5065 Flaming women at classes
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 10:27:21 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
To: <stermitz@tango.org>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Thank you for the great letter, Tom !
Absolutely, TV shows like "Dancing with the Stars" is an anti commercial for
most men.
I have a problem now which might be similar.
My women, with whom I regularly dance after the classes started to compare
me with their husbands ( it happens between couples only, of course ) this
way: " It is so good to dance with Igor, but you are so clumsy, can not do
this or that...". And guys feel bad about themselves.
What to do? How to discourage women from criticizing? Of course, they
progress much faster than men.
When I dance with them - they really become better, all men are noticing
that. But that puts them into the distracting position of inflaming
critique.
I do not know what to do. The difference between level of dancers is usually
quite large in my classes and many people insist on not changing partners.
That in some way contributes to the problem.
I'd appreciate advice.
Igor Polk
PS
I have to admit, I think TV shows like "Dancing with the Stars" works for
men who already feel that they are good dancers - they do not feel unable to
do this - they like the sexy partners and atmosphere.
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 20:26:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
To: Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
> My women, with whom I regularly dance after the classes
> started to compare me with their husbands ( it happens
between couples only, of course ) this way: " It is so
good to dance with Igor, but you are so clumsy, can not do
> this or that...". And guys feel bad about themselves.
>
> What to do? How to discourage women from criticizing?
Hi Igor,
Trini, here. Something similar happened in the middle of a
class that Sean & I were teaching. We had taught them some
basic move. When we asked if there were any questions, a
young woman complained that the move didn't feel the same
with her boyfriend as it did with Sean. Sean simply tilted
his head and said, "Well, he's only been doing it for 10
minutes. I've been doing it for 10 years." She (and
everyone else) got the message.
In classes, we also always talk about how better dancers
compensate for less experienced dancers as part of social
etiquette. In particular, experienced men and less
experienced women. That also helps the ladies realize that
it might not always be the guy's fault.
Hope this helps.
Trini de Pittsburgh
Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 22:11:13 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Yeah, I've noticed that the women can be pretty harsh.
As a teacher, I really try to head that off. If I hear it out of the
corner of my ear, I go over and ask if I can help, or just intervene
directly. I usually talk to the woman first, which indicates that
they may have issues to work on as well, and it takes the pressure
off the guy, so that when I give him something to work on he isn't as
defensive.
Yes, I don't like the energy of not changing partners. I tolerate it
in a small class, or when the couples are of vastly different ages.
But, over time most couples will change. Frankly, the ones who never
change never actually succeed at tango.
The best is when you get the busy executive and his wife. Maybe the
marriage counseler said "this time do something SHE wants to do". He
is dragged kicking and screaming to tango, where he is WAY out of his
comfort zone.
On Jul 19, 2007, at 11:27 AM, Igor Polk wrote:
> Thank you for the great letter, Tom !
>
> Absolutely, TV shows like "Dancing with the Stars" is an anti
> commercial for
> most men.
>
> I have a problem now which might be similar.
>
> My women, with whom I regularly dance after the classes started to
> compare
> me with their husbands ( it happens between couples only, of
> course ) this
> way: " It is so good to dance with Igor, but you are so clumsy, can
> not do
> this or that...". And guys feel bad about themselves.
>
> What to do? How to discourage women from criticizing? Of course, they
> progress much faster than men.
> When I dance with them - they really become better, all men are
> noticing
> that. But that puts them into the distracting position of inflaming
> critique.
>
> I do not know what to do. The difference between level of dancers
> is usually
> quite large in my classes and many people insist on not changing
> partners.
> That in some way contributes to the problem.
>
> I'd appreciate advice.
>
> Igor Polk
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 12:43:43 +0100 (BST)
From: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I saw the most interesting thing last Friday at class.
I was dancing with a woman who had been doing about a month less they I have. We danced together as the average 2 month educated, twice a week dancers would. There was some skill but still a little awkward, unbalanced and missing fluidity at times.
But when the teacher danced with her she looked like she had been dancing for a year. It was the fact that he knew how to lift and shift her weight. It was him guiding her and letting her body follow, to be completely honest she looked like she was hardly doing anything to taxing herself.
I came away with mixed emotions, one being surprised about how much the man does actually control and two, feeling a little ego bruised. They fact that she danced pretty badly with me, but danced incredibly with him was a bit of a shock. I took it very personally.
I wonder though and I don't mean to offend anyone with this. But from seeing this I think that women appear to progress quicker then men because they are lead. I mean you could take a complete novice and get her to do a beautiful ocho just by leading it well. You can't take a complete novice and get him to lead a beautiful ocho.
Also I have heard of couples (relationship) breaking up due to the woman feeling better dancing with a more experienced dancer, even though the two of them had started tango at the same time. I think it was because women feel like they dance well far quicker then men do. I see this in Milongas, women who have only just started dancing (like 2 months) go to milonga without fear. Men on the other hand would not set foot in a milonga in till they felt confident enough.
'Mash
----- Start Original Message -----
Sent: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 10:27:21 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
To: <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
> What to do? How to discourage women from criticizing? Of course, they
> progress much faster than men.
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 15:15 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> a woman .... the average 2 month educated, twice a week ...
> It was him guiding her and letting her body follow, to be completely
> honest she looked like she was hardly doing anything to taxing herself.
'Mash, that's real tango.
> They fact that she danced pretty badly with me, but danced incredibly
> with him was a bit of a shock. I took it very personally.
