5203 Help to find masculinity in Tango !
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 10:33:33 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Help to find masculinity in Tango !
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
I was told that many men trying tango drop it because they think "tango is
too feminine".
Some of my friends actually think that tango is very masculine, strong.
I believe these men who dropped could be the best tango dancers and WE NEED
GOOD MEN IN TANGO !
DESPERATELLY !!!!
Please, help to find ways to uncover masculine part of tango to potential
great leaders !
Igor Polk
PS I understand there is a theory that tango helps to discover feminine part
in men and men's part in women. But that is not what I need. I need the
theory to present musucline attractiveness of tango to men.
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 14:27:37 -0400
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Help to find masculinity in Tango !
To: Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Igor,
for "feminine" substitute "intimate".
Then it all makes sense.
Igor Polk wrote:
> I was told that many men trying tango drop it because they think "tango is
> too feminine".
>
> Some of my friends actually think that tango is very masculine, strong.
>
> I believe these men who dropped could be the best tango dancers and WE NEED
> GOOD MEN IN TANGO !
>
> DESPERATELLY !!!!
>
> Please, help to find ways to uncover masculine part of tango to potential
> great leaders !
>
>
> Igor Polk
> PS I understand there is a theory that tango helps to discover feminine part
> in men and men's part in women. But that is not what I need. I need the
> theory to present musucline attractiveness of tango to men.
>
>
>
>
>
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
https://arborlaw.com
protection ? registration ? liability ? enforcement
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 14:30:39 -0400
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Help to find masculinity in Tango !
To: Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Sorry, hit send before I added my suggestion. How about this:
demonstrating confidence = masculine
better posture = masculine
precise control of body and movement = masculine (ie, martial arts)
CRS
Igor Polk wrote:
> I was told that many men trying tango drop it because they think "tango is
> too feminine".
>
> Some of my friends actually think that tango is very masculine, strong.
>
> I believe these men who dropped could be the best tango dancers and WE NEED
> GOOD MEN IN TANGO !
>
> DESPERATELLY !!!!
>
> Please, help to find ways to uncover masculine part of tango to potential
> great leaders !
>
>
> Igor Polk
> PS I understand there is a theory that tango helps to discover feminine part
> in men and men's part in women. But that is not what I need. I need the
> theory to present musucline attractiveness of tango to men.
>
>
>
>
>
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
https://arborlaw.com
transactions ? technology ? trade secrets ? trademarks
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 14:03:37 -0600
From: "David Hodgson" <DHodgson@TangoLabyrinth.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] FW: Help to find masculinity in Tango !
Hello Igor;
It is true that Tango can help develop the feminine in males and the
masculine in females. Really effectively at that.
For your question it is not that difficult.
My theory;
Leading does not start with the bits that are between ones legs and exists
without the fear of castration.
David.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 11:34 AM
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Subject: [Tango-L] Help to find masculinity in Tango !
I was told that many men trying tango drop it because they think "tango is
too feminine".
Some of my friends actually think that tango is very masculine, strong.
I believe these men who dropped could be the best tango dancers and WE NEED
GOOD MEN IN TANGO !
DESPERATELLY !!!!
Please, help to find ways to uncover masculine part of tango to potential
great leaders !
Igor Polk
PS I understand there is a theory that tango helps to discover feminine part
in men and men's part in women. But that is not what I need. I need the
theory to present musucline attractiveness of tango to men.
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 13:41:06 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] FW: Help to find masculinity in Tango !
Mr. David Hodgson,
I am glad that your tango "really effectively" helped to find feminity in
yourself,
But I am looking for advice how to make tango attractive for men who are
looking for masculinity in Tango.
As for ladies,
I am deeply interested how to teach them be more feminine,
find that feminine power in themselves dancing tango.
Please, help.
Igor Polk
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 16:36:06 -0600
From: "David Hodgson" <DHodgson@TangoLabyrinth.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] FW: FW: Help to find masculinity in Tango !
Igor, your right!
I had to correct the grammar. Always a work in progress.
"Leading does not start with the bits that are between ones legs and Leading
exists without the fear of castration."
As far as teaching the Ladies to be more feminine. Try following for a time,
perhaps 6 months.
The funny thing is, this will help answer the questions you ask on the
masculine and feminine.
As a side note, tango has taught me a lot and continues to do so.
Tango has not taught me a lot about the masculine or feminine, there are
other things that are better teachers for me.
David
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2007 2:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] FW: Help to find masculinity in Tango !
Mr. David Hodgson,
I am glad that your tango "really effectively" helped to find feminity in
yourself,
But I am looking for advice how to make tango attractive for men who are
looking for masculinity in Tango.
