5133 Leading Cross
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:42:51 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading Cross
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Hm.. Why dance not leading cross when it is so pleasant to lead it and to be
lead to it!?
One reason is probably those who do not lead cross just do not know how to
do it.
I remember - in 6 month of everyday lessons not a single soul (even some
local Argentineans) was able to tell me logically how to lead cross.
Until I have figured it out myself. And it is so easy.
Igor Polk
PS. Obviously, all good dancers know how to lead cross.
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 01:18:29 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading Cross
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Igor,
If it's so easy, why don't you tell us?
Various teachers have taught me to lead the cross with;
1. Forward body movement and a body turn to right;
2. Forward body movement and a body turn to left;
3. No turn, but forward body movement and slight movement to the left;
4. No lead necessary;
5. Forward body movement and put the girl into the cross.
The fact is that if the girl knows when and how to cross, all the above will work [except maybe 4].
Equally, if the girl doesn't know when and how to cross, nothing will work. The cross cannot be lead
unless the girl knows it. If you don't believe me, try it with a complete beginner.
So, come on Igor - tell us your easy method for leading the cross.
Keith, HK
On Fri Aug 24 12:42 , "Igor Polk" sent:
>Hm.. Why dance not leading cross when it is so pleasant to lead it and to be
>lead to it!?
>
>One reason is probably those who do not lead cross just do not know how to
>do it.
>
>I remember - in 6 month of everyday lessons not a single soul (even some
>local Argentineans) was able to tell me logically how to lead cross.
>
>Until I have figured it out myself. And it is so easy.
>
>Igor Polk
>PS. Obviously, all good dancers know how to lead cross.
>
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 09:18:09 -0400
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading Cross
To: <keith@tangohk.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
> From: keith@tangohk.com
>
> Various teachers have taught me to lead the cross with;
>
> The fact is that if the girl knows when and how to cross, all the above will work [except maybe 4].
> Equally, if the girl doesn't know when and how to cross, nothing will work. The cross cannot be lead
> unless the girl knows it. If you don't believe me, try it with a complete beginner.
>
> So, come on Igor - tell us your easy method for leading the cross.
>
> Keith, HK
Hi Keith,
Your statement is absolutely right and addresses the crux of the matter. The cross at the 5th step of the 8CB is done automatically by women who know how to dance tango (unless you block the cross by moving yourself back in front of the woman or some other stratagem). Of course a front cross can be led from any number of places during the dance. As long as the womans weight is on her right foot, the left foot can be placed crossed in front and the weight can be changed to effect the step.
Also, you are right in that this can be proven by dancing with a complete beginner. It is not only the front cross at the 5th step that's difficult for them but also the molinete or giro. A total beginner will do all kinds of steps if you lead her (usually by strong physical impulse) to go around you. It is imperative that the woman know how to do the giros. The way to do it is by taking steps in the order of open, cross, open, cross, etc. Each time the cross alternates from front to back after each open or side step. This is done automatically by the woman who knows how to dance tango if she is led to take steps around the man. It is actually unusual and requires special leads to make the woman cross only in front (or back) after the open steps.
Some of you have probably taken classes with Chicho, Fabian, Gustavo and other teachers who explain that the nomenclature of each step of the woman (whether it's a front or back cross or even an open step) is determined by the position of the dancers in relation to each other, not by the appearance of the step. Yes, these steps can be readily transformed in unusual ways by changing the relative positions of the man and woman. Also, it's quite true that any step can be led from practically any position. I don't advocate memorization of sequences or steps, but it is true that the tango has a code and unless the leader changes the order, the womans giro is predetermined insofar as the order of the 3 steps which comprise it.
Regards,
Manuel
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 11:57:19 -0700 (MST)
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading Cross
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> writes:
>
> Hm.. Why dance not leading cross when it is so pleasant
> to lead it and to be lead to it!?
>
> One reason is probably those who do not lead cross just
> do not know how to do it.
>
> I remember - in 6 month of everyday lessons not a single soul
> (even some local Argentineans) was able to tell me logically
> how to lead cross.
Maybe because the majority of Argentines believe
the cross is automatic (meaning, following the code
of the grapevine, as Manuel mentioned) when walking
"outside partner" (to borrow a ballroom term) on the
right side, unless the cross is explicitly blocked?
