4415 Leading with hands
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 11:51:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: "VIEJO.MILONGUERO" <viejo.milonguero@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
To: "Tango-L1 mit.edu" <tango-l@mit.edu>
I have read from time to time the posttings on the list but I had never written till now.
Jake is right.
There are many ways to lead in tango depending on the level and style you are dancing.
You can lead primarily with your chest as it is done in social, close embrace dancing but when you start learning more and you dance in open embrace, nuevo tango or on stage you use many other parts of your body to lead. This form of leading may be tought to the beginer or to any level of expertise tango dancer.
What you describe is "poor" leading, "pressing buttons", how absurd!.
I am talking about good tango dancers.
Naturally if all you do is to dance socially in close embrace: walking, doing an ocho here and there, a little turn and a sacada, yes I have to agree all you need is to lead with your torso.
It is when you go beyond that level of dancing that you are going to use your torso, your arms, your hands, your legs and more, to lead. This does not mean "pushing buttons" on any-body's back (that is not knowing how to dance) it means to lead properly in an unperceptible way, unperceptible to the follower and to the spectators.
Before some mentally retarded says if it is unperceptible how does she follow: I will say I meant "not obvious" but perceptible enough for her to be able to follow.
At this level the lead comes from many different parts of the body and not only from your torso.
So as I said before, do me and the rest of the list a great favor : when you talk about technique, specify "the way I dance I do this or that" and that will be fine but refrain to speak for the tango world as a whole, because it is wrong. There are many ways to dance A.Tango. It would do a lot of good to you and everybody else if you became conscious about the limitations of your knowledge.
I am 65 years old and have been dancing regularly since I was 14.
Viejo Milonguero
Buenos Aires
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 18:34:17 -0300
From: Deby Novitz <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Excuse Mr. Viejo Milonguero...could you please direct me to the
milongueros that lead with any hand left or right? I am afraid I missed
this somewhere...because all the milongueros I know, never lead with
their hands.
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 15:15:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
Hi Deby,
Sean here. I have heard women describe their experience
dancing with certain men as "I knew exactly what he wanted
me to do, but I don't know how I knew!" Have you ever had
that experience? If so, how do you know that the man wasn't
using his hands "in an unperceptible way, unperceptible to
the follower and to the spectators."
I try to make sure that my indications to the woman are
clear but not intrusive. I try to be subtle enough that she
may respond without concious effort, and not so subtle that
she has to concentrate to understand me. I use my arms and
hands when I need to, but not in a way that disrupts the
woman's dance.
Sean
--- Deby Novitz <dnovitz@lavidacondeby.com> wrote:
Excuse Mr. Viejo Milonguero...could you please direct me to
the milongueros that lead with any hand left or right? I
am afraid I missed this somewhere...because all the
milongueros I know, never lead with their hands.
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:39:37 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
> If so, how do you know that the man wasn't
> using his hands "in an unperceptible way, unperceptible to
> the follower and to the spectators."
The way you're communicating is through your connection,
and at least the leader's hand on the back of the woman
is merely an extension of the arm in that connection.
At least if you want to communicate clearly.
Less is more.
The more your arms and hands stay put
relative to your chest, the more clear it is to lead
"desde el alma". The more you're going to try to use
your hands as autonomous agents, the more you'll hide
your current position, orientation and intent to your
partner, and that's exactly what you *don't* want.
And believe me, even when the follower catches your drift,
decoupling your hands from the rest of your body will also be
making the timing of the movement of *her* body be
dependent of the movement of your hands and not your body,
too, making it well nigh impossible to move together in
perfect harmony.
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Solutions Architect/Senior Systems Engineer SGI
--
Bad grammar makes me [sic].
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 22:14:49 -0400
From: "Neil Liveakos" <neil.liveakos@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
<737e9d3f0606261914vacef24eo181a470a9e34483f@mail.gmail.com>
The milongueros I see in Bs As lead with everything; All of their body
including their hands.
Gracias,
Neil
On 6/26/06, Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com> wrote:
>
> Trini y Sean (PATangoS) wrote:
> > If so, how do you know that the man wasn't
> > using his hands "in an unperceptible way, unperceptible to
> > the follower and to the spectators."
>
> The way you're communicating is through your connection,
> and at least the leader's hand on the back of the woman
> is merely an extension of the arm in that connection.
> At least if you want to communicate clearly.
>
> Less is more.
>
> The more your arms and hands stay put
> relative to your chest, the more clear it is to lead
> "desde el alma". The more you're going to try to use
> your hands as autonomous agents, the more you'll hide
> your current position, orientation and intent to your
> partner, and that's exactly what you *don't* want.
>
> And believe me, even when the follower catches your drift,
> decoupling your hands from the rest of your body will also be
> making the timing of the movement of *her* body be
> dependent of the movement of your hands and not your body,
> too, making it well nigh impossible to move together in
> perfect harmony.
>
> --
> Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
> Solutions Architect/Senior Systems Engineer SGI
> --
> Bad grammar makes me [sic].
