4048 Inflation hits Buenos Aires milongas
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 18:06:11 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: Inflation hits Buenos Aires milongas
Inflation is running at about 1% per month, so it's no wonder that the cost
of going to a milonga has increased. The entradas of 2004--three to five
pesos--will never been seen again. After the Cromagnon fire and the
enforcement of new fire regulations, the milongas reopened with higher
entradas to cover expenses. A few milongas charge one entrada for locals
and another for tourists, as is the case with many things in Argentina
(i.e., travel within the country). Entradas to the milongas are still very
reasonable for tourists. Ten years ago when the peso was tied to the
dollar, the entrada at La Milonga del Molina was $8USD, higher than others
at the time. The dollar is worth three pesos today.
Enrique's milonga de los Consagrados was 3 pesos for women and 5 pesos for
men three years ago in Lo de Celia. He moved to Centro Region Leonesa in
2004 and charged 4 pesos to everyone. The entrada increased to five, then
six in 2005, and as of this weekend to seven pesos. He has a large place
with rent and employees. He lost his regular DJ Carlos Lafflito who asked
for a ten peso raise a few weeks ago. Carlos told me that Enrique refused
to pay it so he quit. Carlos worked from 4:30-10:30pm for 70 pesos.
Club Gricel had charged five pesos for years. Last week I learned that the
current entrada is seven pesos. The place is always packed on Friday nights
with more than 400, so dancing is impossible until 3am.
I went to hear Gente de Tango on Thursday night in Confiteria Ideal. My
mouth dropped when I was told the entrada was 12 pesos. A friend
accompanying me couldn't afford it; fortunately they gave her a discount. I
realize that they have to pay an orchestra, but more people attend when
there is an orchestra.
The new Pigmalion in Palermo Viejo opened in 2005 charging ten pesos for the
weekend milongas. They are sparsely attended, but it's an entirely different
kind of place than the downtown milongas.
Celia Blanco had her entradas set at three pesos for women and five pesos
for men in 2004. Her club was closed from January to late September 2005
until she made necessary improvements. When she reopened the entradas were
six pesos on the weekend, seven on Mondays. Her club was closed again by
the city on January 21, and she has no idea as to if or when the city with
allow her to reopen. Celia has had more than her share of problems in
fighting city hall.
The milongas are competing for patrons, local and foreign. Many locals are
going to dance less often, including me. Many retired people can't afford
to pay the entradas. They live on a very small fixed incomes, and eating
takes priority over dancing. This is drastically changing the climate of
the milongas where foreigners outnumber the locals. Last Thursday night at
Nino Bien was probably 70% tourists which means that you can come all the
way to BsAs and dance with other tourists rather than local dancers.
Last night, I happened to see a group of French tourists outside Leonesa who
seemed to be trying to decide where to go to dance. One member of the group
spoke English, so I recommended that they go to Plaza Bohemia, assuring them
they could dance from 11pm until 3am. They took my advice and went there.
After dining with friends, we arrived at Plaza Bohemia around 1am. We asked
if a group from France had arrived. The organizer told us no, they hadn't.
I spoke to the cashier and learned that they had arrived and four of them
were still dancing. The organizer made us pay the entrada. I later told
him that I had recommended his milonga to these foreigners who were thinking
about going to La Calesita instead. He told me that I should call and make
a reservation for them. The point was I sent him 7 dancers and he charged
us the six peso entrada for one hour in his milonga. He closed at 2am
instead of 3am. Needless to say, my friends and I have decided never to
return to Cachirulo on Saturdays in Plaza Bohemia run by Hector and Norma.
The place is so packed around 8pm that he turns people away at the door. He
has more business than he can handle in the small place, so be prepared to
be turned away at the door if you go during prime time hours: 7-10pm.
Front page news in today's La Nacion reports on how foreigners are buying
land and property in Argentina. Average prices in real estate in Barrio
Norte are $1,275USD per square meter compared to $7,500USD in NYC and
$7,000USD in Paris. A chart shows the prices of a 20-block taxi ride, a
daily newspaper, executive lunch, and average pair of shoes in Argentina,
USA, France and other countries. Here's a sample (all prices in pesos):
Taxi ride for 20 blocks: Argentina: $6 USA: $31 France: $25
Newspaper: Argentina: $1.80 USA: $3 France $3.70
Lunch: Argentina: $18 USA: $31 France $59
Shoes: Argentina: $120 USA: $250 France: $350
Janis Kenyon
Buenos Aires
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 22:45:04 +0100
From: Christian Lüthen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: Inflation hits Buenos Aires milongas
On 12 Feb 2006 at 18:06, Janis Kenyon wrote:
> Entradas to the milongas are still very reasonable for tourists.
