4101 Leading and following style
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 09:15:55 -0600
From: Melanie Eskoff <melanieeskoff@AUSTIN.RR.COM>
Subject: Leading and following style
Lois,
Sorry, I did miss the bigger point. Just re-read your post.
So.....are you telling us that you have accepted dances you didn't want, failed to follow with any honesty and now write a derisive hungover =
"open message" in response to a sincere quest for information? Perhaps if you'd actually followed and given honest feedback, those leaders that =
drove you to such a rant would have improved over the years. If you'd followed with true integrity, it could have been like a private lesson =
for this person that can't afford them. Or were you the one afraid of looking bad to others, so you decided to "fix it" for him?
" I knew my part
whether led or not."
Wow! I've been all turned around on this following thing. ;o) Is this how you teach your students to follow? Thinkaboutit. You've just =
complained about the leaders that you've been lying to for years, by not being a good follower. I'm continually amazed by women afraid to give a =
warm, sincere, kind "No Thank You", to brutal leaders.
I'm sure you're a better follower and teacher than this post implies......but, you definitely can't hold your liquor.
Melanie, I never post when I'm drunk, Eskoff
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 19:04:06 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Leading and following style
>From: Melanie Eskoff <melanieeskoff@AUSTIN.RR.COM>
>Perhaps if you'd actually followed and given honest feedback, those leaders
>that drove you to such >a rant would have improved over the years. If
>you'd followed with true integrity, it could have been >like a private
>lesson for this person that can't afford them. Or were you the one afraid
>of looking >bad to others, so you decided to "fix it" for him?
Hi Melanie,
Here you bring up an interesting conundrum. If one gives "feedback" to a
dancer who appears to need it, would you not be guilty of "teaching"? After
all, I imagine this feedback would be dispensed at the time it's needed...
Obviously this happened at the milongas... It's a catch 22, one could act in
the best way possible and still be "wrong"......
>" I knew my part
>whether led or not."
>
>Wow! I've been all turned around on this following thing. ;o) Is this how
>you teach your students >to follow? Thinkaboutit. You've just complained
>about the leaders that you've been lying to for >years, by not being a good
>follower. I'm continually amazed by women afraid to give a warm, >sincere,
>kind "No Thank You", to brutal leaders.
That's another interesting point... If the part is not led, it might be
impossible to "know it". OTOH, the technique of the follower must be known
and is not dependent of the lead.... Maybe there are two different
conversations taking place here... This is the problem with the internet.
The communications are very one-dimensional. Without visual cues, voice
inflection, etc., it's too easy to miss the other persons' meaning.....
Regards,
Manuel
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 19:03:43 -0600
From: Melanie Eskoff <melanieeskoff@AUSTIN.RR.COM>
Subject: Re: Leading and following style
Hi Manuel,
Yes, I agree about the difficulty of internet communications.
Actually, I think I miss interperted what Lois said. After re-reading it I
think she was saying that she did resist rather than follow a bad lead even
though she knew what he wanted. I've apologized for that, but............I
found the words "I know my part" coming from a follower to be really
innappropriate. The "feedback" I was refering to in that sentence was
simply the feedback of a genuine follow, not verbal. I found her rant
confusing and shouldn't have gotten involved in it.
But, there are a couple of interesting topics here. I think experienced
followers frequently feel what's coming and correctly interpret it even if
the lead is not good and go along with it. We do it because we don't want
the dance to falter and both of us look bad in a social situation. We don't
want to discourage the leader, even though it's not giving him the feedback,
necessary info, whatever you want to call it, that will ultimately improve
his dance. All kinds of reasons, but I think it's a bad idea. Even if one
has so much experience that she can cover for the guy correctly 99% of the
time (certainly not me), she has to dance not "knowing" what's coming or she
can find herself not following and that's what bothered me about her choice
of words. As a leader, I want the straight poop. Don't cover for me. But,
then I don't have an armie lead. For me, a brutal lead with the arms should
not be followed. It should only elicit a groan since it truly dosen't reach
our bodies in a way that makes us want to respond. And then I just won't
dance with that person.
Perhaps I also overeacted to Lois because of another topic that most
communities experience, and that's the out of control, innappropriate for
the space, no floorcraft or respect for others problem (even if they don't
have brutal leads). This can drive normally sane people, which I'm sure
Lois is, over the edge. Perhaps I saw myself in her. When you quit dancing
with these people, it only helps the anger a little if you still have to
watch other women, needy beyond reason or just ignorant, dance with them,
rather than realize the terrible precedent they perpetuate. In my community
we have individuals that hurt others badly, abuse the LOD and still get
dances. Shame on these women. We are partially responsible if it
continues. All you can do is monitor your own behaviour and get your anger
out by beating on pillows or kittens. ;o) (just kidding)
Sincerely,
Melanie
Cat Lover
P
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 6:04 PM
Subject: RE: [TANGO-L] Leading and following style
> >From: Melanie Eskoff <melanieeskoff@AUSTIN.RR.COM>
>
>>Perhaps if you'd actually followed and given honest feedback, those
>>leaders that drove you to such >a rant would have improved over the years.
