4133 Front Ochos
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 07:24:24 -0500
From: Lois Donnay <donnay@DONNAY.NET>
Subject: Front Ochos
I have tried to figure out how ballroom tango came out of the tango from
Argentina. They are so different! One place they can be similar is in the front
ocho done badly. In ballroom they are called Fans. The man steps back on his
left, twisting to his right to invite the lady to step to his right side. The
woman steps forward on her right, "fanning" her left leg. Big pivot, she steps
across with her left, then readjusts in front of him for the "tan-go-close". It
looks as if someone peeked into a Buenos Aires dance hall, saw some tango, then
went back to their home country and tried to do what they remembered seeing.
Few men in ballroom have enough twist in their bodies to lead this well, but it
doesn't matter. The woman knows her part. This is where the two types of tangos
part company (I hope). In A. tango, if the leader doesn't get his chest moving,
the follower shouldn't go. If she does (ocho machine) she should stick to
ballroom.
I don't like leading beginning women who have been "taught" the front ocho. Any
other leaders out there have the same experience?
Lois
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of astrid
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 8:08 PM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] the sandwich
>
>
> I get some students who come to me with the front ocho -
> either from a video or another teacher, and I tell them not
> to do it. This doesn't make them happy, because they paid for
> it and it's so easy to do. But it's not tango. It's ballroom.
>
> Ballroom? With all respect, Lois, but this is ridiculous.
>
> Astrid
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Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 04:27:35 -1200
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: Front Ochos
> I don't like leading beginning women who have been
> "taught" the front ocho. Any other leaders out there have
> the same experience?
>
> Lois
Lois:
The problem with leading beginners front ochos is that most
of them won't come forward because they are afraid they are
going to step on the man's foot. Some are so petrified, they
freeze and fall forward off their axis because they won't
move. (Sounds like a wonderful opportunity for a volcada.
Nevermind!!)
It's fine to teach beginning leaders and followers front
ochos as a movement and balance exercise. (Men should
practice ochos as well. It will improve their dancing. It's
helped me.)
Michael
Washington, DC
Had two heavenly tandas at NY All night milonga. The others
I can forget.
>
> > This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous
content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
P.S. Wouldn't it be wonderful if Tango L had a program like
the one above that scanned for ad hominen attacks and
certain topics, like the 8 count basic, and blocked them
from transmission?
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 17:07:43 +0000
From: Sergio Vandekier <sergiovandekier990@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Front ochos
I have found that teaching front ochos is something very easy and almost
completely devoid of any difficulty.
The secret to being a good tango instructor is placed in the qualities that
Tom Stermitz so well describes.
Among those qualities to have digested properly the teaching process in a
form that when you instruct at the same time (and not later) you "prevent"
problems that may appear.
Exercises to do front ochos are performed at the beginning of every lesson.
To teach a front ocho properly (Salon Tango) you show the back of the woman
and with your hand divide her dorsum in two parts describing a vertical
line that goes from her neck to her waist.
Her back is in this form divided into a Rt. and a Lt. half.
Then you place your hand on her back and explain to the beginner tango
dancers that the right part of her back controls her Rt. leg and that the
Lt. part of her body controls her Lt. one.
Then you proceed to show the correct lead of a front ocho.
You touch the lady's rt. side of her back with the fingers of your right
hand applying a slight pressure (no stubbing here) and the lady advances
her rt. leg. to your right.
Then with the area of your rt. hand close to the wrist (the tennar
prominence of the hand) you put some pressure on the lt side of the woman's
back so that she pivots and advances her lt. leg finishing the second half
of her front ocho.
You repeat this several times so that the students see it.
Then you show the men (leaders) yourself, how it feels in their back as you
lead them to perform the ocho.
Once they follow properly you allow them to lead the women with the warning
of:
Do not execute any ochos unless they are lead by the man. Then you instruct
the men to lead only one ocho at the time. Warning them that that is all
that is done, The front ochos are usually done isolated and not repeated in
sequences.