Not if you go out every night for a couple of weeks! Do not forget that!
> Ten years ago when the peso was tied to the
> dollar, the entrada at La Milonga del Molina was $8USD, higher than others
> at the time. The dollar is worth three pesos today.
Right in numbers, wrong in conclusion!
The Peso in Argentina still buys the same products in Argentina as before devaluation - only
imported products raised in price! Therefore daily costs of life did not change! (at least not to
that extend, of course there is inflation!)
Once again: Nobody, but nobody at all in Bs.As. cared about the US$-to-Peso 1-to-1-relation
when I was down in Bs.As. for the first time in 1998: they happily took away my money! No
discount, no nothing!
And if you calculate the daily-cost-of-living-factor milongas in Bs.As. are even more
expensive than down here in the Netherlands (usually between 3 and 7 Euros, the last one
allready exagerated!).
> The milongas are competing for patrons, local and foreign. Many locals are
> going to dance less often, including me.
Many tourist will do the same if they continue like that!
> Many retired people can't afford
> to pay the entradas. They live on a very small fixed incomes, and eating
> takes priority over dancing. This is drastically changing the climate of
> the milongas where foreigners outnumber the locals.
The milonga-owners also only run a buisiness ... I doubt there's any ethics in there: who pays
more is taken im.
> Last Thursday night at
> Nino Bien was probably 70% tourists which means that you can come all the
> way to BsAs and dance with other tourists rather than local dancers.
Well: at least the tourist will dance with them, at least the tourist will appreciate the other
tourists dancing skills which are often enough higher than those of many locals, at least that
way even good dancing tourists will get less of those arrogant regards by locals ("you are a
tourist, therefore by definition you do not know to dance"), ... etc. If Bs.As. continues like that,
and together with the growing of tango itself and tango communities and festivals around the
world tango travellers will change their directions and itineries ... =:-o [yes, I've also allready
attend Portland Oktober (Tango)Fest twice ... do not share the secret with any argentinian
but there's great great tango even in 'gringo land'! [and it's non-smoking! :-) ]
I stick to my earlier statements: Bs.As. is not a cheap town for the tourists - it's not at the
moment, it has not been before the crisis! But it's mystified by many many tango dancers!
If tango-organizers in Bs.As. continue the way Janis described they will at the end destroy
their own biz! Well, perhaps not too bad: then they'd have another reason to cry and blame!
:-(
Christian
P.S.: disclaimer: I love to be in Bs.As., I love the pace of the town, I love the atmosphere of a
lot of milongas ... as long as I do not get ripped off! [and this feeling augmented in 2004 and
2005 compared to 2003!]
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 16:42:48 -0800
From: NANCY <ningle_2000@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Inflation hits Buenos Aires milongas
--- Christian L|then <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
wrote:
Christian,
I have been going to BsAs for eight years now and
always stay for a month. You are correct about the
level of dancing ( among other things). Portland,
Denver, and Atlanta all have dancers who are more
creative, more musical, more democratic in their
choice of partners and they do not try to hustle
lessons or sex while they are dancing with you. Will
I continue to go to BsAs? Of course - for all the
reasons you mention, but I will be doing other things
besides tango - last year I went to the opera which is
1/5 theprice of The Met in NYC, to a theater
production, to several museums and to many fine
restaurants. I love the city, with or without tango.
I spent my money and my time where I felt I was
getting good value and unless the Argentines are
totally naive when it comes to marketing, they will
re-evaluate their product and their sales force
before it becomes another Disney World where it is all
make-believe sham created to generate the most
revenue. I have little sympathy for those locals who
can't go dancing every night - none of us do, we are
all working and saving our money so we can go to BsAs.
And how can those folks be productive at work if they
are out dancing every night until 3:00am????
Hmm.....could that have an effect on the economy?