>
--
Neil Liveakos
https://milonga.us
Date: Mon, 26 Jun 2006 21:50:16 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
Hi all,
A former instructor here would teach his students to press
on the woman?s back to create ochos. Found out about it
when the women would bring their boyfriends who were
studying with him to our practica so I could "fix" them.
The guys just thought their girlfriends (some former
students of ours) wanted to socialize with me and didn't
realize the real reason. Women would ask Sean to teach a
class at a practica their boyfriends and practice partners
attended on how not to be so brutal.
Had a student who, after visiting a milonga, asked me if it
was normal for a woman to rub her back after doing boleos.
Something he had scene at several milongas, actually. I
was shocked that he could even consider that a possibility.
Get enough women complaining and things will change.
Bottom line is that it is the women who determine if the
lead is appropriate or not. Some women like that strong
lead. These are probably the same ones who don?t work on
their tango. Or they are not exposed enough to good
dancers. Or tango is just a bunch of steps to them.
Trini de Pittsburgh
PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 05:11:19 +0000
From: "Jay Rabe" <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
My 2-cents:
"Leading with the hands/arms" is a complicated concept. You can try to
simplify it by thinking only in terms of the most rough-handling boor
pushing you around, but that hardly captures the continuum of gentle
subtleties that are possible.
An exercise often used to practice close-embrace is to dance with no arm
contact at all - just chest contact. If you haven't tried it, I suggest you
do so. You'll find it very challenging. The conclusion seems inescapable
that, even in those leaders who profess and strive (we'll assume
successfully) to lead with their chest/torso, there is still a subtle
contribution from the hands and arms.
J in Portland
www.TangoMoments.com
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 00:12:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
Hi Jay,
It depends on the woman's ability to follow as much as the
man's ability to lead. The exercise is even more telling in
open embrace. I can lead Trini in salon open embrace
without any body contact at all. Of course, she has to keep
her eyes open. But even very subtle things can be
indicated, such as to extend her leg without a weight
transfer (for a planeo), or to transfer the weight without
closing her legs (to allow me to complete 2 sacadas - one
with each foot). Of course, shared and out of axis things
won't work, but your basic social moves like walking,
ochos, boleos and molinetes are easy if you do them well in
an embrace. Add in the salon toys like sacadas, lapices,
enrosques, drags and ganchos, and you can really impress
the woman shakers. (Milonguero code for guys who lead
noticeably with their arms.) Counter turns are a lot more
dificult, and milonguero style musicality is probably
impossible.
Trini and I use this exercise mainly to practice, but every
once in a while we will dance a tanda this way at a
milonga. Especially when it is too hot.
Sean
--- Jay Rabe <jayrabe@hotmail.com> wrote:
An exercise often used to practice close-embrace is to
dance with no arm contact at all - just chest contact. If
you haven't tried it, I suggest you do so. You'll find it
very challenging. The conclusion seems inescapable that,
even in those leaders who profess and strive (we'll assume
successfully) to lead with their chest/torso, there is
still a subtle contribution from the hands and arms.
J in Portland
www.TangoMoments.com
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:09 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading with hands... and even legs
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
OK, some dancers report that good social dancers do not lead with their
hands, others report that they do.
But look, the "don't" reports come from people who have felt it. Whereas
the "do" reports come from people who have seen it, e.g.
> The milongueros I see in Bs As lead with everything; All of their body
Perhaps this is because, as in all of tango, you cannot tell what is really
happening by sight. And the only one who really can tell /how/ the guy is
leading is the girl who is feeling it.
Why are there class teachers saying "lead with hands"? Well, notice these
are ones who teach by sight, not feel.
But the girls are saying they don't like it. Because it does not feel good.
Guys, what is more important to us: giving the girls what they want, or
giving the girls what a teacher wants?
.
Then there's the advice of Viejo Milonguero who yesterday demanded
> when you talk about technique, specify "the way I dance I do this or that"
> and that will be fine but refrain to speak for the tango world as a whole,
> because it is wrong.
but today specifies how we should dance, as follows:
> It is when you go beyond that level of dancing that you are going to use
> your torso, your arms, your hands, your legs and more, to lead."
Wow. Does anyone here have experience of being lead by the /legs/?
How did you avoid falling over? Was it in some kind of nuevo tango which,
turning tradition upside down, has the couple embrace with their legs so
that they can dance on their hands? <smile>
Chris
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 20:19:46 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands... and even legs
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> > It is when you go beyond that level of dancing that you are going to use
> > your torso, your arms, your hands, your legs and more, to lead."
>
> Wow. Does anyone here have experience of being lead by the /legs/?
>
You forgot sacadas (the leg is part of it) and barridas (using the foot and
the leg)
There is also a very special kind of walk a few men apply, where they hold
the woman close, lead her straight ahead while kind of "walking into her"
while draping her vertically over their thighs. Sort of a full body contact
walk of the four legged monster, and yes, it feels as sensuous as it sounds.
The legs are part of the lead.
