5022 Fwd: Women's technique
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 14:43:59 -0700
From: L <casadepractica@pacbell.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] Fwd: Women's technique
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Also check out Follower's Technique by Luiza Paes under videos & dvds
at https://www.pulpostango.com.ar/
Begin forwarded message:
> From: flame@2xtreme.net
> Date: July 12, 2007 2:36:01 PM PDT
> To: tango-l@mit.edu
> Subject: [Tango-L] Women's technique
>
> Have you looked at Jennifer Bratt's BewitchingBlackLotus tutorials on
> YouTube?
>
> https://www.youtube.com/user/BewitchingBlackLotus
>
> hi,
> does anyone know of any good videos that teach women?s technique? i
> have
> my doubts but am hopeful that there might be something. thanks for
> any
> pointers.
>
> cheers
>
> Laura
>
> Watch TaiChiDancers YouTube videos:
> https://youtube.com/watch?v=1dFKKw9V5zc
> https://youtube.com/watch?v=ydMv17AsMJo
> and more...
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 14:52:54 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Fwd: Women's technique
To: <swingn82thebar@yahoo.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Florencia Taccetti video from the Trenners catalog.
It might be gone, not on sale any more.
Find a copy.
https://video.google.com/videoplay?docidG24245439307883141&q=robert%20hauk
Igor Polk
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 15:02:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Diane Hillbrant <diane_hillbrant@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fwd: Women's technique
To: Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>, swingn82thebar@yahoo.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Florencia's videos are available at:
www.bridgetothetango.com
--- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
> Florencia Taccetti video from the Trenners catalog.
> It might be gone, not on sale any more.
> Find a copy.
>
>
https://video.google.com/videoplay?docidG24245439307883141&q=robert%20hauk
>
>
> Igor Polk
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2007 18:17:56 -0500
From: "burak ozkosem" <buraktango@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fwd: Women's technique
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<35ba58f10707121617k2c3a0c96s2c436557c9b5a3b@mail.gmail.com>
Teaching Methodology for Women's technique has been presented by many
Argentine dancers in two major pathways depending on their background. i.e.
Folk dance background or Modern dance background. Most of the time these
backgrounds produce very different concepts about the technique for women.
For me, Follower's technique requires activation via interaction with the
leader, and this determines whether her technique is nice or not. If any
tanguera has good technique they should look great whoever she dances with,
if not she will be depending particular partner to look good. No matter how
someone walks gracefully, when she is in her partner's arms, the real time
experiment begins for both of them.
Like any other culture, Argentine Tango is evolving and the gender issues
started have deeper impact on women's technique. New generation Argentine
teachers are not coming from folk dance background mainly as used to be.
Another variable is body structure of the female dancer who teach follower's
technique..(For instance, having short legs or long legs causes huge
separation between the concepts)
I'm sure that many other elements play role to define what concept is better
for someone.However, my suggestion for women is to find most suitable and
comfortable concept for your own body mechanics, not just some teacher says
that you have to do the way she does.
My favorite women's technique teachers who has amazing women technique
concepts have totally different concepts.
Such as Geraldine Rojas-Paludi, Mariana Montes, Nancy Louzan, Claudia
Codega, Melina Bruffman, Celine Ruiz
I hope this helps
Burak
Chicago
www.tangoeclectique.com
On 7/12/07, Diane Hillbrant <diane_hillbrant@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> Florencia's videos are available at:
>
> www.bridgetothetango.com
>
> --- Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> wrote:
>
> > Florencia Taccetti video from the Trenners catalog.
> > It might be gone, not on sale any more.
> > Find a copy.
> >
> >
>
> https://video.google.com/videoplay?docidG24245439307883141&q=robert%20hauk
> >
> >
> > Igor Polk
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 01:24 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fwd: Women's technique
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Burak wrote
> Follower's technique requires activation via interaction with the
> leader, and this determines whether her technique is nice or not.
Well said. A girl's technique gains more from each minute of dancing with
a good enough guy than from each hour of practicing ochos with a wall.
It's really sad to see how much time, enthusiasm and money is wasted in
women's technique workshops.
