5640 How many figures do you need?
Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 19:49:22 -0400
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
I enjoyed my vacation in BA even though some tried to tell me what to do. I observed that the Argentines use the following figures:
Back ocho
Low Boleo
Walking
Ocho Cortado
Giros (called molinetes north of the equator)
I've read messages on Tango A about workshops and festivals for colgaldas, valcadas, sacadas and other figures ending in "adas." It made me wonder how many figures do I need for a good dance.
What figures are missing from the above list you feel are necessary?
How frequently are you able to incorporate what you learned from festivals and workshops into your dance?
It's a slow Saturday night and I'm writing as I listen to Garrison Keillor's monologue. Unfortunately, there's no AT in Lake Wobegone, MN,.
Michael
Washington, DC
I danced Argentine Tango - - with the Argentines
Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 19:13:00 -0500
From: Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
<cff24c340905091713p34d14445wf42b47ea5038ebcd@mail.gmail.com>
MIchael,
>>From what I've observed, that's about right.
The low boleo isn't needed, so
- Walking
- Back ocho
- Ocho Cortado
- Giro
will do just fine.
But don't forget a good embrace and good musicality.
Ron
On Sat, May 9, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net> wrote:
> I enjoyed my vacation in BA even though some tried to tell me what to do. I observed that the Argentines use the following figures:
>
> Back ocho
> Low Boleo
> Walking
> Ocho Cortado
> Giros (called molinetes north of the equator)
>
> I've read messages on Tango A about workshops and festivals for colgaldas, valcadas, sacadas and other figures ending in "adas." It made me wonder how many figures do I need for a good dance.
>
> What figures are missing from the above list you feel are necessary?
>
> How frequently are you able to incorporate what you learned from festivals and workshops into your dance?
>
> It's a slow Saturday night and I'm writing as I listen to Garrison Keillor's monologue. Unfortunately, there's no AT in Lake Wobegone, MN,.
>
> Michael
> Washington, DC
> I danced Argentine Tango - - with the Argentines
>
Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 20:30:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
Provided they're gentle, subtle and led mostly with the torso,
I think Sacadas are quite popular in BA. But, as Ron has written,?
the major elements are the embrace and musicality.
Jack
> From: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
>
> I enjoyed my vacation in BA even though some tried to tell me what to do. I
> observed that the Argentines use the following figures:
>
> Back ocho
> Low Boleo
> Walking
> Ocho Cortado
> Giros (called molinetes north of the equator)
>
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 01:13:42 -0400
From: Steve Littler <sl@stevelittler.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
How about the cruzada (cross), or the little cross (half-signal)? (Or is
that already considered in Ocho Cortado?)
I usually end back ochos with a cross or forward/backward boleo.
Steve
>
Date: Sat, 9 May 2009 22:51:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
True! The Front Cross, or Cruzada, is one of the
most beautiful steps in Tango! Especially following
a Low Boleo. Exquisite.
Jack
> From: Steve Littler <sl@stevelittler.com>
>
> How about the cruzada (cross), >
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 06:45:22 -0400
From: Sergey Kazachenko <syarzhuk@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
To: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Cc: Tango L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<ebb7980c0905100345y25150898m2f0d42fd5810fe43@mail.gmail.com>
You don't *need* most of the ***adas. However, you *can* incorporate them to
spice up the dance.
Specifically:
- volcadas - I use them sporadically (at most once per song, usually <=1 per
tanda) if I feel the connection with the partner is especially strong; when
they work, they are fun!
- sacadas - there's one I especially enjoy, which is when you lead a giro to
your left, sacada on the open step to her right, therefore her left foot is
sent into a nice circle around her axis. The rest (and there are tens, if
not hundreds, of them, I know a guy, Miles, who came up with a
classification system, he's getting to a 1000 different ones now) are not
quite necessary;
- soltadas - I took one class at the festival. While I don't care much about
the soltadas themselves, the build-up to the one of them they showed
(underarm turn that brings the partner closer to you), when done at the
right moment at the end of the song, makes for a great finale, so I am
grateful for that class as well.
