5483 How we learn
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 10:31:46 +0000
From: "'Mash" <mashdot@toshine.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] How we learn
To: Tango-L <tango-l@mit.edu>
I know we write alot about how classes should be taught but I am wondering now how we actually learn Tango.
It would be interesting to hear from those who can still remember what it was like learning Tango for the first time.
When I can I go along to the beginner (first time) classes due to the need for men and I love seeing how different people learn and react to being taught.
I have noticed that it is the men who generally get frustrated first, and are also the slowest to understand the steps by just watching them. It is the men who always ask... "So how do I know whether to do a backwards or forwards ocho?"
And the women without doubt tend to be the ones who stick no matter what to a set pattern of steps. I have watched how a teacher will demonstrate walking forwards, changing weight, walking forwards and immediately there is background chatter about whether there were two steps and then change or three steps and what leg did he start on...
What I am basically saying is that I think there is an automatic response to learning a dance even to those who have never danced in their lives. I believe we learn first and foremost from patterns whether we like it or not. The little I know of neuroscience confirms this. We learn by repetition and repetition meaning the same sequence over and over until it is etched into our memory and muscles.
One wonders though if you were to set up the following experiment.
What if you were to take a group of men and teach them Tango steps. Just the walking, the weight change and leading pivot and direction with ones chest. Then after say a month invite completely first time women to the class and ask the men to dance with the men and not telling the women anything other then to always face the man and turn with (follow) his chest.
I would love to see if the women, now void of any talk of steps, number of steps, direction of steps; would just follow the men around the room.
I personally know that there are almost waves of learning from days where it seems like rocket science to days it feels like walking down the street. What I would like to know is have teachers ever taken the time to find out just how people are learning. Why at times does the majority "get it" and other times people hide in the corners of the room. How many teachers take their students out for a drinks after class to get to know them and thus be able to change the way you give instruction to each student during class. Having the ability to give each student individual attention during a group class and in the best way is in my mind so important. 30 people in the room do not all watch the same way, do not hear the same way and certainly do not learn the same way.
I think teachers should worry less about WHAT they are teaching sometimes and first find out how their students are responding to HOW they are teaching. They may then be surprised at how creativity and musicality may never have to be formally taught as the students are dancing rather then trying to do Tango steps.
'Mash
London,UK
"Tango, like juggling with ice cream."
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:16:38 +1100
From: Tim <lists@timbp.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How we learn
To: tango-l@mit.edu
'Mash wrote:
> I know we write alot about how classes should be taught but I am wondering now how we actually learn Tango.
> It would be interesting to hear from those who can still remember what it was like learning Tango for the first time.
>
I was just about to start a thread related to this subject when I
received this post.
One of my points was that there are two parties in a class -- the
teacher and the learner. Everyone criticises the teacher if the learner
goes away with patterns rather than technique.
I have been dancing Ceroc/modern jive for four years, and started
learning tango towards the end of last year.
Many people think of Ceroc as purely pattern (moves) based, with no true
lead and follow. Maybe that was true 20 or 10 years ago, or in other
places, but certainly in the past four years in Sydney it has been
taught as lead-follow, and I now think of it (and dance it) as an
improvisational lead-follow partner dance with the basic step being a walk.
While I will sometimes choose to lead a particular move, most of the
time I am simply responding to the music and the relative positions of
my partner, myself, and available dance floor. You could say I am doing
nothing but stepping forwards or backwards or sideways or pivoting, and
leading my partner to step forwards or backwards or sideways or pivot
(regarding a spin as an extreme pivot).
So I am comfortable with the idea of a dance being improvised
lead-follow in response to the music.
Now I am learning tango, and I like being given patterns. If I go out on
the tango dance floor thinking all I have to do is lead forward and
backward and sideward steps and pivots as the music takes me, then all I
will do is forward and backward and sideward steps and pivots. It is in
the patterns that I learn to lead my partner to turn as I step around
her, that I learn to change direction, that I learn to put forward and
backward and sideward steps and pivots together in different ways to
make something more.
At present, when I dance tango, I walk to the music or do the couple of
patterns I am comfortable with. People who watch me might criticise my
teachers for just teaching me patterns.
But I do not believe my teachers are teaching patterns. Nor do I feel I
am just learning patterns (although for the moment I may be just dancing
patterns).
However, I do believe others in my classes are only learning patterns.
And perhaps if I did not already have dance experience I too would be
only learning patterns.
For now, patterns help me learn to dance tango. Sometime soon I will
start breaking down the patterns and putting the parts together
differently (as I did for a time with Ceroc). Sometime after that I will
generally forget about patterns or their parts, and just lead my
follower according to the music and the available space.
But I don't think I can get to that point without starting with patterns.
Tim
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 11:52 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How we learn
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> One wonders though if you were to set up the following experiment.
You don't need to set up that experiment 'Mash. Watch a milonga or mixed
practica in any strong tango community and you see it already in operation.
> I would love to see if the women, now void of any talk of steps, number
> of steps, direction of steps; would just follow the men around the room
Indeed it is lovely to see. That's the way it's worked for the last
hundred years, and no doubt will do for the next.
--
Chris
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 12:29 +0000 (GMT Standard Time)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How we learn
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> Why at times does the majority "get it" and other times people hide in
> the corners of the room.
Because the premise of bulk teaching - "one size fits all" - is false.
> How many teachers take their students out for a drinks after class to
> get to know them and thus be able to change the way you give
> instruction to each student during class.
Very few, because that sort of thing doesn't belong in bulk teaching. The
place for individually tailored teaching is one-to-one lessons.
> I think teachers should worry less about WHAT they are teaching
> sometimes and first find out how their students are responding to HOW
> they are teaching. They may then be surprised at how creativity and
> musicality may never have to be formally taught
Teachers vary widely. Some never get the surprise... they're usually the
ones who never got the creativity either.
Others do, but then don't welcome what they see as a cutback in the
curriculum that's the basis of their authority over the dance and dancers.
Others aren't at all surprised to find creativity/musicality doesn't have
to be taught - but still are delighted to have helped it find expression!
--
Chris
Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 08:16:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] How we learn
To: tango-l@mit.edu
BRAVO FOR THIS POST!
> One wonders though if you were to set up the following experiment. You don't need to set up that experiment 'Mash. Watch a milonga or mixed practica in any strong tango community and you see it already in operation. > I would love to see if the women, now void of any talk of steps, number > of steps, direction of steps; would just follow the men around the room Indeed it is lovely to see. That's the way it's worked for the last hundred years, and no doubt will do for the next. -- Chris
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Date: Tue, 22 Jan 2008 15:13:07 -0800 (PST)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] How we learn
Mario,
If you read more of Chris' posts, you will also understand
that he is also saying that women do not need to study at
all. This is true but only to a point. It works quite well
if a woman only dances with really good partners, which is,
say, 1% of the tanguera population, perhaps? :-)
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> BRAVO FOR THIS POST!
>
> > One wonders though if you were to set up the following
> experiment. You don't need to set up that experiment
> 'Mash. Watch a milonga or mixed practica in any strong
> tango community and you see it already in operation. >
> I would love to see if the women, now void of any talk of
> steps, number > of steps, direction of steps; would
> just follow the men around the room Indeed it is
> lovely to see. That's the way it's worked for the last
> hundred years, and no doubt will do for the next. --
> Chris
>
>
> Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
>
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