--
Chris
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 04:05:34 EDT
From: JFPaloma@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fwd: Women's technique
To: diane_hillbrant@yahoo.com, ipolk@virtuar.com,
swingn82thebar@yahoo.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Also available at _www.bridgetothetango_ (https://www.bridgetothetango) is
Fernanda Ghi & Guillermo Merlo's Follower's Technique.
Impeccable technique from master teachers.
https://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 10:00:22 +0100
From: Bruce Stephens <bruce@cenderis.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fwd: Women's technique
"Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> writes:
> Burak wrote
>
>> Follower's technique requires activation via interaction with the
>> leader, and this determines whether her technique is nice or not.
>
> Well said. A girl's technique gains more from each minute of dancing with
> a good enough guy [...]
So, first find a good enough guy...
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 12:05:03 +0200
From: "Peter Turowski" <tangopeter@gmx.de>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fwd: Women's technique
>>> Follower's technique requires activation via interaction with the
>>> leader, and this determines whether her technique is nice or not.
>>
>> Well said. A girl's technique gains more from each minute of dancing
>> with a good enough guy [...]
>
> So, first find a good enough guy...
I'll try a definition of a good enough guy:
A bad dancer tries to impress the follower showing how great HE is
A good dancer lets her feel how amazing SHE can dance.
But this reminds me somehow of two eurythmics songs,
something with sisters and man needed or so...
Regards
Peter
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2007 07:09:05 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fwd: Women's technique
Actually, a women's technique can improve with
inexperienced dancers if she consciously works at it. The
problem with dancing with only good dancers is that the
good dancers end up compensating for her and she never
learns what she needs to work on. BTW, I prefer the word
"inexperienced" to "bad" because I find the latter to be
more of an attitude than dance ability.
For example, I would consciously work on my grounding with
a really big guy that would tend to pull women off axis a
lot. (He had problems processing information from an
accident, so there was some tolerance.) When I danced with
him, I refused to let him do that to me. I got my grouding
practice in and he got to work on his listening skills.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Peter Turowski <tangopeter@gmx.de> wrote:
> >>> Follower's technique requires activation via
> interaction with the
> >>> leader, and this determines whether her technique is
> nice or not.
> >>
> >> Well said. A girl's technique gains more from each
> minute of dancing
> >> with a good enough guy [...]
> >
> > So, first find a good enough guy...
>
> I'll try a definition of a good enough guy:
> A bad dancer tries to impress the follower showing how
> great HE is
> A good dancer lets her feel how amazing SHE can dance.
>
> But this reminds me somehow of two eurythmics songs,
> something with sisters and man needed or so...
>
> Regards
> Peter
>
>
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 20:17 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fwd: Women's technique
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> The problem with dancing with only good dancers is that
> ... she never learns what she needs to work on.
What she never learns is stuff needed only for partnering bad dancers.
That's a problem for the teachers selling it, but for the girl?
Not at all. Because, as you said, she only dances only with good dancers.
Where, incidentally, she can naturally learn all she needs to become as
good herself.
> women's technique can improve with inexperienced dancers if
> she consciously works at it.
Quite why any girl feels she should "consciously work at it", goodness
only knows. That's the guy's job. The girl's job is to have a good time.
No guy who respects girls would have it otherwise.
> I would consciously work on my grounding with a really big
> guy that would tend to pull women off axis a lot.
Amazing. Tell me, Trini: do you also recommend bad sex for practice?
Chris
On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 07:09:05 -0700 (PDT), "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)"
<patangos@yahoo.com> said:
> Actually, a women's technique can improve with
> inexperienced dancers if she consciously works at it. The
> problem with dancing with only good dancers is that the
> good dancers end up compensating for her and she never
> learns what she needs to work on. BTW, I prefer the word
> "inexperienced" to "bad" because I find the latter to be
> more of an attitude than dance ability.
>
> For example, I would consciously work on my grounding with
> a really big guy that would tend to pull women off axis a
> lot. (He had problems processing information from an
> accident, so there was some tolerance.) When I danced with
> him, I refused to let him do that to me. I got my grouding
> practice in and he got to work on his listening skills.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>
> --- Peter Turowski <tangopeter@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> > >>> Follower's technique requires activation via
> > interaction with the
> > >>> leader, and this determines whether her technique is
> > nice or not.