Sergey
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 08:39:03 -0500
From: Tango Society of Central Illinois <tango.society@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
<cff24c340905100639j77988fdatd9e76f8744e5f480@mail.gmail.com>
On Sun, May 10, 2009 at 12:13 AM, Steve Littler <sl@stevelittler.com> wrote:
> How about the cruzada (cross), or the little cross (half-signal)? (Or is
> that already considered in Ocho Cortado?)
>
> I usually end back ochos with a cross or forward/backward boleo.
The terminology isn't always consistent. The linear walk to the cross,
where the woman crosses her left foot back in front of her right, is
occasionally seen as an exit from back ochos (crossed feet), but
rarely in parallel feet in Buenos Aires (as in the '8-count basic').
The cross coming from a woman's forward walk, pivot clockwise on right
foot and cross left in front of right, pivot counterclockwise is
sometimes called the 'ocho milonguero'. This could result as well as a
rebound from a boleo or rock step. These are seen often in Buenos
Aires milongas, although I believe the ocho cortado is by far the most
common sequence leading to the woman's cross.
Ron
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 19:18:14 +0200
From: Melina Sedo & Detlef Engel <tango@tangodesalon.de>
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
How many figures do you need to be a good dancer?
In my opinion? NOT ONE STEP!
You can be an excellent dancer, if you just walk forward - provided
you do it musically, connected to the partner with a nice embrace.
If you are furthermore able to communicate a shift of weight in place,
a sidestep and a backstep, this is even better!
If you are even capable of communicationg a pivot and of
distinguishing between the parallel and the crossed system this is a
big plus.
But you don't need it to be a good dancer. It just gives you a bigger
repertoire.
I've danced with a lot of good dancers, who have a quite limited
repertoire and with even more bad dancers with a huge repertoire! Some
may find that boring, but I'm searching for the quality within a
single movement.
But just now, I prefer to not dance at all, but to rest my feet after
three days of teaching in Oslo. ;-)
Have a nice day,
Melina
MELINA SEDO & DETLEF ENGEL
www.tangodesalon.de
www.youtube.com/tangodesalon
tango@tangodesalon.de
(0049) (0)681 9381839
(0049) (0)177 4340669
Date: Sun, 10 May 2009 21:35:36 -0500
From: Joe Grohens <joe.grohens@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Cc: Joe Grohens <joe.grohens@gmail.com>
Melina wrote:
> How many figures do you need to be a good dancer? In my opinion? NOT
> ONE STEP!
Indeed! No figures. Period. (begs the question, what is a figure, but
good rule)
> You can be an excellent dancer, if you just walk forward - provided
> you do it musically, connected to the partner with a nice embrace.
But... do you really just walk "forward"? And, not turning whatsoever?
-joe
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 10:02:33 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
To: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Cc: Tango L <tango-l@mit.edu>
Michael wrote:
> I enjoyed my vacation in BA even though some tried to tell me what to do. I observed that the Argentines use the following figures:
>
> Back ocho
> Low Boleo
> Walking
> Ocho Cortado
> Giros (called molinetes north of the equator)
We also call'em giros - you need to involve a meridian (or two) somewhere as well ;).
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 10:10:26 +0200
From: Bertil Nestorius <bertil36@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
For me a molinette is what the woman/follower dance when the couple is doing a Giro.
That means molinette is short for back-side-front.
Best regards,
Bertil
> Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 10:02:33 +0200
> From: al@sgi.com
> To: tangomaniac@cavtel.net
> CC: tango-l@mit.edu
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
>
> Michael wrote:
> > I enjoyed my vacation in BA even though some tried to tell me what to do. I observed that the Argentines use the following figures:
> >
> > Back ocho
> > Low Boleo
> > Walking
> > Ocho Cortado
> > Giros (called molinetes north of the equator)
>
> We also call'em giros - you need to involve a meridian (or two) somewhere as well ;).
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. Check it out!
https://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 03:18:21 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
To: "tango-l@mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
Terminology I use when teaching, and I do this without claiming that it is correct or anything like that, purpose being just to be able identify and talk about things we do, is "molinete" for the case when the axis of rotation is in one partner's leg/side-of-the-body and "giro" when the axis of rotation is between the partners. Since we need terms to address things we discuss/teach, this terminology has served me well, right or wrong.
