4119 Grammar and tango - exploring the analogy
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 17:57:48 +0000
From: Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Grammar and tango - exploring the analogy
I think this analogy has the potential to facliitate a deepening of our
understanding of tango. Daniel Trenner was here in Portland last weekend
and, while he briefly mentioned the grammer of tango, he mostly spoke of the
"elements" of tango, by which he seemed to mean the character of the steps
themselves, that is, the way that weight is transferred, the place on the
foot where the weight is centered, and the various options for how the
newly-free foot/leg is collected and moved into position to initiate the
next step. But he didn't get any deeper into the analogy of the grammer.
I've heard forever that Tango is a conversation. By that I understood that
each person "speaks" some word or phrase or gesture, then the other person
"answers" with their own word/phrase/gesture. Feelings and emotions would
seem to be the content that is communicated in tango. (And as sort of an
aside, as so often happens in real life, in tango both people tend to be
speaking at the same time.)
So to develop the analogy, it's easy to see that the "vocabulary" is the
steps themselves, or the adornments, or even the body language or changes in
the embrace (an extra little squeeze, perhaps), but each "word," I propose,
needs to be a movement of some kind.
So what exactly is grammer? In spoken/written language, my loose impression
is that it is the "rules" by which vocabulary elements are connected into
"sentences", in order, as has been pointed out, to guarantee that meaning is
transmitted.
So what are the rules in tango that constitute its grammer?
The only thing that immediately comes to my mind would be a rule that says
to dance as smoothly as possible, ie don't make rapid changes from one
"word" to the next.
Other thoughts/ideas?
J
www.TangoMoments.com
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 12:37:22 -0700
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Grammar and tango - exploring the analogy
Dear Jay:
The only thing that immediately comes to my mind would
be a rule that says to dance as smoothly as possible,
ie don't make rapid changes from one
"word" to the next.
Other thoughts/ideas?
Hopefully both dancers are listening to the same
music....lol. If the music calls for a rapid change,
then both partners should learn to expect a rapid
change, right? (ie: when a slow tango suddenly
changes into a rapid milonga, like in the Color Tango
CD's on some tracks). Music drives the dance. If
people are asleep at the wheel that is not a good
thing...lol.
My opinion.
Derik
--- Jay Rabe <jayrabe@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> I think this analogy has the potential to facliitate
> a deepening of our
> understanding of tango. Daniel Trenner was here in
> Portland last weekend
> and, while he briefly mentioned the grammer of
> tango, he mostly spoke of the
> "elements" of tango, by which he seemed to mean the
> character of the steps
> themselves, that is, the way that weight is
> transferred, the place on the
> foot where the weight is centered, and the various
> options for how the
> newly-free foot/leg is collected and moved into
> position to initiate the
> next step. But he didn't get any deeper into the
> analogy of the grammer.
>
> I've heard forever that Tango is a conversation. By
> that I understood that
> each person "speaks" some word or phrase or gesture,
> then the other person
> "answers" with their own word/phrase/gesture.
> Feelings and emotions would
> seem to be the content that is communicated in
> tango. (And as sort of an
> aside, as so often happens in real life, in tango
> both people tend to be
> speaking at the same time.)
>
> So to develop the analogy, it's easy to see that the
> "vocabulary" is the
> steps themselves, or the adornments, or even the
> body language or changes in
> the embrace (an extra little squeeze, perhaps), but
> each "word," I propose,
> needs to be a movement of some kind.
>
> So what exactly is grammer? In spoken/written
> language, my loose impression
> is that it is the "rules" by which vocabulary
> elements are connected into
> "sentences", in order, as has been pointed out, to
> guarantee that meaning is
> transmitted.
>
> So what are the rules in tango that constitute its
> grammer?
>
> The only thing that immediately comes to my mind
> would be a rule that says
> to dance as smoothly as possible, ie don't make
> rapid changes from one
> "word" to the next.
>
> Other thoughts/ideas?
>
> J
> www.TangoMoments.com
>
>
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 13:31:23 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Grammar and tango - exploring the analogy
There is grammar of tango and there are grammar-s of individual schools of
tango.
This things are different.
Analogy between dance and language is not quite straightforward.
With our experience as moving beings we are given a wide variety of body
abilities which we expand significantly with our dance experience. It is
possible to express it and understand it on much wider scale between two
people than when two people speaking different languages can communicate
with their international words and gestures.
Assuming that grammar is what puts elements together in "sentences",
there is much more meaning in tango elements than in sequences. Then tango
grammar is much less important than a language grammar. Grammar is that
essentially distinguishes between each individual school: each "master"
should have his own figures, each school has its own grammar and uses its
own set of elements more suitable for that grammar.
But it goes much farther.
One of the most important methods of dance is "surprise". We can surprise
our partner with something new, and that makes the dance very interesting. I
am trying to surprise on every step. Most often it is not a word or
sentence, it is a new element, even micro-element, new way of making an
element, those that you mentioned, Jay.
Then the analogy with language is totally wrong! We can not "surprise" our
companion with new sound or a word - that will not be understood - it moves
away from the purpose of conversation. In conversation we tend to find the
sounds and words we both understand to express meaning, sense, humor.
