5207 A man's feminine side: masculinity in tango!
Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 21:46:57 -0400
From: "Michael" <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
Subject: [Tango-L] A man's feminine side: masculinity in tango!
To: "Tango L" <Tango-L@Mit.Edu>
Cc: Michael <tangomaniac@cavtel.net>
I've read plenty on the above subject and there seems to be complaints about a man being feminine or his feminine side showing. The problem seems to be that a man has to be a man. I guess a man has to dance like he's John Wayne!
I paint stereotypes of the genders. A woman is weak because she publicly shows her feelings and a man is strong because he shows no emotion. The epitome of a man is an injured football player who tells the coach "Put me in the game, coach! Only one kidney is injured. I carry an extra in reserve." If a man was to show an emotion, OMG, it would kill him. That's because many confuse weakness with softness.
Thanks to 3 years of yoga therapy, I was able to let go of a lot of personal baggage that held me back from dancing-- and enjoying life. My teacher, Joe, told me "before we can embrace others we have to embrace ourselves." To me, connection and chemistry are always more important than figures.
Based on an informal, random survey of women in Denver and Washington years ago, women want connection and to feel special. The "physical" part, figures, was much less important. Men seem to concentrate inordinately on figures. If they can't execute it, it's a sign of "weak" manhood.
I think this is the crux of the point about masculinity in tango. Masculinity concentrates on figures and femininity concentrates on emotions. But for a man to show emotion, he has to feel emotion. If feeling emotion is seen as feminine, well, what man wants to feel he's less of man because of his "femininity." I've been lucky to sometimes feel my heartbeat, sometimes the woman's heartbeat. I remember dancing with Natasha in Florida. I dance close embrace. She taught me closer embrace. Figures meant nothing. I didn't want to do anything to break the embrace.
I guess there is NO tango in Lake Wobegone, MN
where all the women are strong
all the men are good looking
all the children are above average
My favorite milonguero expression is:
4 legs
2 bodies
1 heart
To dance tango is one thing. To feel tango is another. And to EXPERIENCE tango, words just can't describe it.
Michael Ditkoff
Washington, DC
I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 01:28:18 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] A man's feminine side: masculinity in tango!
Michael,
Sorry, but I disagree with almost everything you say.
You say ... The problem seems to be that a man has to be a man. Why is that a problem?
About the injured football player - yes he's being a man, not a whimpering cissy. As for emotion - every great athlete plays with emotion.
Whether he shows it or not is irrelevent. But I can assure you that all his team-mates can feel it and are inspired by it.
You say ... To me, connection and chemistry are always more important than figures. OK, we agree. But you then go on to say ...
Masculinity concentrates on figures. I don't agree. To me, making the embrace and the connection is the epitome of masculinity. And, as
with the athlete, whether or not the man shows emotion while dancing is irrelevent. What is important is whether or not his partner can
feel it. Personally, I dislike it when men display emotion while dancing - why? - because it looks feminine and it often looks phoney. But
because a man doesn't show emotion doesn't mean he doesn't feel it or that his partner doesn't feel it.
And yes, I also love to feel a woman's heartbeat while dancing - that's Tango, and when you hold a woman that close you're definitely
being a man.
Keith, HK
PS - Michael, if you mention your 3 years of yoga therapy one more time, I swear I'm gonna scream!
On Tue Oct 2 9:46 , "Michael" sent:
>I've read plenty on the above subject and there seems to be complaints about a man being feminine or his feminine side showing. The
problem seems to be that a man has to be a man. I guess a man has to dance like he's John Wayne!
>
>I paint stereotypes of the genders. A woman is weak because she publicly shows her feelings and a man is strong because he shows no
emotion. The epitome of a man is an injured football player who tells the coach "Put me in the game, coach! Only one kidney is injured. I
carry an extra in reserve." If a man was to show an emotion, OMG, it would kill him. That's because many confuse weakness with softness.
>
>Thanks to 3 years of yoga therapy, I was able to let go of a lot of personal baggage that held me back from dancing-- and enjoying life.
My teacher, Joe, told me "before we can embrace others we have to embrace ourselves." To me, connection and chemistry are always more
important than figures.
>
>Based on an informal, random survey of women in Denver and Washington years ago, women want connection and to feel special.
The "physical" part, figures, was much less important. Men seem to concentrate inordinately on figures. If they can't execute it, it's a
sign of "weak" manhood.
>
>I think this is the crux of the point about masculinity in tango. Masculinity concentrates on figures and femininity concentrates on
emotions. But for a man to show emotion, he has to feel emotion. If feeling emotion is seen as feminine, well, what man wants to feel he's
less of man because of his "femininity." I've been lucky to sometimes feel my heartbeat, sometimes the woman's heartbeat. I remember
dancing with Natasha in Florida. I dance close embrace. She taught me closer embrace. Figures meant nothing. I didn't want to do anything
to break the embrace.
>
>I guess there is NO tango in Lake Wobegone, MN
> where all the women are strong
> all the men are good looking
> all the children are above average
>
>My favorite milonguero expression is:
> 4 legs
> 2 bodies
> 1 heart
>
>To dance tango is one thing. To feel tango is another. And to EXPERIENCE tango, words just can't describe it.