> > >>
> > >> Well said. A girl's technique gains more from each
> > minute of dancing
> > >> with a good enough guy [...]
> > >
> > > So, first find a good enough guy...
> >
> > I'll try a definition of a good enough guy:
> > A bad dancer tries to impress the follower showing how
> > great HE is
> > A good dancer lets her feel how amazing SHE can dance.
> >
> > But this reminds me somehow of two eurythmics songs,
> > something with sisters and man needed or so...
> >
> > Regards
> > Peter
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
________
> Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user
> panel and lay it on us.
>
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 15:28:09 -0400
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Fwd: Women's technique
To: tango-l@mit.edu
>I would consciously work on my grounding with a really big guy that would
>tend to pull women off axis a lot.
Amazing. Tell me, Trini: do you also recommend bad sex for practice?
Chris
I had to laugh, Chris, that was actually funny but seriously though, Trini
has a point. A minority of leaders at milongas are very good, the rest of
them are "inexperienced" or just haven't gotten advanced yet. In which case,
we could ignore them and sit all night or dance with them and work harder at
maintaining our balance and axis while they get practice. If we don't do
that, then we look like fools on the floor not to mention very ungraceful.
It's not as though milongas in North America are big enough that we can
choose to dance only with the best leaders at all times. So, we make do.
Upgrade to Windows Live Hotmail for free today!
www.newhotmail.ca?icid=WLHMENCA151
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 12:57:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fwd: Women's technique
To: Caroline Polack <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Cc: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>
--- Caroline Polack <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
wrote:
> we could ignore them and sit all night or dance with
> them and work harder at
> maintaining our balance and axis while they get
> practice. If we don't do
> that, then we look like fools on the floor not to
> mention very ungraceful.
On the other hand.....if Trini accepts a dance with
big, off-balance guy and compensates for his lack of
skills, then he goes bouncing off the dancefloor,
very proud of the fact that he danced so beautifully
with "the best follower" in the room and it is the
rest of us who are bad followers. What is his
incentive to get better? Sorry, but we have too many
of those guys on the dance floors and on Tango-L
already. I can agree to be ' more grounded' as long
as it is no different than how I would dance with a
good leader. If he is pushing and pulling, I take my
hand away. He understands that. Even the rankest
beginner should not be pulling me off axis. If he is
off beat, I can dance to the beat until he gets it.
If he is truly awful, I can suggest we sit down and
watch the dancers.
Several folks have posted here recently about how
unforgiving the portenas are about dancing with
tourists. No, they are not. However, they will not
dance with a bad dancer out of charity....unless, of
course, they are bad followers - and there are plenty
of those in Buenos Aires, too. Some of those couples
even enter the Campeonato Mundial.
<<Rito es la danza en tu vida
y el tango que tu amas
te quema en su llama>>
de: Bailarina de tango
por: Horacio Sanguinetti
Get your own web address.
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 16:37:43 -0400
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fwd: Women's technique
I dont know...it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I could go into a lengthy explanation of that but i think we all know what I
mean. In Buenos Aires, where I have a ton of choices of leaders to choose
from, I would be much more discerning but in North America, when the choices
are so few and there's about 20 great followers per one good leader, the
competion is overwhelming.
So, I do lower my standards a bit and try to make the best of it. The thing
is that intermediate leaders do improve, especially if they're bitten by the
tango bug. If I am friendly with them now, then I've got a much better
chance of dancing with them when they finally become good leaders.
The big question is how can leaders become better dancers if we don't give
them a chance?
It's a very grey muddy area with way too many variables for me to black and
white about this subject.
----Original Message Follows----
From: NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com>
To: Caroline Polack <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fwd: Women's technique
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 15:47:57 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fwd: Women's technique
To: "NANCY" <ningle_2000@yahoo.com>, "Caroline Polack"
<runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Cc: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>
>>From personal experience, this is how a a good follower in BA would
dance (when she has to) with a man she considers a bad lead: About 12
inches away, her left hand grasping his forearm just below the elbow,
looking at his feet to figure out what he's trying to do.
