561 Is it teaching OR coaching?
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 14:40:20 GMT
From: michael <tangomaniac@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Is it teaching OR coaching?
I've read a number of messages dealing with teaching at milongas and that it shouldn't be done. Generally, I agree with that statement but now I wonder if that statement is absolute.
At my last private lesson, my teacher explained the difference between teaching and coaching. If he shows me a new figure, that's teaching. If he grabs my left hand and forces it to move with the rest of my frame so the woman can execute a molinete, that's coaching.
Since dancing tango is considered the same (by some) as having sex with your clothes on, I say that what goes on between two consenting adults is their private business.
At last Monday's milonga in Washington, I danced with a beginner. (I didn't know she was a beginner when I asked.) We danced a tanda. She moved well but her right arm was too stiff. When the tanda was over, I asked her if I could make a suggestion. She said "yes" and I mentioned the importance of being soft so that she could feel the lead. She was grateful. Was I teaching -- OR was I coaching? Was I wrong to suggest? IF the woman wasn't upset, I don't see the problem.
Sometimes I'll try a difficult figure. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. When it doesn't work, sometimes, my partner will say "try that again." So I'll try it again and it usually works the second time. After the tanda, she sometimes want a graphic illustration and we will go to the side OFF THE FLOOR. Is it polite to turn down my partner's request for more information?
The same should hold when the woman wants to give the man feedback. (I'm sure most don't want to hear it but how else can men get better.) If the man is receptive, the woman should tell him "I couldn't feel the lead; you're squeezing my hand; etc.) Is the woman teaching -- OR is she coaching?
IMHO the rule about not teaching at milongas is based on men who want to teach women WHEN THE WOMEN HAVEN'T ASKED FOR ASSISTANCE. This reminds me of an episode from Abbott and Costello. (Oh, am I old!! So what. I can retire in 3 years.) Being a good boy scout, Costello, drags a woman standing at a street corner across the street through moving traffic. After they reach the opposite side of the street, she hits him over the head with her umbrella. Costello screams "Why are you doing that?" The woman replies "I didn't want to cross the street. I was waiting for a bus. And there it goes!!"
Tango is a private, intimate moment, and as long as BOTH partners want to experiment and learn together WITHOUT DISRUPTING the milonga, I don't feel they should be stopped.
Michael
Getting less confused in Washington, DC as time goes on
Still hoping to retire to New York even after reading the
"New York Times" real estate section
I'd rather be dancing argentine tango
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 12:35:13 -0600
From: Tom Stermitz <stermitz@RAGTIME.ORG>
Subject: Re: Is it teaching OR coaching?
>
>The same should hold when the woman wants to give the man feedback.
>(I'm sure most don't want to hear it but how else can men get
>better.) If the man is receptive, the woman should tell him "I
>couldn't feel the lead; you're squeezing my hand; etc.) Is the woman
>teaching -- OR is she coaching?
>
>IMHO the rule about not teaching at milongas is based on men who
>want to teach women WHEN THE WOMEN HAVEN'T ASKED FOR ASSISTANCE.
>This ...
>
>Tango is a private, intimate moment, and as long as BOTH partners
>want to experiment and learn together WITHOUT DISRUPTING the
>milonga, I don't feel they should be stopped.
White Knights vs Black Nights.
Men teaching women at the milongas & the practices is probably among
the top 5 reasons why women leave tango.
I know it happens all over...the men get a lot of thrills showing a
woman, especially a new woman how to dance. A hot new babe shows up
at the dance and five guys are ready to go teach her, usually guys
who can't get dances with the more experienced women.
Is there anything more insulting to an experienced woman, when a new
guy says something like "You were supposed to CROSS here." or worse,
"You're supposed to gancho me." She is thinking, (and usually not
saying) "Well, I'll cross if you LEAD me to cross, and why would I
want to gancho you, I'm not THAT kind of woman!".
Teaching at a dance is sleazy, not caring...EVEN IF IT SEEMS LIKE SHE
MIGHT LIKE SOME HELP.
It creates a very negative energy, in part because the male-leader &
female-follower situation already favors the man in the power
relationship. It amplifies insecurity and control issues, something
that all beginners in tango are trying to figure out.
It may be an ego boost for a guy to show his new-found skill, but it
is an ego drain to the woman. He says "Let me help you", but she
hears "you're wrong, your wrong, you're wrong!"