>>If you'd followed with true integrity, it could have been >like a private
>>lesson for this person that can't afford them. Or were you the one afraid
>>of looking >bad to others, so you decided to "fix it" for him?
>
> Hi Melanie,
>
> Here you bring up an interesting conundrum. If one gives "feedback" to a
> dancer who appears to need it, would you not be guilty of "teaching"?
> After all, I imagine this feedback would be dispensed at the time it's
> needed... Obviously this happened at the milongas... It's a catch 22, one
> could act in the best way possible and still be "wrong"......
>
>
>>" I knew my part
>>whether led or not."
>>
>>Wow! I've been all turned around on this following thing. ;o) Is this
>>how you teach your students >to follow? Thinkaboutit. You've just
>>complained about the leaders that you've been lying to for >years, by not
>>being a good follower. I'm continually amazed by women afraid to give a
>>warm, >sincere, kind "No Thank You", to brutal leaders.
>
> That's another interesting point... If the part is not led, it might be
> impossible to "know it". OTOH, the technique of the follower must be known
> and is not dependent of the lead.... Maybe there are two different
> conversations taking place here... This is the problem with the internet.
> The communications are very one-dimensional. Without visual cues, voice
> inflection, etc., it's too easy to miss the other persons' meaning.....
>
> Regards,
>
> Manuel
>
>
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 19:31:19 -0800
From: Iron Logic <railogic@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Leading and following style
Dear Melanie
>>>>
When you quit dancing with these people, it only helps the anger a little if you still have to watch other women, needy beyond reason or just ignorant, dance with them, rather than realize the terrible precedent they perpetuate. In my community we have individuals that hurt others badly, abuse the LOD and still get dances. Shame on these women.
>>>>
IMHO...there is no need be frustrated because some women accept invitation from men we dont like. It is okay that you believe in certain hierarchy "beginner", "advanced", brutal leaders etc, and then treat "lower" hierarchy with disdain. That is your decision. But please be aware that one of those dancers will make a decision about you at certain point , and it may be hard to digest. What goes comes back;)
Life is never fair but it does provide opportunity for everybody. So please... let it be, and enjoy your dances.;)). Some women get asked all the time even though there are bad dancers. Thats how it is, and it doesnt help to be worked up all that. "real" tango has calming affect and may be you wont be accumulating emotions like that ;))).
Personally if I think its fun, i go for it, it does NOT matter what is the public rating of that dancer and what will be the consequences, ..as others see it. Give it all....if you can't be favourite dancers of each other, may be you can just be friends.
Melanie Eskoff <melanieeskoff@AUSTIN.RR.COM> wrote:
Hi Manuel,
Yes, I agree about the difficulty of internet communications.
Actually, I think I miss interperted what Lois said. After re-reading it I
think she was saying that she did resist rather than follow a bad lead even
though she knew what he wanted. I've apologized for that, but............I
found the words "I know my part" coming from a follower to be really
innappropriate. The "feedback" I was refering to in that sentence was
simply the feedback of a genuine follow, not verbal. I found her rant
confusing and shouldn't have gotten involved in it.
But, there are a couple of interesting topics here. I think experienced
followers frequently feel what's coming and correctly interpret it even if
the lead is not good and go along with it. We do it because we don't want
the dance to falter and both of us look bad in a social situation. We don't
want to discourage the leader, even though it's not giving him the feedback,
necessary info, whatever you want to call it, that will ultimately improve
his dance. All kinds of reasons, but I think it's a bad idea. Even if one
has so much experience that she can cover for the guy correctly 99% of the
time (certainly not me), she has to dance not "knowing" what's coming or she
can find herself not following and that's what bothered me about her choice
of words. As a leader, I want the straight poop. Don't cover for me. But,
then I don't have an armie lead. For me, a brutal lead with the arms should
not be followed. It should only elicit a groan since it truly dosen't reach
our bodies in a way that makes us want to respond. And then I just won't
dance with that person.
Perhaps I also overeacted to Lois because of another topic that most
communities experience, and that's the out of control, innappropriate for
the space, no floorcraft or respect for others problem (even if they don't
have brutal leads). This can drive normally sane people, which I'm sure
Lois is, over the edge. Perhaps I saw myself in her. When you quit dancing
with these people, it only helps the anger a little if you still have to
watch other women, needy beyond reason or just ignorant, dance with them,
rather than realize the terrible precedent they perpetuate. In my community
we have individuals that hurt others badly, abuse the LOD and still get
dances. Shame on these women. We are partially responsible if it
continues. All you can do is monitor your own behaviour and get your anger
out by beating on pillows or kittens. ;o) (just kidding)
Sincerely,
Melanie
Cat Lover
P
----- Original Message -----
From: "WHITE 95 R"
To: ;
Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 6:04 PM
Subject: RE: [TANGO-L] Leading and following style
> >From: Melanie Eskoff
>
>>Perhaps if you'd actually followed and given honest feedback, those
>>leaders that drove you to such >a rant would have improved over the years.