Then you have the fantasia move, (no idea what it is called but you see it
on almost every picture of a fantasia teacher) where the woman does what
some German teachers call a "tiramisu", meaning, she raises her left knee
and runs her foot up the man's leg and wraps it around- or it can be started
by catching her leg in a sacada during a turn so that it runs up his thigh
naturally,
then he steps back with that leg while not letting her move, so she is
stretched out in that position.
Leg leads are sort of where the "bad boy style" starts in tango dancing, and
my Argentine friend told me there is one more move that will in most cases
have the woman slap you unless you know her very well..
But I will leave that up to our new Viejo Milonguero or whoever to explain.
; )
Astrid
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 13:32 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands... and even legs
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
> Does anyone here have experience of being lead by the /legs/?
>
> You forgot sacadas (the leg is part of it) and barridas (using the foot
> and the leg)
That's "leading"? Surely me pushing her foot is... just me pushing her foot.
And if she pushes mine back, is she leading? No. She's just pushing mine
back.
> Then you have the fantasia move where the woman does what
> some German teachers call a "tiramisu", meaning, she raises her left knee
> and runs her foot up the man's leg and wraps it around
> then he steps back with that leg while not letting her move,
Um, where's the leg lead in that?
Chris
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 15:06:00 +0200
From: Alexis Cousein <al@sgi.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands... and even legs
To: tl2@chrisjj.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Chris, UK wrote:
> OK, some dancers report that good social dancers do not lead with their
> hands, others report that they do.
>
> But look, the "don't" reports come from people who have felt it. Whereas
> the "do" reports come from people who have seen it, e.g.
>
There's also some semantic confusion. Obviously, when you don't
have chest contact, your arms and hands are engaged in leading
because they're your points of contact. Leading from the chest
through telepathic means isn't a very successful method.
That isn't "leading with the hand or arm", though - that arm
or hand forms part of a frame that has some rigidity, i.e.
doesn't move of its own accord, but merely by the way it
is connected to you (and your chest).
The "leading with the hand" that is frowned upon is trying to
dissociate the hand and arm from the rest of your body and
doing something with them (trying to force the follower to move)
that is *independent* of the movement of the leader himself,
when there is absolutely no need for it.
In some moves, the leader and follower change their relative
position (and doing so is excrutiatingly difficult to get
absolutely right).
And there you could say that the arms
do "lead" something of their own, which is precisely how much
room the follower gets to fill, and the angle she's expected
to have with respect to the follower (you can "close" or "open"
the side connection at the right of the leader/left of the
follower, and the leader does that by changing the way *his*
arms are positioned with respect to his body).
But it still is never the "hand" that moves
independently, but *both* arms that change their position
with respect to the leader's chest in a very precise way -
your arms are still very much connected to the rest of
your body.
In other words, hands and arms only lead by the space they
leave to the follower, as a natural extension of the rest
of the leader's body - they *NEVER* independently try to move
the follower on their own.
--
Alexis Cousein al@sgi.com
Solutions Architect/Senior Systems Engineer SGI
--
Bad grammar makes me [sic].
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 20:20:51 -0400
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands... and even legs
Cc: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
There are messages on top of messages so I can't figure out who wrote below my name.
Legs are NOT part of the lead for sacadas. While the woman is doing a molinete, the man is touching her foot. The man lead a molinete and does an adornment. I give one example. I lead the woman in an front ocho to my left. After she pivots on her left foot, she steps forward into a molinete on her right foot. I step forward towards her free (left) foot and make contact for a sacada. My leg had NOTHING to do with leading the sacada, just like my leg has NOTHING to do with leading a barridas. I'll sweep the woman's foot on the side step after her back step. I'm leading the woman to step sideways with my torso, NOT the foot.
Now for this special walk, if I'm interpreting it correctly. As I lead the woman to step backwards on her right foot, I step forward on my left. As I lead her step back on her left, instead of stepping forward in front of her left foot, I wrap my right foot around her (free) right foot. I have to bring my foot down to her ankle so as she puts weight onto that foot, it will pop out of the caress. I don't lead it with my foot. I have to get her to move onto her left foot with my torso so I can wrap her right foot. There is NO leading with my feet.
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
Drying out from the rain
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
Somebody wrote:
> Wow. Does anyone here have experience of being lead by the /legs/?
You forgot sacadas (the leg is part of it) and barridas (using the foot and the leg)
There is also a very special kind of walk a few men apply, where they hold the woman close, lead her straight ahead while kind of "walking into her" while draping her vertically over their thighs. Sort of a full body contact walk of the four legged monster, and yes, it feels as sensuous as it sounds. The legs are part of the lead.
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:46:59 -0300
From: "Christopher L. Everett" <ceverett@ceverett.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands... and even legs
To: tl2@chrisjj.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Chris, UK wrote:
> OK, some dancers report that good social dancers do not lead with their
> hands, others report that they do.
>
> But look, the "don't" reports come from people who have felt it. Whereas
> the "do" reports come from people who have seen it, e.g.
