
I'm musing on thoughts of how this relates to the typical approaches to
teaching group classes. I've seen a tendency for greater turn outs of men to
group classes or workshops and sometimes some of the women who come are
wanting to work on their leading. This suggest to me that possibly the man's
role is given more attention and is seen as the more important part of the
dance? I do feel that more attention could be focused on techniques, skills,
attitudes etc. for dancing the woman's part. [I've become dissatisfied with
the terms leader/follower, but think at this point yin/yang terminology
isn't appropriate so I'm using more traditional Argentine terminology]
I think there will be a wide variety of experiences some having to do with
geography so I would hope there will be less of a debate and more of a
discussion on the differences in learning the man's and woman's part of the
dance.
I would particularly like to hear from women about their experiences and
what they found most helpful and what they would like to see.
Does Tom's observation seem to fit your communities? It's a bit hard to
generalize as the cast of dancers can change from milonga to milonga. I've
not thought about this but my first impression is the distribution in my
community in skill levels between men and women is roughly the same but
there can be fluctuations any given night depending on who comes. I've no
idea how one would quantify this so this is simply a general impression.
There is also turnover. Experienced people move or for some reason there is
a drop in attendance, and perhaps groups of newer dancers bring their
friends and that results in a different level of dance? I heard from one
community that they lost a lot of experienced men and that the floor
situation became a lot more chaotic as a result of not having the effect of
leaders with better floorcraft tempering the cluelessness of intermediate
dancers.
Jonathan Thornton
--
"The tango can be debated, and we have debates over it,
but it still encloses, as does all that which is truthful, a secret."
Jorge Luis Borges
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 09:21:12 -0400
From: joanneprochaska@aol.com
Subject: [Tango-L] ENDEMIC PROBLEM
To: stermitz@tango.org, tango-L@mit.edu
So far, I am the only woman to reply on this thread.
Ladies...?
I am interested in hearing your personal experience, of why you have or have not continued to study the tango (I differentiate "studying" and "dancing").
I am interested in hearing if you consider that you have/have not reached your goal in dancing the tango, and why.
Maybe this is too personal a subject to be discussed on the list. If so, I understand.
Learning..... is there no end to it?
Joanne Pogros
Cleveland, Ohio
-----Original Message-----
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 12:35:45 -0400
From: joanneprochaska@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] ENDEMIC PROBLEM
To: atheling@verizon.net, tango-L@mit.edu
Dear Anne,
It sounds like you have observed the same thing in Boston as Astrid has in Japan. Interesting, eh?
I am still very interested in hearing your (and any other woman's) personal experience in tango growth, from your first tango experience to now.
I also observe what is happening in the tango community, because along with my husband, Tim, I teach and promote tango in Cleveland. However, I do not know the underlying reasons of what I observe unless I talk to people to see what their motives and frustrations really are.
So, please, all you ladies out there in L-List land, care to comment?
Maybe this will shed some light on what course of action individuals/teachers/promoters/organizers need to take to improve the situation.
Thanks for listening,
Joanne Pogros
Cleveland, Ohio
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 09:33:01 -0400
Subject: RE: [Tango-L] ENDEMIC PROBLEM
Check out Astrid's response. As always, she is right "on target"...
Best wishes, Anne Atheling
Cop-founder, The Tango Society of Boston
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, July 05, 2006 9:21 AM
To: stermitz@tango.org; tango-L@mit.edu
Subject: [Tango-L] ENDEMIC PROBLEM
So far, I am the only woman to reply on this thread.
Ladies...?
I am interested in hearing your personal experience, of why you have or have
not continued to study the tango (I differentiate "studying" and "dancing").
I am interested in hearing if you consider that you have/have not reached
your goal in dancing the tango, and why.
Maybe this is too personal a subject to be discussed on the list. If so, I
understand.
Learning..... is there no end to it?
Joanne Pogros
Cleveland, Ohio
-----Original Message-----
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 02:18:53 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] ENDEMIC PROBLEM
To: <joanneprochaska@aol.com>, <atheling@verizon.net>,
<tango-L@mit.edu>
> I am still very interested in hearing your (and any other woman's)
personal experience in tango growth, from your first tango experience to
now.
My God, I would have to write a book. Anyway. One Sunday in May 1999 I went
to see Forever Tango. I had seen a few tango shows before, but nothing like
this. After Gavito and the seemingly almost unconscious Marcela swooning in
his arms danced to "Evaristo Carriego" , the intermission came, and I said
to my tangoloving companion : "I don't just want to sit here and watch any
longer, I want to dance this myself." And I started leafing through the pile
of flyers I had been giving at the entrance, and among all the announcements
of coming attractions there was one flyer from a school for Argentine tango,
that had teachers from Argentina. And it said, they were looking for
students...
The next evening I went to teach a lesson at a company and when I arrived
they told me,they were too busy that night, the lesson was canceled. So I
walked out of the building, free time on my hands, and inside the subway
station I called the studio, and asked if I could come over and watch a
lesson...