"Very personally" is absolutely the best way of taking it. Well done.
> > from seeing this I think that women appear to progress quicker then men
The idea that it's due to her faster progress is an illusion created by
the class teaching model. The real cause is that the woman is much further
along the path before even the first lesson. That's because this dance is
made to use what she's already got.
> I mean you could take a complete novice and get her to do a beautiful
> ocho just by leading it well.
In my opinion this is the most important realisation of any guy's tango
education. It totally changes his understanding of the dance and his
approach to learning it.
You're fortunate to have got it in just a few weeks. And that's not down
to luck. That's down to something /you've/ already got.
Go with it!
--
Chris
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
*From:* "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net>
*To:* tango-l@mit.edu
*Date:* Fri, 20 Jul 2007 12:43:43 +0100 (BST)
I saw the most interesting thing last Friday at class.
I was dancing with a woman who had been doing about a month less they I have. We danced together as the average 2 month educated, twice a week dancers would. There was some skill but still a little awkward, unbalanced and missing fluidity at times.
But when the teacher danced with her she looked like she had been dancing for a year. It was the fact that he knew how to lift and shift her weight. It was him guiding her and letting her body follow, to be completely honest she looked like she was hardly doing anything to taxing herself.
I came away with mixed emotions, one being surprised about how much the man does actually control and two, feeling a little ego bruised. They fact that she danced pretty badly with me, but danced incredibly with him was a bit of a shock. I took it very personally.
I wonder though and I don't mean to offend anyone with this. But from seeing this I think that women appear to progress quicker then men because they are lead. I mean you could take a complete novice and get her to do a beautiful ocho just by leading it well. You can't take a complete novice and get him to lead a beautiful ocho.
Also I have heard of couples (relationship) breaking up due to the woman feeling better dancing with a more experienced dancer, even though the two of them had started tango at the same time. I think it was because women feel like they dance well far quicker then men do. I see this in Milongas, women who have only just started dancing (like 2 months) go to milonga without fear. Men on the other hand would not set foot in a milonga in till they felt confident enough.
'Mash
----- Start Original Message -----
Sent: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 10:27:21 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
To: <stermitz@tango.org>
Subject: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
> What to do? How to discourage women from criticizing? Of course, they
> progress much faster than men.
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 08:28:21 -0600
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
Pablo Pugliese said in one of his group classes a very long time ago
that a woman dances with many men, while a man always dances with himself.
At 08:15 AM 7/20/2007, Chris, UK wrote:
> > a woman .... the average 2 month educated, twice a week ...
> > It was him guiding her and letting her body follow, to be completely
> > honest she looked like she was hardly doing anything to taxing herself.
>
>'Mash, that's real tango.
>
> > They fact that she danced pretty badly with me, but danced incredibly
> > with him was a bit of a shock. I took it very personally.
>
>"Very personally" is absolutely the best way of taking it. Well done.
>
> > > from seeing this I think that women appear to progress quicker then men
>
>The idea that it's due to her faster progress is an illusion created by
>the class teaching model. The real cause is that the woman is much further
>along the path before even the first lesson. That's because this dance is
>made to use what she's already got.
>
> > I mean you could take a complete novice and get her to do a beautiful
> > ocho just by leading it well.
>
>In my opinion this is the most important realisation of any guy's tango
>education. It totally changes his understanding of the dance and his
>approach to learning it.
>
>You're fortunate to have got it in just a few weeks. And that's not down
>to luck. That's down to something /you've/ already got.
>
>Go with it!
>
>--
>Chris
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>-------- Original Message --------
>
>*Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
>*From:* "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net>
>*To:* tango-l@mit.edu
>*Date:* Fri, 20 Jul 2007 12:43:43 +0100 (BST)
>
>I saw the most interesting thing last Friday at class.
>I was dancing with a woman who had been doing about a month less
>they I have. We danced together as the average 2 month educated,
>twice a week dancers would. There was some skill but still a little
>awkward, unbalanced and missing fluidity at times.
>
>But when the teacher danced with her she looked like she had been
>dancing for a year. It was the fact that he knew how to lift and
>shift her weight. It was him guiding her and letting her body
>follow, to be completely honest she looked like she was hardly doing
>anything to taxing herself.
>
>I came away with mixed emotions, one being surprised about how much
>the man does actually control and two, feeling a little ego bruised.
>They fact that she danced pretty badly with me, but danced
>incredibly with him was a bit of a shock. I took it very personally.
>
>I wonder though and I don't mean to offend anyone with this. But
>>from seeing this I think that women appear to progress quicker then
>men because they are lead. I mean you could take a complete novice
>and get her to do a beautiful ocho just by leading it well. You
>can't take a complete novice and get him to lead a beautiful ocho.
>
>Also I have heard of couples (relationship) breaking up due to the
>woman feeling better dancing with a more experienced dancer, even
>though the two of them had started tango at the same time. I think
>it was because women feel like they dance well far quicker then men
>do. I see this in Milongas, women who have only just started dancing
>(like 2 months) go to milonga without fear. Men on the other hand
>would not set foot in a milonga in till they felt confident enough.
>
>'Mash
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Start Original Message -----
>Sent: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 10:27:21 -0700
>From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
>To: <stermitz@tango.org>
>Subject: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
> > What to do? How to discourage women from criticizing? Of course, they
> > progress much faster than men.