===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================
________________________________
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2009 4:10:26 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
For me a molinette is what the woman/follower dance when the couple is doing a Giro.
That means molinette is short for back-side-front.
Best regards,
Bertil
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 18:41:30 +0200
From: " "Dr. Daniel K?smayr" " <daniel@kaesmayr.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Melina,
you could go even one step (sic) further: you only need the connection
with your partner, the music and the floor.
Everything else is just decoration. In order to be a good dancer no
externally visible movement is necessary.
It's just (more?) fun.
Daniel, fan of simple tango.
PS: Of course, there's quite a bit of things you need to get that
connection.
PPS: And then there is a lot of things you don't need for it.
PPPS: And even more things you need to *not* have.
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 14:17:19 -0500
From: michael <2tango99@gmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need? / no AT in Lake
Wobegone, MN
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<e7bfb9e80905111217l55dea70alc71516dc0865e219@mail.gmail.com>
>
>
> How frequently are you able to incorporate what you learned from festivals
> and workshops into your dance?
>
> It's a slow Saturday night and I'm writing as I listen to Garrison
> Keillor's monologue. Unfortunately, there's no AT in Lake Wobegone, MN,.
>
> Michael
> Washington, DC
Just down the road in Hopkins, MN we had our monthly Tango Society of
Minnesota milonga last Saturday night, with great music by DJ Christopher
Everett. Stop in next month.
Michael,
Minneaplois, MN
Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 18:11:59 +0930
From: "Pat Petronio" <petronio@adam.com.au>
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
I certainly agree with Melina on this one.
"I've danced with a lot of good dancers, who have a quite limited
repertoire and with even more bad dancers with a huge repertoire! Some
may find that boring, but I'm searching for the quality within a
single movement."
It seems that the discussion about the number of figures (however small that number may be) can have an unintended consequence. It may distract some readers from what is the essence of the dance.
As a woman in tango, the feeling of being transported in the dance is absolutely the result of quality of movement, and my partner's connection with me & the music, certainly not the number of "figures" he may be leading.
Thanks for the thought-provoking topics!
Patricia Petronio
Tango Sal?n Adelaide
www.tangosalonadelaide.blogspot.com
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 15:20:52 +0200
From: "www.tango-argentino.info"
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Hi Michael,
you need all steps, as much as you like, it's not that you have to
dance them all, but you need them for to study, for improvising, to
become free, so that you can dance, walk in any direction, you can
turn to the right, to the left, you can dance voleos, sacadas etc etc
in nearly every position YOU like.
to dance like the great dancers like Lampazo, El Negro Portaleo,
Gavito, or walk like Juan Carlos Copes, that way of dancing you don't
learn by only walking. It's not that easy. It's like art, and to
dance art you have to leave away, you see what you don't dance, thats
contents. All famous milongueros, we all love how they dance, they
studied hundreds of figures. Picaso could paint everything in detail
but with one line he painted his famous bull, because he studied
every detail to know what is the sintesis, its similar with to dance
tango, the more you can the less you need....
The new generation milongueros Rivarola, Veron, Chicho, Naveira,
Zotto (Miguel) and other good dancers of this generation they all
studied with maestros who teached figures (Todaro, Lampazo, Miguel,
Pepito, etc etc). In the salon you don't see them dancing figures but
they can dance in any direction, in every situation they dance,
because there bodies are used to move in all directions, to improvise
in every situation...so you will become free to dance your tango.
regards,
Ricardo
"El holand?s"
Ricardo & Rotraut
Tango Argentino
https://www.tango-argentino.info
https://www.tango-dvd.net
Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 08:11:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
--- On Wed, 5/13/09, www.tango-argentino.info
> you need all steps, as much as you like, it's not that you
> have to dance them all, but you need them for to study, for
> improvising, to become free, so that you can dance, walk in any direction, you can turn to the right, to the left, you can dance voleos,
> sacadas etc etc in nearly every position YOU like.