Nancy
Florida
<<Rito es la danza en tu vida
y el tango que tu amas
te quema en su llama>>
de: Bailarina de tango
por: Horacio Sanguinetti
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 23:45:10 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Inflation hits Buenos Aires milongas
>From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
>
>Front page news in today's La Nacion reports on how foreigners are buying
>land and property in Argentina. Average prices in real estate in Barrio
>Norte are $1,275USD per square meter compared to $7,500USD in NYC and
>$7,000USD in Paris. A chart shows the prices of a 20-block taxi ride, a
>daily newspaper, executive lunch, and average pair of shoes in Argentina,
>USA, France and other countries. Here's a sample (all prices in pesos):
>
>Taxi ride for 20 blocks: Argentina: $6 USA: $31 France: $25
>Newspaper: Argentina: $1.80 USA: $3 France $3.70
>Lunch: Argentina: $18 USA: $31 France $59
>Shoes: Argentina: $120 USA: $250 France: $350
>
>Janis Kenyon
>Buenos Aires
I don't know about the cost of milongas and how the Argentinean economy is
comparing with the rest of the world, but the numbers quoted in the
newspaper mentioned seem to be out of reason. Perhaps NYC or Paris have such
prices but other very nice large cities at least in the USA are not nearly
so expensive. Except for the taxi rides that I don't know much about,
Atlanta's prices are more as follows:
Newspaper: $.50
Lunch: $6 ~ $12
Shoes: $20~$250 (more likely $30~$100)
A new 250 sq meter house in the suburbs can be had for $300.000 (about $1200
per sq mtr). A nice apartment in the city can be had for $2000/meter and a
new "Mac Mansion" (8K~10K sq feet) for around $1000 ~ $2000/meter (of
course, the toatl price is rather high)
Our milongas/practicas run $8~$15 depending on the venue (the rent varies)
Our dancers' level varies but we have lots of good dancers. Most of our
locals are friendly and will dance with visitors. Our milongas are all smoke
free :-)...
Still, Atlanta is not BsAs and we all know that... Personally we like to
travel for tango and we find that it's a lot of fun to make new friends and
dance with different people as well as to visit and learn about other
places. We travel a good bit inside the USA as well as abroad. We've not
been to BsAs in a few years though, perhaps that will change one of these
days ;-)
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 21:38:25 -0800
From: Dr Zarlengo <zarlengo@MAC.COM>
Subject: Re: Inflation hits Buenos Aires milongas
Thank you for your observations about costs in Buenos Aires.
In the past 12 years, I have seen properties in Central and South
America continue to rise. It has been on the rise in the Middle East
as well and of course Spain. What I could have bought 10 years ago
for $70,000 US is over $300,000 US.
I lived in Central America and traveled to South America and stayed
with friends usually. But when you are on the street doing those
things that we all need to do plus attending dance, entertainment,
dining, the costs can be low or high depending on where you go. If
you go where locals go, it is always cheaper. I also learned that
prices for locals compared to those of us from other countries a very
different. I left Costa Rica a year and a half ago. I could dine
with a view of the capital, San Jose, for about $2.00 plus drink. I
could also go into the mixed areas (locals and foreigners) and pay
$20 or $30 for a dinner.
Even if you make good friends with locals, it still takes awhile
before they will help you get local prices on such things as repairs,
cars, real estate, used equipment, etc. Where there is ignorance,
there are people who will take advantage of it.
I have found it better to bring my own things into the country in
which I will be living over a couple of trips. The electronics are
often problematic. The quality of much of it is low, support low,
functionality questionable, and repair/maintenance high (unless you
have a good local as a close friend). People seem to adopt me as when
of their own almost everywhere I travel.
But the Tango is the window to my soul.
Don
El Feb 12, 2006, a las 8:45 PM, WHITE 95 R escribió:
> From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
>
> Front page news in today's La Nacion reports on how foreigners are
> buying
> land and property in Argentina. Average prices in real estate in
> Barrio
> Norte are $1,275USD per square meter compared to $7,500USD in NYC and
> $7,000USD in Paris. A chart shows the prices of a 20-block taxi
> ride, a
> daily newspaper, executive lunch, and average pair of shoes in
> Argentina,
> USA, France and other countries. Here's a sample (all prices in
> pesos):
>
> Taxi ride for 20 blocks: Argentina: $6 USA: $31 France: $25
> Newspaper: Argentina: $1.80 USA: $3 France $3.70
> Lunch: Argentina: $18 USA: $31 France $59
> Shoes: Argentina: $120 USA: $250 France: $350
>
> Janis Kenyon
> Buenos Aires
I don't know about the cost of milongas and how the Argentinean
economy is
comparing with the rest of the world, but the numbers quoted in the
newspaper mentioned seem to be out of reason. Perhaps NYC or Paris
have such
prices but other very nice large cities at least in the USA are not
nearly
so expensive. Except for the taxi rides that I don't know much about,
Atlanta's prices are more as follows:
Newspaper: $.50
Lunch: $6 ~ $12
Shoes: $20~$250 (more likely $30~$100)
A new 250 sq meter house in the suburbs can be had for $300.000
(about $1200
per sq mtr). A nice apartment in the city can be had for $2000/meter
and a
new "Mac Mansion" (8K~10K sq feet) for around $1000 ~ $2000/meter (of
course, the toatl price is rather high)
Our milongas/practicas run $8~$15 depending on the venue (the rent
varies)
Our dancers' level varies but we have lots of good dancers. Most of our
locals are friendly and will dance with visitors. Our milongas are
all smoke
free :-)...