>
>
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 09:53:06 -0500
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
To: tl2@chrisjj.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<cff24c340707200753g3698d626we667504b1eac2b97@mail.gmail.com>
On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 15:15 +0100 (BST), Chris, UK <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
>
> The idea that it's due to her faster progress is an illusion created by
> the class teaching model. The real cause is that the woman is much further
> along the path before even the first lesson. That's because this dance is
> made to use what she's already got.
Like walking backwards in heels while feeling a force coming towards her
chest, to which she is supposed to respond by keeping her chest at location
and transfer that energy to her legs? And, oh yes, to not anticipate leads,
too.
In my opinion and experience, the first few hours of tango are more
difficult for women than men. Men only need to walk forward and exert energy
>from their chest. They decide when to move and in what direction.
The balance appears to change somewhere in the first 10 hours of dancing, as
more movement options are taught to men. The men who are more cerebral start
to suffer at this point. ("How am I going to remember all of these STEPS?")
The men who enjoy and connect to the music and are satisfied with a simple
repertoire do much better.
Ron
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 09:56:26 -0500
From: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
To: "Nina Pesochinsky" <nina@earthnet.net>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<cff24c340707200756i49d566bbge2321076a97a970a@mail.gmail.com>
On 7/20/07, Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> wrote:
>
> Pablo Pugliese said in one of his group classes a very long time ago
> that a woman dances with many men, while a man always dances with himself.
>
>
> I hope Pablo was being sarcastic here. A man dances the tango for the
> woman. The best leaders responds to the followers, adjusting to her body and
> her movements. A man who dances with himself should be sitting a lot.
Ron
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 07:59:03 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
To: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net>, tango-l@mit.edu
Hi 'Mash,
Trini, here. Cut yourself some slack. While you're still
learning vocabulary, you're not going to be able to focus
as much on listening to your partner. That's why your
teacher made your partner look so good - he doesn't need to
think about the steps and can just focus on her. With
practice the same thing will happen with you. Just take a
beginning woman with 0 months experience for a simple walk
onto the dance floor and you'll see.
You're right about women progressing more quickly because
they are danced with by guys who already know what they are
doing. But beginning guys can also progress more quickly
by dancing with women who really know what they are doing.
It is hard for beginners to work with other beginners.
When tango was at its peak, beginners learned with
experienced dancers (mothers, fathers, aunts, uncles,
etc.), not with other beginners. This is why there is so
much debate about how to teach tango to beginners en masse.
It's relatively new territory.
So I would encourage you to ask good women dancers to
dance. And if you've only been dancing for 2 months, many
women dancers will be inclined to say yes. Take advantage
of this "honeymoon" period! I often prefer dancing with a
beginner with a limited vocabulary than someone who's
trying these fancy steps because he's with an experienced
dancer. You can always ask your teacher which women are
likely to say yes to you. If you ask a woman, and she says
no, don't take it personally. At your level, chances are
her saying no has nothing to do with you. (But I wouldn't
recommend asking at a festival.)
A really good tanguera can make you feel as if you can do
anything. You'll find yourself to be less clumsy, more
fluid, and, perhaps, even more inspired. With a good
tanguera, even a novice can be inspired to lead an ocho or
imitate what he sees on the dance floor.
Something you may want to do is take privates with a female
instructor if there's a good one in your area. Not to be
sexist, but one of the issues for beginning men is getting
a practice partner. So for an hour, you'll get both a
teacher and a good practice partner.
And any couple who supposedly breaks up over disparate
dance skills in tango had other issues.
Happy learning,
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- 'Mash <mashdot@toshine.net> wrote:
> I saw the most interesting thing last Friday at class.
> I was dancing with a woman who had been doing about a
> month less they I have. We danced together as the average
> 2 month educated, twice a week dancers would. There was
> some skill but still a little awkward, unbalanced and
> missing fluidity at times.
>
> But when the teacher danced with her she looked like she
> had been dancing for a year. It was the fact that he knew
> how to lift and shift her weight. It was him guiding her
> and letting her body follow, to be completely honest she
> looked like she was hardly doing anything to taxing
> herself.
>
> I came away with mixed emotions, one being surprised
> about how much the man does actually control and two,
> feeling a little ego bruised. They fact that she danced
> pretty badly with me, but danced incredibly with him was
> a bit of a shock. I took it very personally.
>
> I wonder though and I don't mean to offend anyone with
> this. But from seeing this I think that women appear to
> progress quicker then men because they are lead. I mean
> you could take a complete novice and get her to do a
> beautiful ocho just by leading it well. You can't take a
> complete novice and get him to lead a beautiful ocho.
>
> Also I have heard of couples (relationship) breaking up
> due to the woman feeling better dancing with a more
> experienced dancer, even though the two of them had
> started tango at the same time. I think it was because
> women feel like they dance well far quicker then men do.
> I see this in Milongas, women who have only just started
> dancing (like 2 months) go to milonga without fear. Men
> on the other hand would not set foot in a milonga in till
> they felt confident enough.
>
> 'Mash
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Start Original Message -----
> Sent: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 10:27:21 -0700
> From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
> To: <stermitz@tango.org>
> Subject: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
> > What to do? How to discourage women from criticizing?
> Of course, they
> > progress much faster than men.
>
>
Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 09:06:15 -0600
From: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
To: "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
What Pablo's statement meant was that a woman can dance with men with
different skills and she will dance differently. A man, on the other
hand cannot dance beyond his skills.
Nina
At 08:56 AM 7/20/2007, Tango Society of Central Illinois wrote:
>On 7/20/07, Nina Pesochinsky
><<mailto:nina@earthnet.net>nina@earthnet.net> wrote:
>Pablo Pugliese said in one of his group classes a very long time ago
>that a woman dances with many men, while a man always dances with himself.
