4207  The leads left arm--elboe down

Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 07:36:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: burl burl <burlq7@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Tango-L] The leads left arm--elboe down
To: Tango-L@MIT.EDU


I have a constant fight with my left arm. I just want it to stay put and it either creeps up at the shoulder or starts thrusting my partner into a back ocho.

A friend of mine pointed out that if I hold my hand so that the palm faces backward I will do two things naturally--my elboe will drop and I will be far last temped to shove my partner "back-handed" since there is far less power when pushing in this way.

I see some leaders (here in New York) who have this left hand curled with the back of the hand facing up (I think there is some famous guy who does this too) but this seems to raise the elboe to near right angles with the shoulder which encourages my other bad habit--the slow hunching up of the shoulders in a Frankenstein effect.

Another respected dancer tells me that I need to think of surrounding my partner (the giant beachball lecture) and so the hand has to have the inside plam-side toward her (ie tangent to the surface of the theoretical beach ball).

Another respected dancer tells me that I can't have my hand turned away from my parnter because my left hand, while it excerts very little preasure, needs to be available if my partner decides she needs it (I guess if she trips or finds my lead difficult to detect). His idea is that while it may be good for my posture to have the hand either curled up in the air, or facing back it is selfish--and in the long run bad for my lead.

Yet another unrespected dancer here, tells me that it is nearly impossible to dance Tango Nuevo without using a swing dance hold (ie palm up with the thumb over the womans' back hand).

I am working on the quiet tango--very close, no noisy moves. So it is all about style and I would appreciate any comments you might have on the left hand.

Yours
Burleigh


Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.

Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 16:09 +0100 (BST)
From: "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The leads left arm--elboe down
Cc: tl2@chrisjj.com

Burleigh wrote:

> A friend of mine pointed out that if I hold my hand so ...

> Another respected dancer tells me the hand
> has to have the inside plam-side toward ...

> Another respected dancer tells me that I can't have my
> hand turned away from my parnter because ...

> Yet another unrespected dancer here, tells me that it is
> nearly impossible to ...

Phew!

The one to listen to is... your own dancing.

Dance without using that hand or arm at all. When that's really working,
gently bring the hand back in to the embrace and you'll find it knows
the right place to be.

Even if that place is different every time, every girl.

Chris

Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 11:48:00 -0400
From: "Stephane Fymat" <stephane_fymat@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The leads left arm--elboe down
<200605031545.k43FjpAl026313@pacific-carrier-annex.mit.edu>

Burleigh,

Solving your left arm movement problem has nothing to do with how you hold
your palm, it has to do with how you hold and move your body and how you
lead. If you initiate all of your movements - walking, giros, ochos, etc. -
from the center of your body (chest or solar plexus, depending on your
teacher), then the arms will stay quiet. The arms are an extension (and
expression) of your body's movements, not movements on their own.

If you want to dance a quiet, close tango, you can find the right embrace as
follows. Stand in front of your partner, toes to toes, both on your own
axis, arms to your side. Embrace each other with both arms, as if in a hug.
Open up your left arm with hand at eye height, have her put her right hand
in yours. Done.

Your left arm/her right arm should be relaxed but relatively firm. This is
very tricky to do, as most people tense up. Think of how you hold a big
glass of beer, it's heavy, but you hold it up without tension in your arm.
Same idea.

As a way of checking your left arm movement, do this. Let your right arm
circle around her at shoulder height. Wrap around her back enough that your
fingers touch the back of her right shoulder. As you dance, if you feel her
shoulder/arm moving, that means that you have moved your left arm. Try the
move/step/walk again until her arm doesn't move at all. FYI, this is an
exercise, not an embrace for you to learn.

Quieting down your dance, e.g. your left arm, is a process of incremental
improvement over time. Step by step. It can take years.

Once you have the body movement part down and your left arm quiet, how you
hold your arm and hand becomes a matter of personal choice. The rule
becomes what feels comfortable for you and the woman, and also looks good to
the eye.

Nuevo tango has much more freedom of movement in the arms, but the question
again is where does the movement originate, the body or the arms? I know
teachers who teach both ways. I personally believe in starting from the
body, and allowing the arms to adapt to the nature of the movement.

The famous person you are referring to is Gavito. By the way, he never
taught that to students. He taught a more regular embrace, albeit a little
higher than most. That is the difference between technique, e.g. the normal
embrace, and style, how Gavito adapted his embrace for himself. And, be
careful, there is an illusion in his embrace. It appears as if he is
breaking the woman's wrist and that she is uncomfortable. However, it only
appears that way if you think he is applying any pressure onto her hand. He
didn't.