Still, Atlanta is not BsAs and we all know that... Personally we like to
travel for tango and we find that it's a lot of fun to make new
friends and
dance with different people as well as to visit and learn about other
places. We travel a good bit inside the USA as well as abroad. We've not
been to BsAs in a few years though, perhaps that will change one of
these
days ;-)
Il Poeta
di Sognos
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 14:29:15 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Inflation hits Buenos Aires milongas
> >$7,000USD in Paris. A chart shows the prices of a 20-block taxi ride, a
> >daily newspaper, executive lunch, and average pair of shoes in Argentina,
> >USA, France and other countries. Here's a sample (all prices in pesos):
> >
> >Taxi ride for 20 blocks: Argentina: $6 USA: $31 France: $25
> >Newspaper: Argentina: $1.80 USA: $3 France $3.70
> >Lunch: Argentina: $18 USA: $31 France $59
> >Shoes: Argentina: $120 USA: $250 France: $350
> >
> >Janis Kenyon
> >Buenos Aires
>
> I don't know about the cost of milongas and how the Argentinean economy is
> comparing with the rest of the world, but the numbers quoted in the
> newspaper mentioned seem to be out of reason. Perhaps NYC or Paris have
such
> prices but other very nice large cities at least in the USA are not nearly
> so expensive.
Says Manuel.
I wonder, has Janis ever been to Europe? Or is she blindly quoting some
journalist, who has never been there either? These data sound to me like the
articles Austrian magazines publish about Tokyo- that Tokyo railway station
has trains running on six floors. Or what Nakasone once told the Japanese in
the papers: "Our statistics have shown that Japan has the most comfortable,
luxurious housing conditions in the world" (yeah, tell me about it. You
barelyy have enough space to swing the cockroach batter inside the minuscule
kitchens)
For the lunch prices, you can have lunch for 31$ on the Canale Grande side
in Venice, and that has the most expensive food in Italy, which these days
seems more expensive than France. I had lunch under the Rialto bridge for 14
Euro, menu turistico, same place, wiser choice.
And shoes for 350$? You certainly must be joking. Maybe all in the best
leather, handmade, designed by haute couture, but, -come on ! An English
newspaper in Tokyo can be had for 2$, or even 1,50$.
Anyway, I don't believe in all this stuff about the Peso vs. the dollar
rate. This is like the Bali rikshaw drivers telling me they have raised
their prices because the exchange rate is different. Some excuse ! I am no
economist, but for all I know, prices depend on the local GNP, and that
makes no difference for tourists and locals.
Astrid
Date: Sun, 12 Feb 2006 23:06:43 -0700
From: "tho x. bui" <blahx3@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Inflation hits Buenos Aires milongas
WHITE 95 R wrote:
> ...
>
>> A chart shows the prices of a 20-block taxi ride, a
>> daily newspaper, executive lunch, and average pair of shoes in Argentina,
>> USA, France and other countries. Here's a sample (all prices in pesos):
>>
>> Taxi ride for 20 blocks: Argentina: $6 USA: $31 France: $25
>> Newspaper: Argentina: $1.80 USA: $3 France $3.70
>> Lunch: Argentina: $18 USA: $31 France $59
>> Shoes: Argentina: $120 USA: $250 France: $350
>>
>> Janis Kenyon
>> Buenos Aires
>
>
> I don't know about the cost of milongas and how the Argentinean economy is
> comparing with the rest of the world, but the numbers quoted in the
> newspaper mentioned seem to be out of reason. Perhaps NYC or Paris
> have such
> prices but other very nice large cities at least in the USA are not nearly
> so expensive. Except for the taxi rides that I don't know much about,
> Atlanta's prices are more as follows:
>
> Newspaper: $.50
> Lunch: $6 ~ $12
> Shoes: $20~$250 (more likely $30~$100)
>
Note that the article say that the prices are in pesos, which is about
1/3 that of an USD.
The "$" sign here doesn't indicate "US dollar," just that it's a
monetary unit.
A sunday newspaper (about 1$) is 3 pesos.
Lunch (10$) is about 30 pesos
etc...Both of you are quite close in value.