Letters, words, grammar are just tools.
It leads me to the thought that tango elements, moves, figures should not be
associated with syntax and grammar of a language. Syntax and grammar are
external to human. They are attributes of a language - a system to transform
meaning with our limited means of communication. Dancing elements are the
direct expression of meaning, the main purpose of a language. It is called
semantics.
That is why we say that in the dance we "talk without words" - we bypass
constraints put by nature on our means of communication and speak directly
to the soul!
Tango moves, most elementary things, are not letters, words, or sentences.
They are much more! They are the whole purpose of our dancing conversations.
They are meaning themselves.
The elements become "semantic elements", and grammar - "semantic net". Here
we came back to the beginning, but on much higher lever of abstraction:
nobody knows for sure the theory of that, yet how it works in our brains.
Welcome to a new world!
Igor Polk
All that is of course arguable. Just a line of thoughts, encouraged by Jay's
letter.
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 21:49:09 +0100
From: Dani Iannarelli <dani@TANGO-LA-DOLCE-VITA.COM>
Subject: Re: Grammar and tango - exploring the analogy
For God's sake!!! YOU'RE ALL MAD!!!
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 16:50:50 EDT
From: Bill King <Euroking@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Grammar and tango - exploring the analogy
Igor,
Nicely put, it expands on my thoughts on the analogy, language and Tango are
not the same. If we are trying to analogize language with Tango, and
therefore grammar with rules, I think we are off base. Grammar is a system of
language. It reflects “rules”, for want of a better term, for a particular
language at a particular point of time. Grammar set’s a standard, a standard that
if enough people violate it the standard changes. Language is constantly
evolving. Likewise Tango, based on improvisation, is also evolving. The old
school wishes to keep Tango “pure” or in other words like it was danced in the
first half of the last century (that was interesting to say). The Nuevo
group wishes to change and make it more innovative and active. The result is that
Tango evolves along a continuum. It is not stagnant. The ‘rules Change”,
grammar changes.
One does not need grammar to learn a language, and grammar varies from
language to language, as well as time to time. You should use it as a guide, a
reference when lost; it can help in learning, but is a “book you should never
read cover to cover.” Learning is best done by doing. Remember grammar
creates patterns; a slave to patterns robs you of the richness of the language or
Tango.
Just some thoughts,
Bill in seattle.
In a message dated 4/7/2006 1:31:22 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM writes:
There is grammar of tango and there are grammar-s of individual schools of
tango.
This things are different.
Analogy between dance and language is not quite straightforward.
With our experience as moving beings we are given a wide variety of body
abilities which we expand significantly with our dance experience. It is
possible to express it and understand it on much wider scale between two
people than when two people speaking different languages can communicate
with their international words and gestures.
Assuming that grammar is what puts elements together in "sentences",
there is much more meaning in tango elements than in sequences. Then tango
grammar is much less important than a language grammar. Grammar is that
essentially distinguishes between each individual school: each "master"
should have his own figures, each school has its own grammar and uses its
own set of elements more suitable for that grammar.
But it goes much farther.
One of the most important methods of dance is "surprise". We can surprise
our partner with something new, and that makes the dance very interesting. I
am trying to surprise on every step. Most often it is not a word or
sentence, it is a new element, even micro-element, new way of making an
element, those that you mentioned, Jay.
Then the analogy with language is totally wrong! We can not "surprise" our
companion with new sound or a word - that will not be understood - it moves
away from the purpose of conversation. In conversation we tend to find the
sounds and words we both understand to express meaning, sense, humor.
Letters, words, grammar are just tools.
It leads me to the thought that tango elements, moves, figures should not be
associated with syntax and grammar of a language. Syntax and grammar are
external to human. They are attributes of a language - a system to transform
meaning with our limited means of communication. Dancing elements are the
direct expression of meaning, the main purpose of a language. It is called
semantics.
That is why we say that in the dance we "talk without words" - we bypass
constraints put by nature on our means of communication and speak directly
to the soul!
Tango moves, most elementary things, are not letters, words, or sentences.
They are much more! They are the whole purpose of our dancing conversations.
They are meaning themselves.
The elements become "semantic elements", and grammar - "semantic net". Here
we came back to the beginning, but on much higher lever of abstraction:
nobody knows for sure the theory of that, yet how it works in our brains.
Welcome to a new world!
Igor Polk
All that is of course arguable. Just a line of thoughts, encouraged by Jay's
letter.
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 14:45:41 -0700
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: Grammar and tango - exploring the analogy
> For God's sake!!! YOU'RE ALL MAD!!!
Thanks! What else could it be with our limited means of communication :)
I'd rather be dancing too!
Igor.
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2006 18:01:33 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Grammar and tango - exploring the analogy
>For God's sake!!! YOU'RE ALL MAD!!!
It's OK Dani, don't worry. The forum has been quiet lately and the people
are restless ;-)..... It's just another topic for discussion. You gotta
admit it, they got your attention LOL
Manuel