As for ladies,
I am deeply interested how to teach them be more feminine,
find that feminine power in themselves dancing tango.
Please, help.
Igor Polk
Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 19:12:14 +0000
From: rockies@comcast.net
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Help to find masculinity in Tango !
To: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
<093020071912.883.46FFF50E0006941C0000037322068246930101009B9D@comcast.net>
-------------- Original message ----------------------
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 13:50:37 -0700
From: <dchester@charter.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Help to find masculinity in Tango !
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Igor,
While I think that your question is quite clear, the answer is not, thus I suspect this is why some of the answers have not been to your liking. The only direct answer I can suggest to your question, is to show people videos of tango, where the man does not look feminine. Then you can say to the people, "See, the man doesn't have to look feminine". However, for me the bottom line is that many of the good male American tango dancers do look feminine at times. This only seems to bother American men though, and not the women.
My wife and I have had some conversations on this subject in the past, as well as the broader topic of why it's hard for people (men in particular) to get into, or stay with tango. In the US (the only place I really know anything about), most of the teachers are female, at least where I live anyways. While for the most part, they are very good dancers, but some of the things they explain (and some of the exercises), are not in the least bit helpful for me. At my very first tango class, we focused on (what I would call), some "touchy feely" types of exercises. Not only did I not get anything at all from them, they actually made me want to leave and never come back. If it weren't for the fact that my wife and I had signed up together for a series of classes, that first class would have been the end of my tango adventure. I now understand what they were trying to teach in that first class, but that doesn't change the fact that not only was it was a complete waste of my ti!
me, but it actually was pure agony. BTW, my wife thought the class was just fine.
: )
Another example from my first class, was when I was first told, "lead from the chest, not from the arms". This might have made some sense to me, if we were in close embrace, but since we were in a practice embrace, (and our chests were not touching, just our arms), of course I had no clue what she was talking about. This forces me to have to make a guess at what they actually mean, and when you are a beginner, the odds of a correct guess are very low. Eventually, another instructor explained to me, the concept of "The Frame", and I was able to understand it (you do use your arms, but together with your chest and shoulders).
Over the past few months, I have taken some workshops from Argentine men, and the philosophy from them seems to be different from what I hear from American women instuctors. In a lot of classes I'll ask questions on how to lead x, y, or z. The difference seems to be (and this is likely an over simplification), American female teachers say, "the lead is an invitation", meaning (to me) the women is free to accept or decline the invitation. However, when I've asked Argentine men on various leads where I'm having a problem, I usually hear something along the lines of, "Be the man", or "Do what you have to do, to get her to follow".
: )
FWIW, I went to my first milonga, maybe 4 - 6 weeks after starting the tango. While I know that I was lousy, people did dance with me, and it made me want to continue. I usually asked people for feedback, and I received lots of helpful suggestions. The things that multiple people commented on, were the things that I focused on. In my opinion, beginners dancing with other beginners, is an extremely slow way of learning the tango. For me, getting out to milongas every couple of weeks and dancing, along with taking an occasional private lesson to get me past things I am stuck on, seemed to work much better for me. Of course, my wife and I continue to take weekly group lessons on various topics.
I think that teachers should find ways to get new dancers (men in particular) to feel like they are making progress, and it is worth their time. Once someone cathes the "tango bug" they might be willing to put up with very slow progress, but not initially. Like it or not, that's they way most men (at least in the US) are. We in the tango community can either complain about it (ie, do nothing), or deal with it and figure out what to do differently, to get a different result. Another way of stating it is, "If you keep doing what you've been doing, you're going to keep getting what you've got".
My two cents (even if it was rather long winded).
David
>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 10:33:33 -0700
>From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
>Subject: [Tango-L] Help to find masculinity in Tango !
>To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
>I was told that many men trying tango drop it because they think "tango is
too feminine".
>Some of my friends actually think that tango is very masculine, strong.
>I believe these men who dropped could be the best tango dancers and WE NEED
GOOD MEN IN TANGO !
>DESPERATELLY !!!!
>Please, help to find ways to uncover masculine part of tango to potential
great leaders !
>Igor Polk
>PS I understand there is a theory that tango helps to discover feminine part
in men and men's part in women. But that is not what I need. I need the
theory to present musucline attractiveness of tango to men.
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 21:18:56 -0400
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Help to find masculinity in Tango !
