637  Ladies Choice etc.

Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2002 17:09:59 -0400
From: Robinne Gray <rlg2@CORNELL.EDU>
Subject: Ladies Choice etc.

I wouldn't be too thrilled about milongas where all dances are Ladies'
Choice, probably because such a situation is too contrived, and I don't
think reasonable adults require such contrivances. To me, the tradition of
men-do-all-the-asking is *also* too much socially engineering, and it
persists because it's familiar and we've been bred to it, not because it is
more "natural" or biologically determined or in harmony with universal law
or whatever.

I'm hearing that men, like women, are made uncomfortable if they feel
hounded. Or as one guy told me: "I'm starting to refine my position on the
subject. It's not so much women asking men that bothers me. It's more that
the 'predators' push their way past each other, and many other
leads...". So let's be clear that it's rudeness of a non-gender-specific
variety that creates social discomfort, NOT the fact that women might ask
for a dance. Men, like women, recoil from anything that carries the whiff
of desperation. Maybe guys never seem to mind my asking because I'm not
hovering around waiting to pounce. If you use common sense and good
manners it's unlikely you'll alienate anyone except the most diehard
traditionalists. I also liked Robin Tara's suggestions for making an
'indirect' invitation.

~Robinne

Nitin Kibe asked me to share this with the list, since he's having some
trouble sending it:

>I think women asking, and routinely being accepted, could be a temporary
>phase. Once the novelty wears off (or the social capital of
>being-accepted-because-asking-is-exceptional is exhausted), women may be
>not-accepted perhaps as often as men are, with the usual provisos
>mentioned by other posters (good dancers, chemistry, etc etc).
>
>Progress? Perhaps but then again perhaps not.
>
>BTW, I heard an interesting construction in NYC milongas: some men invited
>women with "Are you dancing?", saying "No" to which is presumably less
>negative than to the more common invitation "Would you like to dance (with
>me)?"
>
>Good wishes to all.
>Nitin Kibe

Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2002 11:46:05 -0500
From: "Frank G. Williams" <frankw@MAIL.AHC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ladies Choice etc.

Friends,

Robinne makes some good points about letting good taste set the
standards for asking and accepting dances.

She forwarded from Nitin:

> >I think women asking, and routinely being accepted, could be a temporary
> >phase. Once the novelty wears off (or the social capital of
> >being-accepted-because-asking-is-exceptional is exhausted), women may be
> >not-accepted perhaps as often as men are, with the usual provisos
> >mentioned by other posters (good dancers, chemistry, etc etc).
> >
> >Progress? Perhaps but then again perhaps not.

Some people on this list seem to believe that in the traditional codes
for Argentine milongas, the leader initiates the invitation to dance.
If they think that, they may either be leaders with a delicate ego or
the best dancer in the house. The true situation is far more advanced
in it's diplomacy. The first move is, of course, made by the follower
herself. Since leaders shouldn't approach her table uninvited, it is
SHE who solicits the invitation. With the eyes. To avoid somebody she
doesn't want to dance with, she need only avoid eye contact. The
arrangement is far less threatening than our traditional No. Am.
procedure of 'cornering' a follower and daring her to refuse. It works
better when there is a surplus of leaders, giving the followers a better
selection. But it's relatively equitable: the leaders may notice
somebody staring a hole through them yet decline to return the eye
contact. Really, the traditional Argentine code is the height of 'cool'.

My point is that it is both natural and traditional for the followers to
be active in choosing partners. When there is not the kind of
'isolation' caused by 'unapproachable tables', of course, the rules will
change, but not the result.

The 'eye game' is very cool.

Frank - Mpls.

Frank G. Williams, Ph.D. University of Minnesota
frankw@mail.ahc.umn.edu Dept. of Neuroscience
(612) 625-6441 (office) 321 Church Street SE
(612) 624-4436 (lab) Minneapolis, MN 55455
(612) 281-3860 (cellular/home)