>
>
>I hope Pablo was being sarcastic here. A man dances the tango for
>the woman. The best leaders responds to the followers, adjusting to
>her body and her movements. A man who dances with himself should be
>sitting a lot.
>
>
>
>Ron
>
>
>
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 16:47 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Ron wrote:
> Like walking backwards in heels while feeling a force coming towards her
> chest, to which she is supposed to respond by keeping her chest at
> location and transfer that energy to her legs?
Taught like that, yes - hard. But that's not the way good followers do it.
> And, oh yes, to not anticipate leads, too.
That too is iatrogenic. The only girls I've met who anticipate are victims
of the DIC* classes - she's following not her guy but the programming of a
now-absent instructor who taught her the 'correct' girl step to accompany
each guy step.
> the first few hours of tango are more difficult for women than men.
Only in the perverted world of the DIC classes. In the real world, the
woman has it easier from the very first moment. Because the dance is made
as something to be given to her by the guy.
> A man dances the tango for the woman.
> A man who dances with himself should be sitting a lot.
On that we agree - 100%.
--
Chris
* "Demonstrate -> Instruct -> Correct"
-------- Original Message --------
*Subject:* Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
*From:* "Tango Society of Central Illinois" <tango.society@gmail.com>
*To:* tl2@chrisjj.com
*CC:* tango-l@mit.edu
*Date:* Fri, 20 Jul 2007 09:53:06 -0500
On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 15:15 +0100 (BST), Chris, UK <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
>
> The idea that it's due to her faster progress is an illusion created by
> the class teaching model. The real cause is that the woman is much further
> along the path before even the first lesson. That's because this dance is
> made to use what she's already got.
Like walking backwards in heels while feeling a force coming towards her
chest, to which she is supposed to respond by keeping her chest at location
and transfer that energy to her legs? And, oh yes, to not anticipate leads,
too.
In my opinion and experience, the first few hours of tango are more
difficult for women than men. Men only need to walk forward and exert energy
>from their chest. They decide when to move and in what direction.
The balance appears to change somewhere in the first 10 hours of dancing, as
more movement options are taught to men. The men who are more cerebral start
to suffer at this point. ("How am I going to remember all of these STEPS?")
The men who enjoy and connect to the music and are satisfied with a simple
repertoire do much better.
Ron
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 09:18:06 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
--- "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
> > And, oh yes, to not anticipate leads, too.
>
> That too is iatrogenic. The only girls I've met who
> anticipate are victims of the DIC* classes - she's
following not her guy but the programming of a now-absent
instructor who taught her the 'correct' girl step to
accompany each guy step.
Dude, you need to get out of your deep-backwater part of
England, more. :)
Women can "learn" to anticipate just by watching other
women at a milonga, as any guy who has had his leg hung
onto by a woman who wants to do a leg wrap (whether it's
lead or not) can tell you.
No, it's not the DIC method that's causing it. It's
sometimes just overenthusiasm.
Happy tangos,
Trini de Pittsburgh
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 15:34:46 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Hi Mash,
Don't listen too much to what people tell you. You've seen the truth with your own 2 eyes and no amount of
rationalisation can change it. You're right - at beginner level, Tango is much easier for women than men because
the man leads. Yes, I can easily lead a woman after an 8-week beginner course and make her look and feel great.
My partner, who's a much better dancer than me, can't do the same thing with the men. You just have to accept
that it's going to take you a lot longer and you're going to have to work a lot harder than the women to reach the
same level. And don't take it personally - it's just the nature of the dance and every guy goes what you're going
through now.
As for couples breaking up - if they're already together when they start to learn, it usually isn't a problem. But
don't get too attached to any girl you meet in the beginner class because no matter how much she might like you,
she'll move on to a better partner in the next class. Pretty girls can always pick and choose from the better
dancers and after you've been learning for a few months, beginner girls will start to seek you out. But still don't
get too attached because they'll quickly overtake you and move on to even better partners. This might happen to
you many times as girls starting even 1-year after you will soon overtake you and move on to even better
partners. But, eventually, things will turn around. Work hard and practice and, eventually, you'll be one of the
best dancers in your community and then you can do the picking and choosing; then you can start to enjoy the
sweet fruit of your labours. At least, that's what I see and am told by my former students. I have no personal
experience because I'm married .... sigh.
Keith, HK
On Fri Jul 20 19:43 , ""Mash" sent:
>I saw the most interesting thing last Friday at class.
>I was dancing with a woman who had been doing about a month less they I have. We danced together as the average 2 month educated, twice a week dancers would. There was some skill but still a little awkward, unbalanced and missing fluidity at times.
>
>But when the teacher danced with her she looked like she had been dancing for a year. It was the fact that he knew how to lift and shift her weight. It was him guiding her and letting her body follow, to be completely honest she looked like she was hardly doing anything to taxing herself.
>
>I came away with mixed emotions, one being surprised about how much the man does actually control and two, feeling a little ego bruised. They fact that she danced pretty badly with me, but danced incredibly with him was a bit of a shock. I took it very personally.
>
>I wonder though and I don't mean to offend anyone with this. But from seeing this I think that women appear to progress quicker then men because they are lead. I mean you could take a complete novice and get her to do a beautiful ocho just by leading it well. You can't take a complete novice and get him to lead a beautiful ocho.