Stephane
-----Original Message-----

Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2006 10:36 AM
Subject: [Tango-L] The leads left arm--elboe down


I have a constant fight with my left arm. I just want it to stay put and it
either creeps up at the shoulder or starts thrusting my partner into a back
ocho.

A friend of mine pointed out that if I hold my hand so that the palm faces
backward I will do two things naturally--my elboe will drop and I will be
far last temped to shove my partner "back-handed" since there is far less
power when pushing in this way.

I see some leaders (here in New York) who have this left hand curled with
the back of the hand facing up (I think there is some famous guy who does
this too) but this seems to raise the elboe to near right angles with the
shoulder which encourages my other bad habit--the slow hunching up of the
shoulders in a Frankenstein effect.

Another respected dancer tells me that I need to think of surrounding my
partner (the giant beachball lecture) and so the hand has to have the inside
plam-side toward her (ie tangent to the surface of the theoretical beach
ball).

Another respected dancer tells me that I can't have my hand turned away
from my parnter because my left hand, while it excerts very little preasure,
needs to be available if my partner decides she needs it (I guess if she
trips or finds my lead difficult to detect). His idea is that while it may
be good for my posture to have the hand either curled up in the air, or
facing back it is selfish--and in the long run bad for my lead.

Yet another unrespected dancer here, tells me that it is nearly impossible
to dance Tango Nuevo without using a swing dance hold (ie palm up with the
thumb over the womans' back hand).

I am working on the quiet tango--very close, no noisy moves. So it is all
about style and I would appreciate any comments you might have on the left
hand.

Yours
Burleigh


Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.

Date: Wed, 03 May 2006 04:03:28 -1200
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The leads left arm--elboe down
Cc: tangomaniac@cavtel.net

> I have a constant fight with my left arm. I just want it
> to stay put and it either creeps up at the shoulder or
> starts thrusting my partner into a back ocho.
>

Burleigh
Burleigh:
I sometimes have the same problem. I extend my left hand
horizontally palm up so that the woman puts her right hand
out horizontally and her palm on top of mine. This ensures
our elbows are down so there isn't any pushing.

I "invented" a practice method to make my left arm part of
my frame so that it moved when my shoulders moved. I put a
broomstick behind my head on my shoulders and put my arms
around the broom. Now, when I rotated my shoulders, my arms
moved with the shoulders.

The problem sometimes returns when I'm trying intricate
figures (back sacada) so it's not permanently solved.

Hope this helps.

Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC

Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 10:09:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The leads left arm--elboe down

Hi Burleigh,

Here's something I have worked on with my Alexander
Technique teacher that might help. I find that the
inability to rotate the radial (lower arm bone)
separately from the upper arm can lead to lifting the
shoulder (jutting it out), pushing the partner, and
other assorted bad things. The need to rotate the
radial comes in forming the embrace so that the man's
palm faces toward him and the woman's palm can face
away. Women can have the same problem, as well, with
their right arm.

Try sitting comfortably with your arms resting palm up
on a table. Elbows are bent, so that your upper arms
just hand down. Try rotating your thumb (one arm at a
time) completely so that your hand faces flat on the
table. Check to see if you are engaging you upper arm
muscles or shoulders. If you are, then practice doing
the rotation while keeping the upper arm muscles
relaxed. You should feel a strong spiraling all the
way up the elbow and see the muscles spiraling. This
may help keep your arm quieter.

Hope this helps,
Trini de Pittsburgh


--- burl burl <burlq7@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> I have a constant fight with my left arm. I just
> want it to stay put and it either creeps up at the
> shoulder or starts thrusting my partner into a back
> ocho.
>
> A friend of mine pointed out that if I hold my
> hand so that the palm faces backward I will do two
> things naturally--my elboe will drop and I will be
> far last temped to shove my partner "back-handed"
> since there is far less power when pushing in this
> way.
>
> I see some leaders (here in New York) who have
> this left hand curled with the back of the hand
> facing up (I think there is some famous guy who does
> this too) but this seems to raise the elboe to near
> right angles with the shoulder which encourages my
> other bad habit--the slow hunching up of the
> shoulders in a Frankenstein effect.
>
> Another respected dancer tells me that I need to
> think of surrounding my partner (the giant beachball
> lecture) and so the hand has to have the inside
> plam-side toward her (ie tangent to the surface of
> the theoretical beach ball).
>
> Another respected dancer tells me that I can't
> have my hand turned away from my parnter because my
> left hand, while it excerts very little preasure,
> needs to be available if my partner decides she
> needs it (I guess if she trips or finds my lead
> difficult to detect). His idea is that while it may
> be good for my posture to have the hand either
> curled up in the air, or facing back it is
> selfish--and in the long run bad for my lead.
>
> Yet another unrespected dancer here, tells me that
> it is nearly impossible to dance Tango Nuevo without
> using a swing dance hold (ie palm up with the thumb
> over the womans' back hand).
>
> I am working on the quiet tango--very close, no
> noisy moves. So it is all about style and I would
> appreciate any comments you might have on the left
> hand.
>
> Yours
> Burleigh
>
>
> Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for
> ridiculously low rates.
>

