5653 Is it Balls, or just a Heel?
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 17:55:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
?Tango is a Man/Woman equation..anything done to modify that will fail to produce
THE Tango feeeeeling.? It is the guy who asks the girl to dance. He can be refused.
Some get refused at least once every night...it's hard. One good justify it to oneself
by saying..well, she's just a...? fill in the blanks but it withering and reduces the field
with which one can dance. Things get worse and worser for a close embrace guy dancer.
The woman can place her hand on his right shoulder saying: this close and no closer..
That hurts too. Self examination is always a problem; is there enough variety? Is the
embrace too much or too little? Am I not providing enough 'variety' ?? enough Nuevo??
Add to that, the fact that the guy has to drive the dance, he has to feeeeeeel it!
If he don't feeeeel it he won't do a good job dancing it..and so, he can't dance them all.
He has to wait.
?One hears a lot about how the guy has to 'take care of' the woman, provide safe space,
listen to her, etc. etc.... what about the care and feeding of the lead???? Is it any wonder
why there are so few gus around and why they drop to the wayside one by one????
Last nite, a woman remarked to me in a practica; "Move your right arm lower you are lifting
mine!"...hmm, that's a new complaint and so I asked " How tall are you?" in order to file the information and apply it where appropriate.."What does that have to do with anything?" I get back in an incredulous, pissed-off voice....do I dance with her again?? Am I stupid?
?
Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 23:53:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Mario,
It's important that you dance ONLY with the ladies who really want to dance
with you in the way that you want to dance. Otherwise, there's just no point.
You'll soon find there are plenty - and forget the rest. If a girl turns you down
at a milonga, without a good reason, don't ask her again. As you improve,
it'll be her loss.
I've known quite a few girls like that - and they sit for most of the night.
But if it's a practica and she gives constructive advice, maybe you should listen.
Jack
> From: Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com>
> Things get worse and worser for a close embrace guy
> dancer.
> The woman can place her hand on his right shoulder saying: this close and no
> closer..
> That hurts too.?
>
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 09:44:35 -0300
From: robin tara <robinctara@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel?
To: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<9e1cc4860906050544u11860438kb71e1fe8dc7cac86@mail.gmail.com>
Jack wrote:
"If a girl turns you down at a milonga, without a good reason, don't ask her
again. As you improve, it'll be her loss."
Dear Jack,
There are so many unexplainable reasons why a woman might refuse a dance
that it is unfair to blackball a woman because she won't dance with you at
that particular moment.
I remember a night when I had been waiting for a wonderful dancer to catch
my eye and ask for a dance. The moment he finally chose to ask was just
after I had declined to dance with a guy who is rough and abusive on the
dance floor. I had to say no - I had to risk the fate of never dancing with
him again because I was using proper milonga etiquette. And there was no way
to explain it.
So in the first case I turned down a guy and hoped he would never ask me to
dance again and in the second case I turned down a guy I would have happily
danced with all night.
How can a woman decline a dance and make sure the man understands that it is
not him, it is the particular circumstance?
Best,
Robin
https://www.taratangoshoes.com
https://www.tangotique.com
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 06:04:41 -0700 (PDT)
From: NANCY <ningle_2000@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel?
To: tango-l@mit.edu, Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com>
--- On Thu, 6/4/09, Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com> wrot
> ?One hears a lot about how the guy has to 'take care of'
> the woman, provide safe space,
> listen to her, etc. etc.... what about the care and feeding
> of the lead????
Mario, you take care of the woman because she can't see behind herself. And you are in charge of leading and indicating the speed and size of her movements. I am quite sure that if you started to step backward into someone, that she would indicate, by pressure of her left arm, that you should stop.
> Last nite, a woman remarked to me in a practica; "Move your
> right arm lower you are lifting
> mine!"...hmm, that's a new complaint and so I asked " How
> tall are you?" in order to file the information and apply it
> where appropriate.."What does that have to do with
> anything?" I get back in an incredulous, pissed-off
> voice....do I dance with her again?? Am I stupid?