>>If you'd followed with true integrity, it could have been >like a private
>>lesson for this person that can't afford them. Or were you the one afraid
>>of looking >bad to others, so you decided to "fix it" for him?
>
> Hi Melanie,
>
> Here you bring up an interesting conundrum. If one gives "feedback" to a
> dancer who appears to need it, would you not be guilty of "teaching"?
> After all, I imagine this feedback would be dispensed at the time it's
> needed... Obviously this happened at the milongas... It's a catch 22, one
> could act in the best way possible and still be "wrong"......
>
>
>>" I knew my part
>>whether led or not."
>>
>>Wow! I've been all turned around on this following thing. ;o) Is this
>>how you teach your students >to follow? Thinkaboutit. You've just
>>complained about the leaders that you've been lying to for >years, by not
>>being a good follower. I'm continually amazed by women afraid to give a
>>warm, >sincere, kind "No Thank You", to brutal leaders.
>
> That's another interesting point... If the part is not led, it might be
> impossible to "know it". OTOH, the technique of the follower must be known
> and is not dependent of the lead.... Maybe there are two different
> conversations taking place here... This is the problem with the internet.
> The communications are very one-dimensional. Without visual cues, voice
> inflection, etc., it's too easy to miss the other persons' meaning.....
>
> Regards,
>
> Manuel
>
>
Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2006 20:09:48 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Leading and following style
Dear Melanie:
Exactly right...
************
"she has to dance not "knowing" what's coming
or she can find herself not following and that's what
bothered me about her choice of words."
************
Bottom line is that dancers have to trust each other
completely...totally!!! Followers who have problems
trusting a leader will always have problems dancing
tango, and leaders who show no respect for followers
will always have problems dancing tango. They are
both the SAME PEOPLE!!! Good dancers NEVER COMPLAIN OR
CRITICIZE ...EVER.. They just love their partner and
dance.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 11:21:54 -0800
From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Leading and following style
--- Iron Logic <railogic@YAHOO.COM> wrote:
> IMHO...there is no need be frustrated because some
> women accept invitation from men we dont like.
Well, I'm not so sure about this. I think that the
follower who wants to contribute to the development of
their tango community should try to find it in
themselves to dance some with beginners and to do so
courteously, and to the best of their ability. I
don't even care if you decide to follow what they led
or what you are pretty sure they meant (and to tell
the truth, if you know someone has had five lessons
from an instructor you are familiar with, you probably
can tell what they meant your choices are the walk,
the rock, the baldosa, the cross, and front ochos).
When they are more advanced, I think you should still
dance with them, and then I think you should do what
is led regardless, although I would only argue with
and not criticize the follower who made a different
decision.
But brutal leaders, leaders who shoot around the floor
disturbing the ronda, leaders who do "fancy" moves
they don't really understand that are uncomfortable to
experience, leaders who are so incompetent that they
resort to verbal leads, leaders who have alienated so
many competent followers that they have to prey on
first-time attendees at the milonga those guys I am
certain one should not dance with.
We've got a joker in our community who appears all
dressed up almost every week at a milonga. He took
eight classes six or seven years ago, they tell me,
and then said he figured he had gotten it.
Unfortunately, this opinion was not correct. Since
then he has received no instruction - unless he is
working with a video at home, but I don't think I've
seen any new moves in the last three or four years. I
danced with him twice when we first came here. His
"lead" consists of strong-arming the follower into
some unlikely spot without regard to what foot she is
on, and then tripping her with what I am sure he
thinks is a sacada. With him, the beat is an abstract
concept and it does not inform his actions. He mostly
moves around in the middle of the room, which is in a
sense a mercy, since you can avoid him by simply
following the ronda. Unfortunately, you cannot avoid
hearing him, since he also offers commentary and
instruction to those who cannot divine his intention.
Since those first two dances I have greeted him
courteously when he arrives, chitchatted with him if
we are standing getting a drink at the same time, and
stayed the hell out of his way when he was seeking a
partner.
There are two types of women who dance with this guy.
The first are the experienced followers who are too
nice to tell him no. They dance in a careful, intent
way with him, clearly trying to read what he is going
to try next so as to avoid injury, collision, or the
type of misunderstanding that would let him know (if
he were aware at all) that his lead is not wonderful.