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Cc: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
----- Original Message -----
From: "Carol Shepherd" <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Help to find masculinity in Tango !
demonstrating confidence = masculine
better posture = masculine
precise control of body and movement = masculine (ie, martial arts)
I don't agree with Carol. A woman should should also exude confidence, posture, and precise control of body and movement. IMHO, the above items are not gender specific.
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 00:53:24 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Help to find masculinity in Tango !
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Michael,
Having disagreed with Carol, could you suggest alternative differences between men and women.
Or do you think that men and women are essentially the same? I suspect this may be the PC view
in the US, but I'd like some confirmation.
Keith, HK
On Tue Oct 2 9:18 , "Michael" sent:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Carol Shepherd" arborlaw@comcast.net>
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Help to find masculinity in Tango !
>
>demonstrating confidence = masculine
>better posture = masculine
>precise control of body and movement = masculine (ie, martial arts)
>I don't agree with Carol. A woman should should also exude confidence, posture, and precise control of body and movement. IMHO, the
above items are not gender specific.
>
>Michael Ditkoff
>Washington, DC
>
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 02:17:51 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Help to find masculinity in Tango !
To: tango-l@mit.edu
David,
That's a very nice post that give a perspective from someone I'd describe as a normal Tango guy who hasn't yet been indoctrinated by a lot
of the mumbo jumbo you read on Tango-L. Like Michael's recent ... "before we can embrace others we have to embrace ourselves." Gimme a
break!
I agree with your observation that ... "many of the good male American tango dancers do look feminine at times". Why is that? Maybe it's
partly explained by your further comment that ... "In the US (the only place I really know anything about), most of the teachers are
female, at least where I live anyways".
Whether or not a woman can teach a man to dance Tango is a discussion we've had before. My view is, yes she can, but the guy may end up
dancing like a girl. A man needs a masculine role-model to learn from, at least until he has learned to dance and has developed his own
style. And I also agree with your comments about the touchy-feely way some women teach. Men usually don't like it.
But your first instructor was right about leading from the chest - even in open embrace. If you're walking forward and the woman is
walking backward, you don't need to push her with your arms. Just project and move the chest forward and the woman will definitely walk
backwards without any pushing. And I can prove this with any female beginner in the very first class. Women are far more sensitive than
men but I'm sure some of the PC American men, like Michael, will object to that.
I'm glad you've taken some lessons with Argentine men and I'd certainly recommend that you continue with that. Even if they can't explain
exactly what to do in technical terms - just watch them closely and you'll at least learn how Tango should look and how it should be
danced.
As for ... "the lead is an invitation". I think this statement is overused and has become distorted. Osvaldo Zotto used the expression but
then he went on to say ... the woman can accept the invitation or she can decline - in which case the game of Tango comes to an end.
I think what ... "the lead is an invitation" really means is that the man leads [or invites] and then he waits for the woman to follow [or
accept]. There's no question of the woman declining the invitation or refusing to follow a lead - other than to avoid a collision perhaps.
Btw, I love the expression ... "be the man". You may not understand it yet, but it should be burned into the brain of every tanguero.
Keith, HK
On Tue Oct 2 4:50 , sent:
>Igor,
>
>While I think that your question is quite clear, the answer is not, thus I suspect this is why some of the answers have not been to your
liking. The only direct answer I can suggest to your question, is to show people videos of tango, where the man does not look feminine.
Then you can say to the people, "See, the man doesn't have to look feminine". However, for me the bottom line is that many of the good
male American tango dancers do look feminine at times. This only seems to bother American men though, and not the women.
>
>My wife and I have had some conversations on this subject in the past, as well as the broader topic of why it's hard for people (men in
particular) to get into, or stay with tango. In the US (the only place I really know anything about), most of the teachers are female, at
least where I live anyways. While for the most part, they are very good dancers, but some of the things they explain (and some of the
exercises), are not in the least bit helpful for me. At my very first tango class, we focused on (what I would call), some "touchy feely"
types of exercises. Not only did I not get anything at all from them, they actually made me want to leave and never come back. If it
weren't for the fact that my wife and I had signed up together for a series of classes, that first class would have been the end of my
tango adventure. I now understand what they were trying to teach in that first class, but that doesn't change the fact that not only was
it was a complete waste of my ti!
> me, but it actually was pure agony. BTW, my wife thought the class was just fine.
>
>: )
>
>Another example from my first class, was when I was first told, "lead from the chest, not from the arms". This might have made some
sense to me, if we were in close embrace, but since we were in a practice embrace, (and our chests were not touching, just our arms), of
course I had no clue what she was talking about. This forces me to have to make a guess at what they actually mean, and when you are a
beginner, the odds of a correct guess are very low. Eventually, another instructor explained to me, the concept of "The Frame", and I was
able to understand it (you do use your arms, but together with your chest and shoulders).