Christopher
On Mon, 16 Jul 2007 12:57:32 -0700 (PDT), "NANCY"
<ningle_2000@yahoo.com> said:
>
> --- Caroline Polack <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > we could ignore them and sit all night or dance with
> > them and work harder at
> > maintaining our balance and axis while they get
> > practice. If we don't do
> > that, then we look like fools on the floor not to
> > mention very ungraceful.
>
> On the other hand.....if Trini accepts a dance with
> big, off-balance guy and compensates for his lack of
> skills, then he goes bouncing off the dancefloor,
> very proud of the fact that he danced so beautifully
> with "the best follower" in the room and it is the
> rest of us who are bad followers. What is his
> incentive to get better? Sorry, but we have too many
> of those guys on the dance floors and on Tango-L
> already. I can agree to be ' more grounded' as long
> as it is no different than how I would dance with a
> good leader. If he is pushing and pulling, I take my
> hand away. He understands that. Even the rankest
> beginner should not be pulling me off axis. If he is
> off beat, I can dance to the beat until he gets it.
> If he is truly awful, I can suggest we sit down and
> watch the dancers.
>
> Several folks have posted here recently about how
> unforgiving the portenas are about dancing with
> tourists. No, they are not. However, they will not
> dance with a bad dancer out of charity....unless, of
> course, they are bad followers - and there are plenty
> of those in Buenos Aires, too. Some of those couples
> even enter the Campeonato Mundial.
>
>
>
> <<Rito es la danza en tu vida
> y el tango que tu amas
> te quema en su llama>>
> de: Bailarina de tango
> por: Horacio Sanguinetti
>
>
>
> Get your own web address.
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 13:53:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: steve pastor <tang0man2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fwd: Women's technique
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Well, Chris, I certainly hope that your opinion is in the distinct minority.
Unfortunely, I'm not sure that is true.
Back in the 40s and 50s Arthur Murray advised his female students
that they were just as responsible for making any dance they accept
a good experience, as were their male partners. So, they needed
to learn certain things.
I have been looking at some West Coast Swing information, and one
of the oldest, prominant teachers organiztions of that dance, which
I find to be very similar in spirit to Argentine Tango, teaches
that WCS is a 50/50 partnership.
Women do not get better by osmosis. Someone has to point out to
them that they should be doing something differently. Whatever you
do for them, they will not learn to do, either for themselves, or for their
partners.
"Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
> The problem with dancing with only good dancers is that
> ... she never learns what she needs to work on.
What she never learns is stuff needed only for partnering bad dancers.
That's a problem for the teachers selling it, but for the girl?
Not at all. Because, as you said, she only dances only with good dancers.
Where, incidentally, she can naturally learn all she needs to become as
good herself.
> women's technique can improve with inexperienced dancers if
> she consciously works at it.
Quite why any girl feels she should "consciously work at it", goodness
only knows. That's the guy's job. The girl's job is to have a good time.
No guy who respects girls would have it otherwise.
> I would consciously work on my grounding with a really big
> guy that would tend to pull women off axis a lot.
Amazing. Tell me, Trini: do you also recommend bad sex for practice?
Chris
On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 07:09:05 -0700 (PDT), "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)"
said:
> Actually, a women's technique can improve with
> inexperienced dancers if she consciously works at it. The
> problem with dancing with only good dancers is that the
> good dancers end up compensating for her and she never
> learns what she needs to work on. BTW, I prefer the word
> "inexperienced" to "bad" because I find the latter to be
> more of an attitude than dance ability.
>
> For example, I would consciously work on my grounding with
> a really big guy that would tend to pull women off axis a
> lot. (He had problems processing information from an
> accident, so there was some tolerance.) When I danced with
> him, I refused to let him do that to me. I got my grouding
> practice in and he got to work on his listening skills.
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>
> --- Peter Turowski wrote:
>
> > >>> Follower's technique requires activation via
> > interaction with the
> > >>> leader, and this determines whether her technique is
> > nice or not.
> > >>
> > >> Well said. A girl's technique gains more from each
> > minute of dancing
> > >> with a good enough guy [...]
> > >
> > > So, first find a good enough guy...