Tho
Tho X. Bui
https://home.earthlink.net/~blahx3/thoxbui/
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 13:45:49 -0600
From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Inflation hits Buenos Aires milongas
I'm a little surprised at responses on this subject.....Christian says
that milonga entradas are not reasonable for tourists "if you go out
every night for a couple of weeks"; do you expect a discount for this?
I'm sure that if you explain to the organizer that you've been to seven
milongas in the last seven days, they'll give you half off*****(stars
are for sarcasm).
Christian also says that milongas in BsAs are more expensive than
Netherlands, which are 3 to 7 euro (app US$3.60-$8.50). The most
expensive milonga I attended (to see Los Reyes at Ideal) was 12ARP
(US$4.00). Most milongas were 7 to 8ARP (US$2.25-$2.75). It sounds like
Netherlands is less expensive than the US; here in Houston (which is a
much cheaper city than New York), milongas run US$8-12.
I just came back from a month in BsAs, and found it an extremely
economical city. The milongas were cheap (notwithstanding any
inflation), food was cheap, taxis were cheap, everything is inexpensive.
The most expensive items are coffee, and bottled water in a restaurant.
Best spinach pizza I've ever had, about US$4 at Sr Telmo. An order of
ravioli to go made two meals for me for a total of US$2.50. Women's
shoes at Flabella (yes, I had to bring back six pair!) US$48. Tenderloin
with fries US$5-$7.
Alberto talks about abuse, and mentions airport prices. Airports
everywhere are abusive. It's dumb to buy most anything at an airport.
I met no rich people in the milongas (except for tourists). My
impression is that many natives struggle to get by. There was much less
pan-handling than when I was there two years ago, but still many
"cartoneros" gathering up recyclables to sell. I love Buenos Aires and
it's people, and do not begrudge them trying to make a buck. I wish the
best for them, and hope that salaries go up faster than their inflation.
I do not even mind paying a slightly higher price at the milongas than
the natives (although I don't think I ever had to).
Christian also writes, <<<< Well: at least the tourist will dance with
them, at least the tourist will appreciate the other tourists dancing
skills which are often enough higher than those of many locals, at least
that way even good dancing tourists will get less of those arrogant
regards by locals ("you are a tourist, therefore by definition you do
not know to dance"), ... etc. If Bs.As. continues like that, and
together with the growing of tango itself and tango communities and
festivals around the world tango travellers will change their directions
and itineries ... =:-o [yes, I've also allready attend Portland Oktober
(Tango)Fest twice ... do not share the secret with any argentinian but
there's great great tango even in 'gringo land'! [and it's
non-smoking!>>>>
Yes, Christian, many of the tourists there are great dancers, but if you
visit any city when there is no festival, you are likely to run into
some "arrogance", until you make a friend or two, and prove that you
dance well. Maybe the inflation is a conspiracy in BsAs to attempt to
keep a few foreigners out of their milongas, especially those with this
kind of attitude.
Every place has something different to offer the tanguero, but Buenos
Aires has more than any other. Where else can you choose between 30 or
40 milongas on weekend nights, hear so many great orchestras, dance with
so many great dancers? No fair to count festivals in this
equation....Going to Buenos Aires at anytime is like going to the big
festivals here in US.....AND incredibly inexpensive!
Michael (see you in Portland)
Houston Texas
Ps-After drinking coffee in Europe and Buenos Aires over the last couple
months, "filter coffee" (as they refer to it in London), doesn't
interest me. I got a Mr Coffee espresso machine for Xmas, and really
like it. It's very compact, and makes great coffee!
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 15:59:32 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Inflation hits Buenos Aires milongas
Good point, it does say that in parenthesis. I got confused by the previous
paragraph:
Front page news in today's La Nacion reports on how foreigners are buying
land and property in Argentina. Average prices in real estate in Barrio
Norte are $1,275USD per square meter compared to $7,500USD in NYC and
$7,000USD in Paris. A chart shows the prices of a 20-block taxi ride, a
daily newspaper, executive lunch, and average pair of shoes in Argentina,
USA, France and other countries. Here's a sample .........
Anyway, real state prices in the rango of $1275 USD per square meter are
high when compared to anyplace other than the most expensive cities in the
world.... I'd guess when the 3:1 conversion factor is applied, the prices in
BAires seem to be the same as in most of the USA. One can only hope that
wages are also in the same ball park. Otherwise the conditions for the
averaga person over there are dire indeed.....
Anyway, sorry for any confusion my mistake might have created.
Manuel
>Note that the article say that the prices are in pesos, which is about
>1/3 that of an USD.