I am sure these women will have their reward in
heaven. But I believe they are making a mistake, and
a mistake which not only endangers them, but which is
bad for the community. This is because the second
group of followers are the beginners, who are too
clueless to see that this guy is trouble. These women
come to a milonga to test the waters and, without
fail, one or two of their first dances are with Mr.
Awful. They are jerked around the floor, shoved into
positions which are not closely related to those
commonly associated with tango, and to put the cherry
on the sundae, lectured by this numbskull about how
they should dance.
I would argue that this guy is injuring the community
as a whole (aside from whatever he is doing to the
unwary individuals who gratify his ungodly desires).
I think Melanie is right those of us who have a clue
and still accept dances from guys like this are partly
responsible for them coming back and for them
weakening our communities.
Marisa
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 14:57:24 -0500
From: WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: Leading and following style
>From: Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM>
>But brutal leaders, leaders who shoot around the floor
>disturbing the ronda, leaders who do "fancy" moves
>they don't really understand that are uncomfortable to
>experience, leaders who are so incompetent that they
>resort to verbal leads, leaders who have alienated so
>many competent followers that they have to prey on
>first-time attendees at the milonga those guys I am
>certain one should not dance with.
I agree wholeheartedly with you on this. Fortunately, we don't see too many
such leaders in our community. I guess we are fortunate in that respect
>There are two types of women who dance with this guy.
>The first are the experienced followers who are too
>nice to tell him no. They dance in a careful, intent
>way with him, clearly trying to read what he is going
>to try next so as to avoid injury, collision, or the
>type of misunderstanding that would let him know (if
>he were aware at all) that his lead is not wonderful.
>I am sure these women will have their reward in
>heaven. But I believe they are making a mistake, and
>a mistake which not only endangers them, but which is
>bad for the community. This is because the second
>group of followers are the beginners, who are too
>clueless to see that this guy is trouble. These women
>come to a milonga to test the waters and, without
>fail, one or two of their first dances are with Mr.
>Awful. They are jerked around the floor, shoved into
>positions which are not closely related to those
>commonly associated with tango, and to put the cherry
>on the sundae, lectured by this numbskull about how
>they should dance.
I wonder why the women continue to dance with such leaders? Is it possible
that some actually enjoy dancing with guys like these? I've observed people
at the milongas and there are some guys who appear to dance like these
"brutal leaders" in the discussion. Granted, since I don't dance the woman's
part, I have no clue about how poorly or well these guys dance. However,
some women appear actually enjoy themselves quite a bit dancing with some of
these wildly girating, firulete factories ;-). Personally I don't care to
share the floor with some dancers because they seem to always get in the
way, but it's not the end of the world if I must deal with them... Anyway, I
know that some women do not like to dance with some guys (they've told me
so), but OTOH, other women appear to enjoy themselves a lot dancing with
guys who seem (emphasis on "seem") to dance in strange, even violent ways.
This might explain why the guiys continue to dance as they do. I wonder
what's to enjoy in such a dance. We read a lot about wopmen who hate
danmcing with these guys. I'd like to hear from women who enjoy it and why
they do. It might be educational......
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 20:08:00 +0000
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM>
Subject: Re: Leading and following style
Marisa Holmes <mariholmes@YAHOO.COM> :
> Unfortunately, you cannot avoid
> hearing him, since he also offers commentary and
> instruction to those who cannot divine his intention.
Just like his class instructor, I'll bet.
> There are two types of women who dance with this guy...
> the second group of followers are the beginners, who are too
> clueless to see that this guy is trouble.
You've described how you think he's trouble for the community, but not how you think
he's trouble for these beginner partners. Perhaps being just beginners, they've yet to
notice there's such a thing as a community, let alone a responsibility to it that is to be
discharged by them, rather than the more enlightened members such as yourself. Or
perhaps they have noticed, but understand that in tango, just as in life, their first
responsibility is to themselves.
> and to put the cherry on the sundae, lectured by this numbskull about how
> they should dance.
Then he is teaching a valuable lesson about the value of being lectured on how to
dance - a lesson often overlooked in the classes.
> I would argue that this guy is injuring the community
To his face?
Chris
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 15:07:40 -0500
From: Jeff Gaynor <jjg@JQHOME.NET>
Subject: Re: Leading and following style
WHITE 95 R wrote:
<snip/>
> I wonder why the women continue to dance with such leaders? Is it
> possible
> that some actually enjoy dancing with guys like these?
Dont' forget that at one point slam dancing* was all the rage. There's
just no telling what floats some people's boats. :-) Actually I think
it's an adolescent guy thing to confound passion (= characterized by
powerful emotions) with violence (=characterized by great physical
force). Sometimes being passionate can be quite violent but they are ,
of course, not synonyms. Some guys never get past this regardless of
age and there is no good way to tell them either...