The Japanese manager there told me, they had one lesson for beginners and
one for intermediates. And since only the intermediate one fit into my
schedule, I should take a few privadas and catch up. And I was given the
choice between Juan and a certain "Leon-sensei". I liked "Leon" much better,
he was much nicer and much more humane than the cold and withdrawn handsome
Juan. But I was too shy to say so, and first dutifully tried a lesson with
Juan as they had recommended. I brought over my only tacky tango collection
cd I had bought in my ignorance, and asked him, which songs I should dance
to and asked for homework. Juan showed me another step which later turned
out to be the salida, and I went home and practised, walking around my
living room. Then, next time, I announced, that I wanted to dance with
"Leon". After one lesson I was hooked. This man made me feel a kind of
happiness I had rarely experienced before. I had done plenty of dancing, but
always by myself, and in my own style, in discocs, clubs, moonlight
parties...and had for years dreamed of being to able to do this together
with a man, but noone would ever really fit his body to mine, and join me in
my sexy movements without selfconsciousness.
"Leon" however, was perfect in the way he moved. He spent and hours and
hours teaching me how to walk, how to ocho, circled the room with me making
me walk with him, inside and outside, and taught me that after I crossed my
feet, any step might follow,maybe an ocho, maybe something else. To tracks
of crummy, scratchy old music played at low volume, so the thinwalled
neighbourhood would not complain. I loved him with a silent gratitude I did
not experience in any other relationships which were much less platonic than
this one..... I kept bringing my "Tango"-movie soundtrack in my handbag but
was always too shy to suggest he play it.
One day he started teaching me the giro, and told me to watch his chest, and
follow the direction it moved. He had a beautiful chest, muscular, wide and
inviting, trained from four years of Kung Fu.
One day he tired of the clumsy way I pivoted, and he looked around the
studio searchingly, picked up an md-case, and squeezed it between my heels,
and told me not to drop it, when I pivoted in all four directions, looking
at the four walls of the room,initiating the movement with my torso.
Every time I reached a plateau, he pushed me really hard, and sometimes I
walked down the road crying after the lesson, so frustrated was I with
myself. But I trusted him, and always broke through yet another wall soon
after that.
After six months he told me he, his one year contract was almost over and he
would go back to BsAs. After my last privada with him, I ran into the
toilet, turned the key in the lock and broke down in tears. Who would teach
me now? He had created a world between us, he had given me the most
beautiful gift. He had made me into a dancer, something I had always wanted
to be, since I was sixteen...
They called him Leon, because that was the easiest to pronouce. His real
name was actually Ezeqiel Farfaro de Leon.
I have never seen him again, except in movies with Milena Plebs who chose
him as her new partner when he came back to Argentina.
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 14:51:10 EDT
From: sherpal1@aol.com
Subject: [Tango-L] endemic
To: TANGO-L@mit.edu
I have studied tango since 98 with Timmy tango and have taken many workshops
as well as a dozen trips to BA. I am constantly learning and discovering new
keys to improve my follow, interpret the dance, etc. What is ultimately quite
galling is women who study for 6 months, then decide they know enough and
stop studying meanwhile dancing with the men in the community who actually are
improving but who get corrupted by the follows who dance with all sorts of bad
habits for which the leads have to compensate, which prevents the leads from
having a continuous advancing growth curve. I find that the reason many men
stall out is because they dance with newer women for the joy of intrigue, not
realizing that their own abilities become compromised. In general: women who do
not keep up their tango studies can ultimately drag down a community. Sherrie
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 20:35 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] endemic
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Sherrie wrote:
> What is ultimately quite galling is women who study for 6 months, then
> decide they know enough and stop studying meanwhile dancing with the men
> women who do not keep up their tango studies can ultimately drag down a
> community.
Actually, it is the women who do keep up their tango studies who drag down
the community. Women who are so hung-up on men preferring less-studied
girls that they've not stopped to think what it is about themselves that
has made them into less desirable partners.
Meanwhile as Andy said, they continue to do every possible class and
teacher in town. Never noticing that this is not the solution to their
problem, but the cause.
Tragic.
Chris
Date: Wed, 05 Jul 2006 08:09:07 -1200
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Endemic Problem, Epidemic Problem; Whatever
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Cc: tangomaniac@cavtel.net
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 17:50:03 EDT
From: sherpal1@aol.com
Subject: [Tango-L] endemic
To: tango-l@mit.edu
chris wrote:
Actually, it is the women who do keep up their tango studies who drag down
the community. Women who are so hung-up on men preferring less-studied
girls that they've not stopped to think what it is about themselves that
has made them into less desirable partners.
Meanwhile as Andy said, they continue to do every possible class and
teacher in town. Never noticing that this is not the solution to their
problem, but the cause.
Tragic.
Chris
This postulate is so counter-intuitive and generalized a remark that it is
not valid--do you really think that people who study more drag a community
down....do you think all people who study more and dance less is attributable to
the fact that they study more and that they probably have a personality problem?