>
>Also I have heard of couples (relationship) breaking up due to the woman feeling better dancing with a more experienced dancer, even though the two of them had started tango at the same time. I think it was because women feel like they dance well far quicker then men do. I see this in Milongas, women who have only just started dancing (like 2 months) go to milonga without fear. Men on the other hand would not set foot in a milonga in till they felt confident enough.
>
>'Mash
>
>
>
>
>
>----- Start Original Message -----
>Sent: Thu, 19 Jul 2007 10:27:21 -0700
>From: "Igor Polk" ipolk@virtuar.com>
>To: stermitz@tango.org>
>Subject: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
>> What to do? How to discourage women from criticizing? Of course, they
>> progress much faster than men.
>
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 20:51:56 +0100 (BST)
From: Andrew RYSER SZYMA?SKI <arrabaltango@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
To: Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Sorry, I can't see the sense of this; if, as Cacho
Dante says,
"Guys, to dance tango, you must listen to the heart of
the woman"
the the man has to adapt to the woman, not the other
[patriarchal] way round. I find I have to dance
differently according to the way my partners move. The
whole purpose of the exercise is to make the most
diabolically useless woman look, & feel, good.
As for Pablo Pugliese, after "experiencing" him on
several occasions in our London, UK, milongas, I can't
help concluding he was speaking for himself. He has
yet to find where the stage finishes and the
dancefloor begins....Like many of the recent spate of
gurus from Bs As who, with their elaborate
circomvoluted spaghetti-junction moves take up so much
space that everybody else on the floor has to give
them a very broad & wide berth. As a consequence, they
do not practically feel the need to develop any
navigational skills, but still find time to preach
about them.
Cheers,
Andy.
https://www.academia-del-tango-argentino.com/html/france/textes/texte4_fr.htm
--- Nina Pesochinsky <nina@earthnet.net> wrote:
> What Pablo's statement meant was that a woman can
> dance with men with
> different skills and she will dance differently. A
> man, on the other
> hand cannot dance beyond his skills.
>
> Nina
> >
> At 08:56 AM 7/20/2007, Tango Society of Central
> Illinois wrote:
> >On 7/20/07, Nina Pesochinsky
> ><<mailto:nina@earthnet.net>nina@earthnet.net>
> wrote:
> >Pablo Pugliese said in one of his group classes a
> very long time ago
> >that a woman dances with many men, while a man
> always dances with himself.
> >
> >
Andrew W. RYSER SZYMA?SKI,
23b All Saints Road,
London, W11 1HE,
07944 128 739.
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 14:01:15 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
To: Andrew RYSER "SZYMAQSKI" <arrabaltango@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Hi Andrew,
Perhaps I can add some insight into what I think Nina
means.
If a man decides that he doesn't want to lead volcadas,
colgadas, back ochos, or whatever, he doesn't have to learn
how to do it. (BTW, I actually had a student who once
decided that he didn't want to lead back ochos, so he never
did it. He didn't advance very far, but I had to respect
his choices.)
However, a woman can't just decide that she just doesn't
want to do back ochos, or forward ochos, or turns. Even a
novice going to her first milonga is likely to experience
an ocho or molinete even if she's never been taught.
So the man is limited by what he knows moreso than a woman
is.
As a follower who also leads, a lot of what I do AS A
LEADER comes from what I personally experience as a
follower. So I learn how certain men time things, how they
lead things. I take those experiences as a follower into
my dance when I lead and I try to recreate those
experiences for my partner.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Andrew RYSER SZYMA?SKI <arrabaltango@yahoo.co.uk>
wrote:
> Sorry, I can't see the sense of this; if, as Cacho
> Dante says,
> "Guys, to dance tango, you must listen to the heart of
> the woman"
> the the man has to adapt to the woman, not the other
> [patriarchal] way round. I find I have to dance
> differently according to the way my partners move. The
> whole purpose of the exercise is to make the most
> diabolically useless woman look, & feel, good.
>
> As for Pablo Pugliese, after "experiencing" him on
> several occasions in our London, UK, milongas, I can't
> help concluding he was speaking for himself. He has
> yet to find where the stage finishes and the
> dancefloor begins....Like many of the recent spate of
> gurus from Bs As who, with their elaborate
> circomvoluted spaghetti-junction moves take up so much
> space that everybody else on the floor has to give
> them a very broad & wide berth. As a consequence, they
> do not practically feel the need to develop any
> navigational skills, but still find time to preach
> about them.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy.
>
>
https://www.academia-del-tango-argentino.com/html/france/textes/texte4_fr.htm
>
Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
that gives answers, not web links.
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2007 00:06 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Trini wrote:
> > Women can "learn" to anticipate just by watching other women at a
> > milonga
> it's not the DIC method that's causing it.
I guess you think it's pure coincidence that the DIC lessons have women
spend hours watching and then imitating another woman's movements.
Sigh...
--
Chris
PS All, here's a great video clip from 1970:
Anibal Troilo - Quejas de Bandoneon
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJIugXn2V0c
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2007 19:50:07 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
Hi Chris,
The reality is that if a beginning woman goes to a milonga
or a practica on a fairly regular basis, she's likely to be
lead into stuff like boleos or ganchos or paradas before
she is even taught those elements in class. In fact, when
Sean & I finally teach some of those things in a class
setting, we have to teach the women what is NOT a gancho or
boleo or whatever.
That's why I said that it can just be overenthusiasm. It's
normal for women to want to do pretty things on the dance
floor. So they watch other women, who may unfortunately
not be the best role models, and try to imitate them.