Cheers,
Jeff
===========
* slam dancing was very violent dancing to punk rock music where you
intentionally crashed into the people around you as hard as you liked.
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 09:13:39 -1200
From: Michael <tangomaniac@CAVTEL.NET>
Subject: Re: Leading and following style
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 13:32:14 -0800
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Leading and following style
Hi Manuel,
I am not one of those women, but I may give you an
idea of why some women enjoy dancing with those types
of men. Because to them, it may feel neat to be able
to do all of these different steps/ornaments and they
do not realize that the same thing can be done in
non-brutal ways. These women do not develop the same
sensitivity of a good dancer. To them, a partner who
I consider to be a good dancer may not be considered a
good partner by them because he wont brutalize them.
These women are more interested in doing steps (just
like these brutal guys) than trying to get into a
tango trance. Tango is more external than internal
for them. Like fluff.
A few years ago when brutality was common in our
community, a student (a young college guy) asked me if
it was normal for a woman to rub her back after doing
boleos. This was something he observed at several
milongas. At first, I was upset that he even
considered that such a thing would be normal. Then, I
realized, that for that woman (along with other women)
that WAS normal.
BTW, one of those women now likes to backlead colgadas
and linear boleos (as opposed to waiting for an
invitation), though she has at least learned not to be
brutalized. It limits who she dances with, whether
she realizes it or not. But I don't think any of the
good men here dance a serious tango with her. They
save their best dancers for other women (not that she
knows that).
People want different things from tango, which may
change over time. They can also choose to limit how
well they want to dance.
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- WHITE 95 R <white95r@HOTMAIL.COM> wrote:
> I wonder why the women continue to dance with such
> leaders? Is it possible
> that some actually enjoy dancing with guys like
> these? I've observed people
> at the milongas and there are some guys who appear
> to dance like these
> "brutal leaders" in the discussion.
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 17:33:16 EST
From: Bill King <Euroking@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Leading and following style
At the risk of being shot at, would some give the beginning leads a break.
I understand that leading by pushing is not only uncomfortable but
potentially can be dangerous. I accept that I subscribe to it, but from the beginning
leading with your arms seems more natural than leading with your chest. You
want something to go somewhere you guide it, so why would you not do it when
dancing? As I learn, all I can say is ' let me count the ways' why it is not a
good idea. I have taken privates as a follow and have been shown the effect,
I didn't like it. But it is still a somewhat natural habit I need to totally
break. With that said, I still find myself in certain situations, and it is
usually when I am thinking and not feeling I will use my arms. Hopefully I
catch myself when my follow does not quite do what I intended or is slightly
delayed. It is a cue for me.
Much of what is said is valid, especially with the incorrigibles, those that
know what they are doing and are the star !!!. But there are those of us
that are on the learning curve who need the floor time and the diversity of
follows and not dancing with us or in my mind, worse yet not saying something on
the side (not necessarily on the floor)if you do dance with us. May be that
is also a problem with those that aren't willing to park an ego during the
learning process.
Just some thoughts.
Bill
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 18:10:08 EST
From: Richard deSousa <Mallpasso@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Leading and following style
In a message dated 3/15/2006 14:34:49 Pacific Standard Time, Euroking@AOL.COM
writes:
At the risk of being shot at, would some give the beginning leads a break.
I understand that leading by pushing is not only uncomfortable but
potentially can be dangerous. I accept that I subscribe to it, but from the
beginning
leading with your arms seems more natural than leading with your chest.
The only problem with your premise is that bad habits are difficult to
eliminate if acquired. Leading with the chest isn't any more difficult than pushing
with arms. Just pretend you're holding a beach ball or a pillow and turning
your torso to lead is the correct way. This way bad habits aren't acquired.
El Bandito de Tango
You
want something to go somewhere you guide it, so why would you not do it when
dancing? As I learn, all I can say is ' let me count the ways' why it is
not a
good idea. I have taken privates as a follow and have been shown the effect,
I didn't like it. But it is still a somewhat natural habit I need to totally
break. With that said, I still find myself in certain situations, and it is
usually when I am thinking and not feeling I will use my arms. Hopefully I
catch myself when my follow does not quite do what I intended or is slightly
delayed. It is a cue for me.
Much of what is said is valid, especially with the incorrigibles, those that
know what they are doing and are the star !!!. But there are those of us
that are on the learning curve who need the floor time and the diversity of
follows and not dancing with us or in my mind, worse yet not saying something
on
the side (not necessarily on the floor)if you do dance with us. May be that
is also a problem with those that aren't willing to park an ego during the
learning process.
Just some thoughts.
Bill
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 15:37:22 -0800
From: "Trini y Sean (PATangoS)" <patangos@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: Leading and following style
Hi Bill,
May I suggest taking a walk in the park,
arms-around-waists with your
sweetie/Mom/daughter/friend? Walk down long winding
paths, following the unpredictable curves of nature.