Also, someone asked why then this does not happen
automatically on the left. First of all, I would submit
that nobody in their right (no pun intended) mind ever
sets off merrily strolling along outside partner on the
left side in parallel feet, at least not in a social
setting, and if you're in crossed feet, you're typically
not really outside partner, but rather working in
a three-track system, as it were, and thus blocking the
cross.
Huck
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 16:06:57 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading Cross
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Huck,
I agree that it's rare to walk outside partner's left side in anything other than crossed feet, but, so what?
When I walk a woman to the cross, i.e. outside partner right side, I'm also usually in crossed feet, but I don't block the cross.
I merely keep my right foot to the left to permit the cross.
Keith, HK
On Sat Aug 25 2:57 , Huck Kennedy sent:
>Igor Polk ipolk@virtuar.com> writes:
>>
>> Hm.. Why dance not leading cross when it is so pleasant
>> to lead it and to be lead to it!?
>>
>> One reason is probably those who do not lead cross just
>> do not know how to do it.
>>
>> I remember - in 6 month of everyday lessons not a single soul
>> (even some local Argentineans) was able to tell me logically
>> how to lead cross.
>
> Maybe because the majority of Argentines believe
>the cross is automatic (meaning, following the code
>of the grapevine, as Manuel mentioned) when walking
>"outside partner" (to borrow a ballroom term) on the
>right side, unless the cross is explicitly blocked?
>
> Also, someone asked why then this does not happen
>automatically on the left. First of all, I would submit
>that nobody in their right (no pun intended) mind ever
>sets off merrily strolling along outside partner on the
>left side in parallel feet, at least not in a social
>setting, and if you're in crossed feet, you're typically
>not really outside partner, but rather working in
>a three-track system, as it were, and thus blocking the
>cross.
>
>Huck
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 16:24:01 -0400
From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading Cross(es)
To: tango-L@mit.edu
Replies to three posts, in turn, below. Beware of the mutable typeface...
Huck Kennedy wrote:
> Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> writes:
>
>> Hm.. Why dance not leading cross when it is so pleasant
>> to lead it and to be lead to it!?
>>
> Maybe because the majority of Argentines believe
> the cross is automatic (meaning, following the code
> of the grapevine, as Manuel mentioned) when walking
> "outside partner" (to borrow a ballroom term) on the
> right side
>
For the sake of argument, I usually think of this as being left-ward of
my partner, as I'm "left of center" in the embrace (and so is she, from
her perspective). Sometimes I call it "English driving." But as I've
pointed out before, "left" and "right" are problematic words in an
embrace where the dancers are facing each other. I wish we had clearer
terms.
> Also, someone asked why then this does not happen
> automatically on the left. First of all, I would submit
> that nobody in their right (no pun intended) mind ever
> sets off merrily strolling along outside partner on the
> left side in parallel feet, at least not in a social
> setting
You speak for yourself on this one.
> and if you're in crossed feet, you're typically
> not really outside partner, but rather working in
> a three-track system, as it were, and thus blocking the
> cross.
>
What you refer to is only one way to style it.
In any case, if the cross IS "automatic" because the grapevine pattern
underlies the walk (and vice versa), then it only makes sense that one
would have an automatic cross when walking as you describe. The
clockwise giro has a front cross step too, you know.
Moreover, if you lead the one cross, you can lead the other-- provided
that the lady hasn't done herself the disservice of learning patterns
she can't override.
Ultimately, I agree with the notion that the cruzada is a learned habit.
I do not agree, however, that it is essentially the same as a front
cross step. The cruzada has a completely different feel, setup, rhythm,
and exit; moreover, it's a step in place, rather than a step away from
the dancer's grounded leg. And if only ladies learned it, even as a
habit, in more than one position, as many men do, then women would have
an easier time playing with the crosses produced by enrosques.
Keith (HK) wrote:
>> But please tell us, when you lead the lady to dance continuous Giros, do you lead each individual step, ie. front cross, opening, back cross, opening [...] Or do you rely on her knowing the code or correct sequence of steps for the Giro? <<
Personally, I lead every damn step, because I sometimes like to change
up this pattern. If the lady does the pattern automatically and I don't
care to change it, I can opt to follow her.
That said, I don't often lead more than two giros consecutively. I
prefer to change the dance more frequently than that.