With this technique I never found any problems teaching front Ochos.
There are more elements to consider of course, such as when the ocho is
done, how is the man standing, how it is combined, precedes or follows other
moves, etc., etc, etc.
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 10:39:50 -0700
From: Duende de Tango <duendedetango@MAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Front Ochos
Not knowing the difference several years in Costa
Rica, I studied Tango (turns out it was Ball Room
Tango). I enjoyed it. Know that I know a little
Tango Argentina (Salon del centro, milonguero,
the Milonga and some Vals cursada), I enjoy the
later even more. Both have been fun to learn and
dance.
Ball room tango has some of its own terminology
for steps that really are not done in Salon Tango
del centro. Desplazamientos, stepping backwards
..., some lovely giros, ... that you do not see
in Tango del Centro (Salon).
>I have tried to figure out how ballroom tango came out of the tango from
>Argentina. They are so different! One place they
>can be similar is in the front
>ocho done badly. In ballroom they are called Fans. The man steps back on his
>left, twisting to his right to invite the lady to step to his right side. The
>woman steps forward on her right, "fanning" her left leg. Big pivot, she steps
>across with her left, then readjusts in front of
>him for the "tan-go-close". It
>looks as if someone peeked into a Buenos Aires
>dance hall, saw some tango, then
>went back to their home country and tried to do what they remembered seeing.
>
>Few men in ballroom have enough twist in their
>bodies to lead this well, but it
>doesn't matter. The woman knows her part. This
>is where the two types of tangos
>part company (I hope). In A. tango, if the
>leader doesn't get his chest moving,
>the follower shouldn't go. If she does (ocho machine) she should stick to
>ballroom.
>
>I don't like leading beginning women who have
>been "taught" the front ocho. Any
>other leaders out there have the same experience?
>
>Lois
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
>> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of astrid
>> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 8:08 PM
> > To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
>> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] the sandwich
>>
>>
>> I get some students who come to me with the front ocho -
>> either from a video or another teacher, and I tell them not
>> to do it. This doesn't make them happy, because they paid for
>> it and it's so easy to do. But it's not tango. It's ballroom.
>>
>> Ballroom? With all respect, Lois, but this is ridiculous.
>>
>> Astrid
>
>--
>This message has been scanned for viruses and
>dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
>believed to be clean.
>
--
Costa rica
©2004, por Duende de Tango, viviendo en el paraíso,
todos de los derechos reservados del mundo
Rich coast,
of flowers and dreams,
dancing nights,
and candle lights.
as the mist passes
into the night ...
I miss her breath
of life and ...
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 17:32:23 -0400
From: rhink2@NETSCAPE.NET
Subject: Front Ochos
Hola All,
I have pondered the same question Lois posed regarding how ballroom (i.e. International or American) tango evolved from A. tango. My best guess is that some European(s) saw A. tango danced and tried to make it fit the ballroom frame/posture. The ballroom posture, with upper bodies apart and lower bodies together, really prohibits the dancers from doing many of the signature figures of A. tango (e.g. saccadas, paradas, barridas, etc.).
The obvious exceptions are ochos and some ganchos. The ochos work, because the dancers need not break their frame to execute them. In fact they are not unlike swivels in waltz.
Bob
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Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 02:31:37 -0500
From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Front Ochos
Lois wrote <<<< I don't like leading beginning women who have been
"taught" the front ocho. Any other leaders out there have the same
experience?>>>>>
Yes, Lois, I know exactly what you mean. It's an awful feeling when a
follower tries to come around in a forward instead of continuing the
side step of a led ocho cortado. In the social styles of the dance, I
feel that it's much better to learn the forward at a much later time
than the cortado. But a question comes to mind; is half of a forward
ocho stilled called an ocho? That's all I ever lead. Should we call it a
"zero"? Or maybe a "U";-).