PATangoS - Pittsburgh Argentine Tango Society
Our Mission: To make Argentine Tango Pittsburgh's most popular social dance.
https://www.pitt.edu/~mcph/PATangoWeb.htm

Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 10:42:12 -0700 (PDT)
From: Michael Figart II <michaelfigart@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The leads left arm--elboe down
To: tango-l@mit.edu

Hi Burl,

You've already received some great advice. I
especially like practicing a lot without that arm at
all. Just relax it at your side, or put your hand in
your pocket like Gavito.

But maybe this will help also....upper arm always
pretty firm, and out in front, just a tad (2 inches,
about, ahead of exactly lateral), forearm soft, but
ready to firm up if needed, kinda like spongy
hydraulics. And...imagine a line coming straight out
of left palm pointing to the other side of the
embrace's main contact point (your right upper
arm/side of follower).

Good luck, and kudos on the search for "quiet tango"!!

(Ladies, please don't grip thumb!)

Regards,

Michael

--- burl burl <burlq7@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> I have a constant fight with my left arm. I just
> want it to stay put and it either creeps up at the
> shoulder or starts thrusting my partner into a back
> ocho.
>
> A friend of mine pointed out that if I hold my
> hand so that the palm faces backward I will do two
> things naturally--my elboe will drop and I will be
> far last temped to shove my partner "back-handed"
> since there is far less power when pushing in this
> way.
>
> I see some leaders (here in New York) who have
> this left hand curled with the back of the hand
> facing up (I think there is some famous guy who does
> this too) but this seems to raise the elboe to near
> right angles with the shoulder which encourages my
> other bad habit--the slow hunching up of the
> shoulders in a Frankenstein effect.
>
> Another respected dancer tells me that I need to
> think of surrounding my partner (the giant beachball
> lecture) and so the hand has to have the inside
> plam-side toward her (ie tangent to the surface of
> the theoretical beach ball).
>
> Another respected dancer tells me that I can't
> have my hand turned away from my parnter because my
> left hand, while it excerts very little preasure,
> needs to be available if my partner decides she
> needs it (I guess if she trips or finds my lead
> difficult to detect). His idea is that while it may
> be good for my posture to have the hand either
> curled up in the air, or facing back it is
> selfish--and in the long run bad for my lead.
>
> Yet another unrespected dancer here, tells me that
> it is nearly impossible to dance Tango Nuevo without
> using a swing dance hold (ie palm up with the thumb
> over the womans' back hand).
>
> I am working on the quiet tango--very close, no
> noisy moves. So it is all about style and I would
> appreciate any comments you might have on the left
> hand.
>
> Yours
> Burleigh
>
>
> Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for
> ridiculously low rates.
>

Date: Wed, 3 May 2006 13:03:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Trini y Sean \(PATangoS\)" <patangos@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The leads left arm--elboe down

Hi Chris,

This is good advice. You sound like a teacher! ;)
Welcome to the dark side...(fade out with heavy
Vaderesque breathing)

Sean

P.S. May the farce be with you.

--- "Chris, UK" <tl2@chrisjj.com> wrote:

Dance without using that hand or arm at all. When
that's really working, gently bring the hand back in
to the embrace and you'll find it knows the right
place to be.

Date: Thu, 4 May 2006 14:20:10 +0900
From: "astrid" <astrid@ruby.plala.or.jp>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] The leads left arm--elboe down
To: "Michael Figart II" <michaelfigart@yahoo.com>, <tango-l@mit.edu>

>
> Good luck, and kudos on the search for "quiet tango"!!
>
> (Ladies, please don't grip thumb!)
>
> Regards,
>
> Michael
>

Speaking of which: can somone explain why some people have such problems
achieving a normal handhold? You know, those men who connect with the
woman's hand in a really odd way, like, thumb sticking up, or 2 of her
fingers resting between his thumb and forefinger, the others in some state
of disconnection, or simply just one's hand wrapped around one or two
fingers of the other.