Manuel wrote:
>> I don't think it will ever be necessary for a tango dancer to
unlearn the code.... The sequence of steps in the giro is pretty much
cast in stone. <<
The above is true, however, only insofar as one is content with that
degree of improv. For my part, I'd rather lead every step and every
pivot. And when I dance with a woman who relies too much on "the code,"
she runs into conceptual blackout the moment I switch a back cross into,
say, a front cross-- or the moment I let her walk all forward steps.
Thus is the easy made difficult, when one relies too much on a device
like the hallowed "grapevine."
My current view on "the code," for what it's worth, is that the only
thing a woman should do automatically is _change weight when she does
cross_. I've resisted committing to this, but after several months (6+)
of playing around, I've come to conclude that it's much easier on both
dancers if she simply changes feet. Preventing that change is much
easier and clearer than leading it, in most cases.
And, in any case, that's what everyone does with the normal cross. I've
_never_ heard it explained otherwise. Anyone who has, please pipe up,
because I'd love to hear about it.
Jake
DC
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 16:28:19 -0700 (MST)
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading Cross
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Keith HK writes:
> Huck,
>
> I agree that it's rare to walk outside partner's left side in
> anything other than crossed feet, but, so what?
>
> When I walk a woman to the cross, i.e. outside partner right side,
> I'm also usually in crossed feet, but I don't block the cross.
> I merely keep my right foot to the left to permit the cross.
I not only said walking in crossed feet, I also said
using three tracks (which is the "inline" of crossed feet,
and the automatic cross only occurs when outside partner).
As soon as you start to "keep your right foot to the left,"
as you put it, you are at that point outside partner. You
yourself are even saying that you do that to "permit" the
cross. Well yeah--because otherwise you'd be blocking it! :)
Huck
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2007 16:39:16 -0700 (MST)
From: Huck Kennedy <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading Cross
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Jake Spatz writes:
> Huck Kennedy wrote:
> > Igor Polk <ipolk@virtuar.com> writes:
> >
> >> Hm.. Why dance not leading cross when it is so pleasant
> >> to lead it and to be lead to it!?
> >>
> > Maybe because the majority of Argentines believe
> > the cross is automatic (meaning, following the code
> > of the grapevine, as Manuel mentioned) when walking
> > "outside partner" (to borrow a ballroom term) on the
> > right side
>
> For the sake of argument, I usually think of this as being left-ward of
> my partner, as I'm "left of center" in the embrace (and so is she, from
> her perspective).
The standard terminology is to call that right side,
since you are walking on her right side, and she is
positioned to your right. Your way of thinking makes
just as much sense, it just doesn't happen to be the one
chosen as the standard.
> But as I've pointed out before, "left" and "right" are problematic
> words in an embrace where the dancers are facing each other.
Not if everyone agrees on a standard. Or at least
it's less of a problem that way.
> > Also, someone asked why then this does not happen
> > automatically on the left. First of all, I would submit
> > that nobody in their right (no pun intended) mind ever
> > sets off merrily strolling along outside partner on the
> > left side in parallel feet, at least not in a social
> > setting
>
> You speak for yourself on this one.
I don't speak for everyone on that, but certainly
not just for myself. Most social dancers who aren't rank
beginners only dance in crossed feet on the left side.
Which is not to say that I mean to imply you're no better
than a rank beginner of you do choose to do it in
parallel! :) You've already made it clear in earlier
postings that you enjoy thinking outside the box. But
in social dancing, walking on the left in crossed feet
rather than parallel not only takes up less space (a big
factor under crowded conditions), it also has much more
of an intimate feel.
> > and if you're in crossed feet, you're typically
> > not really outside partner, but rather working in
> > a three-track system, as it were, and thus blocking the
> > cross.
>
> What you refer to is only one way to style it.
>
> In any case, if the cross IS "automatic" because the grapevine pattern
> underlies the walk (and vice versa), then it only makes sense that one
> would have an automatic cross when walking as you describe. The
> clockwise giro has a front cross step too, you know.
No, if you're on three tracks, you're blocking
the cross. Not only that, you're inline, and not
outside partner, and the automatic cross wouldn't even
apply. But as you point out, that's not the only way to
be crossed: Just because you're walking in crossed feet
doesn't mean you and your partner are walking inline on
three tracks. If you as the leader take your foot away
>from the central rail and towards the outside, you're no
longer inline on three tracks, you're outside partner,
and depending upon what your torso is doing, probably in
the process of leading a cross.