Since the pressure for women is to move and do the step,
they tend to anticipate. They want to be "right", but that
is somewhat independent of teaching style. If a woman only
dances with good leaders, then anticipation is less likely
to happen.
But let's get real. A beginning woman cannot tell a good
leader from a bad leader as readily as an experienced
dancer can. And she may try to please a mediocre leader
more than a good leader. Beginners are easily impressed.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
> Trini wrote:
>
> > > Women can "learn" to anticipate just by watching
> other women at a
> > > milonga
>
> > it's not the DIC method that's causing it.
>
> I guess you think it's pure coincidence that the DIC
> lessons have women
> spend hours watching and then imitating another woman's
> movements.
>
> Sigh...
>
> --
> Chris
>
> PS All, here's a great video clip from 1970:
>
> Anibal Troilo - Quejas de Bandoneon
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJIugXn2V0c
>
>
>
Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 04:12:55 -0400
From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Hi Trini,
Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
> The reality is that if a beginning woman goes to a milonga
> or a practica on a fairly regular basis, she's likely to be
> lead into stuff like boleos or ganchos or paradas before
> she is even taught those elements in class.
Based on some of the class teaching I've seen, this is probably a very
good thing. Provided the man actually knows how to lead her (which is
the cornerstone of Chris' argument, which his opponents continue to
overlook). But if he does know how to lead, he can probably tell that
those things are uncalled for with a beginner.
Moreover, I know fine tango dancers who were never taught these things
in any class. I know many, many more who have been taught them ten
times, and who still can't get them right.
> If a woman only dances with good leaders, then anticipation is less likely to happen.
>
This is a virtual quotation of Chris' argument, isn't it?
> But let's get real. A beginning woman cannot tell a good
> leader from a bad leader as readily as an experienced
> dancer can.
I see this point refuted nearly every day. Women of any level, like men
of any level, can tell when it's working and when it's not, and you know
that as well as I do. Beginners are constantly lamenting the
difficulties of working with each other in beginner-level classes.
> And she may try to please a mediocre leader more than a good leader.
And that's because a good leader will likely be pleasing her. With a
mediocre leader, my bet is that she's trying to pacify him, or else not
fall down.
> Beginners are easily impressed.
>
I suspect the opposite.
We self-important tango assholes like to believe that so many people
don't come back for a second lesson, or second month, because they're
intimidated, or had a boo-hoo time, or some BS like that. And that's
pure condescension on our part. Chances are, they just Weren't impressed.
What I see you doing here is mainly turning a blind eye to the validity
of Chris' points, in order to defend "realities" which are unfortunate
in the first place. If the men were generally better, I don't think we'd
even be talking about this.
Therefore, improve the damn men.
Jake
DC
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 10:42:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Hi Jake,
> Based on some of the class teaching I've seen, this is
> probably a very good thing. Provided the man actually
knows how to lead her (which is the cornerstone of Chris'
argument, which his opponents continue to overlook). But if
he does know how to lead, he can probably tell that those
things are uncalled for with a beginner.
I don't have problem with guys showing women new steps.
Some guys are good, some aren't. That's just a fact of
life.
> > But let's get real. A beginning woman cannot tell a
> good leader from a bad leader as readily as an
experienced dancer can.
> I see this point refuted nearly every day. Women of any
> level, like men of any level, can tell when it's working
and when it's not, and you know that as well as I do.
Beginners are constantly lamenting the difficulties of
working with each other in beginner-level classes.
My statement come from comments I hear all the time from
beginners and intermediate women ("He's not that good. I
thought he was last year, but I was a beginner then.") In
places like DC or NYC, you may have enough good role models
for beginners to see and emulate. A lot of places don't
have that.
It's very easy for inexperienced dancers to be impressed
with flash, both men and women. Heck, calling oneself a
"teacher" even sets it someone up as being more
knowledgable than a non-teacher, though we all know that is
not always the case.
We've had problems here with both of those issues. In the
case of "flash", the guy also happened to be very handsome
and the girls developed crushes on him. You'd see him
dancing with a less experienced woman doing the talking
tango, and even putting his hand on her tailbone to get her
to do an ocho. Yet, so many people thought this guy was
such a good dancer! Now that he's finally left the area
(he's in your neck of the woods now!), we're finally
getting rid of the bad habits he instilled in a lot of the
women.
But basically, many beginning women are happy to be asked
with danced by anybody. They also tend to assume that if
they miss a step that it is their fault and may not be able
to recognize that it was a mislead. I know that from
personal experience.
BTW, women are less willing to talk about guys in mixed
company, so I'm not surprised if you're not privy to those
conversations.
Trini de Pittsburgh
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2007 19:44:21 -0400
From: "WHITE 95 R" <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
To: spatz@tangoDC.com, tango-L@mit.edu
>
>What I see you doing here is mainly turning a blind eye to the validity
>of Chris' points, in order to defend "realities" which are unfortunate
>in the first place. If the men were generally better, I don't think we'd
>even be talking about this.
>
>Therefore, improve the damn men.
>
>Jake
Hi Jake,
A little problem here... I agree with "improving the damned men", but if you
follow Chris' arguments, this is impossible. If I remember correctly, Chris
argues, nay, rails against all teachers and their teaching. How in the
hell is anyone going to improve the damned men?