>
Except for the Nuevo Tango practicas, there's no place in BsAs where
I've seen
anyone dancing open. I have plenty of time, as I'm taking mostly
privates and
just a few classes, so I'm willing to investigate any and all reports of
milongas
where everyone (or a majority) there dances open embrace.
I've been to a few barrio milongas like El Baldosa in Flores, and most
of the
tourist milongas in Palermo, Centro and San Telmo.
>> The milongueros I see in Bs As lead with everything; All of their body
>>
>
> Perhaps this is because, as in all of tango, you cannot tell what is really
> happening by sight. And the only one who really can tell /how/ the guy is
> leading is the girl who is feeling it.
>
> Why are there class teachers saying "lead with hands"? Well, notice these
> are ones who teach by sight, not feel.
>
> But the girls are saying they don't like it. Because it does not feel good.
>
> Guys, what is more important to us: giving the girls what they want, or
> giving the girls what a teacher wants?
>
>
people dance open and lead with their hands because they have bad
posture or
they've been taught wrong. As the people teaching me here say, posture
is a
thing that describes the wholeness of you stand and move, and reflects
one's
balance and awareness of their axis--it's not a static thing.
If you see a good woman dancer following a man in open embrace here,
they are
protecting themselves from the man's lack of balance and axis. There are no
shortcuts--your awareness of your axis is your frame of reference for your
partner axis.
Finally, the "milonguero" style vs. "salon" style is a distinction
without much
of a difference. Milonguero style has a slightly different embrace, and
uses
smaller length steps.
> Then there's the advice of Viejo Milonguero who yesterday demanded
>
>
>> when you talk about technique, specify "the way I dance I do this or that"
>> and that will be fine but refrain to speak for the tango world as a whole,
>> because it is wrong.
>>
>
> but today specifies how we should dance, as follows:
>
>
>> It is when you go beyond that level of dancing that you are going to use
>> your torso, your arms, your hands, your legs and more, to lead."
>>
Yeah, I want to know, who's doing this considered by all as a good dancer?
By the way, the quality of demonstrations I've seen has left me
disappointed.
Anyone can do a demonstration at a milonga. I should see if they will let
me do a demonstration, it's been so crappy.
> Wow. Does anyone here have experience of being lead by the /legs/?
>
> How did you avoid falling over? Was it in some kind of nuevo tango which,
> turning tradition upside down, has the couple embrace with their legs so
> that they can dance on their hands? <smile>
>
> Chris
>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:39:40 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands... and even legs
Cc: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
>
> Now for this special walk, if I'm interpreting it correctly. As I lead the
woman to step backwards on her right foot, I step forward on my left. As I
lead her step back on her left, instead of stepping forward in front of her
left foot, I wrap my right foot around her (free) right foot. I have to
bring my foot down to her ankle so as she puts weight onto that foot, it
will pop out of the caress. I don't lead it with my foot. I have to get her
to move onto her left foot with my torso so I can wrap her right foot. There
is NO leading with my feet.
Your explanation in itself shows that this is no walk but a wrap, Michael.
I said, he "drapes", he does not wrap. They touch frontally while they walk.
>
>
> Somebody wrote:
> > Wow. Does anyone here have experience of being lead by the /legs/?
>
> You forgot sacadas (the leg is part of it) and barridas (using the foot
and the leg)
>
> There is also a very special kind of walk a few men apply, where they hold
the woman close, lead her straight ahead while kind of "walking into her"
while draping her vertically over their thighs. Sort of a full body contact
walk of the four legged monster, and yes, it feels as sensuous as it sounds.
The legs are part of the lead.
>
Date: Tue, 27 Jun 2006 21:39:38 -0700
From: "Jonathan Thornton" <obscurebardo@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands... and even legs
To: tl2@chrisjj.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<f9247e8a0606272139t48f28653od1f308f2f3a93f5e@mail.gmail.com>
I think it was the second work shop I took with Daniel Trenner whem he was
introducing the concept of leading and following with playful exercises and
he mentioned there were even "hair leads". I woke up when I heard that but
was utterly mystified having no clue what he was talking about.
Some years later I took a class in contact improvisation (and note that
Daniel had originally gone to Argentina to teach contact improv) and now I
know what hair leads are!
So yeah when two people are tuned into each other there are many dimensions
of leading and following. Social dance tends to focus on the areas of
challenging technique I think but it can go way beyond that.
Jonathan Thornton
On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 12:09 +0100 (BST), Chris, UK <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:
>
> OK, some dancers report that good social dancers do not lead with their
> hands, others report that they do.
>
> But look, the "don't" reports come from people who have felt it. Whereas
> the "do" reports come from people who have seen it, e.g.
>
> > The milongueros I see in Bs As lead with everything; All of their body
>
> Perhaps this is because, as in all of tango, you cannot tell what is
> really
> happening by sight. And the only one who really can tell /how/ the guy is
> leading is the girl who is feeling it.
>
> Why are there class teachers saying "lead with hands"? Well, notice these
> are ones who teach by sight, not feel.
>
> But the girls are saying they don't like it. Because it does not feel
> good.