> Moreover, if you lead the one cross, you can lead the other--provided
> that the lady hasn't done herself the disservice of learning patterns
> she can't override.
You know, even though the cross is traditionally
automatic, I imagine most good leaders are, via their
body motions, leading it anyway, even if some of them
don't realize it. And if a leader were to walk for
a prolonged period of time on the right side in, say,
somewhat of a clothesline position (ie. the two of you
not turned much if at all to face each other), I doubt
if a good follower would cross, even if she did consider
the automatic cross to be a code. So to a large extent,
it could be argued that all the hullabaloo over "automatic
or led?" is effectively moot most of the time.
> Ultimately, I agree with the notion that the cruzada is a learned habit.
I don't think Manuel called it a "learned habit,"
but rather a code based upon the molinete. Subtly
different from a learned habit, like, say, a follower
always following a back boleo with a front one whether
led to or not, because in her home community lots of
guy might happen to like leading that, and she's gotten
used to the pattern.
> I do not agree, however, that it is essentially the same as a front
> cross step. The cruzada has a completely different feel, setup, rhythm,
> and exit; moreover, it's a step in place, rather than a step away from
> the dancer's grounded leg.
Yes.
Huck
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 03:47:33 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading Cross(es)
To: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>, "Tango-L"
<tango-L@mit.edu>
On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 16:24:01 -0400, "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)"
<spatz@tangoDC.com> said:
>
> My current view on "the code," for what it's worth, is that the only
> thing a woman should do automatically is _change weight when she does
> cross_. I've resisted committing to this, but after several months (6+)
> of playing around, I've come to conclude that it's much easier on both
> dancers if she simply changes feet. Preventing that change is much
> easier and clearer than leading it, in most cases.
In general, two principles best support accelerated learning in tango:
working at the edge of your abilities and using what you already know in
new contexts. Because I am as lazy as they come, I make very heavy use
of the second principal (which has a corollary: the order in which you
learn things matters very, very much).
The cross is a pretty simple thing and was thought out 50 years ago at
least, and the investigators back then came to the opposite conclusion
as you.
Since the revival of tango in the 80's, the cross usually has been
taught to beginning dancers in both normal and cross foot systems in a
way that forces an automatic weight change. Followers then get in the
habit of changing weight automatically, and usually they can't help
rushing the cross, at least in the beginning. Even worse, beginning
followers usually end up puttin the left foot down flat, ball and heel
at the same time, which makes the change of weight pretty much
instantaneous. This leads to ruinous assumptions on the leaders part
about what must happen during the cross.
As a result, unlearning the automatic change of weight took me months,
being much aggravated by the fact that all of the follows I was working
with at the time had the auto-change-of-weight-on-the-cross habit to
unlearn at the same time. The crucial piece of knowledge came during a
private lesson with Mimi Santapa last summer, but my intellectual
understanding comes from working with Florencia Taccetti over the last
year.
Consider what IMO should happen during the change of weight when not
crossing: the weight goes onto the ball of the foot first, then the foot
articulates backwards, until the weight split between the heel and the
ball of the foot, then the weight continues past the heel as the next
step begins. (Side Note: followers who don't use their heels, will lean
forward and reach back with their feet, and usually end up hanging off
the leads right shoulder, Bad Thing. Leads who don't lead their
followers onto their heels before leading the next step back, force
followers into the invidious position of having to do the wrong thing
just to survive, Even Worse Thing. Either way, 100% of the time on the
balls of the toes makes followers far heavier and harder to move than
need be.)
In the context of the cross, the follower should maintain the same
habits. In that case the ball of the followers left foot would touch
ground well in back of the ball of the right foot, with the heel up, the
left knee bent and lined up in front of the right knee, and the left
calf firmly pressed against the right shin. When the change of weight
is led, the follower's left knee straightens to take the weight, and the
heel will go down to help support the weight. As the weight goes onto
the left foot, left calf stays pressed against the right shin as the the
right leg softens, so at some point the right foot is freed up and pops
loose. If the weight shift happens fast enough, the right leg can come
out from the cross fast enough to make the cross in double-time very
easy for followers. IN other words, we engineer it so there is a bit of
resistance to crossing automatically.