The point of a practica is to improve. If you don't want suggestions, then don't go to a practica. And I am with the woman on this one: you are dancing with her. Do you know how tall you are? If yes, then you should have a good idea of how tall she is. But her height has no bearing on her suggestion. The real point is: don't lift the woman ( of any size or height) and throw her off axis by raising her left side. I call it the "I'm a little teapot" embrace and I hate it.
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:24:06 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel?
To: Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Mario wrote:
> The woman can place her hand on his right shoulder saying: this
> close and no closer...That hurts too.
That's entirely a self-inflicted wound. I suggest shedding some
sense of entitlement. You'll see that the world is a much
less frustrating place when you consider it's full of gifts to be
bestowed upon you (a dance, even if not exactly in the embrace
you'd prefer) rather than entitlements to be denied to you.
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 14:58:39 +0100 (GMT+01:00)
From: "johnofbristol@tiscali.co.uk" <johnofbristol@tiscali.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel?
To: tangolist <tango-l@mit.edu>
I have been dancing since 1961 and one of the first lessons I had to
learn was: if someone turns you down for a dance, for any reason or
none, don't EVER ask her again. The rejection will only be crueller
next time.
John Ward
Bristol, UK
Get ?25 off a case of wine with Tiscali's Naked Wines offer - www.tiscali.co.uk/wine
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 16:45:51 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
johnofbristol@tiscali.co.uk wrote:
> I have been dancing since 1961 and one of the first lessons I had to
> learn was: if someone turns you down for a dance, for any reason or
> none, don't EVER ask her again. The rejection will only be crueller
> next time.
>
And, of course, protecting you from bruises to your ego is something
of paramount importance which trumps all other considerations?
No pain, no gain.
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 10:46:17 -0400
From: Ilene Marder <imhmedia@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel?
To: robin tara <robinctara@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu, Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Hi Robin,
I've had this happen too. I just tell the dancer I want to dance with (
but cannot because I just turned someone down), that indeed I have just
turned somone down and that I hoped he would ask me the next tanda. I
kind of whispered it to him and he completely understood and did ask me
again that night.
Followers have the right to dance with whom they want, just as leaders
do when they chose to ask a particular person. There are times I have
said yes to someone because the situation was right, and no to the same
person because the situation wasn't right for me. If the decline comes
nicely, there is usually little fallout.
I.
robin tara wrote:
>Jack wrote:
>"If a girl turns you down at a milonga, without a good reason, don't ask her
>again. As you improve, it'll be her loss."
>
>Dear Jack,
>
>There are so many unexplainable reasons why a woman might refuse a dance
>that it is unfair to blackball a woman because she won't dance with you at
>that particular moment.
>
>I remember a night when I had been waiting for a wonderful dancer to catch
>my eye and ask for a dance. The moment he finally chose to ask was just
>after I had declined to dance with a guy who is rough and abusive on the
>dance floor. I had to say no - I had to risk the fate of never dancing with
>him again because I was using proper milonga etiquette. And there was no way
>to explain it.
>
>So in the first case I turned down a guy and hoped he would never ask me to
>dance again and in the second case I turned down a guy I would have happily
>danced with all night.
>
>How can a woman decline a dance and make sure the man understands that it is
>not him, it is the particular circumstance?
>
>Best,
>
>Robin
>
>https://www.taratangoshoes.com
>https://www.tangotique.com
>
>
>
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 07:48:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel?
-- Mario <sopelote@yahoo.com> wrote: --
> Last nite, a woman remarked to me in a practica; "Move your right arm lower you are lifting mine!"...hmm, that's a new complaint and so I asked " How tall are you?" in order to file the information and apply it
> where appropriate.."What does that have to do with anything?" I get back in an incredulous, pissed-off voice....do I dance with her again? Am I stupid?
If you said it in an off-tone, then you get what you deserved. Otherwise, you're right - she's a heel. There's no need for anyone at a practica to give someone an attitude. Plus, why couldn't she rearrange her arm so that it's not affected by your arm?
Being 5'4", I rarely have to adjust my right arm when I lead, but tall men have more issues with this. I bet she's never considered taken that into account and hasn't figured out that she should adjust too. When I follow men of all different heights, I am always adjusting my left arm so that it doesn't interfere with the leader. For tall guys, I embrace him lower down on his back and my arm clears his arm.