>The "$" sign here doesn't indicate "US dollar," just that it's a
>monetary unit.
>
>A sunday newspaper (about 1$) is 3 pesos.
>Lunch (10$) is about 30 pesos
>etc...Both of you are quite close in value.
>
>Tho
>
>
>Tho X. Bui
>https://home.earthlink.net/~blahx3/thoxbui/
>
Date: Mon, 13 Feb 2006 14:10:57 -0800
From: Maria Longo <madolo@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Inflation hits Buenos Aires milongas-Wrong information about hours of Cachirulo
For the record, hours in Cachirulo changed as announced on January 28, they are back to their winter ending schedule, 2 am, although they will stay later if there are enough dancers. And yes, you might be sent back if you arrive at peak hours. That is why if I can not get there by 6:30 I will wait till 10 pm to arrive. IMHO you find the best level of dancing there, so it is well worth the extra effort.
NFI
Dolores
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 16:08:04 -0300
From: Janis Kenyon <jantango@FEEDBACK.NET.AR>
Subject: Inflation hits Buenos Aires milongas
From: Maria Longo <madolo@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Inflation hits Buenos Aires milongas-Wrong information about hours
of Cachirulo
For the record, hours in Cachirulo changed as announced on January 28, they
are back to their winter ending schedule, 2 am, although they will stay
later if there are enough dancers.
_________
That's odd, because we were there a week ago on February 4 when they stayed
open until 3am. We arrived around 1am and entered without paying the
entrada. There were enough dancers who stayed until 3am. I asked Carlos
how he can manage the music for so many hours. He told me he used to work
14 hours straight in a club.
It has been standard policy in the milongas for years that there is no
entrada charged the first hour and the last hour. If we arrived at 1am when
Cachirulo intended to close at 2am, why did we have to pay?
I didn't hear or read anything about a 2am closure for "winter" hours. It
would seem logical for them to stay open longer during the summer months of
tourist season.
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 00:14:04 +0100
From: Christian Lüthen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: Inflation hits Buenos Aires milongas
part II
C.
------- Forwarded message follows -------
From: Christian Lüthen <christian.luethen@gmx.net>
To: tANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Inflation hits Buenos Aires milongas
Date sent: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:30:35 +0100
On 12 Feb 2006 at 21:38, Dr Zarlengo wrote:
> In the past 12 years, I have seen properties in Central and South
> America continue to rise. It has been on the rise in the Middle East
> as well and of course Spain. What I could have bought 10 years ago
> for $70,000 US is over $300,000 US.
Is that soooo special? Only to latin america?
Estate/houses prices virtually exploded down here in the netherlands for the last 2 decades
(up to absolutely ridiculous prices) ... but no one would because of that have the idea to
charge tourists out of principle more than locals!
On 14 Feb 2006 at 7:01, Russell Ranno wrote:
> I think this all needed to be said. The entire thread demonstates zero
> cultural awareness and an appalling lack of sensitivity. Cough up a couple
> bucks to support the milonga,
Poor Russell!
The words you use only show your arrogance!
"cough up" some money you write in total disrespect!
[btw, for your information: "bucks" is US-money, Argentina is an independent country with it's
own freely convertible currency called 'Peso'!]
The "generous missionary"-role, the "great good-harted spender" will never *earn* you
respect of the local people ... to the maximum it will *buy* you some 'friends' ... not more!
On 13 Feb 2006 at 15:06, Hector P. Pereyra User wrote:
> I understand that in this list, the topic is about everything but tango. I
> respect that and always keep my silence (why will I just send another stupid
> email complaining)
>
> Now I think it is different. It really sucks to see you guys dissecting my
> country, it's culture and it's economy based on your own petty and greedy
> needs.
Just another posting full of self-pity ... and blaming the surrounding world for argentinas
problems ... :-(
Hmm, allthough I do not at all agree with the very often practise way of throwing around
money ("buck") of our north american friends (as you can read ie. on other places in my
posting) I have to stress one of the strongest point of "the american dream": You can modifiy
your own fortune yourself! You just have to get going and start working! Sleaves up and
action!
Just one detailed point in reply to your posting:
> Perhaps with a better economy and education we would be in a better
> disposition.
Education never was a problem in argentina as education down there is / was very good.
That is that way it became a problem as all the young educated people had no difficulty
leaving (alone) their country when the crisis came.
------- End of forwarded message -------
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 00:14:05 +0100
From: Christian Lüthen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: Inflation hits Buenos Aires milongas
I wrote this yesterday, took quite a while, but somehow the posting did not get through.