> >
> > I'll try a definition of a good enough guy:
> > A bad dancer tries to impress the follower showing how
> > great HE is
> > A good dancer lets her feel how amazing SHE can dance.
> >
> > But this reminds me somehow of two eurythmics songs,
> > something with sisters and man needed or so...
> >
> > Regards
> > Peter
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
________
> Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user
> panel and lay it on us.
>
Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 13:23:02 +0800
From: Kace <kace@pacific.net.sg>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fwd: Women's technique
Chris, UK wrote:
> "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)"
> <patangos@yahoo.com> said:
>
>> I would consciously work on my grounding with a really big
>> guy that would tend to pull women off axis a lot.
>>
> Amazing. Tell me, Trini: do you also recommend bad sex for practice?
People who like to debunk the need to study and practise the technical
skills in tango often
compare it to making love --- as if sex is completely biological and
instinctive, which it is
not, and the reason why we need experts to study the subject.
Generally followers have a more difficult task than leaders, because
they have to adapt to a
range of movement and musical styles, plus they can only influence the
leader in small ways
but not turn into back-leaders. It is a game of "reaction" not
"action", yet many enjoyable
and demanding games are like that -- fishing, rock climbing, hang
gliding etc.
In our discussions, some people have described following as "surfing a
wave". You can
jump on a big sea wave and hope it is going to give you a big thrill,
but it will take solid
following skill to stay on the sweet spot of that wave, and 200%
concentration to add
embellishment to the ride. Given that the big kahuna appears only
rarely, most of the time
the surfers practise on the smaller, less thrilling ones, but those
efforts are never
considered to be wasted.
Kace
tangosingapore.com
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2007 22:27:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Fwd: Women's technique
To: NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com>, Caroline Polack
<runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Cc: tango-l <tango-l@mit.edu>
Hi Nancy,
Your assessment might be correct if I allowed myself to be
improperly danced with. But that is not the case, and my
partner knew it.
But it was well before I became a teacher that I made a
point of practicing things like balance and sensitivity
with the inexperienced men. So with guys who tended to use
their arms, I moved faster so that they couldn't use their
arms (sorta' like beating them to the punch). For guys who
bounced, I worked on being smoother instead (I danced open
at that time). It turned out that some of the guys picked
up on what their own problems were as my own problems
disappeared.
That's how I learned to become a much better follower.
Trini de Pittsburgh
P.S. Since I pretty much dance with everyone at some point
(I am a teacher and community-builder after all), I use
other devices to signal to guys how well they are doing,
such as in what music I choose to dance with them, whether
I stall until song #3 in a tanda, or how I react after a
tanda. So for them, it's not a question of getting a dance
but getting good reaction versus a polite "Thank You".
--- NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- Caroline Polack <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > we could ignore them and sit all night or dance with
> > them and work harder at
> > maintaining our balance and axis while they get
> > practice. If we don't do
> > that, then we look like fools on the floor not to
> > mention very ungraceful.
>
> On the other hand.....if Trini accepts a dance with
> big, off-balance guy and compensates for his lack of
> skills, then he goes bouncing off the dancefloor,
> very proud of the fact that he danced so beautifully
> with "the best follower" in the room and it is the
> rest of us who are bad followers. What is his
> incentive to get better? Sorry, but we have too many
> of those guys on the dance floors and on Tango-L
> already. I can agree to be ' more grounded' as long
> as it is no different than how I would dance with a
> good leader. If he is pushing and pulling, I take my
> hand away. He understands that. Even the rankest
> beginner should not be pulling me off axis. If he is
> off beat, I can dance to the beat until he gets it.
> If he is truly awful, I can suggest we sit down and
> watch the dancers.
>
> Several folks have posted here recently about how
> unforgiving the portenas are about dancing with
> tourists. No, they are not. However, they will not
> dance with a bad dancer out of charity....unless, of
> course, they are bad followers - and there are plenty
> of those in Buenos Aires, too. Some of those couples
> even enter the Campeonato Mundial.
>
>
>
> <<Rito es la danza en tu vida
> y el tango que tu amas
> te quema en su llama>>
> de: Bailarina de tango
> por: Horacio Sanguinetti
>
>
>
>
> Get your own web address.
>
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