>
>Over the past few months, I have taken some workshops from Argentine men, and the philosophy from them seems to be different from what I
hear from American women instuctors. In a lot of classes I'll ask questions on how to lead x, y, or z. The difference seems to be (and
this is likely an over simplification), American female teachers say, "the lead is an invitation", meaning (to me) the women is free to
accept or decline the invitation. However, when I've asked Argentine men on various leads where I'm having a problem, I usually hear
something along the lines of, "Be the man", or "Do what you have to do, to get her to follow".
>
>: )
>
>
>FWIW, I went to my first milonga, maybe 4 - 6 weeks after starting the tango. While I know that I was lousy, people did dance with me,
and it made me want to continue. I usually asked people for feedback, and I received lots of helpful suggestions. The things that
multiple people commented on, were the things that I focused on. In my opinion, beginners dancing with other beginners, is an extremely
slow way of learning the tango. For me, getting out to milongas every couple of weeks and dancing, along with taking an occasional
private lesson to get me past things I am stuck on, seemed to work much better for me. Of course, my wife and I continue to take weekly
group lessons on various topics.
>
>I think that teachers should find ways to get new dancers (men in particular) to feel like they are making progress, and it is worth
their time. Once someone cathes the "tango bug" they might be willing to put up with very slow progress, but not initially. Like it or
not, that's they way most men (at least in the US) are. We in the tango community can either complain about it (ie, do nothing), or deal
with it and figure out what to do differently, to get a different result. Another way of stating it is, "If you keep doing what you've
been doing, you're going to keep getting what you've got".
>
>My two cents (even if it was rather long winded).
>
>David
>
>
>
>>Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 10:33:33 -0700
>>From: "Igor Polk" ipolk@virtuar.com>
>>Subject: [Tango-L] Help to find masculinity in Tango !
>>To: tango-l@mit.edu>
>
>>I was told that many men trying tango drop it because they think "tango is
>too feminine".
>
>>Some of my friends actually think that tango is very masculine, strong.
>
>>I believe these men who dropped could be the best tango dancers and WE NEED
>GOOD MEN IN TANGO !
>
>>DESPERATELLY !!!!
>
>>Please, help to find ways to uncover masculine part of tango to potential
>great leaders !
>
>
>>Igor Polk
>>PS I understand there is a theory that tango helps to discover feminine part
>in men and men's part in women. But that is not what I need. I need the
>theory to present musucline attractiveness of tango to men.
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 12:44 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Help to find masculinity in Tango !
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
David wrote:
> beginners dancing with other beginners, is an extremely slow way of
> learning the tango.
Slow, or stationary. It's like trying to start a fire by rubbing two
sticks together.
One day I hope to find a teacher who can explain the educational advantage
(if any) of this method.
--
Chris
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 21:31:13 -0400
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Help to find masculinity in Tango !
To: <keith@tangohk.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
Cc: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Keith:
Instead of concentrating on the "how," I suggest concentration on the "what." Perhaps you've heard the expression "The man is the frame. The woman is the painting." A woman can show her femininity when given the opportunity to play, especially if the man gives the woman the chance. I like to lead stepovers. Some women just step over the foot like it's an obstacle on the floor. Others take the opportunity to show off their skill, like sweeping the free foot in a wide arc, leading herself in a boleo and s-l-o-w-l-y stepping over my foot.
I remember very well a class at the New York Tango Festival (the summer version, not this week's version) where Virginia Kelly taught a class in interleading, where the woman takes an opportunity to express herself. She doesn't back lead the man, but stops the man and does what she wants. A confident man will give into the woman's desire. A confident woman is sure her partner will respect her.
A good dancing relationship should be based on mutual respect.
Michael
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
Washington, DC
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 12:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Help to find masculinity in Tango !
Michael,
Having disagreed with Carol, could you suggest alternative differences between men and women.
Or do you think that men and women are essentially the same? I suspect this may be the PC view
in the US, but I'd like some confirmation.
Keith, HK
On Tue Oct 2 9:18 , "Michael" sent:
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Carol Shepherd" arborlaw@comcast.net>
>Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Help to find masculinity in Tango !
>
>demonstrating confidence = masculine
>better posture = masculine
>precise control of body and movement = masculine (ie, martial arts)
>I don't agree with Carol. A woman should should also exude confidence, posture, and precise control of body and movement. IMHO, the
above items are not gender specific.
>
>Michael Ditkoff
>Washington, DC
>