Therefore I sent it again earlier tonight but it did not come back to the list neither. To check
wether there was a problem with provider I send an "test, ignore" posting which actually came
back. As I can neither rule out that long postings are blocked (pity as I tried to avoid multiple
postings) nor that it got censored I have to send it again 'piece by piece'.
Enjoy! :-)
Christian
------- Forwarded message follows -------
From: Christian Lüthen <christian.luethen@gmx.net>
To: tANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Inflation hits Buenos Aires milongas
Date sent: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:30:35 +0100
Hola list,
due to work I couldn't reply earlier ... and I will fit my different replies into one long posting.
[tango-l-policies force me to do so (limited numbers of postings a day), allthough I believe
that readability is better with one-to-one-replies.]
Therefore: Beware of long posting! :-)))
On 12 Feb 2006 at 16:42, NANCY wrote:
> I have been going to BsAs for eight years now and
> always stay for a month. You are correct about the
> level of dancing ( among other things). Portland,
> Denver, and Atlanta all have dancers who are more
> creative, more musical, more democratic in their
> choice of partners and they do not try to hustle
> lessons or sex while they are dancing with you. Will
> I continue to go to BsAs? Of course - for all the
> reasons you mention, but I will be doing other things
> besides tango - last year I went to the opera which is
> 1/5 theprice of The Met in NYC, to a theater
> production, to several museums and to many fine
> restaurants. I love the city, with or without tango.
:-)) That's a totally different story (and I totally agree [Bs.As. without Teatro Colon isn't
complete - one of the high-temples of culture in the world]) ... but still that does not justify
tourists to be ripped off!
> And how can those folks be productive at work if they
> are out dancing every night until 3:00am????
> Hmm.....could that have an effect on the economy?
Good point, very good point.
Also a lot of the tango-fanatics around the world should consider this point when they
idealize the world of Bs.As. milongas ... real life is totally different. And yes: there's a lot of
drug-abuse in the Bs.As. milongas (it wasn't only in 'La Catedral') ... no one can keep on
running that night-life-pace only on endorphines for a longer period!
On 13 Feb 2006 at 14:29, astrid wrote:
> Anyway, I don't believe in all this stuff about the Peso vs. the dollar
> rate. This is like the Bali rikshaw drivers telling me they have raised
> their prices because the exchange rate is different. Some excuse ! I am no
> economist, but for all I know, prices depend on the local GNP, and that
> makes no difference for tourists and locals.
Good point and comparision ... and totally right! Anything other is rip-off ... not really
motivating to make you come back! :-(
------- End of forwarded message -------
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 00:14:04 +0100
From: Christian Lüthen <christian.luethen@GMX.NET>
Subject: Re: Inflation hits Buenos Aires milongas
part III - final
C.
------- Forwarded message follows -------
From: Christian Lüthen <christian.luethen@gmx.net>
To: tANGO-L@MITVMA.MIT.EDU
Subject: Re: [TANGO-L] Inflation hits Buenos Aires milongas
Date sent: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 15:30:35 +0100
On 13 Feb 2006 at 13:45, Michael Figart II wrote:
> I'm a little surprised at responses on this subject.....Christian says
> that milonga entradas are not reasonable for tourists "if you go out
> every night for a couple of weeks"; do you expect a discount for this?
No! Of course not! But I do expect no surcharge neither!!
> Christian also says that milongas in BsAs are more expensive than
> Netherlands, which are 3 to 7 euro (app US$3.60-$8.50). The most
> expensive milonga I attended (to see Los Reyes at Ideal) was 12ARP
> (US$4.00). Most milongas were 7 to 8ARP (US$2.25-$2.75). It sounds like
> Netherlands is less expensive than the US; here in Houston (which is a
> much cheaper city than New York), milongas run US$8-12.
All right, let me explain again with another comparison:
When I first came to Bs.As. (on invitation of musians, I could stay privately -
otherwise I would not at all be able to afford the whole trip at the time) I still
lived in germany. Entry fee to my local weekly milonga in Dresden at the
time was 5 DM [equaling 2,50 US$ at the time] ... in Bs.As. I had to pay 5 -
7 Pesos entry fees (which was Peso = US$ / 1 =1 at the time) ... double to
triple the price! NO one cared, no one gave me a discount because I came
from a country with an undervalued currency and they were living in a
country with an highly overvalued currency. Got the point?
> I just came back from a month in BsAs, and found it an extremely
> economical city. The milongas were cheap (notwithstanding any
> inflation), food was cheap, taxis were cheap, everything is inexpensive.
> The most expensive items are coffee, and bottled water in a restaurant.