BTW, people should know. I've watched you dance and heard you DJ and I
definitely give you kudos and credibility. I think that many people can
become very confused and misled reading these forums. Specially if they are
beginners or don't have good teachers or examples of tango nearby. Unlike
yourself, many "experts" who expound erudite, can not dance their way out of
a paper bag and have very little talent for teaching or DJing either.
Although some words and writings might make sense to the cognoscenti, it
does not mean they reflect the truth of the writers' dance floor creds.
Respectfully,
Manuel
PS I hope you make it to Atlanta again... (we are having a great 4 days of
tango this week ;-))
https://imagine-windowslive.com/hotmail/?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_mini_pcmag_0507
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 10:51:03 +1000
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
Chris apparently wrote:
> And, oh yes, to not anticipate leads, too.
>
> That too is iatrogenic. The only girls I've met who
> anticipate are victims of the DIC* classes - she's
> following not her guy but the programming of a now-absent
> instructor who taught her the 'correct' girl step to
> accompany each guy step.
Well, I've felt this in:
* women whose have just been sitting at a milonga and have never done
a class
* women whose have just been sitting at a practica and have never
done a class
* women who have just watched a tango show
* women who saw tango on dance with stars or somesuch
* women who have been dancing with someone who muscles them around
the floor
* women who have been dancing with someone whose lead is vague but
expects them to do something anyway
* and women who have been doing step classes. And self-led boleo
classes...
* oh, and men who usually lead
Its normal. Followers want to make the dance work. They see
something, they try to copy it. For some things this works fine.
For the core skills of tango, it doesn't work much.
I think you might be suffering from confirmation bias -- which is
sadly what many teachers of sequence classes also seem to suffer
from. Sequence classes as the main form of learning are ineffective.
But you way overstate the case here.
Ability to dance tango is not innate, though it draws on skills which
are innate for many people. The problem is to find ways of learning
which work with these skills rather than against them.
Gary
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 17:24:07 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
To: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>, "Tango-L"
<tango-L@mit.edu>
On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 04:12:55 -0400, "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)"
<spatz@tangoDC.com> said:
>
> We self-important tango assholes like to believe that so many people
> don't come back for a second lesson, or second month, because they're
> intimidated, or had a boo-hoo time, or some BS like that. And that's
> pure condescension on our part. Chances are, they just Weren't impressed.
>
A thought:
We give them multiple reasons to be unimpressed. many reasons
have nought to do with the quality of our dance. I think most
often they are not impressed with us as people.
Plenty of people come to a tango practice or class to meet new
people. They tend to be rather nice people, IMO. However they
want more than just a sense of welcome, but a feeling of being
around people just like like them.
In a small community, it doesn't take much to get them to decide
that they won't be happy, and so off they go. This in fact has
little to do with how nice the people in the group themselves
are. It's a matter of perception, and how other people interpret
minor events we don't see as important.
It's hard to get out of the trap of being a small community in
a smaller city. There seems to be a barrier at 20 people they
find hard to break through.
In larger towns, multiple small circles interact; those truly
motivated to learn the dance can go elsewhere if they don't
like their current location.
Christopher
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 16:41:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
To: Tango-L <tango-L@mit.edu>
Based on my conversations over many years with people who
left tango, decided not to continue, etc., Christopher's
comments are accurate. It was certainly a problem here,
partly because of the impression that tango was hard or was
for "thinking people". As one of our most committed
students once told me ("I had heard about tango earlier,
but for some reason I thought it was elitist. I can't
point to specific thing, though, that gave me that
impression.")
Aside from that, comments of the non-committed were mostly
about their own scheduling issues or finances. Or in the
case of Pittsburghers, they move to other cities. Sigh.
Otherwise, I hadn't heard many comments about tango being
too difficult to learn or that it was unimpressive.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- ceverett@ceverett.com wrote:
> On Sun, 22 Jul 2007 04:12:55 -0400, "Jake Spatz
> (TangoDC.com)"
> <spatz@tangoDC.com> said:
> >
> > We self-important tango assholes like to believe that
> so many people
> > don't come back for a second lesson, or second month,
> because they're
> > intimidated, or had a boo-hoo time, or some BS like
> that. And that's
> > pure condescension on our part. Chances are, they just
> Weren't impressed.
> >
>
> A thought:
>
> We give them multiple reasons to be unimpressed. many
> reasons
> have nought to do with the quality of our dance. I think
> most
> often they are not impressed with us as people.
>
> Plenty of people come to a tango practice or class to
> meet new
> people. They tend to be rather nice people, IMO.
> However they
> want more than just a sense of welcome, but a feeling of
> being
> around people just like like them.
>
> In a small community, it doesn't take much to get them to
> decide
> that they won't be happy, and so off they go. This in
> fact has
> little to do with how nice the people in the group
> themselves
> are. It's a matter of perception, and how other people
> interpret
> minor events we don't see as important.
>
> It's hard to get out of the trap of being a small
> community in
> a smaller city. There seems to be a barrier at 20
> people they
> find hard to break through.
>
> In larger towns, multiple small circles interact; those
> truly
> motivated to learn the dance can go elsewhere if they
> don't
> like their current location.
>
> Christopher
>
Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 02:34 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Trini wrote
> she's likely to be lead into stuff like boleos or ganchos or paradas
> before she is even taught those elements in class.
Well yes, especially if she doesn't do classes. So what's the problem?
> when Sean & I finally teach some of those things in a class setting,
> we have to teach the women what is NOT a gancho or boleo or whatever.
Ah, I get it. The problem is she didn't learn these steps from you.