>
>Michael Ditkoff
>Washington, DC
>I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 02:28:02 -0400
From: Keith <keith@tangohk.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] A man's feminine side: masculinity in tango!
Just so there's no misunderstanding, which seems to be common on Tango-L, I'd like to change a part of para. 4 to ...
And, as with the athlete, whether or not the man shows emotion while dancing is irrelevent. What is important is whether or not he and his
partner can feel it.
Keith, HK
On Tue Oct 2 13:28 , Keith sent:
>Michael,
>
>Sorry, but I disagree with almost everything you say.
>
>You say ... The problem seems to be that a man has to be a man. Why is that a problem?
>
>About the injured football player - yes he's being a man, not a whimpering cissy. As for emotion - every great athlete plays with
emotion.
>Whether he shows it or not is irrelevent. But I can assure you that all his team-mates can feel it and are inspired by it.
>
>You say ... To me, connection and chemistry are always more important than figures. OK, we agree. But you then go on to say ...
>Masculinity concentrates on figures. I don't agree. To me, making the embrace and the connection is the epitome of masculinity. And, as
>with the athlete, whether or not the man shows emotion while dancing is irrelevent. What is important is whether or not his partner can
>feel it. Personally, I dislike it when men display emotion while dancing - why? - because it looks feminine and it often looks phoney.
But
>because a man doesn't show emotion doesn't mean he doesn't feel it or that his partner doesn't feel it.
>
>And yes, I also love to feel a woman's heartbeat while dancing - that's Tango, and when you hold a woman that close you're definitely
>being a man.
>
>Keith, HK
>
>PS - Michael, if you mention your 3 years of yoga therapy one more time, I swear I'm gonna scream!
>
>
>On Tue Oct 2 9:46 , "Michael" sent:
>
>>I've read plenty on the above subject and there seems to be complaints about a man being feminine or his feminine side showing. The
>problem seems to be that a man has to be a man. I guess a man has to dance like he's John Wayne!
>>
>>I paint stereotypes of the genders. A woman is weak because she publicly shows her feelings and a man is strong because he shows no
>emotion. The epitome of a man is an injured football player who tells the coach "Put me in the game, coach! Only one kidney is injured. I
>carry an extra in reserve." If a man was to show an emotion, OMG, it would kill him. That's because many confuse weakness with softness.
>>
>>Thanks to 3 years of yoga therapy, I was able to let go of a lot of personal baggage that held me back from dancing-- and enjoying life.
>My teacher, Joe, told me "before we can embrace others we have to embrace ourselves." To me, connection and chemistry are always more
>important than figures.
>>
>>Based on an informal, random survey of women in Denver and Washington years ago, women want connection and to feel special.
>The "physical" part, figures, was much less important. Men seem to concentrate inordinately on figures. If they can't execute it, it's a
>sign of "weak" manhood.
>>
>>I think this is the crux of the point about masculinity in tango. Masculinity concentrates on figures and femininity concentrates on
>emotions. But for a man to show emotion, he has to feel emotion. If feeling emotion is seen as feminine, well, what man wants to feel
he's
>less of man because of his "femininity." I've been lucky to sometimes feel my heartbeat, sometimes the woman's heartbeat. I remember
>dancing with Natasha in Florida. I dance close embrace. She taught me closer embrace. Figures meant nothing. I didn't want to do anything
>to break the embrace.
>>
>>I guess there is NO tango in Lake Wobegone, MN
>> where all the women are strong
>> all the men are good looking
>> all the children are above average
>>
>>My favorite milonguero expression is:
>> 4 legs
>> 2 bodies
>> 1 heart
>>
>>To dance tango is one thing. To feel tango is another. And to EXPERIENCE tango, words just can't describe it.
>>
>>Michael Ditkoff
>>Washington, DC
>>I'd rather be dancing Argentine Tango
>
>
>
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 10:13:14 -0500
From: Jeff <jjg@jqhome.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] A man's feminine side: masculinity in tango!
To: tango-l@mit.edu
Michael wrote:
> I've read plenty on the above subject and there seems to be complaints about a man being feminine or his feminine side showing. The problem seems to be that a man has to be a man. I guess a man has to dance like he's John Wayne!
>
> I paint stereotypes of the genders. A woman is weak because she publicly shows her feelings and a man is strong because he shows no emotion.
?! I don't think so. Men don't show emotion because usually when
confronted with a predator that is a sign of vulnerability. Don't think
so? Go find a junkyard dog and whimper when it growls at you. This is
basic mammalian behavior. That you (and a lot of people) are unfamiliar
with it simply supports my contention that we live in an artificial
enough environment that it is really no longer an issue. Or is it?