I find that usually people who are underskilled usually never want to be
judged by those who have more skills and accuse the better dancer of bitterness
or other personality problems because they wish to be acknowledged, through
dancing more not less, of their ability and skill. What I have learned is that
people come to tango, any dance form, with lots of different agendas....the
dancers who truly wish to be great are on the same dancefloor with those who
come for social and or ego reasons. And if the community does not orient
itself to skill but more to social goals,,,,the skills become rather mediocre while
at the same time the social component may be very rewarding...there may be an
inverse relationship here between skillfull and social dancing....should
clubs be rated by these criteria so we know what to expect when we join a club or
go to a milonga? sherrie
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 17:53:51 EDT
From: sherpal1@aol.com
Subject: [Tango-L] endemic
To: tango-l@mit.edu
runcarolinerun wrote
I have no problem dancing with less experienced men as long as they have
some sense of musicality, it's when they haven't improved in months that I
have a problem with. And if they dance like it's a chore instead of
something they actually enjoy doing, that's yet another problem, a more
severe one.
---------
Why would anyone dance if they feel this way...and can a woman ever ask this
question if she feels that is her partner's attitude....what would the lead
think? sherrie
Date: Thu, 6 Jul 2006 08:02:45 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] endemic
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Right, Chris. So your advice is: "Women, don't study tango because men won't
like it. Stop studying and become popular with the men because they don't
study either and then everybody will be happy."
Very productive indeed, Chris.
I once said to a girl:"I met Paul Pellicoro at our milonga and asked him to
dance. Yes, he did do the choreo for Al Pacino, but dancing with him during
the milonga, an ordinary tango, was nothing special. "
She was shocked. She said:"Nothing special ??? Well, if Pellicoro is not
good enough for you...I think, some men don't dance with you because your
tango is too real. You scare them." Too real? What do you mean by that?"
(She was Japanese) "Well, we don't really want to be good dancers, we are
just doing this for fun."
Your kind of girl, I assume.
Astrid
Date: Wed, 5 Jul 2006 17:37:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] ENDEMIC PROBLEM
To: Jonathan Thornton <obscurebardo@gmail.com>, Tango-L
Hi Jonathon,
Tom?s email came in right after I had realized that all of
the pre-registrations so far from out-of-towners for Andres
& Meredith?s upcoming workshops were from single men or
couples. Of the locals, interest has been all types -
single men, single women, and couples. So I?d say that
Tom?s observations fit with our own.
This supports my theory that when women believe that they
need a partner in order to get better, they lose interest
in studying. That occurs at many dance levels and is one
of the biggest reasons I hear of women leaving the dance.
I do not hear that from men. Then there?s the economics
factor. Traveling for workshops may not be seen as cost
effective, especially if they sit around at a milonga. And
who knows what the actual level of dancing at the workshop
will be. For a short time last year, a couple of women
were paying men to take workshops or dance with them at
milongas in other cities.
Since we have been around since the start of the community
eleven years ago, I have made a few observations:
- Between years 3-5, women either level off or go for the
gusto. What provokes the latter is whether they have
gotten over the "step/ornament" phase or if they start
teaching/organizing.
- women are more likely to stop studying tango because of a
romantic interest than a man.
- women are more likely to compromise their technique
because of a romantic interest studying tango than a man.
- women at high levels who continue to take workshops are
usually teachers, so they are also looking for new teaching
techniques.
- women who continue to study and are not teachers tend to
take privates, though they do not reach the high level of
those who continue to take workshops.
Regarding workshops, the need for women teachers can often
be overlooked. By this, I mean women who are on equal
teaching footing with the man, not just a partner. When I
take a workshop, whether a woman is also teaching is a
factor I consider.
With men, the incentives to get better are much more
obvious because the results of getting better are much
clearer. With women, the results of getting better are
more subtle and are more often felt than seen. So I think
it is a lack of knowledge of how far good following can go.
Unless men tell them, women just do not know.
What I think is that people, especially men, are more
protective over a woman?s ego than they are over a man?s
ego, so women are not told the unsugarcoated truth. So
their knowledge is limited. Growing up, men are told
variations of "don?t make your little sister cry", so is
this any surprise? As a general rule, men will not compare
women in front of a woman, but women will compare men in
front of a man. It?s tougher for men to verbalize how a
women feels in his arms without hurting a woman?s ego.
It?s easier for a woman to talk about a guy?s musicality or
vocabulary without damaging another man?s ego.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Thu, 06 Jul 2006 09:41:40 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] endemic
To: astrid <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com, tango-l@mit.edu
astrid wrote:
> Right, Chris. So your advice is: "Women, don't study tango because men won't
> like it. Stop studying and become popular with the men because they don't
> study either and then everybody will be happy."
>
No, that's not what he said. He said to live and let live - it's not
because *you* want to become a superb dancer that everyone has the
same drive, and it is quite suffocating to be in a community where
everyone derides people who're just out to have some fun.
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Solutions Architect/Senior Systems Engineer SGI
--
Bad grammar makes me [sic].