Michael Figart II
Houston, TX
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2006 7:24 AM
To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: [TANGO-L] Front Ochos
I have tried to figure out how ballroom tango came out of the tango from
Argentina. They are so different! One place they can be similar is in
the front
ocho done badly. In ballroom they are called Fans. The man steps back on
his
left, twisting to his right to invite the lady to step to his right
side. The
woman steps forward on her right, "fanning" her left leg. Big pivot, she
steps
across with her left, then readjusts in front of him for the
"tan-go-close". It
looks as if someone peeked into a Buenos Aires dance hall, saw some
tango, then
went back to their home country and tried to do what they remembered
seeing.
Few men in ballroom have enough twist in their bodies to lead this well,
but it
doesn't matter. The woman knows her part. This is where the two types of
tangos
part company (I hope). In A. tango, if the leader doesn't get his chest
moving,
the follower shouldn't go. If she does (ocho machine) she should stick
to
ballroom.
I don't like leading beginning women who have been "taught" the front
ocho. Any
other leaders out there have the same experience?
Lois
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Discussion of Any Aspect of the Argentine Tango
> [mailto:TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU] On Behalf Of astrid
> Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 8:08 PM
> To: TANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
> Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] the sandwich
>
>
> I get some students who come to me with the front ocho -
> either from a video or another teacher, and I tell them not
> to do it. This doesn't make them happy, because they paid for
> it and it's so easy to do. But it's not tango. It's ballroom.
>
> Ballroom? With all respect, Lois, but this is ridiculous.
>
> Astrid
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 09:08:47 -0400
From: Barbara <varvarak@POBOX.UPENN.EDU>
Subject: Re: front ochos
WARNING: what follows is a *very sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek,
not-to-be-taken-literally* message!
for Lois and all other poor souls out there in need of enlightenment
about the real roots of tango, check out the priceless info provided to
us courtesy of ABC:
https://abc.go.com/primetime/dancing/tango.html
my favorite quote:
"since the gaucho hadn't showered, the lady would dance in the crook of
the man's right arm, holding her head back"
just priceless!
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 13:56:01 +0000
From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: front ochos
Apropos the gauchos, portenos and portenitas of yore: those happy souls, analphabets and illiterates all, must have a ball up there getting to know about the learned discussions on Tango grammar and muscle activation instructions on Tango-L....
Lucia ;->
Barbara <varvarak@POBOX.UPENN.EDU> escribis: WARNING: what follows is a *very sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek,
not-to-be-taken-literally* message!
for Lois and all other poor souls out there in need of enlightenment
about the real roots of tango, check out the priceless info provided to
us courtesy of ABC:
https://abc.go.com/primetime/dancing/tango.html
my favorite quote:
"since the gaucho hadn't showered, the lady would dance in the crook of
the man's right arm, holding her head back"
just priceless!
Correo Yahoo!
Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam !gratis!
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 10:10:01 EDT
From: Richard deSousa <Mallpasso@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: front ochos
I hope not!! The tango perfomed in "Dancing with the Stars" is ballroom
tango!!
El Bandido de Tango
In a message dated 4/12/2006 06:09:25 Pacific Daylight Time,
varvarak@POBOX.UPENN.EDU writes:
WARNING: what follows is a *very sarcastic, tongue-in-cheek,
not-to-be-taken-literally* message!
for Lois and all other poor souls out there in need of enlightenment
about the real roots of tango, check out the priceless info provided to
us courtesy of ABC:
https://abc.go.com/primetime/dancing/tango.html
my favorite quote:
"since the gaucho hadn't showered, the lady would dance in the crook of
the man's right arm, holding her head back"
just priceless!