>
> Guys, what is more important to us: giving the girls what they want, or
> giving the girls what a teacher wants?
>
> .
>
> Then there's the advice of Viejo Milonguero who yesterday demanded
>
> > when you talk about technique, specify "the way I dance I do this or
> that"
> > and that will be fine but refrain to speak for the tango world as a
> whole,
> > because it is wrong.
>
> but today specifies how we should dance, as follows:
>
> > It is when you go beyond that level of dancing that you are going to use
> > your torso, your arms, your hands, your legs and more, to lead."
>
> Wow. Does anyone here have experience of being lead by the /legs/?
>
> How did you avoid falling over? Was it in some kind of nuevo tango which,
> turning tradition upside down, has the couple embrace with their legs so
> that they can dance on their hands? <smile>
>
> Chris
>
--
"The tango can be debated, and we have debates over it,
but it still encloses, as does all that which is truthful, a secret."
Jorge Luis Borges
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 07:04:58 -0400
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands... and even legs
Cc: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Astrid:
Then I don't know the difference between "drapes" and "wraps."
Michael
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
----- Original Message -----
From: astrid
Cc: Michael
Sent: Tuesday, June 27, 2006 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands... and even legs
>
> Now for this special walk, if I'm interpreting it correctly. As I lead the
woman to step backwards on her right foot, I step forward on my left. As I
lead her step back on her left, instead of stepping forward in front of her
left foot, I wrap my right foot around her (free) right foot. I have to
bring my foot down to her ankle so as she puts weight onto that foot, it
will pop out of the caress. I don't lead it with my foot. I have to get her
to move onto her left foot with my torso so I can wrap her right foot. There
is NO leading with my feet.
Your explanation in itself shows that this is no walk but a wrap, Michael.
I said, he "drapes", he does not wrap. They touch frontally while they walk.
>
>
> Somebody wrote:
> > Wow. Does anyone here have experience of being lead by the /legs/?
>
> You forgot sacadas (the leg is part of it) and barridas (using the foot
and the leg)
>
> There is also a very special kind of walk a few men apply, where they hold
the woman close, lead her straight ahead while kind of "walking into her"
while draping her vertically over their thighs. Sort of a full body contact
walk of the four legged monster, and yes, it feels as sensuous as it sounds.
The legs are part of the lead.
Date: Thu, 29 Jun 2006 00:01:42 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands... and even legs
Cc: <tango-l@mit.edu>
>
> So yeah when two people are tuned into each other there are many
dimensions
> of leading and following. Social dance tends to focus on the areas of
> challenging technique I think but it can go way beyond that.
hair leads, eh?
That might be more a more interesting to discuss than more about hands and
arms and legs...
Astrid
>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 11:32:48 -0400
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading with hands... and even legs
To: tango-l@mit.edu
"Some years later I took a class in contact improvisation (and note that
Daniel had originally gone to Argentina to teach contact improv) and now I
know what hair leads are!"
Well, do illuminate us! Can't believe you would mention hair leads and then
leave me hanging - come on, what is it?
Caroline
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 04:04:25 -1200
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands... and even legs
To: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Astrid wrote:
> hair leads, eh?
> That might be more a more interesting to discuss than more
> about hands and arms and legs...
>
> Astrid
But what happens if you have a bad hair day? I am somewhat
follicle challenged.
Michael
Washington, DC
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:57:58 +0000
From: "Jay Rabe" <jayrabe@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands... and even legs
To: tango-l@mit.edu
I remember a workshop with Metin Yazir a few years ago in Portland. He was
demonstrating a step with a woman student, and she was inexperienced and
unsure of what he wanted her to do. He had opened to lead her to take a fwd
ocho to his left, but she just stood there. He looked at her and raised his
eyebrows, questioning, and she got the point and made the step. So you can
add "eyebrow leads" to the list. :-)
J in Portland
www.TangoMoments.com
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 10:10:07 -0700
From: "Jonathan Thornton" <obscurebardo@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands... and even legs
To: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
<f9247e8a0606281010v3915ffdfx4cbf7dc0aca7547@mail.gmail.com>
Caroline,
As you are the third person to email me on this point I'll go into a little
more detail though I long ago discovered the list is not particularly suited
to these sorts of discussions.
A hair lead is not a specific lead. As I now understand what Daniel Trenner
was hinting at was that he was indicating that there is more involved in the
interaction between partners than simply giving a formal "lead" with a
formal response. Rather the partners are attending to one another and
processing information through all their sensory channels. By "hair lead" he
was referring to the information that the movement either seen or more often
felt adds to knowing the intention and movement of the partner. It is not a
system, not formal, and yet there are subtlies of the dance partnering that
are outside the formal system.
One person stated to me privately that this obfuscated the definition of
lead. I think that is true only for some people who think more in terms of
formal systems. For other people Daniel's noting that leading/following
involves awareness of intention from multiple sensory channels might turn on
a light and expand the possibilities. I will say it was a passing remark he
made. He didn't make any attempt to teach it. It was only when I took
contact improvisation that I understood and began to appreciate where he was
coming from with that startling comment.