Although, gentlemen, it's very chivalrous of you to take care of the women, please remember that women also need to take care of the leader if they want to become good dancers, too.
-- robin tara <robinctara@gmail.com> wrote:
> I remember a night when I had been waiting for a wonderful
> dancer to catch my eye and ask for a dance. The moment he finally chose to ask was just after I had declined to dance with a guy who is rough and
> abusive on the dance floor. I had to say no - I had to risk the fate of
> never dancing with him again because I was using proper milonga etiquette.
Robin, I would have gone ahead and accepted the dance with the second guy. Perhaps the first guy will get a clue. Or he might think you're a ____, and he might not ever ask you again. Hooray!
> I have been dancing since 1961 and one of the first lessons I had to
> learn was: if someone turns you down for a dance, for any reason or
> none, don't EVER ask her again. The rejection will only be crueller
> next time.
>
> John Ward
> Bristol, UK
I hope you're saying this in jest, John, because you'd be missing out on a lot of good dances. But if you want to let fear rule your dancing...whatever. Though perhaps you can teach that to Robin's first guy. The women might be grateful.
Happy tangos to all,
Trini de Pittsburgh
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 17:20:03 +0100
From: Donald Sinclair <donald.sinclair@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel?
To: robin tara <robinctara@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<69c128920906050920i2ae7bd03n549ea9fc28136f0b@mail.gmail.com>
On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 1:44 PM, robin tara <robinctara@gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Jack,
<snip>
> How can a woman decline a dance and make sure the man understands that it is
> not him, it is the particular circumstance?
Why can't you talk to the man you want to dance with?
It sounds as if you are placing too many restrictions on yourself -
were you dancing somewhere with strict tango police?
If either leader had adhered to strict milonga etiquette,
he would not have managed to catch your eye for the cabeceo -
in which case no refusal could have happened.
Since this didn't happen, it is unreasonable for anyone to insist
that you stick to strict milonga etiquette.
Regards,
Donald
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 10:57:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel?
> From: robin tara <robinctara@gmail.com>
> Dear Jack,
>
> There are so many unexplainable reasons why a woman might refuse a dance
> that it is unfair to blackball a woman because she won't dance with you at
> that particular moment.
>
Robin,
I did say ... "without a good reason" and Ilene gave a perfect answer ...
"I just tell the dancer I want to dance with ( but cannot because I just
turned someone down), that indeed I have just turned somone down
and that I hoped he would ask me the next tanda. I kind of whispered
it to him and he completely understood and did ask me again that night."
Men are not stupid. A simple expalnation is all that is required. We know
[or should know]?when a lady is turning us down because she just doesn't
want to dance with us. So, why ask again?
One girl told me she 'just leaving'. 20 minutes later she was still there,
happily dancing with other guys. What am I supposed to think?
Jack
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:19:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel?
I suppose the use of good old cabeceo has its advantages, no?
===================================
seek, appreciate, and create beauty
this life is not a rehearsal
===================================
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:25:46 -0400
From: Steve Littler <sl@stevelittler.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel?/Cabeceo
Yes, that would be great! But pretty much no one uses it in America.
I've never seen it "taught" in any Tango classes here. When I try it, I
pretty much never get a glance back. The women don't even look for it
and entertain themselves chatting while they wait for someone to come
interrupt and ask them to dance. I've had popular dancers ask me at the
end of the night why I didn't ask them to dance that night when I had
tried to cabeceo them all night long. So now when I just go up to a
woman and ask for the dance, I pretty much dance all night.
(Heh - I do have a couple of close friends at my local milonga that I
can just nod to and they nod back and it is "on." But they are the
exception to the rule. I can't do that when I visit other milongas. When
I do get a decline, I always take it _very_ graciously. And try again
another time or another night. Usually the declines are from popular
dancers at the end of the evening whose feet are aching and may have
even taken their shoes off. Next time I ask earlier in the evening.)
I think it is just part of our American culture that nobody bothers to
teach it or enforce it here.
El Stevito la luna de noche de Gainesville :-)
Dubravko Kakarigi wrote:
> I suppose the use of good old cabeceo has its advantages, no?