How do you naturally guide your partner? A thought
that might help.
It is good that you recognize pushing with arms as a
problem to solve. Keep at it!
Trini de Pittsburgh
--- Bill King <Euroking@AOL.COM> wrote:
> At the risk of being shot at, would some give the
> beginning leads a break.
> I understand that leading by pushing is not only
> uncomfortable but
> potentially can be dangerous. I accept that I
> subscribe to it, but from the beginning
> leading with your arms seems more natural than
> leading with your chest. You
> want something to go somewhere you guide it, so why
> would you not do it when
> dancing? As I learn, all I can say is ' let me
> count the ways' why it is not a
> good idea. I have taken privates as a follow and
> have been shown the effect,
> I didn't like it. But it is still a somewhat natural
> habit I need to totally
> break. With that said, I still find myself in
> certain situations, and it is
> usually when I am thinking and not feeling I will
> use my arms. Hopefully I
> catch myself when my follow does not quite do what I
> intended or is slightly
> delayed. It is a cue for me.
>
> Much of what is said is valid, especially with the
> incorrigibles, those that
> know what they are doing and are the star !!!. But
> there are those of us
> that are on the learning curve who need the floor
> time and the diversity of
> follows and not dancing with us or in my mind, worse
> yet not saying something on
> the side (not necessarily on the floor)if you do
> dance with us. May be that
> is also a problem with those that aren't willing to
> park an ego during the
> learning process.
>
> Just some thoughts.
>
> Bill
>
>
> should be sent to
> send the
> LISTSERV@MITVMA.MIT.EDU.
>
>
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
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Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 00:04:00 +0000
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM>
Subject: Re: Leading and following style
El Bandito wrote:
> The only problem with your premise is that bad habits are difficult
> to eliminate if acquired.
Agreed, particularly when the bad habit, as here, desensitises and hence obstructs
natural learning.
> Leading with the chest isn't any more difficult than pushing
> with arms.
Sure, but the problem is that the prevalent "show and tell" model of tango teaching
greatly favours leading with arms.
The main means of observation is by sight rather than feel, and leading with arms is
much more readily observed that leading with chest.
Execution is with a partner who's not yet learnt to follow, making leading with arms
far more effective than leading with chest.
These are defining characteristics of the show and tell model. They help us understand
why it not only fails to support the learning process, but also undermines natural
development.
Those who learn directly i.e. by dancing, don't suffer these factors. Observation is by
feel. Execution is through a more receptive follower. As expected, they naturally
develop lead by chest in favour of lead by arms.
Chris
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 16:23:21 -0800
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: Leading and following style
I hope we understand that "leading with arms" which I synonym to "steering
with arms" is not the same
as good tight connection and strong lead.
Connection can be tight more or less, but loose connection is somewhat
difficult for the fast or powerful dance.
I am often referred to as soft strong definite leader. And I am able to
dance powerful strong fast dance. And still it is soft. So if you'd like to
ask questions about it, I can tell you about my experience.
Strong lead has nothing to do with leading with arms or pushing around. It
is more about knowing what you do, confidence, and exploration of forces in
the body to achieve pleasure in moves and fast rotations. These forces not
necessarily have to be large. Of course, it works only with ladies who know
it, like it, and there are plenty of them.
Igor Polk.
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 19:55:58 EST
From: Bill King <Euroking@AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Leading and following style
In a message dated 3/15/2006 4:32:55 P.M. Pacific Standard Time,
ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM writes:
I hope we understand that "leading with arms" which I synonym to "steering
with arms" is not the same
as good tight connection and strong lead.
Connection can be tight more or less, but loose connection is somewhat
difficult for the fast or powerful dance.
I am often referred to as soft strong definite leader. And I am able to
dance powerful strong fast dance. And still it is soft. So if you'd like to
ask questions about it, I can tell you about my experience.
Strong lead has nothing to do with leading with arms or pushing around. It
is more about knowing what you do, confidence, and exploration of forces in
the body to achieve pleasure in moves and fast rotations. These forces not
necessarily have to be large. Of course, it works only with ladies who know
it, like it, and there are plenty of them.
Igor Polk.
REMINDER: Announcements of Tango events or products should be sent to
Tango-A and not to TANGO-L. To subscribe to Tango-A, send the
Igor,
Totally agree, a strong lead is not to be equated to a strong armed lead.
One is good there other is not. In my comments I was referring to the latter,
and even a bit more subtle that a 'strong' armed lead but more of the pushing
or maybe, put another way leading with the arm, i.e. moving the arm in the
direction you want the follow to go before your body moves, no matter how
subtle. That can be confusing at best and uncomfortable as a almost a rule. I say
almost because there are always exceptions.