Psychologically, women spend enough time trying to be correct and "do
the right thing". In tango the energy should be "You are a woman, you
are a QUEEN."
As Sergio & Carlos Lima point out, a good leader can simplify the
vocabulary and lead even a fairly new woman in a wonderful, musical
dance. There is a very small set of skills a woman needs to follow,
if she isn't doing ochos & turns. Back ochos don't take much either.
Then you can complement her on how beautiful she is, how much she
feels the music, how welcome she is to have come tonight, how you'd
love to dance with her again later...
That is what a white night does.
--
-----
"To my way of thinking the tango is, above all, rhythm,
nerve, force, character...I tried to restore to the tango
its masculine quality." -- Juan D'Arienzo (1949)
-----
Tom Stermitz
- Stermitz@Ragtime.org
- 303-725-5963
- https://www.tango.org/dance/EternaTeaching.html
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 14:09:47 -0700
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@ENSMTP1.EAS.ASU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Is it teaching OR coaching?
Someone wrote:
>IMHO the rule about not teaching at milongas is based on men who
>want to teach women WHEN THE WOMEN HAVEN'T ASKED FOR ASSISTANCE.
Even if she has asked, it's still rude to all the other
dancers to teach her on the milonga floor because it disrupts
the natural flow of the ronda, both in terms of movement and
emotional atmosphere. In my humble opinion.
Huck
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 18:43:31 -0300
From: SMC Administracion <adm@SMCAR.COM.AR>
Subject: Is it teaching OR coaching?
Huck Keneddy wrote
" Even if she has asked, it's still rude to all the other
dancers to teach her on the milonga floor because it disrupts the natural
flow of the ronda, both in terms of movement and emotional atmosphere. In
my humble opinion.
"
When I started to go to milongas in Buenos Aires (1999) one thing that
intriged me happened at Almagro milonga ( unfortunately closed later).
The tango lesson ended, say , at 9.30/10 pm, and the milonga started at 11
pm .There was almost an hour of "interlude" . It was weird , but later ,
when I get used to this system, I found it was a wise measure.
When the lesson ended, the students return to their houses, and later came
back (or not) to the milonga, but with this break, the "teachers" and
"coachs" were out of place , since the atmosphere of the milonga was
different from the tango lesson, there was people arriving to dance , neatly
dressed , and there was not a rush to jump to the milonga to frenzy dance
all the tandas ( I was one of those , shame on myself :)
This subject is not usually commented by local teachers, but the milonga is
one thing, and the lesson is another thing.Stop.
If i am attending a lesson, and the teacher asks my opinion of my
performance and the performance of my dancing partner , I will try to be as
honest as possible without hurting feelings (mine included).
But at the milonga, I refrain , absolutely, to make the slightest comment,
when I am dancing, or when I am watching other dancers . I respect those
dancers , they are dancing. I am sitting at the table . I appreciate the guy
that goes with his dare face to ask the woman to dance ( this is always a
matter of self esteem for the man , to be acepted to dance by the woman
.Also the contrary, no matter how you politely/cordially are refused, it
hurts ).
I appreciate also the woman that dances well, and adjust the dancing to what
the man proposes . There are some of this "milongueras" locally . You can
see them dancing close, open ,milonga, valsecito , with different men,
adjusting what it is possible to do in a sometimes overcrowded floor.
I think that it is not a matter of coaching or teaching at the milonga. It
is an extremely personal exchange between two human beings , wether they
succeded or failed in their attempts to build something between, it is still
a personal matter. Seconds out .
Warm regards
Alberto Gesualdi
Buenos Aires
>
> Huck
>
>
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 14:38:58 -0700
From: Elemer Dubrovay <dubrovay@JUNO.COM>
Subject: Fw: Re: [TANGO-L] Is it teaching OR coaching?
Very good, this is by far the best argument against teaching at the
milongas.
Here in Seattle we have a Practica dance once a week, the idea is to
practice and learn new steps and figures and not to do it at the regular
milongas.
Elemer
Someone wrote:
>IMHO the rule about not teaching at milongas is based on men who
>want to teach women WHEN THE WOMEN HAVEN'T ASKED FOR ASSISTANCE.
Even if she has asked, it's still rude to all the other
dancers to teach her on the milonga floor because it disrupts
the natural flow of the ronda, both in terms of movement and
emotional atmosphere. In my humble opinion.
Huck
LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
