3823 Invitation Follow-ups
Date: Mon, 19 Sep 2005 20:22:31 -0700
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Invitation Follow-ups
Thank you for all of the responses about men turning
down invitations. How about a few follow-ups?
1 - Guys, how do you handle it when the woman is rude
if you do not accept her invitation, despite your best
attempts at being polite?
2 - If the women are not rude in your community about
being turned down, how were they socialized to accept
being turned down gracefully?
3 - How can a woman ask for a dance without making it
difficult for him to say no? Or how do you prefer her
to ask for a dance?
Thanks,
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Tue, 20 Sep 2005 10:00:59 -0700
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Invitation Follow-ups
Seems that I need to elaborate a little with some
examples that have continuously occurred over the
years.
The problem stems from women physically grabbing men
as they come off of the floor (using the tango hug as
an excuse), following the men to the bathroom and
waiting outside, giving attitude about not being asked
to dance at last night's milonga, saying "f--- you"
when the guy explains that he already has a partner
for a particular dance, complaints if he dances a
second tanda with someone, etc.
Women can be aggressive and manipulative. If a woman
gets a second tanda, she can get glares and attitude
from other women.
The result is men who feel as if they do not have a
choice but to say yes to a woman's invitation if they
want to be polite. It means that he dances but
doesn't enjoy it.
If a man is approached by women at every single tanda
(seriously) to dance, how is he to dance with the
women he really wants to dance with? I am referring
not to just good partners but also the beginning women
that they want to encourage.
Many of the women here, by the way, are nice. But the
aggressiveness is starting to become a bigger problem.
Does anyone else have this issue?
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 09:37:47 -0400
From: seth <s1redh@GMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Invitation Follow-ups: Female Chauvinist Pigs, a book by Ariel Levy
Trini,
Some explanations to the predicament described by you may be found
in the book by Ariel Levy, Female Chauvinist Pigs.
This book shows the results from the marriage of serious feminism and
irreverent
sexual liberation: the death of modesty.
Wendy Shalit writes in the "Wall Street Journal:"
"[...] "The 'raunch culture' is now so ubiquitous that we take it for
granted.
Young women wear shirts emblazoned with 'Porn Star' accross the chest.
Teen stores sell 'Cat in the Hat' thongs underwear. Parents treat their
daughters' friends to 'cardio striptease' classes for birthday parties.
This is liberation?".
Then, the bullying females at milongas..the glowing reviews of
"Kiss & Tango"...
"Only if feminism can embrace the more traditional ways that men and women
have
courted throughout the ages can it have anything practical to offer youg
women.
To the extent that feminists dismiss as worthless anything that is perceived
as
'backtracking' they only help to perpetuate the 'raunch culture' - even as
they
deplore its effects"
Ditto for Tango.
Seth
On 9/20/05, Trini y Sean (PATangoS) <patangos@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Seems that I need to elaborate a little with some
> examples that have continuously occurred over the
> years.
>
> The problem stems from women physically grabbing men
> as they come off of the floor (using the tango hug as
> an excuse), following the men to the bathroom and
> waiting outside, giving attitude about not being asked
> to dance at last night's milonga, saying "f--- you"
> when the guy explains that he already has a partner
> for a particular dance, complaints if he dances a
> second tanda with someone, etc.
>
> Women can be aggressive and manipulative. If a woman
> gets a second tanda, she can get glares and attitude
> from other women.
>
> The result is men who feel as if they do not have a
> choice but to say yes to a woman's invitation if they
> want to be polite. It means that he dances but
> doesn't enjoy it.
>
> If a man is approached by women at every single tanda
> (seriously) to dance, how is he to dance with the
> women he really wants to dance with? I am referring
> not to just good partners but also the beginning women
> that they want to encourage.
>
> Many of the women here, by the way, are nice. But the
> aggressiveness is starting to become a bigger problem.
>
> Does anyone else have this issue?
>
> Trini de Pittsburgh
>
>
>
> PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
> Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social
> dance.
> https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
>
>
>
>
>
Date: Wed, 21 Sep 2005 07:18:12 -0700
From: Yale Tango Club <yaletangoclub@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Invitation Follow-ups
The way I see it, people (of either gender) become aggressive when they find that without it, they don't get the quality and quantity of dances they desire. Meaning, their dancing skills, manners, personality and appearance don't add up to a package that the rest of us want to dance with voluntarily.
The tactics you describe are not very different from what I see some men do every milonga, except the foul language. Of course in a woman it is less traditionally expected. But I think equality should go both ways.
If the women get to bully, the guys get to decline.
It would be better if everybody used the cabeceo and we were all nice and civilized. If you've ever looked at evolutionary strategies, you know that a community of nice friendly cabeceo-users are very vulnerable to invasion by shoulder tappers. The natives take a while to start standing up to the brutality. Once they are used to it, the situation becomes stable once more. However you rarely get that far, and the shoulder tappers probably always get more dances per invitation than the nice people do. The only way to not get left in the dust is either you become a bully too (works only if everybody else remains nice), or you become a resister (this doesn't work if you're the only one because then you're the one getting left out).
Still, the shoulder tappers are unlikely to ever stop. It's just not in their interest to become nice, as we would end up dancing with them less, not more. So rather than let yourself be used, you should just take a deep breath and say No.
I think the men who get a "f*** you" have every right to (carefully) lay their hand on the arm of the female (not a lady, obviously), look sternly into her eyes and say "You've crossed the line". If it was a guy displaying such behavior, the outcry would be deafening.
Tine
"Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM> wrote:Seems that I need to elaborate a little with some
examples that have continuously occurred over the
years.
The problem stems from women physically grabbing men
as they come off of the floor (using the tango hug as
an excuse), following the men to the bathroom and
waiting outside, giving attitude about not being asked
to dance at last night's milonga, saying "f--- you"
when the guy explains that he already has a partner
for a particular dance, complaints if he dances a
second tanda with someone, etc.
Women can be aggressive and manipulative. If a woman
gets a second tanda, she can get glares and attitude
from other women.
The result is men who feel as if they do not have a
choice but to say yes to a woman's invitation if they
want to be polite. It means that he dances but
doesn't enjoy it.
If a man is approached by women at every single tanda
(seriously) to dance, how is he to dance with the
women he really wants to dance with? I am referring
not to just good partners but also the beginning women
that they want to encourage.
Many of the women here, by the way, are nice. But the
aggressiveness is starting to become a bigger problem.
Does anyone else have this issue?
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
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