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 11:31:09 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: front ochos
It's really OK Lucia, since they are analphabet (thusly illiterate), they
probbaly wont have any idea whatsoever about what goes on on the tango-l and
other forums ;-)
Manuel
BTW, it's refreshing to read postings in English by non-native English
speakers. We do tend to use more colorful, albeit rarely used words :)
>From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
>Apropos the gauchos, portenos and portenitas of yore: those happy souls,
>analphabets and illiterates all, must have a ball up there getting to know
>about the learned discussions on Tango grammar and muscle activation
>instructions on Tango-L....
>
> Lucia ;->
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2006 16:00:06 +0000
From: Lucia <curvasreales@YAHOO.COM.AR>
Subject: Re: front ochos
Hi White Knight,
Thanks for coming to my rescue...
In my book an analphabet is a person who cannot read/write. An illiterate has both this meaning, but also a different one: although a person may have rudimentary reading/writing skills, he/she is lacking culture, especially in the fine points of grammar, and obviously in the Tango decomposition and analysis ...
I also said that they are !getting to know! about the funny postings on Tango-L, assumedly someone reads out to them - Heaven being, I hope, a full-services place...
Lucia ;->
WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com> escribis: It's really OK Lucia, since they are analphabet (thusly illiterate), they
probbaly wont have any idea whatsoever about what goes on on the tango-l and
other forums ;-)
Manuel
BTW, it's refreshing to read postings in English by non-native English
speakers. We do tend to use more colorful, albeit rarely used words :)
>From: Lucia
>Apropos the gauchos, portenos and portenitas of yore: those happy souls,
>analphabets and illiterates all, must have a ball up there getting to know
>about the learned discussions on Tango grammar and muscle activation
>instructions on Tango-L....
>
> Lucia ;->
Correo Yahoo!
Espacio para todos tus mensajes, antivirus y antispam !gratis!
Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2006 16:14:00 -0400
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading front ochos in close embrace
To: "Tango L" <Tango-L@Mit.Edu>
Cc: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Leading front ochos in close embrace IF the man knows how to move. This is one of the few occasions he is moving backwards. The person moving backwards has to get out of the way of the person coming forward. When leading the woman to step backward, he has to lead the woman to get out of his way. When he moves backward, he has to get himself out of the way so that the woman can come forward. This isn't a posture problem; this is a movement problem.
Men should go to a followers class or follow at a practica. It might open their eyes. It certainly opened mine. I'll never forget the day a woman led me in back ochos. She stepped sideways without waiting for me to finish my pivot to come the other direction. That's the day I understood what my teacher had been telling me for months and clearly didn't understand "WAIT FOR THE WOMAN!!" Following taught me how to move backwards. Men who don't learn how to move backwards are like cars that don't have a reverse gear.
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Teaching a workshop next week comparing dancing to public speaking
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 00:32 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading front ochos in close embrace
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
This debate really does remind one why some here advise beginners not to
read this list.
Take for example this total nonsense about ochos:
> Leading front ochos in close embrace IF the man knows how to move.
> This is one of the few occasions he is moving backwards. The person
> moving backwards has to get out of the way of the person coming
> forward.
In no way does a woman's front ocho necessitate the man to move
backwards, or to travel at all. The man may move backwards,
side-to-side, stay put or even move forward.
The only front ocho that necessitates the man to move backward is a
class teacher's textbook "front ocho" which, in the interests of being
"easy-to-learn" (for which read easy-to-fake-teach), has been /defined/
to require the man to move backward.
> This isn't a posture problem; this is a movement problem.
And there's just the kind fallacy that such fakery generates.
Guys, try leading a forward ocho without travelling and you will
discover it is ALL about posture, presence, centeredness and
groundedness. Next to nothing about movement.
Do you recall the pitch hereabouts: "To dance tango you first must learn
how to move"? Thing is, there are an infinite number of ways to move.
And almost as many teachers who'd love you to pay them for workshops
covering each and every one of them individually. Plus the videos too.
The truth is much simpler. To dance tango, you must first learn how to
be still. There are very few ways to be still, but from them unfold all
the infinite ways to move
For free.