This has 2 advantages. First, the nice habits followers learn for
walking backwards are reused for the cross, so there's no unlearning
that needs to happen; we're just adding enough to to deal with the new
context. Second, this allows enough of a barrier to crossing
automatically, that the change must be led explicitly, and gives the
leader all the tactile feedback he needs to lead the weight change in a
calibrated way. Thus all the possibilities after the cross become much
more accessible.
Jeez, I'm getting verbose in my old age.
Christopher
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2007 04:20:11 -0500
From: ceverett@ceverett.com
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading Cross
To: "Huck Kennedy" <huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu>, "Tango-L"
<tango-l@mit.edu>
On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 16:39:16 -0700 (MST), "Huck Kennedy"
<huck@eninet.eas.asu.edu> said:
> Jake Spatz writes:
>
> > I do not agree, however, that it is essentially the same as a front
> > cross step. The cruzada has a completely different feel, setup, rhythm,
> > and exit; moreover, it's a step in place, rather than a step away from
> > the dancer's grounded leg.
>
> Yes.
A challenge: I am thinking of a very lovely and elegant step X, neither
a cruzada nor a front cross, so that:
Front cross <== change A ==> step X <== change B ==> cruzada
AND
Step X can be easily substituted for the cruzada in the 8CB
Describe step X, describe change A that creates the variation between
the front cross from the open step and step X, describe change B that
creates the variation between the cruzada and step X, and finally
compare and contrast change A and change B.
A clue: Susanna Miller taught step X during her tour in the US 2 summers
ago with Maria Plazaola. (Which is why Susanna is never a waste of time
for me; she brings stuff that I find really thought provoking when I
compare it to what I already know).
Christopher
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2007 09:11:21 -0700
From: Sean <milos-gloriosus@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading Cross
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I have not posted here in many many months, but I do enjoy reading
all your various comments here in Tango-L.
Therefore I will try to keep it short: and speaking only for
myself, the "Cross" is lead.
Always.
That being said: For followers if you feel you have even the
slightest perception of an inkling of a lead to the cross: you cross.
Even if what you felt was not intended as a lead to the cross. You
cross.
What comes of this is nothing bad. Any good leader knows what happened.
Now you have changed systems. Big deal.
Better connection will resolve everything.
Milos-gloriosus@comcast.net
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2007 15:03:24 +0300
From: "Krasimir Stoyanov" <krasimir@krasimir.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading Cross
To: <keith@tangohk.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>
Making the lady cross is really easy if one stops thinking of its own body.
Think what you (the leader) are supposed to do to her body. One must learn
to feel what is happening to her body in response to your action. This is
the lead - it is not so important how you manage to do it as far as it works
(and is comfortable of course). So there are many possibilities - if only
the follower knows how to follow, and the leader how to lead. Then all the
options below are valid.
The cross is nothing more than well controlled (and properly modified)
walking - that's why I don't need the automatic crossing and don't like it
at all.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 8:18 AM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading Cross
> Igor,
>
> If it's so easy, why don't you tell us?
>
> Various teachers have taught me to lead the cross with;
>
> 1. Forward body movement and a body turn to right;
> 2. Forward body movement and a body turn to left;
> 3. No turn, but forward body movement and slight movement to the left;
> 4. No lead necessary;
> 5. Forward body movement and put the girl into the cross.
>
> The fact is that if the girl knows when and how to cross, all the above
> will work [except maybe 4].
> Equally, if the girl doesn't know when and how to cross, nothing will
> work. The cross cannot be lead
> unless the girl knows it. If you don't believe me, try it with a complete
> beginner.
>
> So, come on Igor - tell us your easy method for leading the cross.
>
> Keith, HK
>
>
> On Fri Aug 24 12:42 , "Igor Polk" sent:
>
>>Hm.. Why dance not leading cross when it is so pleasant to lead it and to
>>be
>>lead to it!?
>>
>>One reason is probably those who do not lead cross just do not know how to
>>do it.
>>
>>I remember - in 6 month of everyday lessons not a single soul (even some
>>local Argentineans) was able to tell me logically how to lead cross.
>>
>>Until I have figured it out myself. And it is so easy.
>>
>>Igor Polk
>>PS. Obviously, all good dancers know how to lead cross.
>>
>
>