In a contact improv class one spends a lot of time experiencing these things
not talking about them. I don't want to struggle with a purely verbal
explication of something that is so entirely sensory motor. I just wanted to
make the point that leading and following can involve many components of the
sensory motor system, or as in the case of called dances only one, the
verbal instruction of the caller.
Jonathan Thornton
On 6/28/06, Caroline Polack <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> "Some years later I took a class in contact improvisation (and note that
> Daniel had originally gone to Argentina to teach contact improv) and now I
> know what hair leads are!"
>
> Well, do illuminate us! Can't believe you would mention hair leads and
> then
> leave me hanging - come on, what is it?
>
> Caroline
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
"The tango can be debated, and we have debates over it,
but it still encloses, as does all that which is truthful, a secret."
Jorge Luis Borges
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:58:11 -0400
From: "Caroline Polack" <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands... and even legs
To: obscurebardo@gmail.com
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
Hi Jonathan,
I get what you are saying. I really do for reaons esoteric to me.
Caroline,
As you are the third person to email me on this point I'll go into a little
more detail though I long ago discovered the list is not particularly suited
to these sorts of discussions.
A hair lead is not a specific lead. As I now understand what Daniel Trenner
was hinting at was that he was indicating that there is more involved in the
interaction between partners than simply giving a formal "lead" with a
formal response. Rather the partners are attending to one another and
processing information through all their sensory channels. By "hair lead" he
was referring to the information that the movement either seen or more often
felt adds to knowing the intention and movement of the partner. It is not a
system, not formal, and yet there are subtlies of the dance partnering that
are outside the formal system.
One person stated to me privately that this obfuscated the definition of
lead. I think that is true only for some people who think more in terms of
formal systems. For other people Daniel's noting that leading/following
involves awareness of intention from multiple sensory channels might turn on
a light and expand the possibilities. I will say it was a passing remark he
made. He didn't make any attempt to teach it. It was only when I took
contact improvisation that I understood and began to appreciate where he was
coming from with that startling comment.
In a contact improv class one spends a lot of time experiencing these things
not talking about them. I don't want to struggle with a purely verbal
explication of something that is so entirely sensory motor. I just wanted to
make the point that leading and following can involve many components of the
sensory motor system, or as in the case of called dances only one, the
verbal instruction of the caller.
Jonathan Thornton
On 6/28/06, Caroline Polack <runcarolinerun@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>"Some years later I took a class in contact improvisation (and note that
>Daniel had originally gone to Argentina to teach contact improv) and now I
>know what hair leads are!"
>
>Well, do illuminate us! Can't believe you would mention hair leads and
>then
>leave me hanging - come on, what is it?
>
>Caroline
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
--
"The tango can be debated, and we have debates over it,
but it still encloses, as does all that which is truthful, a secret."
Jorge Luis Borges
Lending Features https://spring.finance.sympatico.msn.ca/
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 18:17:28 +0000
From: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
To: tango-l@mit.edu
When discussing any aspect of tango dancing technique (LEADING FOR INSTANCE)
is convenient to clarify what style one is talking about.
This is important because the technique varies with the style and also with
the individual dancer.
In this context it is totally absurd to say "leading with the hands is
wrong" because although you may not lead that way there are excellent and
well know dancers that do it.
There is a world of difference between talking about somebody who uses his
hands to lead and is a poor dancer and somebody who is an excellent dancer.
The only great dancer that I know that used his fingers on the back of the
woman to lead was Victor Ayos. I met Monica and Victor in Mar del Plata
after their show at the Jockey Club Confiteria in 1992.
I asked them if they could teach me some tango choreography. He said: " we
will be happy to do it but only for a week as we leave for our tour in Japan
and the Middle East next Monday.
I met with both of them every day for several hours for the entire week. On
the next big show they had (Saturday) I was included and had an entire
number with Monica.
Victor is well known as a dancer and as a choreographer (I know several
stage dancers that took instruction from him) yet he used his fingers on the
back of Monica to lead some confusing moves during the show.
Should I say that Victor was wrong and the ones on this list criticizing
hand lead are right?
No, They both are right, each person leads as he was taught and as it is
needed by the type of tango that he does.
Leading with hands:
Let's say I walk the lady to the cross to do a "paradita de la mujer" (a
stop of the woman).
1 -She is at the cross her lt. foot locked in front of her rt. foot. I place
my Lt. foot by her Lt. and with my right arm and hand I lower her position
so that she will extend her right leg to her right side.
2 -When I lead a boleo (back flick) I use the same move to lower her
position so that she does a "low boleo" or I express an intention upwards
with my rt. hand and arm on her back to indicate a "High boleo".
In these cases the same as in leading a planeo of the woman there is a
definite lowering intention of the rt. arm and hand although they do not
move from where they were placed on her back. This is aided by a lowering of
the torso as well.
3 - When I walk backwards and she does it forward I "lift" (express an
upwards intention) my rt. hand and arm on her back to make her lock one foot
behind the other. This could be repetitive single or double timed.