Chris
Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 06:53:03 -0400
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading front ochos in close embrace
Cc: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Chris wrote about front ochos:
"In no way does a woman's front ocho necessitate the man to move backwards, or to travel at all. The man may move backwards,
side-to-side, stay put or even move forward."
The man may stay put while the woman does front ochos. HMM. That must mean he uses his arms to pull and push the woman through the ochos. He can't keep his chest in front of the woman if he doesn't move while the woman does. Next, the man moves forward while the woman does forward ochos. That can only mean her front ocho is an overturned front ocho. I don't understand why Chris wants to make his partner work so hard.
"The only front ocho that necessitates the man to move backward is a class teacher's textbook "front ocho" which, in the interests of being "easy-to-learn" (for which read easy-to-fake-teach), has been /defined/ to require the man to move backward."
Consideration of others on the dance floor requires that the couple move and not hold up the line of dance. There are rude dancers who think for the price of admission they bought the entire dance floor and can do whatever they want, e.g. high boleos stationary front ochos, etc.
"Guys, try leading a forward ocho without travelling and you will discover it is ALL about posture, presence, centeredness and
groundedness. Next to nothing about movement."
This is a contradiction. The man can't stay centered if the woman is doing front ochos.
"Do you recall the pitch hereabouts: "To dance tango you first must learn
how to move"? Thing is, there are an infinite number of ways to move.
And almost as many teachers who'd love you to pay them for workshops
covering each and every one of them individually. Plus the videos too."
The quote of knowing how to move came from Daniel Trenner. Do you know more than Daniel Trenner?
"For free."
Yes, and I know how valuable your free advice is worth.
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Sorry it took so long to respond
Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 10:23:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading front ochos in close embrace
Cc: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
You most certainly can lead a forward ocho in "close embrace". And you most certainly don't have to use your arms, fingers, or hands.
Google for an image of Susana Miller, and you will see that, if you take the term "apilado" seriously, there is plenty of room for the woman to step across herself in front of the man. If her center moves only as far as the man's center, her step will be a small one, and the man will not have to move his feet. The process could be repeated, but, why?
My experience is that plenty of women dance "close embrace" by standing really close to the man, but don't share enough weight to feel the lead that comes from the joined torsos when enough weight is shared.
At that point I guess arms, hands, and fingers may be considered an option.
Isn't there a cliche about how many people it takes to do tango?
Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net> wrote:
Chris wrote about front ochos:
"In no way does a woman's front ocho necessitate the man to move backwards, or to travel at all. The man may move backwards,
side-to-side, stay put or even move forward."
The man may stay put while the woman does front ochos. HMM. That must mean he uses his arms to pull and push the woman through the ochos. He can't keep his chest in front of the woman if he doesn't move while the woman does. Next, the man moves forward while the woman does forward ochos. That can only mean her front ocho is an overturned front ocho. I don't understand why Chris wants to make his partner work so hard.
"The only front ocho that necessitates the man to move backward is a class teacher's textbook "front ocho" which, in the interests of being "easy-to-learn" (for which read easy-to-fake-teach), has been /defined/ to require the man to move backward."
Consideration of others on the dance floor requires that the couple move and not hold up the line of dance. There are rude dancers who think for the price of admission they bought the entire dance floor and can do whatever they want, e.g. high boleos stationary front ochos, etc.
"Guys, try leading a forward ocho without travelling and you will discover it is ALL about posture, presence, centeredness and
groundedness. Next to nothing about movement."
This is a contradiction. The man can't stay centered if the woman is doing front ochos.
"Do you recall the pitch hereabouts: "To dance tango you first must learn
how to move"? Thing is, there are an infinite number of ways to move.
And almost as many teachers who'd love you to pay them for workshops
covering each and every one of them individually. Plus the videos too."
The quote of knowing how to move came from Daniel Trenner. Do you know more than Daniel Trenner?
"For free."
Yes, and I know how valuable your free advice is worth.
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Sorry it took so long to respond
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