I say that a beginner needs feedback whatever the environment, even if it is
whispered "hand" during a dance. Granted egos, et. al probably won't let
this work, but it does work for me, but for two reasons, one my teacher has
made me aware of the issue, and I have heard it in class and occasionally during
a milonga (less and less). I hear 'hand' and I adjust. It is a cue.
Teaching doesn't have to be Socratic to be effective and can be non-intrusive to the
others around you.
Thanks,
Bill
Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 17:28:31 -0800
From: Igor Polk <ipolk@VIRTUAR.COM>
Subject: Re: Leading and following style
Yet, I have to say that lead with arms is not bad per se.
As you have mentioned, Bill, there are exceptions.
There are only good lead and bad lead. With what you lead, it does not
really matter much. Someone can lead with a forehead, someone can lead with
a finger, and someone can lead with eyes, and someone leads with all
available means. As soon as partners understand each other and feel well, it
is good.
Hmmm... thank you for reminding..
I do not like putting any limitations on means to achieve a good dance. It
limits creativity.
But we have preferences. And we know that learning a good body lead is the
key to success.
I have to practice more on that.
Igor Polk
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 08:23:07 -0500
From: andrea <ako31@NYC.RR.COM>
Subject: Re: leading and following styles
marisa:
> We've got a joker in our community who appears all
> dressed up almost every week at a milonga. He took
> eight classes six or seven years ago, they tell me,
> and then said he figured he had gotten it...
> Unfortunately, this opinion was not correct. Since
> then he has received no instruction - unless he is
> working with a video at home, but I don't think I've
> seen any new moves in the last three or four years. ..
in nyc we have a guy who comes in red pants and construction boots,
wears his hair like albert einstein, and dances by himself.
we love him.
the folks at chelsea market honored him at the end of the last season.
i think its kind of a glass half empty, half full kind of thing.
he enjoys tango the way he desires. it reminds me of an experience i
had with a friend's overweight boyfriend. he clearly was in the over
200lb range at about 5'10". when we went to dinner one night, another
friend kept harping at him about what he was ordering and dropping
hints about diets etc - i felt outraged and later asked the boyfriend
why he didnt tell her to go stuff it. he said, "what u dont know about
me is that i was in the 300 lb range. i have come a long way by
accepting who i am and it doesnt really matter whether others do or
not. i am fine as i am now. i will not let anyone take away my pleasure
in my body or in eating."
as trini wrote:
> People want different things from tango, which may
> change over time.
which is fine by me. there is plenty of metaphoric room on the dance
floor for everyone. i dont let anyone take away my pleasure in dacning
w/o my permission. i also dont have any expectations or would even
think of imposing my way of enjoying it on anyone else. "who says
"(here i go again) there are any requirements to take lessons, change
ur steps, use arms or not?
> But brutal leaders, leaders who shoot around the floor
> disturbing the ronda, leaders who do "fancy" moves
> they don't really understand that are uncomfortable to
> experience, leaders who are so incompetent that they
> resort to verbal leads, leaders who have alienated so
> many competent followers that they have to prey on
> first-time attendees at the milonga those guys I am
> certain one should not dance with.
> There are two types of women who dance with this guy.
i have seen a third - women who have gotten dressed up and paid money
to get to and enter a milonga and sit there all nite because no other
man asks them to dance because they are: unknown and men ARE shy at
times, they are inexperienced, they are older, they are shy and
uncomfortable asking men to dance.
as a beginner i let them prey on me - i knew what was happening - but
there was no one else asking me to dance, and i needed to dance! i
still do not enjoy dancing with them and choose not to but i am
grateful to them today.
> I would argue that this guy is injuring the community
> as a whole (aside from whatever he is doing to the
> unwary individuals who gratify his ungodly desires).
> I think Melanie is right those of us who have a clue
> and still accept dances from guys like this are partly
> responsible for them coming back and for them
> weakening our communities.
i feel worried when i read this. i believe 'should' limitations,
expectations, projections, intolerance and control by a few are what
damage any community - diversity and difference strengthen it!
i am lucky to live in a city where even the wackiest are welcome - on
and off the dance floor.
andrea
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 07:24:09 -0800
From: Derik Rawson <rawsonweb@YAHOO.COM>
Subject: Re: leading and following styles
Dear Andrea:
Bravo! You are right. It is the diversity that makes
life interesting. The only people who damage the
community, if there are any people who actually think
that it can e affected, are the "should" people. They
need to work on improving themselves instead of
others.
Derik
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
--- andrea <ako31@NYC.RR.COM> wrote:
> marisa:
>
> > We've got a joker in our community who appears all
> > dressed up almost every week at a milonga. He
> took
> > eight classes six or seven years ago, they tell
> me,
> > and then said he figured he had gotten it...
> > Unfortunately, this opinion was not correct.