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:54:26 -0400
From: Steve Littler <sl@stevelittler.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel?
To: tango-l@MIT.EDU
Mario wrote:
> One hears a lot about how the guy has to 'take care of' the woman, provide safe space,
> listen to her, etc. etc.... what about the care and feeding of the lead????
The leader ultimately doesn't need it. He just leads. And is gracious
about it.
> Is it any wonder
> why there are so few gus around and why they drop to the wayside one by one????
>
Usually I have found most women very encouraging as long as I was
enthusiastic and polite.
> Last nite, a woman remarked to me in a practica; "Move your right arm lower you are lifting
> mine!"...hmm, that's a new complaint
I'm 6'1" tall and I've had it before with short women. I had my short
lady instructor have to correct my technique on this so I don't repeat
it. It was common of me to lift the woman up, especially on rock-step
with pivot. That pulls the lady off balance/axis, makes her throw her
butt backwards to recover her balance and is uncomfortable for her. I
always take complaints back to my instructors to find out what to do to
correct what I am doing.
> and so I asked " How tall are you?" in order to file the information and apply it where appropriate.."What does that have to do with anything?" I get back in an incredulous, pissed-off voice
Depending on the context on how and when you asked it, it could be
offensive, or she could have been in a bad mood. This always a
possibility and so you always have to be gracious about these things,
even when they go from bad to worse. If you counter-react and can't
remain gracious under any circumstance no matter how rough, you'll get a
reputation other than being always gracious.
> ....do I dance with her again?
If she has a usually warm personality, and you are a gracious gentleman,
try to repair the upset, and yes, dance with her again once you have a
warm feeling for her again.
> Am I stupid?
>
Heh - sure. But you can fix that. :-)
El Stevito de Gainesville
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 16:15:06 -0400
From: Steve Littler <sl@stevelittler.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Refusing a dance... <was Re: Is it Balls, or
just a Heel?>
To: Tango-L List <tango-l@mit.edu>
Yes. Very good points Dubravko.
And I complicate it further myself by asking favorite partners ahead of
time for "the next Milonga" etc. Then maybe it's a slow milonga I don't
care for. Ugh. <shooting-self-in-foot>
Or a lady will ask me to dance, but it's a Milonga and she's too new for
that or too short for me to enjoy myself, and then I have to put her off
until another Tango tanda that's more suitable. But most of these ladies
I know pretty well and I can decline politely.
El Stevito de Gainesville
Dubravko Kakarigi wrote:
> In the absence of cabeceo, I find the situation even more complicated when a lady comes to ask me to dance and I do not want to dance with her or just do not wish to dance at the moment (tired, want to watch, not inspired by the music, whatever).
>
> I am also always utterly puzzled when some ask folks to dance the next tanda before they ever heard the first bar of the music, many times at the very end of the previous tanda/beginning of the cortina. It's totally amazing. I would not do it even with my most favorite dancing partner. How in the world do you know you'd want to dance at all? To me, if I do not like the music being played it is not likely that I would "give" my partner a good dance. So, what's up with that?
>
> ...dubravko
>
>
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:31:14 -0400
From: Endzone 102 <endzone102@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel?
<694bf47d0906051331r8dcb477se90f8a90d833515a@mail.gmail.com>
No, not really. How is being rejected from across a room any better than
being rejected to my face?
Indeed, there are a number of women on my 'do-not-dance" list.
-Greg G
On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 2:19 PM, Dubravko Kakarigi
<dubravko_2005@yahoo.com>wrote:
> I suppose the use of good old cabeceo has its advantages, no?
> ===================================
> seek, appreciate, and create beauty
> this life is not a rehearsal
> ===================================
>
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 13:46:05 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <tempehuck@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
<ecf43f370906051346y7be80951r47486305d2ac11a@mail.gmail.com>
On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Endzone 102<endzone102@gmail.com> wrote:
> No, not really. ?How is being rejected from across a room any better than
> being rejected to my face?