More to the point emotions are largely choices (except in cases of
pathologies, i.e. emotional problems). Having the discipline not to
follow them at times is, I admit, a sign of strength. The stereotype we
should battle is not of the man who can't engage his feelings, but the
hysterical woman who is unable to function because of them. (Again this
is a stereotype from the Victorian era and one that doesn't apply to
other cultures. Let me tell you about my AK-47 toting Iranian friend in
her burqa sometime.) So lemma see, we have Shakespeares, Beethovens and
at least a few other guys who are anything but emotional cripples. You
would have to work darn hard to convince me that any of the big tango
bands (run by men) are free of emotion. Heck, that's what got me
interested in tango is that raw quality. I would tender that the issue
for men is that they feel emotions very keenly and must, with their
native urges to violence, learn to keep them in check. The scandalously
high murder and assault rates among males (and sadly, now females) are
due in part to a vilification of self-control. No enraged ex-boyfriend
needs to "get in touch with his feelings", he needs to cool down and get
a grip. This is what set the ethos for male behavior in times past.
So in tango -- and here I go trying to hop back on the topic -- I posit
that what the aim is, is for a male to be passionate at the same he is
firmly and coolly in control. It is this tension I think women would
find more interesting (and is most likely more like the milieu in which
tango used to be done). Some soppy, mawkish and excessive dancing might
impress some women, but from what I've seen it is most likely
ego-stroking for the guy to show how authentic he is.
Oh, I *never* have had anyone question my masculinity. I suspect that
the original comment from Igor was someone taking a dig at him or
possibly assuming that tango was just a subset of ballroom.
> The epitome of a man is an injured football player who tells the coach "Put me in the game, coach! Only one kidney is injured. I carry an extra in reserve."
As an athlete -- and a damn good one -- that fatuous example is simply
wrong. One of my charges who acts like that would get a stern lecture
>from me all the way to the first aid station. Oh and I *do* know pro
football players. They are a huge investment for their franchise and are
very, very carefully tended. You don't cough up a million bucks a year
for one and expect them to act like a moron.
> If a man was to show an emotion, OMG, it would kill him. That's because many confuse weakness with softness.
>
Nope. I show emotion all the time. I just refuse to let the bad ones
control me.
> Thanks to 3 years of yoga therapy,
*Oh boy* yoga "therapy". Geez...
<snip/>
> Men seem to concentrate inordinately on figures. If they can't execute it, it's a sign of "weak" manhood.
A quote from Bruce Lee is in order here: "A lack of understanding leads
to embellishment." Yes, people (that includes women) who only do figures
or furiously embellish everything normally are substituting that for a
good understanding of the dance. Where the art lies -- and I could be
wrong -- is in what the absolute minimum you need is. I've danced with
more than my share of women that were I call ochOmatics, i.e., no matter
what I did they did some sort of ocho. It was not possible to do
anything expressive with them on the floor.
Date: Tue, 02 Oct 2007 12:43:22 -0400
From: "Jake Spatz (TangoDC.com)" <spatz@tangoDC.com>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] A man's feminine side: masculinity in tango!
To: tango-L@mit.edu
To hop in, briefly:
Jeff wrote:
> Men don't show emotion because usually when confronted with a predator that is a sign of vulnerability.
1. Man is a predator.
2. Courage is an emotion.
> So lemma see, we have Shakespeares, Beethovens and at least a few other guys who are anything but emotional cripples.
>
We also have the entire Mediterranean basin, for starters. :-)
> So in tango -- and here I go trying to hop back on the topic -- I posit that what the aim is, is for a male to be passionate at the same he is firmly and coolly in control.
I think this whole issue could be cleared up by allowing American men to
have male (rather than female) emotions.
> I suspect that the original comment from Igor was someone taking a dig at him or possibly assuming that tango was just a subset of ballroom.
>
On the contrary, Igor was asking for counsel on behalf of his students
and new male dancers in general.
In my opinion, if one (as a teacher) is going to broach the topic of
what's masculine and what's feminine, one should be able to embody the
one and inspire the other-- or mock both of them-- or etc. To raise the
topic and remain incapable of illustrating it isn't fair to students.
Teachers should stick to what they can successfully embody in their own
person, because a major part of what a teacher does is serve as a role
model.
Igor in particular might want to avoid the topic verbally for a while,
and just show the men what (and how) a man (a gentleman) IS, while
addressing less thorny topics. Or else use satire.
Jake
DC
Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 11:28:59 -0400
From: Carol Shepherd <arborlaw@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Tango-L] A man's feminine side: masculinity in tango!
To: Jeff <jjg@jqhome.net>
Cc: tango-l@mit.edu
> wrong -- is in what the absolute minimum you need is. I've danced with
> more than my share of women that were I call ochOmatics, i.e., no matter
> what I did they did some sort of ocho. It was not possible to do
> anything expressive with them on the floor.
>
"ochomatics" -- love it!!! :)
Being an ochomatic ('ochomatica' is even better) isn't innate -- it is
usually learned. So, it can be un-learned. A lot of times the plane is
circling in a holding pattern, waiting to taxi somewhere -- anywhere.
Sounds like a project for our many illustrious teachers to help clean up.
--
Carol Ruth Shepherd
Arborlaw PLC
Ann Arbor MI USA
734 668 4646 v 734 786 1241 f
Arborlaw - a legal blog for entrepreneurs and small business
https://arborlaw.com