When I dance milonga I induce a run of double time steps to one side or the
other by "lifting" my right arm and hand on her back. The arm and hand do
not move from where they were placed they show an "upward intention".
Something like what was described by Jonathan Thornton.
We practice leading without arm contact as well. We do many other exercises
that develop the ability to tune the dancers into each other too.
In summary hands can and are used in leading as well as legs and other parts
of the body.
This is not only true in tango but in ballroom dancing as well.
Have a good day, Sergio
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 15:41:26 -0400
From: "TangoDC.com" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
To: tango-L@mit.edu
To reinforce Sergio's point, we might examine what happens during the
calecita, a move no leader (none beyond the beginner level, at least)
can claim to be ignorant of.
We lead the follower's rotation with our torsos. That's the fundamental
part. We also relax our embrace (whether it's close or open) so we don't
pull the follower off-axis. That is: we leave our arms with her,
modifying the frame as we move around her.
Now, you could say this is leading with the arms or else its opposite,
depending on how you wish to describe it. But the main point stands: the
arms can be integrated into the lead-- not as autonomous agents, but as
agents in harmony with the torso (and partner)-- in order to clarify the
lead, make things easier for the follower, and ensure good form and good
dancing.
Keeping the frame firm, as beginners are taught (this is at a
*preliminary* stage of dancing, mind you), will usually knock the
follower off-axis in this case. And in this case, we would have no other
way to describe this "torso-only" lead than to call it an example of bad
arm-leading. Or an "insensitive" frame.
Keeping the frame firm, while doing a few other things, of course, may
lead a volcada.
In any case, there is no absolute, right-and-wrong when it comes to
technique; there is only success and misuse in context. Technique in
tango, as in all arts, is a layered phenomenon, as I'm getting tired of
pointing out. It is also circumstantial, which is why those of us
defending torso-plus leading are naming moves and describing situations
in which advanced techniques are appropriate, efficient, and
comfortable. Certainly there are bad dancers out there, who lead with
their limbs *instead* of their center, but if we based our discussion of
technique on them, we'd have nothing to discuss.
There is probably a spectacular place for everything, if only we can
create it.
Jake Spatz
Washington, DC
Sergio Vandekier wrote:
> When discussing any aspect of tango dancing technique (LEADING FOR
> INSTANCE) is convenient to clarify what style one is talking about.
>
> This is important because the technique varies with the style and also
> with the individual dancer.
>
> In this context it is totally absurd to say "leading with the hands is
> wrong" because although you may not lead that way there are excellent
> and well know dancers that do it.
>
> There is a world of difference between talking about somebody who uses
> his hands to lead and is a poor dancer and somebody who is an
> excellent dancer.
>
> The only great dancer that I know that used his fingers on the back of
> the woman to lead was Victor Ayos. I met Monica and Victor in Mar del
> Plata after their show at the Jockey Club Confiteria in 1992.
> I asked them if they could teach me some tango choreography. He said:
> " we will be happy to do it but only for a week as we leave for our
> tour in Japan and the Middle East next Monday.
>
> I met with both of them every day for several hours for the entire
> week. On the next big show they had (Saturday) I was included and had
> an entire number with Monica.
>
> Victor is well known as a dancer and as a choreographer (I know
> several stage dancers that took instruction from him) yet he used his
> fingers on the back of Monica to lead some confusing moves during the
> show.
>
> Should I say that Victor was wrong and the ones on this list
> criticizing hand lead are right?
>
> No, They both are right, each person leads as he was taught and as it
> is needed by the type of tango that he does.
>
> Leading with hands:
>
> Let's say I walk the lady to the cross to do a "paradita de la mujer"
> (a stop of the woman).
>
> 1 -She is at the cross her lt. foot locked in front of her rt. foot. I
> place my Lt. foot by her Lt. and with my right arm and hand I lower
> her position so that she will extend her right leg to her right side.
>
> 2 -When I lead a boleo (back flick) I use the same move to lower her
> position so that she does a "low boleo" or I express an intention
> upwards with my rt. hand and arm on her back to indicate a "High boleo".
>
> In these cases the same as in leading a planeo of the woman there is a
> definite lowering intention of the rt. arm and hand although they do
> not move from where they were placed on her back. This is aided by a
> lowering of the torso as well.
>
> 3 - When I walk backwards and she does it forward I "lift" (express an
> upwards intention) my rt. hand and arm on her back to make her lock
> one foot behind the other. This could be repetitive single or double
> timed.
>
> When I dance milonga I induce a run of double time steps to one side
> or the other by "lifting" my right arm and hand on her back. The arm
> and hand do not move from where they were placed they show an "upward
> intention". Something like what was described by Jonathan Thornton.
>
> We practice leading without arm contact as well. We do many other
> exercises that develop the ability to tune the dancers into each other
> too.
>
> In summary hands can and are used in leading as well as legs and other
> parts of the body.
> This is not only true in tango but in ballroom dancing as well.