Because only she knows that you looked into her eyes and she
turned her head away in rejection, instead of the whole room watching
you marchy marchy clomp clomp clomp over to her table, ask her to
dance, and watch as she turns you down, and you marchy marchy clomp
clomp clomp back to your table with your tail between your legs, DUH.
Huck
Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 17:35:46 -0400
From: Ilene Marder <imhmedia@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel?
To: Huck Kennedy <tempehuck@gmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
well said Huck!
Huck Kennedy wrote:
>On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Endzone 102<endzone102@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>No, not really. How is being rejected from across a room any better than
>>being rejected to my face?
>>
>>
>
> Because only she knows that you looked into her eyes and she
>turned her head away in rejection, instead of the whole room watching
>you marchy marchy clomp clomp clomp over to her table, ask her to
>dance, and watch as she turns you down, and you marchy marchy clomp
>clomp clomp back to your table with your tail between your legs, DUH.
>
>Huck
>
>
>
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 18:39:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel?
To: tango-l@mit.edu
> From: Huck Kennedy <tempehuck@gmail.com>
>
> ? ? ? Because only she knows that you looked into her eyes and she
> turned her head away in rejection, instead of the whole room watching
> you marchy marchy clomp clomp clomp over to her table, ask her to
> dance, and watch as she turns you down, and you marchy marchy clomp
> clomp clomp back to your table with your tail between your legs, DUH.
>
Oh dear, Huck. Do you really feel like?that? Isn't it kinda pathetic? I would
have thought your self-esteem would be high enough not to be crushed by
a lady's rejection.. In my case, I smile, shrug and certainly don't return to
my table. I ask the nearest girl I can find to dance and pull out all the stops
to give her her best dance ever.
Jack
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 09:15:22 -0400
From: "David" <dchester@charter.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel?
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Robin,
We guys are rather simple creatures. If you tells us, then we'll
understand. If you don't tell us, then we won't understand (and then we
have to guess). In your experience, how often does a man accurately guess
what a woman is thinking?
: )
Regards,
David
-----Original Message-----
Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 09:44:35 -0300
From: robin tara <robinctara@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel?
How can a woman decline a dance and make sure the man understands that it is
not him, it is the particular circumstance?
From: Jack Dylan <jackdylan007@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, June 5, 2009 9:46:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Refusing a dance... <was Re: Is it Balls, or just a Heel?>
> From: Dubravko Kakarigi <dubravko_2005@yahoo.com>
>
> In the absence of cabeceo, I find the situation even more complicated when a
> lady comes to ask me to dance and I do not want to dance with her or just do not
> wish to dance at the moment (tired, want to watch, not inspired by the music,
> whatever).
>
Hi Dubravko,
You don't say what your response to the lady would be. In my case, I'd have
to be in real pain before I would turn down a lady's request to dance.
Jack
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 03:37:40 EDT
From: HBBOOGIE1@aol.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel?
To: imhmedia@yahoo.com, tempehuck@gmail.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Another problem I've witnessed is a man approaching a group of ladies,
extending his hand directly in front of the lady he's asking to dance with and
getting turned down so he simply moves to the next in line and asks her to
dance? All of the ladies know that she wasn't his first choice and how does
that make her feel? He just didn't want to clomp clomp clomp back across
the room empty handed.
Much better for everyone to get rejected from across the room if at all
possible I will often get within close range of a lady and catch her eye and
give her the nod.
David
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Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:09:23 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Is it Balls, or just a Heel?
--- On Sat, 6/6/09, HBBOOGIE1@aol.com <HBBOOGIE1@aol.com> wrote:
> Another problem I've witnessed is a man approaching a group of ladies,?
> extending his hand directly in front of the lady he's asking to dance with and getting turned down so he simply moves to the next in line
> and asks her to?dance? All of the ladies know that she wasn't his first
> choice and how does that make her feel? He just didn't want to clomp clomp clomp back across the? room empty handed.?
That doesn't bother me. I'm not about to begrudge someone's friendship with someone else or someone else's skill level. Occasionally, I'll joke about it with the guy.
When I'm the person that turns the guy down (excusing myself as needing a rest or something), and he moves to someone else that I'm sitting with (usually a friend), it doesn't seem to bother the other woman at all.
Trini de Pittsburgh