> Since
> > then he has received no instruction - unless he is
> > working with a video at home, but I don't think
> I've
> > seen any new moves in the last three or four
> years. ..
>
> in nyc we have a guy who comes in red pants and
> construction boots,
> wears his hair like albert einstein, and dances by
> himself.
>
> we love him.
>
> the folks at chelsea market honored him at the end
> of the last season.
>
> i think its kind of a glass half empty, half full
> kind of thing.
>
> he enjoys tango the way he desires. it reminds me of
> an experience i
> had with a friend's overweight boyfriend. he clearly
> was in the over
> 200lb range at about 5'10". when we went to dinner
> one night, another
> friend kept harping at him about what he was
> ordering and dropping
> hints about diets etc - i felt outraged and later
> asked the boyfriend
> why he didnt tell her to go stuff it. he said, "what
> u dont know about
> me is that i was in the 300 lb range. i have come a
> long way by
> accepting who i am and it doesnt really matter
> whether others do or
> not. i am fine as i am now. i will not let anyone
> take away my pleasure
> in my body or in eating."
>
> as trini wrote:
>
> > People want different things from tango, which may
> > change over time.
>
> which is fine by me. there is plenty of metaphoric
> room on the dance
> floor for everyone. i dont let anyone take away my
> pleasure in dacning
> w/o my permission. i also dont have any expectations
> or would even
> think of imposing my way of enjoying it on anyone
> else. "who says
> "(here i go again) there are any requirements to
> take lessons, change
> ur steps, use arms or not?
>
>
> > But brutal leaders, leaders who shoot around the
> floor
> > disturbing the ronda, leaders who do "fancy" moves
> > they don't really understand that are
> uncomfortable to
> > experience, leaders who are so incompetent that
> they
> > resort to verbal leads, leaders who have alienated
> so
> > many competent followers that they have to prey on
> > first-time attendees at the milonga those guys I
> am
> > certain one should not dance with.
>
>
> > There are two types of women who dance with this
> guy.
>
> i have seen a third - women who have gotten dressed
> up and paid money
> to get to and enter a milonga and sit there all nite
> because no other
> man asks them to dance because they are: unknown and
> men ARE shy at
> times, they are inexperienced, they are older, they
> are shy and
> uncomfortable asking men to dance.
>
> as a beginner i let them prey on me - i knew what
> was happening - but
> there was no one else asking me to dance, and i
> needed to dance! i
> still do not enjoy dancing with them and choose not
> to but i am
> grateful to them today.
>
> > I would argue that this guy is injuring the
> community
> > as a whole (aside from whatever he is doing to the
> > unwary individuals who gratify his ungodly
> desires).
> > I think Melanie is right those of us who have a
> clue
> > and still accept dances from guys like this are
> partly
> > responsible for them coming back and for them
> > weakening our communities.
>
> i feel worried when i read this. i believe 'should'
> limitations,
> expectations, projections, intolerance and control
> by a few are what
> damage any community - diversity and difference
> strengthen it!
>
> i am lucky to live in a city where even the wackiest
> are welcome - on
> and off the dance floor.
>
> andrea
>
>
Derik Rawson
d.rawson@rawsonweb.com
https://www.rawsonweb.com
713-522-0888 USA Landline Direct to Portable Cell Phone
281-754-4315 USA Landline Voice/Fax
d.rawson@cal.berkeley.edu
d.rawson@haas.alum.berkeley.edu
rawsonweb@yahoo.com
Europe/Asia
rawsonweb@compuserve.com
Paris, France
Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 15:33:00 +0000
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@CHRISJJ.COM>
Subject: Re: Leading and following style
Alexis wrote:
> > The main means of observation is by sight rather than feel,
> I would say that's part of the problem.
Me too. But we're in a minority. IME very few class instructors are
prepared to face this.
Many hereabouts have resolved this issue not by adapting their
teaching but by adapting the tango - to an embrace based on sight
rather than feel. They tell the girl to lock her sight on to the centre
of the guy's chest and the guy then uses chest signals to indicate
where she is to move.
For the class instructors this solves their big "beginners are put off
by intimate physical connection with strangers" problem. But as
you'd expect, the dance it creates is a grotesque perversion. Well,
to mainstream tango sensibilities, anyway. Though maybe Andrea's
NYC policy of tango tolerance stretches just far enough to include it! ;)
> there is no such thing as "leading with arms" as *opposed* to
> leading with the chest, because you can only lead from a
> *frame* that connects the arms and chest.
On that we disagree. For me, close embrace lead is not "from
a frame" that includes the arms.
> That's *bad* leading -- at least if you want to tango.
> If these people find it"effective", then the whoever has taught
> them has instilled the wrong sets of values in them
Bad/wrong for me too, but it must be good for someone,
else why is there so much of it around?
Chris