Trini, that's /your/ problem. Trying to make it hers does not help.
> Since the pressure for women is to move and do the step, they tend to
> anticipate.
Good leaders do not pressure women to "move and do the step". Such
pressure comes only from bad teachers and bad leaders. Good leaders make
the dance out of whatever she can do naturally and comfortably.
Instead of trying to fix the girl, you could ask yourself where these bad
leaders learned their bad leading.
--
Chris
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:16:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
Chris,
You're behind in reading this thread. I understand you've
been swimming, lately. :) Check subsequent threads.
Trini
--- "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
> Trini wrote
> > she's likely to be lead into stuff like boleos or
> ganchos or paradas
> > before she is even taught those elements in class.
>
> Well yes, especially if she doesn't do classes. So what's
> the problem?
>
> > when Sean & I finally teach some of those things in a
> class setting,
> > we have to teach the women what is NOT a gancho or
> boleo or whatever.
>
> Ah, I get it. The problem is she didn't learn these steps
> from you.
>
> Trini, that's /your/ problem. Trying to make it hers does
> not help.
>
> > Since the pressure for women is to move and do the
> step, they tend to
> > anticipate.
>
> Good leaders do not pressure women to "move and do the
> step". Such
> pressure comes only from bad teachers and bad leaders.
> Good leaders make
> the dance out of whatever she can do naturally and
> comfortably.
>
> Instead of trying to fix the girl, you could ask yourself
> where these bad
> leaders learned their bad leading.
>
> --
> Chris
>
Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 03:33 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> Check subsequent threads.
I did.
Instead of trying to fix the girl, you could ask yourself where your bad
leaders learned their bad leading.
--
Chris
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2007 19:48:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
Osmosis
~Sean
--- "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
> > Check subsequent threads.
>
> I did.
>
> Instead of trying to fix the girl, you could ask yourself
> where your bad
> leaders learned their bad leading.
>
> --
> Chris
Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection.
Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2007 14:38:32 +1000
From: Gary Barnes <garybarn@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Flaming women at classes
Extracted (perhaps out of context) from what Trini wrote on 21/07/2007
>
> ... if a beginning woman goes to a milonga
> or a practica on a fairly regular basis, she's likely to be
> lead into stuff like boleos or ganchos or paradas before
> she is even taught those elements in class.
This can be fine, or problematic, depending on the man and the
woman. If she has strength, balance, trust, etc and the guy is a
good leader who chooses the right moment, it can be great, whether
she has been taught it or not.
Without those, he shouldn't be leading it!
But, guys do!
I've seen this a lot from guys who don't go to classes at all (maybe
they've seen it in a show? or see other people doing it on the
milonga floor and try to copy what they think they see?), as well as
>from ones fresh out of classes which don't teach leading, but 'moves'
-- or which teach this stuff to men or women who are not ready for it.
Also, so many women seem to get a weird idea of what these things
are, from sitting at a milonga watching, or from the whole range of
other sources I've listed before. Plus, from guys who wrench her
through some parody of it while 'teaching' her on the dance floor, or
give verbal instructions on the floor. Certainly, it doesn't need
the intercession of a bad teacher to plant these evil seeds - people
seem able to produce them from scratch! But also, even when women are
learning just fine from a good teacher and lots of practice, or are
just practicing and dancing and working out fine, it seems to only
take one lesson from a crap teacher where they do 'the man puts his
leg here and then the woman lifts her leg here' type of instruction,
and they're off doing self -led 'gancho' impressions, to the dismay
of those around them on the floor. Which is very hard to stop them
>from doing -- so I am glad there are teachers who subsequently teach
them that this is not a gancho (even though that effectively means
saying that the other teacher,or that guy on the floor, was wrong!)
I agree that its often more important for women to be told by someone
what a gancho or boleo is _not_ -- to stop them anticipating them.
And then they can get back to developing their dancing skills to the
point where a guy will lead them in these moves and it will 'just
work', without her having to 'know' it.
>
> Beginners are easily impressed.
Sadly, this does seem to be true around here. And women, more so
than men, mostly, in my observation - though there are some men
attracted to the girl doing the high flicks and stuff, and don't
notice that while she is doing that, the guy she is dancing with is
gritting his teeth and waiting for the song to end before someone
loses an eye or he loses his back...
I've spoken to quite a few women where they say they were initially
keen to do dance with the guys who dragged them through complex
stuff, and they did not see anything particularly desirable in
dancing with guys who were musical, and attentive, and only led what
could their partner could dance. Partly because most women cannot
see it - and as beginners, they may not feel it either. Later , these
women discovered the joy of these other leaders, and left the
wrestlers behind. The wrestlers then move on to the next crop of
beginners, often undermining good classes and good practice with
others.... Its a hard cycle to break. We can all see where they are
getting the bad habits from -- these few leaders, or one bad teacher
-- but its hard to stop it happening. Hopefully they will stick at
it long enough to have an epiphany of some kind.
How you stop these bad leaders developing is harder. For a few, its
clear: they go to teachers who teach bad stuff, which they repeat.
But I've seen guys produce bad stuff of their own accord, without
teachers; and others where no matter what class they go to, they
come out of it with a 'move' which they have to explain verbally to
the woman -- even when the class has been explicitly not about that,
and others have got other things entirely from it. Maybe for some
people, if they start tango from a 'dance is steps that the man and
woman learn' point of view, they will always see everything through
that prism: classes, what other dancers are doing, what their partner
says afterwards, why certain people don't want to dance with them...
Gary