I agree with you, Ricardo. I know that I have much better flexibility for having learned more complex elements even if I hardly ever use them. And that has given me freedom of movement, freedom of expression, freedom of spirit.
I like steps.
I like the creativity in how my partners transition into steps.
I like it when I "invent" a movement I feel is mine.
I like being able to express a connection or the music in a number of different ways.
I like being able to dance adventuruously, seductively, playfully, sadly, or quietly with my partner.
I like seeing the personality or mood of my partner come through in his/her dance.
If everyone danced the same, well, how boring would that be?
Trini de Pittsburgh
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 03:43:11 +0930
From: "roger" <roger@websa.com.au>
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
I have just read all the emails on 'How many figures do you need?' . The
response seem to reflect the remarks made about making love. The males seem
all obsessed on "How many" and female response is one of "It's not how many,
but what you do with them." (Replace "many" with "big" and you see my
point). It seems to get back to the fact that males think of performance,
females of connection.
I have been doing following classes for a while and really understand the
female point of view. If I make that connection, even it is walking, it is
more enjoyable than any number of "fancy steps" where we aren't connected.
Roger Spence
Tango Adelaide
www.tangoadelaide.org
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 05:09:20 -0400
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
To: "roger" <roger@websa.com.au>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
Roger:
Congratulations!! You are absolutely correct. It took me a long time to
learn this important lesson from the book "Men are from Mars. Women are from
Buenos Aires.
Michael
I danced Argentine Tango - - with the Argentines
----- Original Message -----
From: "roger" <roger@websa.com.au>
Sent: Sunday, May 17, 2009 2:13 PM
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
>I have just read all the emails on 'How many figures do you need?' . The
>response seem to reflect the remarks made about making love. The males seem
> all obsessed on "How many" and female response is one of "It's not how
> many, but what you do with them." (Replace "many" with "big" and you see
> my
> point). It seems to get back to the fact that males think of performance,
> females of connection.
>
> I have been doing following classes for a while and really understand the
> female point of view. If I make that connection, even it is walking, it is
> more enjoyable than any number of "fancy steps" where we aren't connected.
>
> Roger Spence
>
> Tango Adelaide
>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 07:27:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I can't fault guys too much for trying to learn new figures. Heck, I try to learn new ornaments all the time. As a follower, I'll get a much wider variety of steps than a man will at a milonga. That could by why the male/female responses are as they are. When I decide to lead at a milonga, I'm always thinking "what else can I do?" Women may just take this variety for granted instead of realizing how hard it is for man to develop his dance. I find it more difficult for me to express myself fully as a leader than as a follower. Not sure how much of that is skill-related versus the roles of the partners.
It's nice that men really think about making the dance interesting for the women and that they compete with each other in one form or another. As with anything else, it's about finding a good balance. So I don't think anyone should be pooh-poohing learning figures just because it's learning figures. Learning figures at the expense of partner connection, though, would be bad.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- On Sun, 5/17/09, roger <roger@websa.com.au> wrote:
> From: roger <roger@websa.com.au>
> Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
> To: tango-l@mit.edu
> Date: Sunday, May 17, 2009, 2:13 PM
> I have just read all the emails on
> 'How many figures do you need?' .? The
> response seem to reflect the remarks made about making
> love. The males seem
> all obsessed on "How many" and female response is one of
> "It's not how many,
> but what you do with them." (Replace "many" with "big" and
> you see my
> point). It seems to get back to the fact that males think
> of performance,
> females of connection.
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 23:27:38 +1000
From: Gary <garybarn@ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I was struck by this observation:
> When I decide to lead at a milonga, I'm always thinking "what else
> can I do?"
I don't get this feeling often, but its a killer when it happens.
(BTW, I'm almost certain that the writer knows a lot more 'stuff'
than me.)
I've realised that I only have this feeling at a milonga when either:
1) I'm not connecting well with my partner (especially those who like
to add lots of noise to the dance, but also just when I'm having a
bad dance day, or shouldn't have accepted the dance); or
2) I don't like the music at all for dancing tango (eg against my
better judgement, I've said yes to a doof-doof); or
3) I'm intimidated (eg sometimes dancing with someone much better
than me).