> Best spinach pizza I've ever had, about US$4 at Sr Telmo. An order of
> ravioli to go made two meals for me for a total of US$2.50. Women's
> shoes at Flabella (yes, I had to bring back six pair!) US$48. Tenderloin
> with fries US$5-$7.
The "cheap vacation story" ... again and again.
"cheap" does not automatically mean that prices are justified or reasonable!
Prices are based on locals circumstances ... taking more from tourists just
because they are tourists is no argument, no ethical comportment.
> Alberto talks about abuse, and mentions airport prices. Airports
> everywhere are abusive. It's dumb to buy most anything at an airport.
I think Albertos point is that during earlier times prices even at the airport
were (more or less) reasonable, but nowadays are getting exagerated. And
Alberto is right in criticising this! Being ripped-off at mostly any airport off the
world is not justification for introducing this practise to the rest which are still
reasonable! Also realize: by adopting this international ripp-off-airport-prices
locals / argentinians will no longer be able to live their typical style of life and
just have a little 'cortado' or equal. This kills local culture.
> I met no rich people in the milongas (except for tourists). My
> impression is that many natives struggle to get by.
As mentioned in another posting: how can locals frequent milongas every
day? If I would try to go out to milongas every night of the week down here I
also would be in serious financial problems! And, refering to my statement
above about milonga prices when I still lived in Dresden: I was financially
not able to go out to a milonga twice a week, the weekend milonga with live-
music I had to re-consider also money-wise! Get the point?
> There was much less
> pan-handling than when I was there two years ago, but still many
> "cartoneros" gathering up recyclables to sell. I love Buenos Aires and
> it's people, and do not begrudge them trying to make a buck. I wish the
> best for them, and hope that salaries go up faster than their inflation.
I also do like & love Bs.As.! I also do want the best for the locals, that their
economy rises agains asap.
But I also do realize that there's a big direct and indirect salary-cut
undergoing at least down here in europe at the moment: salaries do not rise
(therefore fall behind inflation), working-hours per week get prolonged (for
the same end-salary, that is resulting in cutting down the salary per working-
hour), pension-age is pushed up a couple of years (just happened at 1st of
jan. for the netherlands) ... so we do face the same problems as others,
even as argentinians!
> I do not even mind paying a slightly higher price at the milongas than
> the natives (although I don't think I ever had to).
You are probably too naďve to realize as you feel soo good & generous ...
... once again: respect can not be earned, it only could be earned! And this
asks for non- monetary investments!
> Every place has something different to offer the tanguero, but Buenos
> Aires has more than any other. Where else can you choose between 30 or
> 40 milongas on weekend nights,
Hmm ... really sooo many? Count carefully ... and also realize that one
organizer is running the same milonga on different days a week ... same
circus every day. Also realize that some of these milongas are very small,
more neighbourhood-style (which can be a great experience, but do not
expect any high level dancing ... but a lot of argentinian culture and local
flavour ... there you're welcome because you come, not because you pay
more!) ... but they are counted in these numbers.
> hear so many great orchestras,
With so terrible sound-equippement, much too loud ... =:-o
(and I love live music down there, but ...)
> dance with so many great dancers?
Didn't someone just recently complaind on the list that there were momre
than 70% foreigner present in the Bs.As. milonga ... ok., you're right: great
dancers! :-)
So much ... enjoy tango, in argentina, your home-country, anywhere!
Christian
------- End of forwarded message -------
Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 22:41:39 -0700
From: "tho x. bui" <blahx3@EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Inflation hits Buenos Aires milongas
>...[snip-a-roo]...
Ahhhh.... Women, Tourists, Locals, Dancers..Yer all alike.
As I've said to my wife, "Dancers! You can't lead with them, you can't
lead without them!"
She'd looked at me and asked in a surprised tone, "Lead? You?"
Tho
Tho X. Bui
https://home.earthlink.net/~blahx3/thoxbui/
Date: Thu, 16 Feb 2006 16:12:02 +0900
From: astrid <astrid@RUBY.PLALA.OR.JP>
Subject: Re: Inflation hits Buenos Aires milongas
> As I've said to my wife, "Dancers! You can't lead with them, you can't
> lead without them!"
>
> She'd looked at me and asked in a surprised tone, "Lead? You?"
>
> Tho
What a nice guy you are, Tho. ; )
Sigh, yes, and women say:"The men mostly can't lead, but we can't dance
without them." You guys ever experience that -"these three songs with that
one dancer made up for the whole rest of the boring evening, enough to keep
me hooked, this is crazy"-feeling?
Astrid