>
> Have a good day, Sergio
>
>
>
>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 13:08:56 -0700
From: "Igor Polk" <ipolk@virtuar.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands... and even legs
To: <tango-l@mit.edu>
Sometime, with good partners, I make the following experiments.
I try to lead with the certain parts. I direct my whole attention to a part
and imagine the lead is pouring out of that part, and other parts are
transmitting it, supporting it.
I have tried it with the center of the chest, with the side of the chest,
the left hand ( her right ) in multiple positions, the right hand on her
back ( in at least a dozen of different places), the right forearm ( which
is under her shoulder), the shoulder ( where she holds me with her left
hand ), my upper back where she rests her left hand, the forehead, the
cheek, a thigh, the belly ( if we attached there ).
It all feels different and if it is done good, it is good. Would you like to
try?
I believe one can easy find out what arms and hands are for dancing without
them. Of course, you can dance without them, but they are here for purpose!
The dancing embrace is asymmetrical. And this is for purpose also.
Igor.
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:12 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Sergio Vandekier/Viejo Milonguero wrote:
> The only great dancer that I know that used his fingers on the back of the
> woman to lead was ... [X] well known as a dancer and as a choreographer
> (I know several stage dancers that took instruction from him) yet he
> used his fingers on the back of [Y] to lead
> Should I say that [X] was wrong and the ones on this list criticizing
> hand lead are right?
No, you should ask his girl. Did she enjoy him using his fingers on her back?
Then perhaps we can work out which of the following characteristics
contributes to "great dancer". The three you identified:
a) well-known as a dancer
b) well-known as a choreographer
c) gives instruction to several stage dancers
and/or:
d) gives girls enjoyable dances.
Chris
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 16:22:12 -0400
From: rtara <rtara@maine.rr.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
I studied with Juan Bruno in the early '90's. I was tickled to discover that
he gave a little 'flick' with his hand to lead. He didn't teach it (or maybe
Daniel Trenner's translation protected us from this little trick). The thing
is, he didn't need to use it. His lead was perfect. What a delight he was.
Robin
Tara Design, Inc.
www.taratangoshoes.com
Toll Free in US: 1-877-906-8272
18 Stillman St.
So. Portland ME 04106
207-741-2992--
> From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
> Reply-To: <tl2@chrisjj.com>
> Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:12 +0100 (BST)
> Cc: <tl2@chrisjj.com>
> Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
>
> Sergio Vandekier/Viejo Milonguero wrote:
>
>> The only great dancer that I know that used his fingers on the back of the
>> woman to lead was ... [X] well known as a dancer and as a choreographer
>> (I know several stage dancers that took instruction from him) yet he
>> used his fingers on the back of [Y] to lead
>
>> Should I say that [X] was wrong and the ones on this list criticizing
>> hand lead are right?
>
> No, you should ask his girl. Did she enjoy him using his fingers on her back?
>
> Then perhaps we can work out which of the following characteristics
> contributes to "great dancer". The three you identified:
>
> a) well-known as a dancer
> b) well-known as a choreographer
> c) gives instruction to several stage dancers
>
> and/or:
>
> d) gives girls enjoyable dances.
>
> Chris
>
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 21:44 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com
Robin wrote:
> he gave a little 'flick' with his hand to lead.
> The thing is, he didn't need to use it. His lead was perfect.
Excellent point - it was not at all an attempt to "control" the girl's legs.
Contrast that with the type of "leading with hands" being discussed:
Sergio/Viejo wrote
Then you place your hand on her back and explain to the beginner
tango dancers that the right part of her back controls her Rt. leg and
that the Lt. part of her body controls her Lt. one. Then you proceed
to how the correct lead of a front ocho. You touch the lady's rt. side
of her back with the fingers of your right hand [etc. etc.]
Chris
Date: Wed, 28 Jun 2006 19:33:18 -0400
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] Leading with hands
To: "Sergio Vandekier" <sergiovandekier990@hotmail.com>,
<tango-l@mit.edu>
Cc: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Sergio wrote:
Victor is well known as a dancer and as a choreographer (I know several
stage dancers that took instruction from him) yet he used his fingers on the
back of Monica to lead some confusing moves during the show.
I think the key words are "during the show." I don't dance show tango so I wouldn't use my fingers.
Leading with hands:
Let's say I walk the lady to the cross to do a "paradita de la mujer" (a
stop of the woman).
1 -She is at the cross her lt. foot locked in front of her rt. foot. I place
my Lt. foot by her Lt. and with my right arm and hand I lower her position
so that she will extend her right leg to her right side.
2 -When I lead a boleo (back flick) I use the same move to lower her
position so that she does a "low boleo" or I express an intention upwards
with my rt. hand and arm on her back to indicate a "High boleo".
In these cases the same as in leading a planeo of the woman there is a
definite lowering intention of the rt. arm and hand although they do not
move from where they were placed on her back. This is aided by a lowering of
the torso as well.
The key words are "This is aided by a lowering of the torso as well." The arms aren't moving independently of the frame. Leading with hands implies, IMHO, that the hands are not connected to the leader's frame.
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