I don't know much in the way of figures. And I have wonderful dances
often enough to make life worthwhile.
But it seems that, when I'm cornered, my brain still resorts to "must
do more stuff".
Maybe its hardwired.
(Your mileage will of course vary.)
GB
Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 09:14:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
--- On Tue, 5/19/09, Gary <garybarn@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
> > When I decide to lead at a milonga, I'm always
> thinking "what else?
> > can I do?"
>
> I don't get this feeling often, but its a killer when it
> happens.? (BTW, I'm almost certain that the writer knows a lot more
> 'stuff'? than me.)
I wrote the first statement above and while I know a lot of stuff (but let's not do a count comparison) I don't get much of a chance to use it at a milonga. I am so used to eliminating things from my vocabulary to adjust to my partner, that when I do have a partner who can really dance, it's like "wait a minute, I can actually do something but what?". For less experienced partner, I need to search around for what can I do that this person can handle without boring myself with the same backward ochos that I did for the last 3 tandas.
I don't feel those artistic restrictions as a follower, perhaps that's just because I'm more skilled as a follower than as a leader. And while we hear all the time that men need to adjust to the level of the follower, I don't think women quite fully appreciate what they are asking of the leaders. Kudos to the guys who just keep plugging away at this dance and making ordinary women feel special.
Trini de Pittsburgh
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 09:48:34 +1000
From: Noughts <damian.thompson@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
To: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Cc: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
<cb8208d0905201648w5ba6ef47pc4ff2352ef8b1bbf@mail.gmail.com>
Trini
I would agree with this immesely - as a follower, certainly I'm more
limited.? As a leader, I don't have to think anywhere near as much as
most of my leading dance process is now well and truly bedded.
However, when many of the women I know start to lead, they go through
this enormous learning curve and realise just how difficult it is for
the leader and almost immediately have more respect for the leaders
that do not only lead well, but musically and navigate and protect
and...
The same can be said for men learning to follow for whatever reason
that they have, they then understand how much hard it is to follow and
then how important it is to lead clearly - this is why all my male
students learn to do both sides at some point. The revelations that
they have are very important - especially when it comes to pushing and
pulling with the arms (lets not debate this again...).
Damian
>
> I don't feel those artistic restrictions as a follower, perhaps that's just because I'm more skilled as a follower than as a leader. ?And while we hear all the time that men need to adjust to the level of the follower, I don't think women quite fully appreciate what they are asking of the leaders. ?Kudos to the guys who just keep plugging away at this dance and making ordinary women feel special.
>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 09:48:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
It seems like the alternative to lots of variety in steps is to either do
few steps better and/or do the walk with more variety.
For the close embrace enthusiast who doesn't want to break the embrace
in order to do a figure, there is the search for a more profound connection
throughout the figures the pauses and then there is the walk.
The walk is THE place where variety can lead to more mutual?enjoyment in the dance.
Switching back and fourth from parallel to crossed at key junctions in the dance is
a very beautiful movement. The crossed footed walk is usually headed for an early
goal of walking to the cross or an immediate giro while the walk in parallel can be extended
and synchopated endlessly if so desired.
I personally love to watch the walk and it's many permutations. For me, the figures are
punctuations in the walk much?like a pause would be.? There are some great walkers out
there and I'm always watching for their videos to appear.? At this point in my quest for
Tango Flow, the walk is my daily bread...and butter.
Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 09:38:02 -0400
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
To: "Mario" <sopelote@yahoo.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
Mario:
Congratulations. You got it. Look at the faces of the dancers. Who thinks
too much and who feels the dance? Which leaders shove women through figures
and who lets them move on their own? Which followers use their right arm to
pull and push themselves through ochos?
Michael
I danced Argentine Tango - - with the Argentines
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mario" <sopelote@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] How many figures do you need?
It seems like the alternative to lots of variety in steps is to either do
few steps better and/or do the walk with more variety. For the close embrace
enthusiast who doesn't want to break the embrace in order to do a figure,
there is the search for a more profound connection throughout the figures
the pauses and then there is the walk. The walk is THE place where variety
can lead to more mutual enjoyment in the dance.
